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  • Subject: The 7th Column, The Community, It's Guy, and The Lack There Of
Subject: The 7th Column, The Community, It's Guy, and The Lack There Of
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  • last post: 01.01.0001 12:00 AM PDT

Posted by: x Foman123 x
Being a reader, I am always inclined to read carefully written and long posts with much more interest and care than a short post. This post was no exception, and I read the whole thing carefully. Please keep that in mind as you read this reply further.

I am going to disagree with those people who say it is well-written. But to be fair, I write persuasive and argumentative pieces for a living; my standards may be a bit high.

I want to respond at length to this rant, and although I know that anything more than three paragraphs long on these forums is unlikely to be read thoroughly, I believe that most of the Septagon knows my posts well enough for this to catch your attention.

Throughout this post, I will refer to "you." When I say that, I am referring to the original poster - not snowman, but whomever he posted for.

This Is Not the Bungie Soap Opera

I am too old for the social games we all used to play in high school. I remember them well, and your rant smacks of trying to revive or transpose them onto a video game developer's website.

I resent you for attempting to do this. And I think that "resent" is possibly not strong enough a word. I resent you and anybody and everybody else who feeds into this for attempting to turn a fun and lighthearted way to kill time during my workday into a horrifying, juvenile, intimidating melodrama.

I am in my late twenties, a fully grown man with an undergraduate and a graduate professional degree. Despite the large amount of time I spend here, perhaps I see things through a different lens, as my job takes me all over the world and my co-workers and clients are people with real power - CEOs of some of the world's largest corporations, politicians with names that I guarantee you would recognize, and attorneys/judges who have helped to mold and change the laws that affect our daily lives. So excuse me if I fail to see how becoming or not becoming a moderator on Bungie isn't the most important goal in the world.

I was popular in high school, as I was an all-star football player and a straight-A student, so please don't think that I am simply being a "sore loser" when I say that I was thrilled to leave the gossiping, sophomoric, worthless discussions that my "popular" friends got into far behind. Your attempt to revive this kind of false social hierarchy on this website is offensive beyond words to me.

Perhaps I am being a bit harsh. I do not want to sound dismissive. The following statement will sound like a cliche, but I say it honestly and from the bottom of my heart: I believe that you have seen too many episodes of "The Real World" and its ilk. It must be realized that this is not a reality TV show or a soap opera, and we are not actors in a melodrama.

When viewed through the lens of melodrama and politics, everything seems to have more weight and impact. When it comes down to it, this is a video game website. Even being a moderator is not "real" power - it is perceived power. Sure, they can ban you, or whatever, and they get special text, but when it comes down to it, a moderator is still a guy just sitting at his computer - just like you.

You claim that you were "used" as someone else's springboard to power. In keeping with this "soap opera" theme, you seem to feel betrayed and dismayed by some other unnamed person's promotion to moderator over you.

Well you know what? Boo hoo. I -- along with many other non-moderators who post regularly in the Septagon -- would love to become a moderator. I have a genuine interest in the Community and I am a huge Bungie fan. I do what I can to help the Community, trying to come up with new ideas, post intelligently at all hours of the day and night, discuss others' posts thoroughly using logic and reason rather than emotion and insults, pass along "bad posts" to the forum moderators, and even help Gods Prophet to run The Guide, so that new users just getting involved in the 7th Column have a place to go to find interesting information, reviews, and interviews.

I have done what I can to distinguish myself in this Community, and I think that I would make a great moderator. I could lay out the reasons here, but I do not feel that this is the appropriate place to engage in shameless self-promotion. Instead, my point is to say that if I never "get the promotion," I will not feel slighted or betrayed in any way. I do not want to be a moderator for the power, but rather to help the Community. And that is what YOU and every other person in this Community (moderators and regular members alike) should similarly desire. As long as someone is helping to clean things up and keeping things active and intelligent, I will be happy to spend my free time here on bungie.net. Moderator or not. I do admit to wanting to become a moderator, but not for power reasons. Rather, to help this FUN and ENTERTAINING WEBSITE be more interesting.

You haughtily refer to a 7th Column "aristocracy" and "upper class," using the words that you know have a negative connotation in order to imply your apparent disapproval of this stratification. You seem to forget that even you admitted that some people who post here are morons and some are clearly more intelligent than others. I see absolutely nothing wrong with attempting to distinguish oneself by posting intelligently, nor with preferring to associate and identify with peers who one sees as similarly intelligent or creative. To do so does not mean that you are elitist, but rather that you prefer to a have a place on bungie.net where you do not have to wade through forum games, spam, and classified ads just to find an intelligent and meaningful discussion.

If you turn these forums into some kind of ridiculous false power game, you will inevitably start to see ghosts that are not there and feel betrayed if you are not the individual to "rise up the social ladder" (or however you put it).

The Latest Batch of Moderators

I must forcefully and emphatically disagree with any notion that the "latest batch" of moderators is some kind of failure. Such a statement or implication is an obscene miscarriage of the truth - even if it IS based entirely on some anonymous person's subjective ideas of what makes a good moderator.

In my role for The Guide, I have had the opportunity to have extremely in-depth conversations with many of our forum moderators. I have asked them pointed and blunt questions and seen nothing but a genuine desire to help the Community. I know what power-hunger looks like, and I also know that a person who is truly power-hungry will not be drawn to a video game website. What you find in the more distinguished ranks of the Bungie Community are people who genuinely want to help and exchange thoughtful ideas, and make things easier for all to navigate. That is what it IS and SHOULD BE about. Nothing more.

The moderators whom I have interviewed for the Guide have not only said that they have a genuine interest in helping the Community, but proved it by being ruthless but fair in locking bad threads, banning bad users, and contributing to the Community in wholly meaningful, intelligent, and helpful ways.

I am not an ass-kisser, and make no mistake: I am not going to be kissing the ass of some person who is ten years younger than me merely because they type in white text. But I am going to be fair. And that means calling you and your false statements out for the self-serving, despicable lies that they are.

Conclusion

In conclusion, I believe that you feel pretty great about yourself after writing this. It seems to me that the primary purpose of the post is not motivated by a desire to help the Community, but rather a desire to make yourself feel self-righteous about the fact that you are not a moderator. Ironically, you not only had no choice in not becoming a moderator, but you even wanted it badly enough to feel betrayed when someone else became a moderator over you.

I despise this thread because it adds nothing to the Community and nothing to the fun and entertainment value of bungie.net. Instead, this thread attempts to take something fun and entertaining that I love and turn it into the halls of my high school / a reality TV show.

For this reason, I will not be responding any further in this thread. Instead, I'm going to head over to the Halo 3 forum and discuss X Button theories and graphics. This thread cannot and will not take the fun of the Bungie website away from me.


Quoted for truth. I could not agree more with this post, even tho I could never post with as much eliquence and style as Foman.

This site is supposed to be fun, and you are turning it into a reality show. Please, please, please stop.

[Edited on 3/14/2007]

  • 03.14.2007 11:05 AM PDT

Sandswept Studios Design Director

Visit us and check out our games at Sandswept.net!

~~Pardon Our Dust.~~

Posted by: Code Zero
Posted by: Frankie
Shut up nerds.

This quote gets to me because everyone seems to find it funny. I guess it's kind of funny, coming from Frankie. Pretty random. Also ironic. But still, if any regular member would have said this it wouldn't get nearly as much publicity.


Well, I'm not sure if you saw the thread, and what it was about.. But it was pretty funny.

Yes, if it was any other member, no one would care, but isn't the topic starter here (or whoever they're posting through/for/becauseofthatfavortheydidfortheirmom) saying they want more activity from them? In a sense, he's also just caring only because they're Bungie employees.

[Edited on 3/14/2007]

  • 03.14.2007 11:27 AM PDT
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Posted by: ash55
You don't have to be a Bungie fanboy drone for you to be a respected member (or at least I hope...) Debate and difference of opinion is what drives the forum, not "LoLz Shishka! PWN'T!". I think whoever wrote this doesn't have much faith in the moderators to differenciate an obvious (or subtle) "brown-noser" from someone who can actually be trusted.


You're spending far too much time hiding in your groups if you honestly think that.

  • 03.14.2007 11:30 AM PDT
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The Marty Army

Ah, look at the lonely people...

I totally agree with the bit about Bungie-contracted community people spending more time at HBO than the forum they've been contracted to work on. That makes no sense to me.

Also, I think all of these shenanigans are a bit out of proportion here; this post makes it seem as if we're dealing with dirty politics, not a web forum. Granted, this might be important to some, but I don't think as many people need to get as worked up as they are over it.

  • 03.14.2007 11:31 AM PDT

2:10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
2:11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
2:12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

Posted by: elmicker
Posted by: ash55
You don't have to be a Bungie fanboy drone for you to be a respected member (or at least I hope...) Debate and difference of opinion is what drives the forum, not "LoLz Shishka! PWN'T!". I think whoever wrote this doesn't have much faith in the moderators to differenciate an obvious (or subtle) "brown-noser" from someone who can actually be trusted.


You're spending far too much time hiding in your groups if you honestly think that.

Well it's pretty much true. How much do you respect nameless random people who comment on every little joke a mod makes? I don't even know the names of these people, let alone respect them. It happens far too often, though.

  • 03.14.2007 11:32 AM PDT

If you don't got it, you want it. If you got it, you want more of it. Of course if you don't know what it is, it's hard to get any in the first place.

I'm not going into semantics on the OP, because I think he outlined alot of concerns that many members are concerned over, and his subsequent posts and response from GJJ discussing the Column and Bungie involvement are great.

Frankly, Elitism happens. I'm guilty of "being an upper class "snob"" I suppose. I hang out in the underground and Septagon, and I avoid New Mombassa, Optimatch, Halo 3 forum, and the Flood. I hide in groups on the off days when the forum is slow.

I stopped postin those forums when I began to feel that it was all pointless. The users continued to discuss things that had already been answered, and reanswered, and answered into oblivion. There is little thread progression, because they all decide that the world needs just one more "cheaters OMG Bungy Ghey" or "DO you think tThe Pistle shuld reeturn?" Or the great "Mstee Cheif vs Marcuz Fenixks" threads. So I stopped trying.

I'm a "good Member" nowdays by spending my time making sure the Septagon and Underground have things to discuss and talk about.

Frankly, more than anything in t he world, I would just like to play some rounds of Halo with Bungie. It's been a fevered dream of mine since I became a Bungie addict.

Currently I'm trying to organise a minor Seventh Column meet at PAX 07'. Perhaps instead of -blam!-ing about the lack of fan events, maybe you could try helping me out?.

  • 03.14.2007 12:00 PM PDT

SB-117

Posted by: elmicker
Posted by: ash55
You don't have to be a Bungie fanboy drone for you to be a respected member (or at least I hope...) Debate and difference of opinion is what drives the forum, not "LoLz Shishka! PWN'T!". I think whoever wrote this doesn't have much faith in the moderators to differenciate an obvious (or subtle) "brown-noser" from someone who can actually be trusted.


You're spending far too much time hiding in your groups if you honestly think that.

I thought long and hard (I really did try), but I have no idea how hiding in groups relates to my post. Please explain.

Also note, I hardly ever post in groups recently. It's all university work and MMO addiction (I'm trying to stop!) that eats my time unfortunately.

[Edited on 3/14/2007]

  • 03.14.2007 12:01 PM PDT
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  • Elder Mythic Member

It dosent ash, hes just trolling.

  • 03.14.2007 12:22 PM PDT

Veteran member of The Frozen Minority.

I feel that we in the Frozen Minority are being personally attacked and I do not understand why this is still going on. If we (members of the Frozen Minority) attacked somebody like you are, it would have been locked and we'd get banned (like what happened a few weeks ago when I was banned for a week for jokingly attacking Nosferatu Soldie while intoxicated).

So, could somebody please tell me why this idiot who I've never heard of before is getting so much attention from this personal attack?

  • 03.14.2007 12:27 PM PDT
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Posted by: Code Zero
Just read it and I can say now that it is a very good read. I wasn't informed that some moderators -- selected before my time, were only selected because they were friends with Bungie or their mods.


help, im being opressed.

[Edited on 3/14/2007 by ash55]

  • 03.14.2007 12:46 PM PDT

Veteran member of The Frozen Minority.

This snowmanaxe1654231 is probably sittin' there thinkin', "mmm ya my thread is popular now". What a sicko this guy is. Sitting there, touching himself to the thought that his thread about how the community has gone down hill is becoming a hot item. Touching himself thinking about how he's probably on his way of getting Achronos to quote him and make a witty comment about it.

But do you know who's really excited about all of this? The sicko who's behind this whole attack. The person who's probably not man enough to step forward and admit he's the one who's really behind this. He's sitting there thinking, "mmm ya snowman's done an excellent job of attacking the Bungie community and alienating the Frozen Minority, let me just sit here and rub myself while I describe what I'm doing to myself a loud". What a sicko this person is. Sitting there, describing what he's doing to himself. Sitting there, wishing he was a weird mix of male, female, and Covenant. Sicko this person is.

  • 03.14.2007 12:46 PM PDT

Sandswept Studios Design Director

Visit us and check out our games at Sandswept.net!

~~Pardon Our Dust.~~

Posted by: Jeff McRae
So, could somebody please tell me why this idiot who I've never heard of before is getting so much attention from this personal attack?


I think it'd be better of you to ask 'this idiot' to let us know who he is. It's pretty cowardly to come out and attack a large portion of the community under some other alias, or through someone else.

Of course, if they want to keep it that way, it's not like we can really stop them, but they're sure receiving far less respect for it. If I had a concern and/or problem with the community, I'd just post it under my name, since it'd be my concern and/or problem.

  • 03.14.2007 12:47 PM PDT
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Posted by: SS_Zag1
I think it'd be better of you to ask 'this idiot' to let us know who he is. It's pretty cowardly to come out and attack a large portion of the community under some other alias, or through someone else.

Of course, if they want to keep it that way, it's not like we can really stop them, but they're sure receiving far less respect for it. If I had a concern and/or problem with the community, I'd just post it under my name, since it'd be my concern and/or problem.


It seems clear that the OP is just miffed that hes not a moderator, yet those vagabonds from the jumpers and TFM are.

((edit so my post has a point : And he thinks stating his opinion will harm his chances.))

- even though being in those groups would have nothing to do with it, and i laugh when people think were some super secret club with a moon base.

[Edited on 3/14/2007]

  • 03.14.2007 12:53 PM PDT
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Oops!

[Edited on 3/14/2007]

  • 03.14.2007 12:53 PM PDT

I do think the writer makes a few valid points, but for the sake of not writing a huge post (I just took a Practice OGT Writing Test - don't really feel like writing anymore), I'll keep words down to a minimum.

Almost everything I wanted to say has been stated in some shape or form already, but I'd just like to say a few things:

1. More Community Interaction from Bungie is needed.
* However, right now, they are hard at work making Halo 3. It's expected that they might not be able to surf the forums as much, as they probably have lives after work, and don't want to sit in front of a computer screen all day.

2. Repeat Topics
* There are lots of repeat topics, as I'm sure everyone knows. Before the Search Feature was introduced, these were somewhat tolerated, since the person posting perhaps missed the first topic, and it may be all the way on page 10. However, since we now have that ability, people seem to think that every repeat topic can be prevented using the search feature. This is not true. Some topics, such as Halo 3 BETA topics, can be prevented by searching. Other topics cannot. (Sorry, don't have a specific example for that one)

3. Credit where Credit is due
* I agree, this is a large problem. Some members just don't get it. For Example:
* Recently, a member (won't say who) joined my group and wanted me to join his. So I did. Now, my group has a thread with a long list of confirmed facts about Halo 3. (Compiled by Spec_Ops_Assault, by the way, and several people added to it, but it was really mostly him.) Now, this person found this thread "helpful," so he posted it in his group, giving no credit to anyone originally involved. He figured since he added a few things from Wikipedia, he had helped, and therefore had the right to do this. Only after bringing this to his attention was I able to get him to credit those who originally created it.
* This isn't to say that all members are like this, however. I have been hosting the ModStalk program on a computer at my house for about a month now, and added a few things. Kd5shw has given me credit for this, but he is still known as the person who wrote most of the program, and is the one who started it.

So yes, I agree this community needs cleaning up, but it's not all bad, and it's not beyond repair.

  • 03.14.2007 1:01 PM PDT
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Read about the Forgotten Spartan I Program
Butane: To protect the world from devastation!
sir_brilliant: To unite all people within our nation!
Rainman89: To denounce the evils of truth and love!
sir_brilliant: To extend out reach to the stars above!
SpaceGhostFlyer: Jessie!
Butane: James!
sir_brilliant: Team Rocket blasting off at the speed of light
Butane: Surrender now or prepare to fight
sir_brilliant: Meowth, that's right!

Posted by: Gendo
Posted by: Great_Pretender
PS. I would laugh so hard if this was written by JAY132 or Jeff McCrae.

Haha, i wish.

My bet is rainman or SB, silly vendettas are cool!


Aha, Gendo, If only. I will concede that I was actually talking to the person who wrote this as the first draft was written. I was the first person to see the rough drafts. At the time I did agree with many of the points, I even planned on posting the final draft myself. Then I read it, I thought about what the user had written. I realised that even though I agreed with some of the opinions, others were flat out wrong. I can't stand some people on B.net, I just don't get along with them. That, however, doesn't mean their friends don't deserve to be moderators. I'd type more, but I'm hungry...

And for clarification, the person who wrote this Is no longer a B.net Member, and that is why he had someone else do it.

  • 03.14.2007 1:02 PM PDT
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^ I meant meech, not you. woops.

Posted by: Rainman89
And for clarification, the person who wrote this Is no longer a B.net Member, and that is why he had someone else do it.


Psyched has a big 'omg im leaving forever' every few months now.
>.>

[Edited on 3/14/2007]

  • 03.14.2007 1:07 PM PDT
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Posted by: Gendo
It dosent ash, hes just trolling.


Incorrect, (well, partially).

This community is certainly not driven by "Debate and difference of opinion", but rather repeat threads, clamour for power, whines, the occasional gem of a thread and the joined love of Bungie and its works. Certain groups (naming no names here <_<) may be driven by debate, but the general community is certainly not. Saying it is is just moronity, and means you're not spending enough time outside of the groups. You yourself admitted that you're not spending enough time here, ash, so you shouldnt have made the observation in the first place.

Although, I do deride this community a bit too much, only certain, very, very, vocal sections of it clamour for power and whine. They, unfortunately, contain a high number of long-term members, which just makes it all the worse.

  • 03.14.2007 1:23 PM PDT

Strange evolution how people have come to believe
That we are it's greatest achievement
We're barely, we're just a collection of cells
Overrating themselves

Posted by: Jeff McRae
I feel that we in the Frozen Minority are being personally attacked and I do not understand why this is still going on. If we (members of the Frozen Minority) attacked somebody like you are, it would have been locked and we'd get banned (like what happened a few weeks ago when I was banned for a week for jokingly attacking Nosferatu Soldie while intoxicated).


If I knew the members of TFM were such a-holes, I wouldve asked for membership sooner!

Anyway. My take on the whole thing is this: Your point is.....?

While I admire a person who can write a book without actually saying anything, I dont really see the point of your post. Your worried so much about the "state of the community" yet you bring the community down further by posting what amounts to a "Im not allowed to be a member of TFM or any other cool Bungie groups and Frankie doesn't post enough" tantrum.

Some people here obviously know who wrote this, personnally, I dont really care. I want to come to Bungie.net to interact with the community, not participate in Geek Week on Days of Our Lives.

[Edited on 3/14/2007]

  • 03.14.2007 1:27 PM PDT
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Posted by: twinkiemaker
While I admire a person who can write a book without actually saying anything, I dont really see the point of your post.


I love this post and am going to use this line over and over from now on. <3

  • 03.14.2007 1:31 PM PDT

SB-117

Posted by: elmicker
You yourself admitted that you're not spending enough time here, ash, so you shouldnt have made the observation in the first place.

I was talking about recently. I do post quite a lot. I just don't post much in the Septagon. In the "-blam!-" forums (your words, not mine), there is actually debate for the most part (on occasion you get the odd trolls).

Even though they've been done to death, I'll take a Halo 1 vs. Halo 2 discussion over most the Septagon topics (i.e. this one).

  • 03.14.2007 1:31 PM PDT
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That rant has put many of my thoughts into words. I would call attention to my post in the 1337ists about becoming a b.net moderator(both joke and rant in one):

Kilroy's 12 Easy Steps to B.net Mod-ship!

Posted by: Kilroy
Observe:

1-Post in every thread in Septagon multiple times with "intelligent" responses.

2-Report spam threads to several of the more active Master Moderators.

3-MOAP. A lot. If you're a MOAPer, you're "in."

4-Suck up. Major.

5-Be a Jumper. A lot. If you're a Jumper, you're "in."(thanks butane :P)

Okay....So that's only like 4....so....it's EASIER than 12 steps. But yeah. If you want to be a mod, THAT'S how you do it. As you can see, I don't exactly meet those qualities, but maybe you do/want to, and can be a mod.

Be sure to remember me when you get your free schwag. :P


I feel, strongly. That suckups are prevalent. I basically feel that that's why half(if not more), of the mods got their jobs by bein suckups.

The Toast thing....man....that guy had a temper....lol...I pissed him off so bad.....

Nos, well, he's cool. But, he seems to have dropped off the face of the earth(I blame burning crusade).

Other good mods: Recon, TGP, GP....wait....that's it....(of the ones that I know at least)

I fit in with the Septagons. I don't have time to spend hours with X button theories. I don't. Sorry guys. So I stick to the Septagon, and 4 or 5 chapters. Then I do my daily interweb rounds.

Bungie: Freakin awesome. Love the company, love the few employees I've dealt with. However, they DO NOT take care of the column. Achronos is a busy man, and he's spending a lot of time on teh newer hawtness. I have a great respect for him. Frankie? Well, his job is just to make the fanbois froth. And he is very verrrrry good at it. Sketch? Seems like a nice guy, don't really know him. But he doesn't help the column in a noticable manner. Ninja? He's cool. Tho I don't necessarily agree with some of his playlist decisions, he's a good guy and does his job. Kuniklo? Dunno what he does. Just know that he thinks chapters should go away, which enrages me. Tinman? That guy was awesome. Bungie needs to hire him on permanently.

Community and me: Well, I would be one of the "arisocrats" i guess. I pretty much only associate with my own group of friends on b.net. But that's how I roll. I have tried to be a contributing member of the community. I've gotten many of the "good idea, boss" replies to my threads, then had them vanish without a trace. I'm not gonna make the call on whether I'm a good guy or not. I'll just keep doin my thing.

Once again. I don't approve of the crappy forum copping. I used to forum cop. And these guys are a disgrace to the title. Not sayin I was mister perfect, but I (for the most part) gave good advice, i think. And then I came out with my "rant" about proper forum copping, which helped none, apparently.

That's my two cents for now.

  • 03.14.2007 1:37 PM PDT
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  • Elder Mythic Member

Posted by: Kilroy

Once again. I don't approve of the crappy forum copping. I used to forum cop. And these guys are a disgrace to the title. Not sayin I was mister perfect, but I (for the most part) gave good advice, i think.


Good enough to get banned for? =D

i need to stop posting in this thread, bb!

  • 03.14.2007 1:43 PM PDT

I guess I can mainly agree with Iceman. This is a community forum and some folks just take it too seriously. I can see how it appears that there is a form of heirarchy on this site but only if you let their image prevail. Maybe its just because I haven't been as active lately. To perhaps appropriately quote Shishka: This thread makes my eyes hurt (and gives me a headache).

I suggest to any well-doing member to keep a box of salt near whenever reading any post for need of a grain. Too anyone who says Frankie and KP are too active on HBO and not here, well, try becoming a member of that community as well and it won't seem so inclusive. I have to admit, that community(though it is really only a part of the greater Bungie community) does seem to do a lot more community "stuff" than here. And you can't blame that on anything to do with moderators. Bah! What do I know?

On another note, I used to think TFM was just another group here on Bnet until I learned you started as a clan. I even tried to join once. Guess it wouldn't be much of a minority then, huh?

  • 03.14.2007 1:53 PM PDT
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Posted by: Kilroy
1-Post in every thread in Septagon multiple times with "intelligent" responses.

2-Report spam threads to several of the more active Master Moderators.

3-MOAP. A lot. If you're a MOAPer, you're "in."

4-Suck up. Major.

5-Be a Jumper. A lot. If you're a Jumper, you're "in."(thanks butane :P)

Man, I didn't do ANY of those things!
-TGP-

  • 03.14.2007 1:57 PM PDT