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Subject: Debate forum...yes, really.....
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"Whatever exists, whatever in creation exists without my knowledge exists without my consent. These anonymous creatures may seem little or nothing in the world. Yet the smallest crumb can devour us. Any smallest thing beneath yon rock out of men's knowing. Only nature can enslave man and only when the existence of each last entity is routed out and made to stand naked before him will he be properly suzerain of the earth."

Posted by: CNC MadDogg
So rather than be part of the problem, I will leave it at that and go try and start a new one.


But then we have less fun here. And I want more fun.

Posted by: elmicker
I refer you to my comment on boring one sided circle jerks.

Groups provide a different environment than the public forums, one which is unfortunately, almost always 1-sided and reclusive, but tha's just the nature of the beast.


And it sucks too. I keep driving away all of my members. I’m glad there’s one guy who is willing to hang out and provide another side. Otherwise I would have to start doing it, and that’s so hard.

Posted by: necare
debates go one of two ways on this forum - they degenerate into a flame war (public forums) or they escalate into who can use the most complex words to make themselves sound smarter (most groups). If you find a place that has a discussion without ending up like either of these two, let me know :-)


I’m not going to devote my life to such a search, but if I happen to come upon such an anomaly I’ll give you a call.

Posted by: Savag3Shadow
Now, on to my next point.
Just the fact that we are debating about a debate forum proves the feasability of it's existance. So, those of you who don't want a debate forum are in fact helping along it's chances by debating about it. To add to that, if you don't oppose it, then it will look like all the members want one. So, what we have here is a classic Catch-22. You support a debate forum if you argue against it, but if you don't argue against it, you are still supporting it.

XD


I find two holes in that argument:

1) We are not exactly the best example of the member base. It might be a bit akin to trying to take a poll of general knowledge, but only asking college professors. In order to know whether a debate forum is feasible or not, you have to have this debate occur in every forum. That way you get a sample of the general population.

2) If members don’t oppose it, they like it…Which means that an idea that receives no replies must be the greatest idea, because 100% of the members who made a vote voted for it.

But on to the actual point of the thread itself.

A forum devoted to debate can only become one of three things. The first two necare has already mentioned. The third is that it will become a revolution of the same topics. Hot topics, I’m thinking the ones mostly on the religious and political side, will be the only topics being debated, because someone has two cents they wish to put in, or a debate is never settled, which just makes it a perpetual topic. We could try to make threads, but they’d just get pushed down by all of the other topics. And since I’m sure there are plenty of people who want to discuss politics and religion on the main forums, it could be as chaotic as the Halo 3 Forum. Sure, in groups you tend to have more one-sided debates (with the one or two people who insist on hanging about in order to provide an opposing view), but at least you can follow them. A good debate, in my view, needs to be slow-paced, where the participants have plenty of time to consider the opponent’s point(s), deliberate, and form their counter-point(s). With a debate forum, by the time you’ve read your opponent’s point(s), you potentially have another three to consider from other posters.

Multi-point debates are long and confusing. It is best to avoid them whenever possible. Therefore, I vote nay.

  • 02.15.2007 4:41 PM PDT
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Posted by: Mabian
I vote nay.

Seconded. Anyone wanna debate the issue further?

  • 02.15.2007 5:24 PM PDT

Sandswept Studios Design Director

Visit us and check out our games at Sandswept.net!

~~Pardon Our Dust.~~

What? "The Debate Group" doesn't suffice?

The Black Chapter seems to be really good with that.. Quite active, I might add.

  • 02.15.2007 5:30 PM PDT
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Eugh. don't get me started on the black chapter. That's probably the biggest circle jerk of the lot. Just starts out with something innocuous, but ends up as "CHRISTIANS MUST BURNZZ!!". It's almost as bad as Body Politic, which just ends up with pages and pages of people replying with 19 different quote boxes and using one-line straw men in which they try to cram as many long words as they can in, scoring extra bonus points if those long words are in latin.

/rant.

  • 02.15.2007 5:37 PM PDT
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Posted by: elmicker
if those long words are in latin.

Post hoc, ergo propter hoc.

Solum potestis prohibere ignes sil varum.


/me is win.

[Edited on 2/15/2007]

  • 02.15.2007 5:44 PM PDT
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Posted by: elmicker
/rant.

Next time, put that first, so I know to skip reading your post.

The only use for a debating forum would be to remove debating from the Flood. The Flood probably wouldn't like that.

Hey, someone tell the Flood debating there is getting banned.
*watches light show*
Oooh, purty.

[Edited on 2/15/2007]

  • 02.15.2007 5:44 PM PDT
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Posted by: dalmedya
Posted by: Mabian
I vote nay.

Seconded. Anyone wanna debate the issue further?


I agree that there is no need for a debate forum. If you want to debate form or join a private group.

  • 02.15.2007 7:13 PM PDT

I see what you are saying, and it would certainly be applicable--if I established myself as a staunch supporter of a debate forum, which I have not. If you think that the only things people would debate in a debate forum are politics, religion and abortion, thats great, but that's also your opinion, just because you think something is going to happen doesn't mean it will. For instance, if there were to be a debate forum, I would create a topic that debated the merits of self-sacrifice for the good of someone or something else. The last time I checked, that was philosophy.

I say all of that to say this: you missed my point. I wasn't arguing either way for the debate forum, I simply pointed out that no matter what you do in this thread, you advocate it.
To go back to your original point, I would like for you to tell me how my logic is flawed. Again, I neither advocate nor disapprove of a debate forum, so you making an argument against me for that purpose is futile and pointless.

And to the guy who said he saw two points in my argument, the first one isn't a hole, and the as for the second I have this to say. You can still reply to something in support of it, so a 100% supported thread can have reply's. Also, if you are trying to get a debate forum started, the best evidence that it is merited is to have debate in that thread.


Posted by: Sir Cumference
Posted by: Savag3Shadow
It's not false logic, it's logic. Period. The topic of converstation here (the original post) was whether or not we should have a forum dedicated to debate. Debate does not necessarily emcompass only abortion and politics. Debate is debate. About anything, even debate about debate.
So my friend, I did not even address the issue of pro-life vs. pro-choice debate, and one could even say that you are trying to bring that debate into this discussion-where it does not belong.
I am fully aware (as I'm sure everyone else here is) that there is no rule against debate, but we are simply debating whether or not to have a forum dedicated purely to debate.

You missed my point. A debate forum would encourage people to discuss topics that are not allowed on the public forums. If you wish to debate a subject that is allowed you can already do so in the appropriate forum. Why would we need a separate forum? The only reason I could think of is to discuss those issues that are not even allowed in the Flood. That's why I brought up politics/religion/abortion, not to hijack the thread.

So I guess my questions would be, what would be discussed in the debate forum? Would you have a separate set of rules for this forum? If not why is it even needed/what's preventing us from already debating topics in the current forums? As you have pointed out we're obviously able to do so already.

  • 02.15.2007 7:28 PM PDT

Wait...has this thread become a debate on whether or not to have a forum for debating? If we don't have a spot on B.net for debating; Yet we are in fact debating, and we are all still debating on that fact, then why is there a debate in the first place?


*head asplodes into infinity*

[Edited on 2/15/2007]

  • 02.15.2007 8:18 PM PDT
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"Whatever exists, whatever in creation exists without my knowledge exists without my consent. These anonymous creatures may seem little or nothing in the world. Yet the smallest crumb can devour us. Any smallest thing beneath yon rock out of men's knowing. Only nature can enslave man and only when the existence of each last entity is routed out and made to stand naked before him will he be properly suzerain of the earth."

Posted by: Savag3Shadow
And to the guy who said he saw two points in my argument, the first one isn't a hole, and the as for the second I have this to say. You can still reply to something in support of it, so a 100% supported thread can have reply's. Also, if you are trying to get a debate forum started, the best evidence that it is merited is to have debate in that thread.


A flaw, then? Either way, stating that because the members of the Septagon can carry on a civilized debate means that the entire community can handle a debate forum is not exactly right. Using the Septagon, which is, if I remember correctly, rather small compared to many other forums, and a forum that tends to comprise of members much different from your average member, is, as I said before, might be like using a bunch of college professors to measure the amount of general knowledge in a country. You need a debate about non-Halo topics to occur in forums like the Flood, and New Mombasa, and perhaps the Halo 3 Forum. At least, if you want a proper survey. Or you could try bringing them all here.

Of course, if everyone who replies also supports an idea, it is supported 100%, by your logic. However, that would make the assumption that those who don't reply agree, but see no reason to post. Therefore, an idea that receives no replies would be just as supported as if everyone posted their support of the idea.

Doesn't the debate in this thread simply mean that we, the people who have replied to this thread, can handle a debate forum?

  • 02.15.2007 8:32 PM PDT
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Posted by: Commander Santa
Wait...has this thread become a debate on whether or not to have a forum for debating? If we don't have a spot on B.net for debating; Yet we are in fact debating, and we are all still debating on that fact, then why is there a debate in the first place?


*head asplodes into infinity*

And I thought my circular logic was bad...

  • 02.16.2007 1:17 AM PDT

Posted by: Seggi31
Posted by: Doctor Jensen
I've challenged my beliefs. What is the book about?


I find that this is usually untrue. If religious people honestly, diligently and intelligently challenged their beliefs, there would be no religious people.

You CAN debate in the flood, but while I'm having a sensible debate with some of the more intelligent members, the debates usually get dominated by the few who can't handle a difference in opinion, and then stuff gets locked, people get bant, etc etc etc...

If we had a debate forum, there'd be less stupid people and more people that actually want to debate, not argue.

  • 02.16.2007 8:37 AM PDT
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"Whatever exists, whatever in creation exists without my knowledge exists without my consent. These anonymous creatures may seem little or nothing in the world. Yet the smallest crumb can devour us. Any smallest thing beneath yon rock out of men's knowing. Only nature can enslave man and only when the existence of each last entity is routed out and made to stand naked before him will he be properly suzerain of the earth."

Posted by: doctor woot
You CAN debate in the flood, but while I'm having a sensible debate with some of the more intelligent members, the debates usually get dominated by the few who can't handle a difference in opinion, and then stuff gets locked, people get bant, etc etc etc...

If we had a debate forum, there'd be less stupid people and more people that actually want to debate, not argue.


The anti-stupid-person force field is still not operating.

If everybody who wanted to debate actually went out to try to find a place to do so, wouldn’t there be a big group devoted to it? But all of these groups are really filled with like-minded people, with a minority opinion that hangs around to keep things interesting. All of the people who have different ideologies (expect for the exceptions) leave. Therefore, I have a lot of trouble believing that all members who might be capable of saying something intellectual are interested in debate. It would seem a lot of people would be more interested in stating their opinion and being praised, or at the very least not being attacked.

So I feel less confident about a debate forum. We now have spammers, people who want to debate, and people who simply want to be right. Plus they’re all posting at the same time. It sounds like utter chaos, and the true debaters are in the eye of the storm…or some analogy like that.

  • 02.16.2007 10:18 AM PDT

I never made any statement in regards to who can carry on a meaningful debate at all. I made no reference to The Septagon, The Flood, anybody. I never said that I wanted a proper survey either.

Yes, by default, the people who are debating rationally in this thread can handle a debate forum.

If everyone in a thread who replies is in support of it's idea, then we can assume that it is 100% supported based on the evidence we have i.e. there is nothing to prove otherwise. If no one responds as you suggested, then we don't know whether the idea is supported or not, as there is no physical evidence to suggest anything.
However, in this peculiar case, if one replies in support of a debate forum, obviously they support it, but also if one debates against a debate forum, they are still supporting it, simply because they are debating. Therefore, all responses are in support of the thread.

  • 02.16.2007 8:07 PM PDT

We’ve watched while the stars burned
Out, and creation played in reverse.
The Universe freezing in half-light.
Once I thought to escape.
To end a master, step out of the
Path of collapse. Escape would make us God.
Yet I cannot help but remember one enigma,
A hybrid, elusive destroyer.
This is the one mystery I have not solved.
The only element unaccounted for.

Posted by: elmicker
Eugh. don't get me started on the black chapter. That's probably the biggest circle jerk of the lot. Just starts out with something innocuous, but ends up as "CHRISTIANS MUST BURNZZ!!". It's almost as bad as Body Politic, which just ends up with pages and pages of people replying with 19 different quote boxes and using one-line straw men in which they try to cram as many long words as they can in, scoring extra bonus points if those long words are in latin.

/rant.

Yeah, some of the people in there are so smug that I wouldn't be surprised if they pulled a South Park and disappeared up their own asses.

  • 02.16.2007 11:51 PM PDT

We’ve watched while the stars burned
Out, and creation played in reverse.
The Universe freezing in half-light.
Once I thought to escape.
To end a master, step out of the
Path of collapse. Escape would make us God.
Yet I cannot help but remember one enigma,
A hybrid, elusive destroyer.
This is the one mystery I have not solved.
The only element unaccounted for.

Posted by: Captain K Mart
Post hoc, ergo propter hoc.

After, therefore because of it.

I <3 West Wing.

  • 02.16.2007 11:52 PM PDT
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Every topic is a debate really, or a discussion... Same thing I guess...

  • 02.17.2007 2:38 AM PDT
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"Whatever exists, whatever in creation exists without my knowledge exists without my consent. These anonymous creatures may seem little or nothing in the world. Yet the smallest crumb can devour us. Any smallest thing beneath yon rock out of men's knowing. Only nature can enslave man and only when the existence of each last entity is routed out and made to stand naked before him will he be properly suzerain of the earth."

Posted by: Savag3Shadow
I never made any statement in regards to who can carry on a meaningful debate at all. I made no reference to The Septagon, The Flood, anybody. I never said that I wanted a proper survey either.


True. But you said that this debate ("we are debating") "proves the feasability of its existence." My argument is simply that this very debate cannot be used as proof. For proof we need a lot more people who visit from other forums.

If everyone in a thread who replies is in support of it's idea, then we can assume that it is 100% supported based on the evidence we have i.e. there is nothing to prove otherwise. If no one responds as you suggested, then we don't know whether the idea is supported or not, as there is no physical evidence to suggest anything.
However, in this peculiar case, if one replies in support of a debate forum, obviously they support it, but also if one debates against a debate forum, they are still supporting it, simply because they are debating. Therefore, all responses are in support of the thread.


Perhaps what needs to happen is that you need to change your wording. If someone debates against the forum, like I have, for example, I am opposed to it. However, I am proving that if such a forum were made, I could, in theory, reply to it in a civilized manner. But my vote, which in this case was "nay," shows my opposition to the idea. Debating does not mean I support it.

  • 02.17.2007 8:37 AM PDT

Posted by: Mabian

True. But you said that this debate ("we are debating") "proves the feasability of its existence." My argument is simply that this very debate cannot be used as proof. For proof we need a lot more people who visit from other forums.


Yes, the fact that we are debating makes it feasable, that being the key word. If I would have said that the fact that we are debating makes this a sure thing, a successful idea, then I would need to slow down and get a larger sample size.


Perhaps what needs to happen is that you need to change your wording. If someone debates against the forum, like I have, for example, I am opposed to it. However, I am proving that if such a forum were made, I could, in theory, reply to it in a civilized manner. But my vote, which in this case was "nay," shows my opposition to the idea. Debating does not mean I support it.


My point was that the very act of you debating against a debate forum gives the idea support. Regardless of whether you vote yay nor nay, the act of debating is still debating, which is what we are striving for.

  • 02.17.2007 9:13 AM PDT
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"Whatever exists, whatever in creation exists without my knowledge exists without my consent. These anonymous creatures may seem little or nothing in the world. Yet the smallest crumb can devour us. Any smallest thing beneath yon rock out of men's knowing. Only nature can enslave man and only when the existence of each last entity is routed out and made to stand naked before him will he be properly suzerain of the earth."

Posted by: Savag3Shadow
Yes, the fact that we are debating makes it feasable, that being the key word. If I would have said that the fact that we are debating makes this a sure thing, a successful idea, then I would need to slow down and get a larger sample size.


Fair enough.

My point was that the very act of you debating against a debate forum gives the idea support.

I don't see how it gives support. A vote is a vote, regardless of how it is put forth. When I voted against the debate forum, the debate I made did not imply some hidden support for the forum. The debate implied that I could debate, but my vote does not change. So if I don't support the idea, how I choose to not support it makes no difference. I still don't support it.

  • 02.17.2007 10:12 AM PDT

Posted by: Seggi31
Posted by: Doctor Jensen
I've challenged my beliefs. What is the book about?


I find that this is usually untrue. If religious people honestly, diligently and intelligently challenged their beliefs, there would be no religious people.

Posted by: Mabian
Posted by: Savag3Shadow
Yes, the fact that we are debating makes it feasable, that being the key word. If I would have said that the fact that we are debating makes this a sure thing, a successful idea, then I would need to slow down and get a larger sample size.


Fair enough.

My point was that the very act of you debating against a debate forum gives the idea support.

I don't see how it gives support. A vote is a vote, regardless of how it is put forth. When I voted against the debate forum, the debate I made did not imply some hidden support for the forum. The debate implied that I could debate, but my vote does not change. So if I don't support the idea, how I choose to not support it makes no difference. I still don't support it.
He's saying even though you're talking about how people are too dumb to carry on a debate, the fact that you are doing so almost counters your own point.



And I have noticed that while several people talk about "the idiots" on these forums, in the middle of this entire debate I have yet to see one. Yet again, kinda proves my point.

  • 02.17.2007 10:29 AM PDT
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"Whatever exists, whatever in creation exists without my knowledge exists without my consent. These anonymous creatures may seem little or nothing in the world. Yet the smallest crumb can devour us. Any smallest thing beneath yon rock out of men's knowing. Only nature can enslave man and only when the existence of each last entity is routed out and made to stand naked before him will he be properly suzerain of the earth."

Posted by: doctor woot
He's saying even though you're talking about how people are too dumb to carry on a debate, the fact that you are doing so almost counters your own point.


It counters my point that though I say people cannot carry on a debate, I am carrying on a debate in a perfectly civilized manner? I am not the community, and the community is not me, so even if I were a lone voice of reason in the community, the community can still be idiotic, and just because the community is idiotic does not mean I am as well.

And I have noticed that while several people talk about "the idiots" on these forums, in the middle of this entire debate I have yet to see one. Yet again, kinda proves my point.

And the fact that the Septagon is commonly known to contain a small number of the total members, and generally has people who can carry on a debate, does not oppose? The Septagon does not represent the entirity of the forum population, nor is it a proper group to draw an opinion from when it concerns the behavior of the entire community. It basically goes back to my point about college professors.

  • 02.17.2007 11:12 AM PDT

Posted by: Seggi31
Posted by: Doctor Jensen
I've challenged my beliefs. What is the book about?


I find that this is usually untrue. If religious people honestly, diligently and intelligently challenged their beliefs, there would be no religious people.

Posted by: Mabian
Posted by: doctor woot
He's saying even though you're talking about how people are too dumb to carry on a debate, the fact that you are doing so almost counters your own point.


It counters my point that though I say people cannot carry on a debate, I am carrying on a debate in a perfectly civilized manner? I am not the community, and the community is not me, so even if I were a lone voice of reason in the community, the community can still be idiotic, and just because the community is idiotic does not mean I am as well.

And I have noticed that while several people talk about "the idiots" on these forums, in the middle of this entire debate I have yet to see one. Yet again, kinda proves my point.

And the fact that the Septagon is commonly known to contain a small number of the total members, and generally has people who can carry on a debate, does not oppose? The Septagon does not represent the entirity of the forum population, nor is it a proper group to draw an opinion from when it concerns the behavior of the entire community. It basically goes back to my point about college professors.
Two things


1)You are a part of this community, like it or not, so the fact that you can carry on a debate shows that there are people in this community that can do so

2)My point lies in the fact that for each forum there resides a majority with a certain mentality, and as long as you keep the debate forum to its own little place the likeliness of having more smart than stupid people end up there is pretty high >.<

  • 02.17.2007 11:22 AM PDT
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"Whatever exists, whatever in creation exists without my knowledge exists without my consent. These anonymous creatures may seem little or nothing in the world. Yet the smallest crumb can devour us. Any smallest thing beneath yon rock out of men's knowing. Only nature can enslave man and only when the existence of each last entity is routed out and made to stand naked before him will he be properly suzerain of the earth."

Posted by: doctor woot
1)You are a part of this community, like it or not, so the fact that you can carry on a debate shows that there are people in this community that can do so


Right. So even if I were the lone voice of reason, the fact that I can carry on a debate means that the community is ready for one.

How many people can't carry on a debate?

2)My point lies in the fact that for each forum there resides a majority with a certain mentality, and as long as you keep the debate forum to its own little place the likeliness of having more smart than stupid people end up there is pretty high >.<

"Its own little place" seems to me like something semi-private. But then, as elmicker stated, once you have something private, the people of one ideology don't like the people of another ideology, and eventually there is only one ideology that hangs around the forum. What good is the debate forum then?

Furthermore, how do you intend to keep all of the people who want to voice their opinions without actually "debating" out of the forum?

  • 02.17.2007 11:28 AM PDT
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Mabian, you know you want a debate forum. Why are you fighting it?

  • 02.17.2007 11:45 AM PDT

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