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Subject: THE NEW HAWTNESS

"In order to be effective, truth must penetrate like an arrow - and that is likely to hurt." -Wei Wu Wei

With the impending change in the Bungie.net forum interface, a lot of people have been suggesting changes. But something people have been saying since the advent of online forums, is again going un addressed. Elevating the dialogue to rational, well thought out discussions, which would attract more mature and productive forum members. I know this seems impossible, but hear me out before dismissing this idea completely.

First off, I understand that there is no way to keep the "crazy folk" from posting nonsense on any given forum thread. They think it's extremely funny, and apparently have no interest in providing REAL feedback or suggestions.

Secondly, I understand that idiots have the right to their idiotic opinions. Jerks will be jerky, children will act their age, and ignorami (plural ignoramus) will continue to post X button theories, despite repeated responses saying "read the sticky", which only serves to re-post the thread at the top of the list, starting the process over again.

Finally, I understand that not everyone appreciates long, drawn out, forum threads. Some people prefer everything short and sweet, like "Poll: Would you kick the Arbiter in the nuts, if you could. Yes or No." (BTW, I would, just to wipe that "feel sorry for me" frown off his stupid, split lipped grill.)

The point I'm trying to make is that what we need in the NEW Bungie.net is a more regulated common sense forum. We can still have space for people to post their worthless garbage (and c'mon, there is some serious waste of space threads out there). But we should also have a place where the B.Net mods and forum Ninja really try to cut the fat.

I think we need not limit the topics, but rather allow the responses to be omitted if they are irrelevant, or otherwise redundant. Too many times I've watched a perfectly decent thread degenerate into flaming back and forth, or rapid fire one sentence discussions. If we (or the forum supervisors) could eliminate the non-pertinent responses, before they became visible to other posters, it would make many threads much more readable.

As for how to decide what content makes it onto the forum, I think that can be left to the Ninja. They've pretty much seen it all when it comes to discussion topics, so they ought to be able to discern between a quality, original post, and something that is re-hashed or worse, just plain nonsense.

I am in no way implying that my own posts would somehow hold more water. In fact I think a majority of the topics I have written on would NOT make the cut. But this would be an opportunity to have a truly unique online experience. Where truly dedicated fans, who put in the time, thought, and research necessary to make a GREAT post could be showcased, and given REAL feedback from other similarly interested individuals. It may be asking too much of the online volunteers to sift through all the submissions. But if Bungie needs help, I'm always available.

[Edited on 3/8/2007]

  • 03.07.2007 12:31 PM PDT
Subject: Improving the NEW HAWTNESS

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How do you improve something that you have next to no information about?

  • 03.07.2007 12:34 PM PDT

"In order to be effective, truth must penetrate like an arrow - and that is likely to hurt." -Wei Wu Wei

Are you serious? This is exactly what I'm talking about. Thank you sir, for making it abundantly clear what the problem with the REPLY system is. Now this thread's FIRST response will always be from someone who just read the TITLE and responded without reading the CONTENT of the post. (you'll noticed I've capitalized the IMPORTANT words, that way if he skims the response, he may still get the POINT)

  • 03.07.2007 12:41 PM PDT
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Posted by: DEATHPIMP72
Anyone but Foman. He smells like cheese.

The forum ninjas can be trusted with discerning what is a "legal" and "illegal" reply in compliance with the forum rules. I worry, however, that this idea would create a hell of a lot of work for the ninjas.

The problem, of course, lies in the fact that the ninjas would have to go through and individually deal with "legality" of hundreds or thousands of replies. It seems a bit too cumbersome.


Edited to clarify that I do not agree with censorship and that I merely agree with the concept that threads might benefit if the already-established forum rules could be enforced on an individual basis, but that I believe such a system would be too cumbersome and impossible to deal with on a huge forum like b.net.

[Edited on 3/7/2007]

  • 03.07.2007 1:00 PM PDT

Tom Achronos
Bungie.net Overlord
twitter: http://twitter.com/Achronos

"I have no words that would do justice to the atrocities you commit to the English language, as well as your continued assaults on the concepts of basic literacy and logical reasoning."

On the contrary, his reply and your response show why this is a bad idea. You automatically assumed a tone to that questions that may or may not have been there, just because it fit in with your stereotype of a "bad post".

The moderators are not here to censor content. They are here to enforce rules. You may be irritated at the constant "X-button" threads for example, but people participate in those dicussions. You are welcome to, you know, NOT click on them.

Many of you seem to have this fanciful idea that the forums would be a lot better if only we had some kind of magical system. Well, the honest truth is that if you participate in a positive way and quit trying to "manage" things, a bunch of the noise would go away. Pretty much the only problem that we need to fix is that there is no incentive to be a good member. I have ideas there. But your censorship plan is not even remotely close to something that would be a good idea for a forum of this size.

Posted by: CNC MadDogg
Are you serious? This is exactly what I'm talking about. Thank you sir, for making it abundantly clear what the problem with the REPLY system is. Now this thread's FIRST response will always be from someone who just read the TITLE and responded without reading the CONTENT of the post. (you'll noticed I've capitalized the IMPORTANT words, that way if he skims the response, he may still get the POINT)

  • 03.07.2007 1:19 PM PDT

Official Town Drunk of Sandwichia. Nation of the Flood.
MBT - Impossible Just Happened
* How is it that "Fat Chance" and "Slim Chance" mean the same thing?
* If you choke a Smurf, what color will it turn?

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Posted by: CNC MadDogg
Are you serious? This is exactly what I'm talking about. Thank you sir, for making it abundantly clear what the problem with the REPLY system is. Now this thread's FIRST response will always be from someone who just read the TITLE and responded without reading the CONTENT of the post. (you'll noticed I've capitalized the IMPORTANT words, that way if he skims the response, he may still get the POINT)

Are you saying that I only have to read the capitalized letters to get the main idea of the post?
I don't get it. In your entire post all you said was way's to improve the newer hawtness.

but you know nothing of the newer hawtness.

thats like me telling someone how to improve something they haven' even invented yet.

You just don't know the flaws.

And my question still stands.

[Edited on 3/7/2007]

  • 03.07.2007 1:25 PM PDT

"In order to be effective, truth must penetrate like an arrow - and that is likely to hurt." -Wei Wu Wei

BTW, I read that post, it was quality work.

I agree that this would be a much larger undertaking for the Ninja. Ideally the process would be two-fold. First, only the most relevent threads would be displayed. This would eliminate extraneous work, but might also cause a higher concentration of responses to the threads which DO make the cut. Second, there would probably have to be some sort of approval system, where the unimportant responses are eliminated before being visible. This would hopefully cut down on the bickering, and reduce the overall number of replies.

If everything worked up to that point, it seems like people who have nothing to say would stop trying to post on those forums. It's like ignoring the really annoying guy on the bus, eventually he'll get bored and bother someone else. As long as there are OTHER places for them to post nonsense freely there shouldn't be too many inane comments to sort through.



[Edited on 3/7/2007]

  • 03.07.2007 1:27 PM PDT

Official Town Drunk of Sandwichia. Nation of the Flood.
MBT - Impossible Just Happened
* How is it that "Fat Chance" and "Slim Chance" mean the same thing?
* If you choke a Smurf, what color will it turn?

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Posted by: CNC MadDogg
BTW, I read that post, it was quality work.

I agree that this would be a much larger undertaking for the Ninja. Ideally the process would be two-fold. First, only the most relevent threads would be displayed. This would eliminate extraneous work, but might also cause a higher concentration of responses to the threads which DO make the cut. Second, there would probably have to be some sort of approval system, where the unimportant responses are eliminated before being visible. This would hopefully cut down on the bickering, and reduce the overall number of replies.

If everything worked up to that point, it seems like people who have nothing to say would stop trying to post on those forums. It's like ignoring the really annoying guy on the bus, eventually he'll get bored and bother someone else. As long as there are OTHER places for them to post nonsense freely there shouldn't be too many inane comments to sort through.



but we have that already/ Stupid repeat topics go in the H3 forum.

Stupid repeat topics that don't concern halo or bungie go in the flood.

  • 03.07.2007 1:28 PM PDT

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Posted by: Achronos
Pretty much the only problem that we need to fix is that there is no incentive to be a good member. I have ideas there.


*touches*

  • 03.07.2007 1:29 PM PDT

Posted by: CNC MadDogg
"Poll: Would you kick the Arbiter in the nuts, if you could. Yes or No."


Dude, I would totally kick him in the nuts.

Here's another thing I would do..........let the ninja's do their job. Most of them are actually bright, intelligent people who were chosen for a reason, to do make sure Achronos' dry cleaning is done on time. Another reason is to enforce the already well thought out rules.

  • 03.07.2007 1:37 PM PDT

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Posted by: atomic weggie
Here's another thing I would do..........let the ninja's do their job. Most of them are actually bright, intelligent people


Wait, are we talking about our ninjas?

  • 03.07.2007 1:41 PM PDT
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Posted by: SS_Zag1
Posted by: atomic weggie
Here's another thing I would do..........let the ninja's do their job. Most of them are actually bright, intelligent people


Wait, are we talking about our ninjas?


*chuckles and snickers*

  • 03.07.2007 1:46 PM PDT

Posted by: SS_Zag1
Posted by: atomic weggie
Here's another thing I would do..........let the ninja's do their job. Most of them are actually bright, intelligent people


Wait, are we talking about our ninjas?


You obviously haven't seen Recon's home made re-creation of West Side Story on betamax. Breathtaking.

  • 03.07.2007 1:49 PM PDT
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Fxck the "HAWTNESS."

Just let Mr. Site King do his job and don't worry about what needs changed. Basically everything people suggest sux or is already being used or is being created.

  • 03.07.2007 1:50 PM PDT
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Posted by: DEATHPIMP72
Anyone but Foman. He smells like cheese.

Achronos,

Let me start by clarifying my previous statement and saying that I completely agree with you about the fact that these forums should not practice censorship. The line between "censorship" of ideas and preventing a person from saying something that adds absolutely nothing of value to public discourse is a difficult line to discern, and even a problem that the United States Supreme Court has struggled with on many occassions. Censorship should never be practiced here, and you are right to err on the side of allowing MORE speech rather than less.

But I noticed this:

Posted by: Achronos
Many of you seem to have this fanciful idea that the forums would be a lot better if only we had some kind of magical system. Well, the honest truth is that if you participate in a positive way and quit trying to "manage" things, a bunch of the noise would go away.

I am not sure what you mean by this statement, but I must disagree completely with any potential implication that the solution to making spammers, flamers and other bad posters "go away" is for more mature forum members to STOP coming up with ideas to improve the forums and instead merely try to "participate in a positive way."

Case in point:* My idea about a flagging system for the forums in the Septagon has resulted in a whopping 24 replies, every single one of them on-topic except for one joke made by yours truly.

* On the other hand, here is what happens when I try to participate in the forums in a positive way. (for those of you who do not feel like clicking, this is the link to my Halo 3 forum post about Master Chief floating, a 300-reply flame/spamfest referenced earlier in this thread)
In light of how often this kind of thing happens, I just want to be sure that you are not implying that the solution to ending spam, flaming, and other bad posts on b.net is for us to stop coming up with ideas to improve the forums.

EDIT: organization




[Edited on 3/7/2007]

  • 03.07.2007 2:19 PM PDT

Official Town Drunk of Sandwichia. Nation of the Flood.
MBT - Impossible Just Happened
* How is it that "Fat Chance" and "Slim Chance" mean the same thing?
* If you choke a Smurf, what color will it turn?

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Posted by: x Foman123 x
I am not sure what you mean by this statement, but I must disagree completely with any potential implication that the solution to making spammers, flamers and other bad posters "go away" is for more mature forum members to STOP coming up with ideas to improve the forums and instead merely try to "participate in a positive way."


Posted by: Frankie
Shut up nerds!


lol.

  • 03.07.2007 2:26 PM PDT

Tom Achronos
Bungie.net Overlord
twitter: http://twitter.com/Achronos

"I have no words that would do justice to the atrocities you commit to the English language, as well as your continued assaults on the concepts of basic literacy and logical reasoning."

I wasn't referring to ideas stopping, I was referring to the group of people who are trying to manage what people say (the "bad forum cops" who don't understand what they're doing). These people seem to think controlling content is the problem, when really the problem is one of reducing the impact a bad user can have... say, by figuring out ways of measuring how much we can trust an account.

  • 03.07.2007 2:32 PM PDT
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Posted by: DEATHPIMP72
Anyone but Foman. He smells like cheese.

Ok great, I just wanted to make sure. Thanks!

  • 03.07.2007 2:36 PM PDT

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Recon, I actually believe that's a great idea. I remember reading it way back when you posted that.

I still hold my opinion; Recon, I enjoy your blabbing.

If we were to have some system in place like that, that'd be great.. Of course, I still believe that really productive members (or possibly just the old guys *cough*recon n' achilles*cough*) should get even more special privileges. (And of course they won't abuse them, or else they wouldn't have gotten them to begin with, or would have them stripped away immediately).

However, some could say a system like this is already in place, with the moderators and such.

  • 03.07.2007 3:57 PM PDT
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Posted by: DEATHPIMP72
Anyone but Foman. He smells like cheese.

Recon,

I, like Zag, remember when you posted that a few months ago. I like the idea and I have incorporated the notion of a somewhat more stratified membership structure in my "flagging" idea. You get full credit for putting the idea in the back of my mind.

Your idea of the Bungie "FAN" level of membership is similar to my "Senior Member" idea. Your other stratifications are more well-thought-out than my little idea, and also make things more objective and less of a popularity contest in terms of the basic membership levels.

I'm on board.

  • 03.07.2007 4:03 PM PDT

If you don't got it, you want it. If you got it, you want more of it. Of course if you don't know what it is, it's hard to get any in the first place.

I like the idea of placing value in members of the community in a way that doesn't promote spam.

While I like Recon's idea, maybe it can be taken a step further with regards to users who contribute positively, with a system that rewards quality over quantity.

  • 03.07.2007 4:17 PM PDT

"In order to be effective, truth must penetrate like an arrow - and that is likely to hurt." -Wei Wu Wei

Posted by: Achronos
The moderators are not here to censor content. They are here to enforce rules. You may be irritated at the constant "X-button" threads for example, but people participate in those dicussions. You are welcome to, you know, NOT click on them.

Many of you seem to have this fanciful idea that the forums would be a lot better if only we had some kind of magical system. Well, the honest truth is that if you participate in a positive way and quit trying to "manage" things, a bunch of the noise would go away. Pretty much the only problem that we need to fix is that there is no incentive to be a good member. I have ideas there. But your censorship plan is not even remotely close to something that would be a good idea for a forum of this size.



Wow, I was really just looking to start a discussion of what new format, (if any) the new Bungie.net fourms should adopt. I must not have been clear enough in the original post. I am in no way saying that content should be completly censored. The existing forum can remain exactly as they are. I am merely suggesting an ADDITIONAL PLACE where content would be screened for off topic or repetetive posts.

Allow me to explain where I'm coming from. I feel there is a big piece of the Halo community that is not participating in these forums, mostly because they refuse to sift through page after page of spam. Shouldn't we at least TRY to create a place where they would enjoy reading other peoples thoughts, and posting their own. You may say that it's not your place to control the content, but you eliminate threads you deem pointless all the time. How is eliminating a specific comment, (which is unrelated to the thread's subject) any different?

As for the one man's trash is another man's treasure arguement that Recon 54 made. I think that applies, but only to a certain extent. You can't tell me that there is an equal investment of thought and emotion in all posts. A 3000 character post about historical symbolism in Halo VS. A three line thread suggesting Cortana get naked. Which one of those posts is likely to develop a relevent response?

As for this:

Posted by: Achronos
I wasn't referring to ideas stopping, I was referring to the group of people who are trying to manage what people say (the "bad forum cops" who don't understand what they're doing). These people seem to think controlling content is the problem, when really the problem is one of reducing the impact a bad user can have... say, by figuring out ways of measuring how much we can trust an account.


I don't know if this was a direct reference to me, or people like me, but I don't appreciate the implication that my ideas have no merit because I "don't understand what I'm doing". Although it may be true that in a forum as large as this, that it would be difficult to implement EXACTLY what I am suggesting. But that does not mean it is IMPOSSIBLE to do something at least similar.

BTW, by "measuring how much you can trust a user" and "reducing the impact" that they can have. Aren't you really just censoring that person anyway? Regardless, it doesn't address the main issue.

If someone posts a brilliant thread, do we really need 3 pages of "good post man" or "ur a nubber. ARBY rules." with an occasional relevent response? Maybe in the regular forums it's unavoidable, but I'm suggesting you create a place where it's purposefully free of such distractions. Even if all you do is collect what you deem the very best posts on a given subject and put them together, updating occasionally if you find something else relevent, that would be great.

But please don't blow me off, or call me names, just because you don't like my idea. I think you underestimate how much impact on the community you could have, if you really made an effort to reach out to a more cultured mature audience. I've read some great posts on Bungie.net, but lately they seem few and far between. All I want is a place where they can thrive, and grow into a larger discussion.

  • 03.07.2007 4:29 PM PDT

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