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Subject: Elitism.
  • gamertag: iam117
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The Frontline - A group dedicated to help improve the forums as a whole.

Posted by: ash55
Besides, (this is the most important part) how is a "Trusted Member" medal a reward anyhow? It does nothing. The only purpose it serves is to make the user think he is a better member because the icon says so. There are far better rewards out there that have no potential for elitism, so why not develop the discussion to work the problem out?

I will start this by saying explicitly that I don't support this idea at all, but I think some things should be pointed out.

Yes, the idea of this proposition is that it's a "reward". However, in opposition to what you've said, I wouldn't say that it would make people big-headed and egotistical at all as they're the ones who've been selected for this role. If this is done manually then I don't see any more risk in these members being caught exercising their newly acquired rank unduly more than I would a mod. These people would be selected for their decent nature and you'd hope that enough thought would be put into the process that not any old tyke would be assigned a "Trusted Member" title.

  • 03.10.2007 8:08 PM PDT
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Posted by: ash55
Individual forums form private, tight-knight, elitist communities.


Which is absolutely not true.

I've flicked between just about every forum in my time here, and the simple fact is that those forums are so fluid that they dont have time to form tight-knit communities. This is mainly due to the fact that there's no incentive to stay, hopefully will be sorted in some genius manner by Achronos in the new hotness, but, could easily be sorted by people occasionally crawling outside their groups and into the light to do something else in public other than whining about how people never leave their little cliques, or how they're sick of b.net and are leaving, or how they think they should form a council of trusted members, depending on which flavour this month holds. The public posting rate from the long-term (2 years +) members is so abysmally low its laughable, and i know its not due to inactivity, plenty of those members are still active in groups (often just sitting there whinging about the public forums).

iam was exactly right in saying elitism is only viewed from the outside, most of the problems actually arise from those outside, looking in, thinking theyre above what's going on in the forum, refusing to participate and then just leaving, probably to whinge in the septagon. Only you can prevent forest fires; the best way to stop whatever kind of crap you're opposed to, and i'm not actually sure what it is, though i'm sure there's some sort of activity in those forums you dislike, is to get in there, get your hands dirty, and change it.

And as for the "Trusted member" title, it already exists, you can see it shining out there beneath your name. Unless, of course, you feel yourself above the latter half of that title.

(edit: yeah, sorry for the rambling, its 4am.)

[Edited on 3/10/2007]

  • 03.10.2007 8:09 PM PDT

MY LOVE FOR YOU IS LIKE A TRUCK...
Posted by: Langley
--on another note, I think MLG Chewhatever is an idiot.

Posted by: Achronos
There is a reason I am user ID 1 and my account creation date is before this site came online.

Alright, here are my views on this subject, and I find it rather funny that someone made this thread before I did. (I was talking to Ash about this very subject a couple days ago).

I'm going to put myself out on a limb here, but I'm going to be honest. So bear with me, and don't dismiss my post by the first few comments. It's long, I know, but it's really what I feel about the subject.

I think we should be elitists on this site. I for one, am one. You know what? I think that I post better topics and responses than most people on this site. Does that necessarily mean that I'm wrong, or it's wrong that I feel that way? No, because I'm right. I do make better posts than the vast majority of people on B.net. Now, do I think that other people shouldn't make posts on here because they don't post like I do? No, of course not. But if I can back up an opinion, and you cannot, most would agree that my statement is better. That's just how things work. Sorry if that is news to most people.

Having a system that is completely without elitism is impossible, and not only is it impossible, it is completely unpractical. To have a system that is completely free of elitism would be to take out the human element of this system, and that would make us all drones. People can be elitist about anything. I think I have a better name than you Spartan117071282. You might think you have a better name than me, big friggin deal.

This is how I look at it. Elitism is a part of life, get used to it now. I mean seriously, everything in life deals with elitism, and it is something that cannot be avoided. I am currently in Graduate School. Why? It's not only because I strive for a better education, it is because when I apply for a job, I will say, "I am better qualified than those other people because I have more education!" Same thing goes for which university I go to. Why do I pay almost double for classes at my university than for another school? Because my university is better, and when I graduate my degree will be more "valuable" than the people who went to the other school. Why does your boss tell you to go fetch his coffee and bagel? Because he has a higher position than you, and like it or not, he can do that.

If we are trying to make B.net unelitist, we are kidding ourselves and creating a huge dichotomy. Without so-called elitism, basically we are making a "communistic" society. No one person is better than the rest, and anyone gets exactly the same. This idea might sound ideal, but it stiffles a lot of things, one of which is genuine production. I'm not trying to make this a political system argument, but it lends itself well. If we are all equal, and nothing becomes of any additional work we might do for the community, what is the incentive to work for anything? We "languish" as GJJ so eloquently put it in a thread long since gone. Why take the time to be helpful? You might genuinely want to help out for a while (like I do) but eventually that feeling begins to wear out without some sort of confirmation that your actions are appreciated. The people who really want to be creative helpful productive members of the community are going to "burn-out" eventually and the community will be worse for it.

I think that there should be rewards on B.net for us "Normies". Some little perks that keep us involved with the community. A little "pat on the back" from time to time. I don't think that they should be controlled by the "normies", but they should be controlled by Mods/Online Team. And I think that they should be seen by all members. A "veteran member" or "helpful member" status instead of "member" under your B.net name.

But OMGorz!! what if someone with the "veteran member" starts toting it like the red badge of courage and talking down to everyone without one. Well, obviously they don't deserve it and should be dealt with by the mods/community team. And if they have that "veteran" or "helpful" member status, and they get hammered for talking down to someone or using it as leverage in an argument, they should be dealt with much more harshly than just an "average" member. If they've been around long enough to earn one of those titles, they have absolutely no excuse if they behave badly in a forum. Not only do you have a "higher" title, you also have a "higher" responsibility. Seriously, I can't wait for the first time someone has "veteran member" and he/she tries to use it as basis for an argument! When they get knocked off their "high horse" hopefully they'll learn their lesson.

I for one, actually liked having the "member since" things under everyone's profile because it gave me a general idea about a user. If I see that they joined up last week, and post something in the wrong forum, I'll say "hey, you probably don't know this because you're new; but your thread is probably gonna be moved to X forum because that's normally where discussions like this go." Now if it is from a member who's been here for a while, I'll just report the thread to the mods and move on. But I also understand that immature people where trying to use that as leverage in arguements. How does when you joined the website have anything to do with an argument or the validity of your idea? Actually have someone who joined up more recently might be a better thing because they haven't become assimilated like the rest of us have. Having a older member since date is exactly like having a higher rank, it just means that you've spent more time doing something. Having a higher rank than me doesn't mean you are better than Halo 2 than I am, it means that you've played more than I have = big freakin' deal. Just because I have an older member date than you just means that I've been around B.net longer than you; not that my ideas are any more valid than yours (well based solely upon that fact).

I think that rewards should be a thing on B.net, and I know that Achronos has talked about it repeatedly in the past. What is going to happen is that the vast majority of people aren't going to have them, or aren't going to have them for long. Other websites have used them and had mixed results. I think that they could be effective here on this site. I think that Achronos and the online team should be able come up with an effective way of doing something like this.

Elitism necessarily isn't a bad thing, being an ass-clown is. Just because I think I make better posts than people doesn't really effect what I'm saying any more or any less. Now, if I would start talking down to someone saying that they aren't entitled to their opinion, than I've crossed that line over to ass-clownville!! I just see elitism as a part of life, something that has to be understood and worked with, instead of just blindly avoiding it. B.net will never be free of elitism, and that necessarily isn't a bad thing. Degrading members is a bad thing. However, you can degrade people in a wide variety of ways, and being an "elitist" is just one of those ways. Not all elitists are bad, and not all ideas or suggestions should automatically be thrown out because they might create an elitist enviroment. If you want to avoid and elitist enviroment, I would suggest never going into the real world.

Final thought (I'm almost out of characters left) just because some members might act like ass-clowns if they were given a "veteran member" title, doesn't mean that no one should be allowed to have it. Chances are the people that end up having that title are the ones that deserve it, and wouldn't use it to be condescending to another member anyways. So what is the problem with them having it?

Humbly your local Elitist,
~BerserkerBarage

  • 03.10.2007 9:34 PM PDT
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Destinypedia - The Wiki for Bungie's Destiny
Posted by: DEATHPIMP72
Anyone but Foman. He smells like cheese.

BerserkerBarage-

Very well-written post, and I agree with you.

I'd like to add two more things:

1) I do not think that people should be stopped from toting out the "elitist" attack on new ideas in the Septagon. But they should be highly encouraged to explain it. In my "flagging" idea thread (front page of this forum), somebody brought out the "elitist" word but did not back it up with any arguments or support. Nevertheless, I responded with several reasons why the idea would still work and why elitism would not affect the idea. There have been no counter-arguments, and thus my idea is still a valid and a good one.

I do not see the "elitist" argument as being one that "instantly" shuts down a new idea - notwithstanding the fact that this is certainly how it's intended. Good ideas, inevitably, will withstand this gauntlet and many others within the crucible that is The Septagon.

Instead, my biggest concern is that people should be discouraged from just yelling "NO! ELITIST!" in response to a new idea. Come up with some ARGUMENTS, people, and let others respond to them.

2) I really hate to point this out, but I think it's true: rewards to members that are VISIBLE and PUBLIC are more effective than rewards that are HIDDEN. Can you imagine if the Oscars were not televised or publicized, but the winners got access to their own club where they could hang out and talk to each other? Of course not... the publicity is PART of the reward. If you want to encourage members who are on the edge to really try harder to make better posts, you will not see effective results if you only give them extra site content as a reward. To get truly impressive results, you have to give them some kind of public recognition for their efforts.

To point out something once again that I've pointed out before - such rewards would only be given to posters who deserve them. And the posters who deserve them will not be the types of people to turn it into some kind of superiority contest. The proof of this is in the moderators. I can honestly say that I have never seen a moderator say that he was better than someone else because of his bungie.net status. There is no reason to think that other members of the site cannot handle a similar, but lesser promotion.

Ironically, it is "elitist" in and of itself to say (or imply) that a MODERATOR can handle a very public promotion with grace and class but that someone ELSE cannot.

[Edited on 3/11/2007]

  • 03.11.2007 1:28 AM PDT
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Talk to the Soul | ~B.B. | Know Your Duardo |  | Hero | ISFJ | 77135 | 94371

"It's not who I am underneath, but what I do that defines me."

I've seen a lot of elitism during my time here. Sadly, I've seen a certain ex-moderator flaunt that he was an ex-moddie, so therefore, his post is more important than anyone elses and he makes newer members think that he knows what he's talking about. Elitism will come no matter what is added or taken away from this site. As a previous post said, "...it's human nature."

Elitism is a part of human history. Whites being better than anyone else because they have white skin; German N@zi's (sry for bypassing the blam filter) thinking they are better than anyone else because they are German's; religious groups thinking they are right and anyone else is wrong; the list goes on and on.

We cannot stop elitism, but we can make sure it's under control. I think that is what Achronos is trying to do. He just needs a little bit of help, so he gets moderators to control the forums (and elitism). Hopefully when the new design of the site launches, elistism will only be a memory of the past.

  • 03.11.2007 11:23 AM PDT

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