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Subject: New FLAGGING feature for easier moderating

Fight hard, break bones >{o

what if flaggin was done with a tag? then it would only be used by members who at least know the rules. how many 8 year olds get on and spam, but do it with bold or quotes or any of that? how many times have you seen people ask, "how do i link stuff?"

now if you posted [offensive] with your reply, and it gave the thread a hit, it would keep things smooth. plus you could just take away the option for normal members to see the flags in a thread and therefore the flaggin would only be something to catch the eye of a mod and would be used for nothing else.

where are the problems? "people are immature and will abuse it!" so what!? it doesnt affect the post any, if members can see the flaggin, its a little less likely some will click on it, but if its a good, respectable member, those who are familiar with bnet will still check it out. im getting sick of losing cool features becuase of a few idiots, just ban them when they come by and let those of us that can handle this website maturely do so!

there really is no flaw with this idea, if you say there is im telling you your wrong. it may not be worth putting in, i'll give you that, but there are no flaws. none. nada.

[Edited on 3/7/2007]

  • 03.07.2007 2:59 PM PDT
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Posted by: DEATHPIMP72
Anyone but Foman. He smells like cheese.

Posted by: Sick Pimpin
there really is no flaw with this idea, if you say there is im telling you your wrong. it may not be worth putting in, i'll give you that, but there are no flaws. none. nada.


Haha, it's clever except that it would necessitate posting in a spam thread, which of course, is both ill-advised and arguably against the rules. Moreover, the reply would keep the post at the top of the forum, whereas a flag button would not.

To the people worried about abuse of the "flagging" system:

How about this solution?

Add another tier of membership level in between Forum Ninja and Regular Member. These people would maybe be called "Senior Members," and would have all of the abilities of a regular member PLUS the ability to flag posts.

There would be no limits on the number of Senior Members, and they would not be able to join HFCS or do any other type of moderating except flagging. In order to become a Senior Member, you'd have to be "promoted" by the higher-ups and demonstrate maturity and familiarity with the rules.

Everything else in my original idea remains the same. A post's status as "flagged" would still be invisible to everyone but forum ninjas and above, and the final decision to lock a thread would still belong to the true moderators.

The only change would be that "flags" would no longer be anonymous. If a "Senior Member" abuses the flagging privilege too much, he or she is bumped back down to regular "Member" status and their ability to flag posts is removed.

EDIT: This may also help to reduce bad posts by encouraging regular members who might otherwise be inclined to flame or spam to clean up their posts in the hopes of being "promoted."

Ideas?

[Edited on 3/7/2007]

  • 03.07.2007 3:15 PM PDT

If you don't got it, you want it. If you got it, you want more of it. Of course if you don't know what it is, it's hard to get any in the first place.

A clean, efficient system where I can flag threads, an ability for mods to "lock flagging on a thread", and a means of rewarding community interaction and quality posts?

(and I'd get a shiny title below my name :p)

Sign me up.

Your senior member idea solves so many problems, but doesn't seem to have any flaws. I love it.

Would it be possible for Ninjas to see who has flagged a thread? I like that Ninjas would be able to look at the number of flags on a thread to see if there was a problem, but at the same time, it would be great if Mods could tell who's flagged the thread, who was first, etc. That way they could tell if a user was abusing their flagging powers.

[Edited on 3/7/2007]

  • 03.07.2007 4:28 PM PDT
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Posted by: DEATHPIMP72
Anyone but Foman. He smells like cheese.

Thanks, glad you like the idea!

Posted by: RoboChocobo
Would it be possible for Ninjas to see who has flagged a thread? I like that Ninjas would be able to look at the number of flags on a thread to see if there was a problem, but at the same time, it would be great if Mods could tell who's flagged the thread, who was first, etc. That way they could tell if a user was abusing their flagging powers.


Yes, under my idea moderators and staff would be able to see who flagged the thread in order to determine whether a "Senior Member" is abusing his upgraded role. I doubt that this would be much of an issue, though, for those persons deemed mature and wise enough to become a Senior Member.

  • 03.07.2007 4:41 PM PDT
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It doesnt matter who flagged the thread. If the flagging system is just an e-mail notification to the moderators, then the moderators would determine the worthiness of the flagging and either ignore it, or take action.

  • 03.07.2007 10:41 PM PDT

Posted by: x Foman123 x
Posted by: Sick Pimpin
there really is no flaw with this idea, if you say there is im telling you your wrong. it may not be worth putting in, i'll give you that, but there are no flaws. none. nada.


Haha, it's clever except that it would necessitate posting in a spam thread, which of course, is both ill-advised and arguably against the rules. Moreover, the reply would keep the post at the top of the forum, whereas a flag button would not.

To the people worried about abuse of the "flagging" system:

How about this solution?

Add another tier of membership level in between Forum Ninja and Regular Member. These people would maybe be called "Senior Members," and would have all of the abilities of a regular member PLUS the ability to flag posts.

There would be no limits on the number of Senior Members, and they would not be able to join HFCS or do any other type of moderating except flagging. In order to become a Senior Member, you'd have to be "promoted" by the higher-ups and demonstrate maturity and familiarity with the rules.

Everything else in my original idea remains the same. A post's status...(edited for space)

Ah, you see, you have come to the critical juncture that has shot down many an idea. The need for an extra level of members has thrown a kink into the system and now you must decide who those folks are. This in turn only makes the job harder for the mods or site admin, if those are who you intend to have to chose who are the "senior members".

They now must not only watch for bad threads and problem users but also delegate authority(a small one at that) to a level of members who would have the ability to flag threads. That's not all. They would also have to "monitor the monitors" and decide if what is being flagged is worth being flagged. Things happen sometimes: accounts get hijacked and people simply have bad days. Eventually someone would show that they are no longer reliable enough to be a "senior member"

Who else believes this creates more problems than it alleviates? I'm still a strong advocate of just ignoring problem users and/or PMing a mod if it irks you so much that you believe it requires dire attention that can't wait until a ninja stumbles upon it.

  • 03.07.2007 11:32 PM PDT
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Posted by: DEATHPIMP72
Anyone but Foman. He smells like cheese.

Posted by: Spec_Ops_Assault
Ah, you see, you have come to the critical juncture that has shot down many an idea. The need for an extra level of members has thrown a kink into the system and now you must decide who those folks are. This in turn only makes the job harder for the mods or site admin, if those are who you intend to have to chose who are the "senior members".

They now must not only watch for bad threads and problem users but also delegate authority(a small one at that) to a level of members who would have the ability to flag threads. That's not all. They would also have to "monitor the monitors" and decide if what is being flagged is worth being flagged.


You seem to act like this will cause a lot more work. But - and no offense - you fail to realize that this is absolutely no different from what moderators already do. Members (including me) are constantly locating bad posts and "unofficially" flagging them by PMing, IMing, or IRCing moderators about it. My "flagging" idea would make the process both "official" and much simpler by making the system automatic - trusted users would not have to go to the trouble to log onto MSN or (for those of us like me who don't get MSN at work) find out which moderator is online and PM him. Just flag it and you're done - a moderator will take a look in due course.

As for deciding who the trustworthy b.net community people are - I hardly think that will take a lot of work. I'd be willing to bet that most moderators could very easily come up with a list of community members whom they would trust with a "flagging" tool.

Things happen sometimes: accounts get hijacked and people simply have bad days. Eventually someone would show that they are no longer reliable enough to be a "senior member"

Again, this is no different than the kinds of things that can happen to a regular member, moderator, or above. The mere remote possibility of a hijacked account should not factor into whether or not this is a good idea - Senior Members would need to be careful with their passwords and logging out.

As for "bad days," it seems a bit farfetched to imagine our more mature and experienced community members saying to themselves, "God dang the stupid washing machine broke again... I'm gonna flag every post I see on Bungie today!" Senior Members would be chosen specifically based on their consistency in being polite, mature, and rule-abiding. But even if that kind of thing were to happen, the Senior Member having the "bad day" could easily be given a chance to explain himself/herself and make things right. If they can't, they're out.

Who else believes this creates more problems than it alleviates? I'm still a strong advocate of just ignoring problem users and/or PMing a mod if it irks you so much that you believe it requires dire attention that can't wait until a ninja stumbles upon it.

I think that your intentions are well-placed, but that you're failing to see the big picture. This system might create more work in the short term for admins and moderators, but would create LESS work in the long run in two ways:
1) The "flagging" system would delegate some work to trusted community members, who would be inclined to try harder to find bad posts.

2) The "flagging" system would create an incentive to be a "good member" of the b.net forums in order to receive the "promotion" to Senior Member, thereby causing some members who might otherwise be inclined to spam or flame to think twice.
Contrary to your statement that we should simply be "ignoring problem users," most people agree that the system is not "good enough" as it is. It is a great forum and a great site, but there is nothing wrong with trying to make it better.

I quote Achronos from his posts in a different thread: "Pretty much the only problem that we need to fix is that there is no incentive to be a good member. . . . [Some] people seem to think controlling content is the problem, [but] really the problem is one of reducing the impact a bad user can have."

My idea addresses both of Achronos's concerns. A little bit more work in the short term to create less work in the long term - how is this a bad thing?


[Edited on 3/8/2007]

  • 03.08.2007 7:24 AM PDT

Fight hard, break bones >{o

nice additions to the idea and explanations.

  • 03.08.2007 5:57 PM PDT

also, how about having flagging users? if a post that they have you find to be innapropriate, and not the thread, then you can flag them, and a mod can either edit their post, delete it, or B-list them.

  • 03.08.2007 8:50 PM PDT
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Posted by: A Dumb Door
also, how about having flagging users? if a post that they have you find to be innapropriate, and not the thread, then you can flag them, and a mod can either edit their post, delete it, or B-list them.


I agree. A lot of forums do that.

  • 03.08.2007 8:56 PM PDT
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No. Let the mods do their job.

  • 03.08.2007 10:42 PM PDT

SB-117

Arrgh. No, I wouldn't want there to be a "Senior" tier of members. If there was a flagging system, I would just say have it like this..

All members have the ability to report a thread.

On the moderators forum index screen, it may have a little "Danger" icon next to threads (in addition to the usual icon members can see). This means someone thought it was worth attention. Now, a moderator can just go in, and clean up.

In the bottom of the thread, there can be a list of users who reported the thread (so if someone wrongly reported it, they can be warned not to "cry wolf" in future, they could even have the privelage removed entirely if they persist).

Now, I did say "All members" and I still think that any member should be able to report a thread. But similar to not being able to create threads in the first 24 hours, I don't think new members should be allowed to flag threads until perhaps a week after they have joined, this gives them time to learn the rules. It also makes sure that duplicate spam accounts can't just go through and report every thread to piss the moderators off.

In the case of spammers who have been here for longer than a week (and are reporting every thread), when banned, their report is disabled and the forums go back to normal.

This system would mean no elistist "Senior Members" and easy tools to punish people who abuse the system.

But here's the most important part...

Personally, I think the idea is rather pointless because when I'm on the forums, I can usually find the problematic posts anyway (although this would probably make that easier for sure). The most useful "flagging" I get, is from friends on MSN (when I'm away from Bungie.net but still on my computer).

*edit* Sorry for long post.

[Edited on 3/9/2007]

  • 03.09.2007 4:44 AM PDT

Old school Bungie, born and raised,
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Got in one little argument, and the mods got scared,
they said "You're gonna get banned and your member title'll be bare!"

Posted by: ash55
Personally, I think the idea is rather pointless because when I'm on the forums, I can usually find the problematic posts anyway...


Agreed. Spam threads usually have a title that stand out more strongly than a Hunter in a Grunt convention...

  • 03.09.2007 7:06 AM PDT
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Posted by: DEATHPIMP72
Anyone but Foman. He smells like cheese.

Posted by: ash55
This system would mean no elistist "Senior Members" and easy tools to punish people who abuse the system.

Personally, I think the idea is rather pointless because when I'm on the forums, I can usually find the problematic posts anyway (although this would probably make that easier for sure). The most useful "flagging" I get, is from friends on MSN (when I'm away from Bungie.net but still on my computer).


All good points that you have made. I have some responses that I hope will directly address your concerns with this idea:
* First, why not create another tier of membership? The only reason you give is that it would create "elitism." I don't think that this is true. Senior Members would not think that they were so great that they couldn't be bothered to converse with regular members. If you want proof that the system would not create elitism, just look at the moderators - you guys participate in the forums just as much as the regular members. Such a result has not happened with you and it would not happen with Senior Members, who would receive such status PRECISELY because they are mature and wise enough not to resort to petty squabbles about who is a better/worse member.

And completely disregarding the question of whether or not "Senior" status would create "elitism," it would most certainly give regular members something to strive for. I believe that LOTS of members would want to receive "senior" status, and would realize that this can be a much more attainable goal than "forum ninja" status. Members who would not clean up their posting habits otherwise might strive to attain "senior" status and stop posting spam/flames.

* How can a "flagging" system be pointless when even you state that the system would make finding problematic posts "easier for sure"? As both you and prometheus have implied from your use of the word "usually," not all spam jumps out from the main forum page - especially during times of increased activity or in the busier forums. Moreover, spam is only one kind of problematic thread. Moderators still must deal with bad posts that are violations of other rules - a Senior Member who spends a lot of time in any particular forum is much more likely to notice a thread that has been bumped 4 or 5 times by the original poster - such a violation of the forum rules would in no way be obvious or easy to spot, especially if there are responses in between the bumps and/or the bumps are cleverly worded.

One of the most clever methods of bumping I have seen, without naming names, is to reply to a "dead" thread and then immediately edit the reply to say "nevermind" or "delete." This takes the thread to the top of the forum page but does not look like a bump. Only a person who is paying careful attention to the thread or who remembers the thread would notice - if that person is not a moderator, a "flag" system would surely be an efficient way to mark that thread so that a moderator can scrutinize the post more closely.

As I've stated, the flagging system is not intended to be a replacement, but rather a supplement to the current system to make it more efficient, in addition to giving regular forum members a big incentive to become "good members." This system accomplishes both.

* You noted that the most useful flagging you get is from MSN. I agree that MSN and PMs can be extremely useful, but there are two problems with it.

First, I usually visit Bungie.net from work, where we are strongly discouraged from using instant messenger services. I and people like me cannot use MSN to get in touch with moderators. We are relegated to using the "find out which mod is online" program and then PMing the most recent mod or mods.

Second, I have all of the mods' MSN screen names (who have made them available or given them to me) , and I can tell you that at the times that I do get a chance to use MSN, there are many instances when no mods are online in MSN.

MSN is not reliable enough to be an "indirect flagging" method. Nor is PM, because many times - even using KD's program - you send a PM to a mod who does not log in again for the rest of the day. Furthermore, PMing every time you see a bad post can be extremely cumbersome. Anyone who has ever tried to do this can attest to that fact.

* For the above reasons, the flagging system is much more efficient for regular members who are trying to help things out. But this system is also much more efficient for moderators. Imagine logging on to b.net late at night or early in the morning, and you are the first mod to log in for the last hour. You will be able to tell at one simple glance in any particular forum EXACTLY which posts you need to check out first. Moreover, imagine receiving fewer instant messages and PMs with just some link to a post that, by the time you get to it, has long since been shut down.

It is important to note that this system is more efficient for BOTH moderators and members. It is similarly important to note that every member who is mature, knowledgeable of the rules, and willing to help get problematic posts shut down does not necessarily have the time, patience, desire, or (in the case of MSN) even the ability to use the current methods of notifying moderators about bad posts.

I hope this addresses some of your concerns, and while it may have some drawbacks, no listed drawback that I have seen while running this system through the Septagon's crucible outweighs the benefits.

I really think that this system could work if implemented, and if anyone has a reason that it can't that hasn't been addressed yet, please post it.

EDIT: I also am sorry for the long post.... I wanted to address all of the issues raised thoroughly.

EDIT 2: KD's "which mod is online" program is also not a reliable "indirect flagging" method because the damn thing doesn't work half the time... like right now!!!

[Edited on 3/9/2007]

  • 03.09.2007 8:23 AM PDT

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*laughs* People here don't possess much maturity.

  • 03.09.2007 2:59 PM PDT

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Posted by: Reanimation
*laughs* People here don't possess much maturity.


You can say that again.
.. I didn't come to mind when you were typing that, did I?

I believe that any abilities like that should be privledges given to good members, hand-picked. Never should any 'special' feature be given to members just for being around a long time.. Flagging should be given to members who have proven they can do such things.

  • 03.09.2007 3:05 PM PDT

Posted by: Reanimation
*laughs* People here don't possess much maturity.


Gee, on a video game website. Who'd a thunk it?

  • 03.09.2007 4:59 PM PDT

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