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Subject: Elitism.

2:10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
2:11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
2:12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

Someone please give me examples of this during bungie.net's history. I'd just like to know if people are pulling this word out of their ass or not because everytime a new idea is suggested you have this one kid who always has to act like a smart ass and call elitism. In my time here I've only seen elitism once and that's when the "user since" thing was under our avatars.

So give me other examples of this please.

PS: I don't want examples of Halo things like people being better than each other in the game or whatnot. That's a different story.

Something Achilles said that I completely agree with:
Posted by: Achilles1108
I still don't get it. It seems like any type of reward on this site comes up with that. Any type of reward can and will cause it. Just because of that then we should have none? I mean come on. At this rate we are going to wind up taking everything off of the site. If people start to do that then we will just have to crack down on those people.

A little reward should be a good thing. It seems like many people are against it no matter what. With no rewards there is no weight added to an account. For quite a few people there is nothing if they lose it. If you have something that you worked hard to get you might think twice before you do something stupid and get it taken away.

I am just tired myself of seeing that keep popping up. It gets frustrating to see it holding us back from coming up with possible good reward ideas for members. I know that many people would just rather dismiss it to prevent any problems from happening but I feel it is making the site stale for ideas. I feel a basic reward system can persevere here with a little bit of help from the mods and good members.


[Edited on 3/10/2007]

  • 03.09.2007 7:06 PM PDT

Why the hell are you looking at this? Get out.

And no group invites, you jerk. I'm not interested.

[DELETEEED!!!]

[Edited on 3/9/2007]

  • 03.09.2007 7:08 PM PDT

2:10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
2:11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
2:12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

Okay let me rephrase my request. Give me examples of elitism that relates to specific features on this website. It doesn't have to be in the current time, it could be in the past too. In other words, elitism not relating to Halo.

  • 03.09.2007 7:11 PM PDT

Why the hell are you looking at this? Get out.

And no group invites, you jerk. I'm not interested.

Ah. I don't remember any.

  • 03.09.2007 7:13 PM PDT
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lets say Master Chef wanted to be an elite. He would ask achronos if he could. then achronos would say ELITISM! then achronos would ban the Master Chef permanently because elitism is bad.

  • 03.09.2007 7:37 PM PDT

2:10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
2:11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
2:12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

So the thousands of instances where one member told another to STFU because they were only a "level X" is not an example of elitism?

I think that it is a perfect example. It is a number that some have assigned so much value to that they think that it is an indicator of moral, intellectual or overall superiority. And we see it all of the time.

Well, you see, they are good examples. But not the type of examples I need to prove a point. There will always be elitism in Halo, because they will always be jackasses who get too much into the game. But when there are new topics posted in this forum suggesting a new feature for the site, there is always someone who claims that elitism will happen. It's beginning to become an annoyance, because there are hardly any suggestions that the general public accept because they all think that these suggestions will cause elitism.

So, to prove that most features would not support elitism, I made this topic to get a history lesson on the website. I want to know when elitism has occurred in the past to determine if people are pulling the word "elitism" out of their ass to dismiss any new suggestion that someone posts.

[Edited on 3/9/2007]

  • 03.09.2007 8:16 PM PDT

2:10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
2:11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
2:12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

I guess you have a point there, but not all new features would promote elitism. In a lot of suggestion threads I see at least one person call it out. Also I mentioned the "user since" thing in my original post:

In my time here I've only seen elitism once and that's when the "user since" thing was under our avatars.

[Edited on 3/9/2007]

  • 03.09.2007 8:24 PM PDT
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SPOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOON!

I see a lot of it, but its a bit subtle. If someone posts a thread in the Halo 3 forum, and its old news, they are flamed relentlessly for not being as up to date as some of the other forum goers. Similar things can happen in NM when discussing tactics, and as you know ranks.

Also, take a look at the Maw. I love that forum, and most of the people in it, but you can't deny that it is very elitist. If you don't know what you're talking about, in regards to servers, mods, etc, you will experience some condemnation.

That may not apply to your model as to why some new features might not work, but its a start. It is evidence of elitism. And, if user A feels to superior to user B else because they might not know as much about a game as user A does, it could translate over to forum interaction too. We don't see all the potential elitism in your model, because most everyone on this site is intentionally kept at the same level as everyone else. Because of that, we have not had many tests, with the notable exception of the join dates. And we all know they did in fact inspire elitism.

Separating people's stature from one another can, and sometimes will, cause people to feel superior. Its just human nature. So, if there is a possibility of elitism happening because the implementation of a new feature, its at least worth talking about.

  • 03.09.2007 8:42 PM PDT
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The Marty Army

Ah, look at the lonely people...

Any time you have any sort of organization where a great amount of people are on the same level, there will always be those who try to gain superiority over the rest of the people, as false as that superiority may be. Simply put, I don't see a way to solve elitism, other than handing out banhammers for it.

  • 03.09.2007 8:54 PM PDT
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The Frozen Minority - The most infamous clan borne from the Seventh Column.

Elitism is the cover word for competition too much on this site. No competition = no motivation= stagnation. I think elitism is something bred into us, like xenophobia - neither are any good but they will never be removed completely, we can't live in fear of these two ugly parts of the human brain and let them prevent us from advancing.

People just need to grow up and
a) Not be elitist, condescending bigots
b) Learn to deal with those who fail to break point 'a'.

Of course, whenever I see someone openly being a jerk, talking down to other members, such as the join dates and Halo 2 level's, I would be quick to remove them.

  • 03.09.2007 9:02 PM PDT

If you don't got it, you want it. If you got it, you want more of it. Of course if you don't know what it is, it's hard to get any in the first place.

From my understanding there was a little elitism between the Myth TFL and Myth 2 crowds, (with TFL mad at the SB crowd, and General Rank whoring in the SB crowd) but not much more than that.

But in general I think a great example of Elitism lies in the Halo 2 sucks/ MLG crowd. Need I say more on that?

Personally, I can testify to a tad bit of elitism. I often look upon parts of the Halo crowd with a little disdain, mainly with regards to many of them being Halo fans instead of Bungie fans. But then I calm down, and sit in a plush Armchair in my study, sipping congiac, while I sit there looking over my stocks, and imagining the praise a 10 year old account will garner. Elitism, nay I say.

  • 03.09.2007 9:05 PM PDT

Posted by: WolfmanMaverick
You people have just sent my sides into orbit. A bunch of MLG try hards sucking the dick of some supposed pro half the thread hasn't even heard of. Classic.

Posted by: WhiteRaven119
Simply put, I don't see a way to solve elitism, other than handing out banhammers for it.


Well I for one do not mind doing that. I think quite a few members just want some new stuff to happen on this site.

I think it would be just like a symbol of pride if people got little achievements for doing good on this site. Kind of like on 360 games.

The key would be to choose ones that inspire good conversation and are not easily gotten. Also if the people who get them decide to show elitism that they can be stripped of it and have to work even harder to get it back.

I am not sure how to implement it but saying it would cause elitism and dropping the subject does not do much good. All it does is turn people off to discussing ideas that might actually spark a bit more life into the community and possibly make people stop coming to this site all together.

If we can't hear out somebodies idea and try to discuss it by pointing out flaws and offering solutions I feel pity for all of us. All we would be doing is slowly killing the community.

Just my late night tired rambling.

  • 03.09.2007 9:10 PM PDT

2:10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
2:11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
2:12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

I am not sure how to implement it but saying it would cause elitism and dropping the subject does not do much good. All it does is turn people off to discussing ideas that might actually spark a bit more life into the community and possibly make people stop coming to this site all together.
It seems like you and I are on the same page. This was my point but I couldn't put it into words, really...

  • 03.09.2007 9:15 PM PDT
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  • Exalted Mythic Member

KOTOR | The WarriorsI'll chain you to the truth for the truth shall set you free
I'll turn the screws of vengeance and bury you with honesty
I'll make all your dreams come to life, then slay them as quickly as they came

I agree with Achilles and Zero. Any recent idea in here has been struck down by the phrase, "It would cause elitism to spread." It's almost like a default message that members use to make themselves sound good. It's annoying and I'm tired of it. I haven't seen any form of elitism on this site since the Member Since was removed from posts. Granted I don't step foot in the Halo themed forums for obvious reasons, but if it's there, then it's usually dealing with something like Halo 2 levels or MLG/EGL tourney placings. If the system itself was hidden, like the levels to your next reward for example, then it would work well.

  • 03.09.2007 11:14 PM PDT

No signature found. Click here to change this.

I surmise individuals employ the locution "elitism" due to the certainty that said individuals are under the impression that it makes them sound perspicacious.

: P

  • 03.09.2007 11:22 PM PDT

SB-117

Well for a start all the "floodians", all the people in the Maw, Septagon etc. seem to think their forum is the best because they've formed a tight-knit sub-community.

Here's one example just from a thread I locked before:
Posted by: lpjuunin
I half-expected a "i told you not to flame too much lpjuunin!", but hey, I guess the Maw really is the best forum. =D


People have included moderator quotations in their signatures simply because the aforementioned Ninja thought "<insert forum> was probably one of the most organised or best behaved" etc. They wear that signature as a trophy.

It's a commonly accepted fact that most people here see the Halo 3 as a spam-pit, beyond repair. That is not the truth, that's just elitism. Many users enjoy the Halo 3 forums (hence its overwhelming popularity).

I don't think I even need to explain The Flood forum because of how relaxed that place is.

Groups are constantly down eachothers throats, with "take over"s and bickering because they think their group is better. MBT for example (as well as others) believe their member count gives them "Status" (therefore making it superior to groups with "lower status"), which is of course... utter crap.

Lastly, the Halo examples are completely relevent anyway. It is a feature, that can be viewed from the site in order to compare rankings and stats; much like any member "reward" ideas that are suggested. It will be EXACTLY the same. People don't have to blatantly say "STFU! My e-Peen is clearly bigger!" in order for elitism to breed.

We don't all say to flamers and trolls "Hey! Shut up, you moron!", but we don't have respect for people who ruin the forums. A user can just as easily have no respect for another member (undeservedly so) simply because they prefer to post in forum/group they consider to be pointless, or because they hold a different opinion. It doesn't have to be visible in order to be present.

The main problem with elitism isn't the final outcome of someone blatantly yelling, it's the hostility on the boards and the grudges held that prevent a friendly community (which later leads to yelling once tempers are lost).

[Edited on 3/9/2007]

  • 03.09.2007 11:45 PM PDT
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Very well said ash55, but you left out one important ingredient...Spartanism. You may not recognize this terminology, but it does play a part in ending Elitism. Spartan warriors were taken at young ages to be trained for battle. They were put in school at age 7 to begin focusing on physical peakness, committed to understanding rank, and following orders. The education and active military service would end at age 30. The training of the phalanx resounded the idea of "no soldier being superior to his comrades".

If this Spartan military life is the overall "vision" of the Bungie Army, then we are doing as we should. With no outside enemy threatening a Bungie customer, the customer is free to join an inside group to combat within the confines of the Halo universe. Bungie itself is the comparison of Sparta and the gaming business. It competes against, and claims to protect the gaming community with it's massive following. We are not trained to be elitist, we are coaxed; gently shoved into the elitist behavior that fuels Bungie. If it weren't for Elitism, I would say that Halo would not be the great hit that it was and is.

  • 03.10.2007 12:12 AM PDT

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Posted by: ash55
Groups are constantly down eachothers throats, with "take over"s and bickering because they think their group is better. MBT for example (as well as others) believe their member count gives them "Status" (therefore making it superior to groups with "lower status"), which is of course... utter crap.


God I hate how everyone uses that when they know nothing.

Yes, there was a time when people at MBT were all about members. But not anymore.

So unless you know what your talking about, which you obviously don't, please don't use examples.

Damn forum wide stereotypes.

  • 03.10.2007 12:33 AM PDT

I'll be on my own side.

It's relevant because it is (or was) a perfect example of the issue at hand at one point in time.

  • 03.10.2007 4:02 AM PDT
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* Member since.

* Post counter.

* Flood vs New Mombasa.

* There was a time that Septagon regulars were blamed for being elitist.

* Halo 2 stats/levels.

Those are five things I can think of straight away.


  • 03.10.2007 4:39 AM PDT
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Posted by: Chinpokomon
lets say Master Chef wanted to be an elite. He would ask achronos if he could. then achronos would say ELITISM! then achronos would ban the Master Chef permanently because elitism is bad.

lollin' over here.

  • 03.10.2007 4:59 AM PDT

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