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Subject: Debate forum...yes, really.....
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  • Exalted Mythic Member
  • gamertag: Mabian
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"Whatever exists, whatever in creation exists without my knowledge exists without my consent. These anonymous creatures may seem little or nothing in the world. Yet the smallest crumb can devour us. Any smallest thing beneath yon rock out of men's knowing. Only nature can enslave man and only when the existence of each last entity is routed out and made to stand naked before him will he be properly suzerain of the earth."

Posted by: CHUCK NORRlS
Mabian, you know you want a debate forum. Why are you fighting it?


'Cause I got one of my own, and in there I don't have to worry as much about flamers coming in. Besides, what would the WD mean if I just started making them in that forum instead? I would think you would want me to vote nay.

  • 02.17.2007 12:09 PM PDT

Posted by: Seggi31
Posted by: Doctor Jensen
I've challenged my beliefs. What is the book about?


I find that this is usually untrue. If religious people honestly, diligently and intelligently challenged their beliefs, there would be no religious people.

Posted by: Mabian
Posted by: CHUCK NORRlS
Mabian, you know you want a debate forum. Why are you fighting it?


'Cause I got one of my own, and in there I don't have to worry as much about flamers coming in. Besides, what would the WD mean if I just started making them in that forum instead? I would think you would want me to vote nay.
I have my own I can go to also, but the thing is, I find the bungie populus (sp) to be....diverse. It'd be interesting to see all the different viewpoints people have in a civilized debate forum. If you don't like the idea, you don't have to go in it, but there are those who would like to openly debate about things and are willing to keep it at a sensible level.

  • 02.17.2007 6:33 PM PDT
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"Whatever exists, whatever in creation exists without my knowledge exists without my consent. These anonymous creatures may seem little or nothing in the world. Yet the smallest crumb can devour us. Any smallest thing beneath yon rock out of men's knowing. Only nature can enslave man and only when the existence of each last entity is routed out and made to stand naked before him will he be properly suzerain of the earth."

Posted by: doctor woot
I have my own I can go to also, but the thing is, I find the bungie populus (sp) to be....diverse. It'd be interesting to see all the different viewpoints people have in a civilized debate forum. If you don't like the idea, you don't have to go in it, but there are those who would like to openly debate about things and are willing to keep it at a sensible level.


Yes, and there are also those willing to run in spouting political or religious nonsense because they think that their opinion is absolutely right and any opinion that opposes their views must be wrong. I can already imagine the debates about how X political party ruins the country, and Y people are going to go somewhere for not believing in some diety.

Now you'll probably say that these people will be banned. But then not only is it possible to say these things without drawing attention to yourself (or at least not too much), this actually passes off for debate for many people.

But let's say that instead these people are going to be semi-reasonable. There's going to be a lot of them. A whole lot. And they'll be posting a lot, because when it comes to the myriad of possible topics, I'm sure everyone has something to say. So how can you carry on a debate when there is an entire crowd talking at the same time? Imagine trying to carry on a debate in the Halo 3 Forum, and that's probably what the forum would be like.

  • 02.17.2007 7:06 PM PDT
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The Marty Army

Ah, look at the lonely people...

Debate forums... are naturally inclined to be flamezones. I, personally, don't think that some of the community members could handle themselves. I could, but others...

  • 02.17.2007 7:07 PM PDT

Posted by: Seggi31
Posted by: Doctor Jensen
I've challenged my beliefs. What is the book about?


I find that this is usually untrue. If religious people honestly, diligently and intelligently challenged their beliefs, there would be no religious people.

Why does EVERYONE say "Yeah, I could do it, but there's others that will flame away" and yet...this is a debate, in which I see no flaming. So, if we made a forum with a presentation that would draw smarter members (Civilized debates ONLY...only in caps, it works) like everyone claims to be, maybe it could work. Unless the Septagon itself is a debate forum (seems to be) then...yeah.

  • 02.17.2007 7:26 PM PDT

Ok, I'm sorry, maybe I'm not just being clear enough, so let me try again.

1) doctor woot wants to have a debate forum.
2) If you reply in favor of the debate forum, you support it.
3) If you reply against the debate forum and state why, you are now debating, which is what we are trying to accomplish in the first place, therefore you support debating (after all, there is never one side to a debate).
4) If you reply in any other way such as flaming, your post will be dismissed as irrational, emotinal nonsense and isn't worth considering.

That is why this idea can only recieve support. See? Catch-22.

  • 02.17.2007 7:59 PM PDT
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"Whatever exists, whatever in creation exists without my knowledge exists without my consent. These anonymous creatures may seem little or nothing in the world. Yet the smallest crumb can devour us. Any smallest thing beneath yon rock out of men's knowing. Only nature can enslave man and only when the existence of each last entity is routed out and made to stand naked before him will he be properly suzerain of the earth."

Posted by: doctor woot
(Civilized debates ONLY...only in caps, it works)


Surely you don't believe that will ensure the safety of the forum. Do you honestly think that the people I have described will see those words, and then stop and meditate on their form of debating, and whether it falls under the banner of “civilized?”

Why don't you carry on a debate in the Flood? Surely there are plenty of non-political/non-religious topics that you can have a debate over. I can think of plenty.

Posted by: Savag3Shadow
1) doctor woot wants to have a debate forum.
2) If you reply in favor of the debate forum, you support it.


I follow you up to here, and agree.

3) If you reply against the debate forum and state why, you are now debating, which is what we are trying to accomplish in the first place, therefore you support debating (after all, there is never one side to a debate).

Here's where I lose you. I support debating. I think it's a good way for people to experience other ideas. So your logic seems okay there.

But then you seem to be twisting it so that I now support a debate forum, which I don't. I love a good debate, but I find a debate forum to be a future disaster. Now I am helping to prove that there are people out there that can carry on a civilized debate, but that was not a debated point to begin with, so it doesn't matter. But my posting of a counter-argument does not mean that I change my vote to "aye."

4) If you reply in any other way such as flaming, your post will be dismissed as irrational, emotinal nonsense and isn't worth considering.

What if you post against the debate forum, but don't explain why?

  • 02.17.2007 8:05 PM PDT

Posted by: Seggi31
Posted by: Doctor Jensen
I've challenged my beliefs. What is the book about?


I find that this is usually untrue. If religious people honestly, diligently and intelligently challenged their beliefs, there would be no religious people.

the flood description has the word "stupid" in it. Therefore it's a rather inconvenient place to debate, because people who aren't willing to think tend to flock to it. Sure, it has it's share of smarter members, but there's too many...other people for it to be of any use. What I mean is, a debate forum could help because the people that want to debate can debate freely in such a forum, while the ones who want to act stupid can stay in the flood, much like the people who choose to stay civil remain in the septagon.

  • 02.17.2007 8:13 PM PDT
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I don't care if you put a debate forum up....I'll still go to groups or the other forums and just skip the whole thing anyway.

I know that a debate on public forums is impossible. uUnless you are in the Septagon. The Septagon bores the crap out of anyone that would normally flame. Or atleast most of the people that would flame. Thats why this is debate is civil.

No one reads the rules, so just saying "Hey please debate nicely" is like telling very hungry dogs not to eat the meat in front of them.

I'm very pro debate....but I'm anti a debate forum.

[Edited on 2/17/2007]

  • 02.17.2007 8:20 PM PDT
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"Whatever exists, whatever in creation exists without my knowledge exists without my consent. These anonymous creatures may seem little or nothing in the world. Yet the smallest crumb can devour us. Any smallest thing beneath yon rock out of men's knowing. Only nature can enslave man and only when the existence of each last entity is routed out and made to stand naked before him will he be properly suzerain of the earth."

Posted by: doctor woot
the flood description has the word "stupid" in it. Therefore it's a rather inconvenient place to debate, because people who aren't willing to think tend to flock to it. Sure, it has it's share of smarter members, but there's too many...other people for it to be of any use. What I mean is, a debate forum could help because the people that want to debate can debate freely in such a forum, while the ones who want to act stupid can stay in the flood, much like the people who choose to stay civil remain in the septagon.


But you seem to assume that the people who "want to act stupid" will respect other peoples' wishes. After all, putting up "Civilized debate only" is your suggestion to keeping them out. So then couldn't you make a debate thread, and then put "Civilized debate only" in it?

  • 02.17.2007 8:34 PM PDT

Posted by: Seggi31
Posted by: Doctor Jensen
I've challenged my beliefs. What is the book about?


I find that this is usually untrue. If religious people honestly, diligently and intelligently challenged their beliefs, there would be no religious people.

The fact that they're already in the flood makes it harder to keep em out...

  • 02.17.2007 8:51 PM PDT
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  • Exalted Mythic Member
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"Whatever exists, whatever in creation exists without my knowledge exists without my consent. These anonymous creatures may seem little or nothing in the world. Yet the smallest crumb can devour us. Any smallest thing beneath yon rock out of men's knowing. Only nature can enslave man and only when the existence of each last entity is routed out and made to stand naked before him will he be properly suzerain of the earth."

Posted by: doctor woot
The fact that they're already in the flood makes it harder to keep em out...


But if they are willing to stay out of an entire forum because of such a request, surely they would be kind enough to stay out a single thread because of the same request. After all, these people know that they don't want to carry on a civilized debate, and they have plenty of space in which they can be stupid, so they'll just leave you alone. Just like they will leave your debate forum alone. Right?

[Edited on 2/17/2007]

  • 02.17.2007 8:55 PM PDT

Posted by: Seggi31
Posted by: Doctor Jensen
I've challenged my beliefs. What is the book about?


I find that this is usually untrue. If religious people honestly, diligently and intelligently challenged their beliefs, there would be no religious people.

It works on different levels. Shooting someone in the head to kill them is different from shooting them in the knee to immobilize them (best analogy I could think of at the moment, sue me) it's still shooting them, but they're still different, in a sense, and produce different effects. In the same sense, putting it in a different forum is safer than putting it in the flood. Not saying that it'll be perfectly safe, but at least there's a certain "barrier" that some aren't willing to cross, see what I mean?

  • 02.17.2007 9:41 PM PDT

By debating against the debate forum in a forum, you are debating in a forum, which is what we want to do. So even if you think we shouldn't have a debate forum, you are still debating in a forum.
If I say "The sky is green" and then give no explanation why, would it even be worth your time to listen to me?

  • 02.18.2007 6:45 PM PDT
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  • Exalted Mythic Member
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"Whatever exists, whatever in creation exists without my knowledge exists without my consent. These anonymous creatures may seem little or nothing in the world. Yet the smallest crumb can devour us. Any smallest thing beneath yon rock out of men's knowing. Only nature can enslave man and only when the existence of each last entity is routed out and made to stand naked before him will he be properly suzerain of the earth."

Posted by: doctor woot
It works on different levels. Shooting someone in the head to kill them is different from shooting them in the knee to immobilize them (best analogy I could think of at the moment, sue me) it's still shooting them, but they're still different, in a sense, and produce different effects. In the same sense, putting it in a different forum is safer than putting it in the flood. Not saying that it'll be perfectly safe, but at least there's a certain "barrier" that some aren't willing to cross, see what I mean?


Not really, no.

Now I'll make the assumption that you know who, at the very least, many of the intelligent people are that you want in your debate forum. You also said that you have a group designed for having debates. So why not just invite everyone you want in your group? It will consist of everyone that would be in the debate forum, minus the spammers and people who don't know how to properly debate.

I don't see how having a different forum that is advertised for debating will be protected by simply not being in the other forums and having three simple words hanging about.

Posted by: Savag3Shadow
By debating against the debate forum in a forum, you are debating in a forum, which is what we want to do. So even if you think we shouldn't have a debate forum, you are still debating in a forum.
If I say "The sky is green" and then give no explanation why, would it even be worth your time to listen to me?


No, it wouldn't, but I do not understand how this proves that I am supporting a debate forum by debating, despite the fact that I am voting against it.

But we're going nowhere rather slowly. Is there a better place to do this?

  • 02.18.2007 6:50 PM PDT
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Start a group to debate about a debate forum. HA! I have offically come up with a brilliant idea. [/sarcasm]

  • 02.18.2007 7:00 PM PDT

Mabian I'm sorry, I don't know how else to explain it.
I can give you an example, but thats about it. This example is actually taken from the book Catch-22. Let's say that you are a fighter pilot in a war, and you are tired of flying on so many missions. One day, you come across a clause in your "contract". If you are crazy, you can be sent home, all you have to do is ask. But, if you ask to be sent home, that shows cognisance and concern for your own well-being, and therefore you cannot be considered crazy. That's a Catch-22.
So, applied to this discussion, the very act of you debating against a debate makes you support it because even though you are against it, you are still debating. Again, I don't know how else to explain it.

  • 02.20.2007 10:07 AM PDT

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