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  • Subject: Reputation System
Subject: Reputation System

Fight hard, break bones >{o

There is a prototype algorithim that is on the site right now (that has no consequences, it just scores accounts) that is rating people's actions today.

ahhh, you sly fox!

  • 03.26.2007 3:31 PM PDT
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This, if done right, sounds like an awsome idea. I would loved to know who's posts I should take seriously just by, say, waving my mouse over their avatar? That would make the sig box a more prominant feature in the forums, but not so much as to take attention away from the post. Win win maybe?

  • 03.26.2007 4:28 PM PDT
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Posted by: Achronos
Ah, but you don't have to "get it" for the system to do its job. There is a prototype algorithim that is on the site right now (that has no consequences, it just scores accounts) that is rating people's actions today. But, you wouldn't know that if I hadn't said so. And that's the point - not even the moderators would need to know such raw information.

Any system that uses a "rating" of a user must not allow subjective input. That also has a side benefit - users don't have to understand how their actions affect things, because they aren't actually doing anything. Ideally, even the rewards for good behavior appear to be given out magically, other than the fact that you haven't broken any rules lately.

Posted by: Kilroy
I'm not quite sure that I "get it," achronos. Maybe due to my stupidity, but I'm not quite sure what you mean.

Guess I'll just wait another 5 years for such a system to actually be implemented.


I'm not sure I can see how such an automated system could be made, unless you're grouping users into bad and not bad camps, rather than bad, average and good. Otherwise you need to make a value call on the contribution of each member that just can't be done fairly by algorithm unless you've got some nifty sentient code running here - and I don't think the Soul counts.

Then again, do you really need to differentiate between anything more than bad and not bad? I suppose if you want to stop people from just opening another account then you do.

  • 03.26.2007 5:33 PM PDT

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I think that it sounds great, a lot of sites have these. But I think that there is one problem, if a friend decides to help another friend by boosting his rep, what can anyone do?

  • 03.26.2007 5:48 PM PDT
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SPOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOON!

Posted by: dillon899
I think that it sounds great, a lot of sites have these. But I think that there is one problem, if a friend decides to help another friend by boosting his rep, what can anyone do?


Achronos seems to be talking about a rating system, which does not rely on any active user input, but raw data. So, if he does implement something like he described, no one could ever boost anyone else. They can't see what their "rating" is, and no one but the initial user would be able to affect it. It seems to be more "cause and effect" than "karma", as superfluous as that sounds. Rather than rating someone by other user's input, it would rate them buy whether or not they have been in trouble lately.

At least, that's my interpretation.

I'd love to see something like this implemented, but I don't really have too many problems with the current system, or lack of a system to be more specific. I'll continue reacting to things the way I always have. Business as usual FTW!

[Edited on 03.26.2007 5:59 PM PDT]

  • 03.26.2007 5:58 PM PDT

Tom Achronos
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"I have no words that would do justice to the atrocities you commit to the English language, as well as your continued assaults on the concepts of basic literacy and logical reasoning."

Ah, but it can't work that way - you won't be able to see that information. The point of such a system is that it should be a background agent, reducing the impact of bad users and giving a little positive reinforcement to positive posters.

Posted by: X 10000 Fists X
This, if done right, sounds like an awsome idea. I would loved to know who's posts I should take seriously just by, say, waving my mouse over their avatar? That would make the sig box a more prominant feature in the forums, but not so much as to take attention away from the post. Win win maybe?

  • 03.26.2007 7:10 PM PDT

Tom Achronos
Bungie.net Overlord
twitter: http://twitter.com/Achronos

"I have no words that would do justice to the atrocities you commit to the English language, as well as your continued assaults on the concepts of basic literacy and logical reasoning."

You're right - an automated system cannot make value judgements about the content of posts... but it can use information about an account to determine a different thing: trust. It is entirely possible for the system to make an educated guess as to how "trusted" you are. By this, I mean it can look at the sum of your history here and decide "hey, this guy is a troublemaker" or "hey this guy gets warned every once in a while, but is otherwise okay" or "this guy is squeaky clean".

Remember, the purpose would be to try and make sure that someone can't escape their past, even if they create a new account. The tricky part is to make sure it is newbie friendly - that real new users aren't screwed by protections against spammers. However, I have an idea about that, but I'll keep that to myself for now.

Admittedly, the math is quite complex, but that's why it is in prototype state right now, just collecting data. I hope that eventually we'll be able to tweak it to be fair, and then turn the consequences on. Of course, it is entirely possible that it won't ever work well enough to my satisfaction, but we won't know unless we collect the data. :)

Posted by: Sir Fragula
I'm not sure I can see how such an automated system could be made, unless you're grouping users into bad and not bad camps, rather than bad, average and good. Otherwise you need to make a value call on the contribution of each member that just can't be done fairly by algorithm unless you've got some nifty sentient code running here - and I don't think the Soul counts.

Then again, do you really need to differentiate between anything more than bad and not bad? I suppose if you want to stop people from just opening another account then you do.

  • 03.26.2007 7:18 PM PDT

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Posted by: Achronos
Ah, but it can't work that way - you won't be able to see that information. The point of such a system is that it should be a background agent, reducing the impact of bad users and giving a little positive reinforcement to positive posters.

Posted by: X 10000 Fists X
This, if done right, sounds like an awsome idea. I would loved to know who's posts I should take seriously just by, say, waving my mouse over their avatar? That would make the sig box a more prominant feature in the forums, but not so much as to take attention away from the post. Win win maybe?


So if I understand correctly this system would work very much like the Agents in [u]The Matrix[u]? Secretly spy on us to keep track of us, see how we progress, and then take action based on that information?

  • 03.26.2007 7:18 PM PDT
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Posted by: Achronos
You're right - an automated system cannot make value judgements about the content of posts... but it can use information about an account to determine a different thing: trust. It is entirely possible for the system to make an educated guess as to how "trusted" you are. By this, I mean it can look at the sum of your history here and decide "hey, this guy is a troublemaker" or "hey this guy gets warned every once in a while, but is otherwise okay" or "this guy is squeaky clean".

Remember, the purpose would be to try and make sure that someone can't escape their past, even if they create a new account. The tricky part is to make sure it is newbie friendly - that real new users aren't screwed by protections against spammers. However, I have an idea about that, but I'll keep that to myself for now.

Admittedly, the math is quite complex, but that's why it is in prototype state right now, just collecting data. I hope that eventually we'll be able to tweak it to be fair, and then turn the consequences on. Of course, it is entirely possible that it won't ever work well enough to my satisfaction, but we won't know unless we collect the data. :)

Posted by: Sir Fragula
I'm not sure I can see how such an automated system could be made, unless you're grouping users into bad and not bad camps, rather than bad, average and good. Otherwise you need to make a value call on the contribution of each member that just can't be done fairly by algorithm unless you've got some nifty sentient code running here - and I don't think the Soul counts.

Then again, do you really need to differentiate between anything more than bad and not bad? I suppose if you want to stop people from just opening another account then you do.


Protecting new users should be fairly easy. There can always be a trial period for new members or a way that they can work off their bad karma. Thanks for working to improve the system. This will be interesting when you unveil it.

  • 03.26.2007 7:21 PM PDT

Tom Achronos
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"I have no words that would do justice to the atrocities you commit to the English language, as well as your continued assaults on the concepts of basic literacy and logical reasoning."

No, more like a silent observer, building a file on you. Except, of course, that we already have that file (in our database), and this is just writing an executive summary of it for use in deciding if you meet criteria for positive reinforcement (rewards)... most negative reinforcement already exists.

The best part is that giving rewards to good users is itself a measure of trust - if someone tries to be elitist about it, well... rewards can be taken away if you don't deserve them. :)

Posted by: Zee JollyRoger
So if I understand correctly this system would work very much like the Agents in [u]The Matrix[u]? Secretly spy on us to keep track of us, see how we progress, and then take action based on that information?

  • 03.26.2007 7:25 PM PDT

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Posted by: Achronos
No, more like a silent observer, building a file on you. Except, of course, that we already have that file (in our database), and this is just writing an executive summary of it for use in deciding if you meet criteria for positive reinforcement (rewards)... most negative reinforcement already exists.

The best part is that giving rewards to good users is itself a measure of trust - if someone tries to be elitist about it, well... rewards can be taken away if you don't deserve them. :)

Posted by: Zee JollyRoger
So if I understand correctly this system would work very much like the Agents in [u]The Matrix[u]? Secretly spy on us to keep track of us, see how we progress, and then take action based on that information?


The system wouldn't be able to remove these rewards since it can't judge the posts? They would have to be removed manually by someone with such powers such as moderators and admins, wouldn't they?

If so, it could take a lot of time if many people decide to act that way.

  • 03.26.2007 7:29 PM PDT

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Posted by: Achronos
No, more like a silent observer, building a file on you. Except, of course, that we already have that file (in our database), and this is just writing an executive summary of it for use in deciding if you meet criteria for positive reinforcement (rewards)... most negative reinforcement already exists.

The best part is that giving rewards to good users is itself a measure of trust - if someone tries to be elitist about it, well... rewards can be taken away if you don't deserve them. :)

Posted by: Zee JollyRoger
So if I understand correctly this system would work very much like the Agents in [u]The Matrix[u]? Secretly spy on us to keep track of us, see how we progress, and then take action based on that information?


Very interesting system you have in progress. I'm sad to say that I am in the shadows, as I love to fully explore the inner workings of "things." I can't wait to see the potential benefits of this system if it "gets off of the ground," so to speak. Now I have reason to believe that I'm truly being watched...by Ninjas.

Edit: I'm sure that the Soul could deal with removing rewards, he tought Shishka that tears are like candy.

[Edited on 03.26.2007 7:30 PM PDT]

  • 03.26.2007 7:29 PM PDT
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Posted by: Zee JollyRoger
Posted by: Achronos
No, more like a silent observer, building a file on you. Except, of course, that we already have that file (in our database), and this is just writing an executive summary of it for use in deciding if you meet criteria for positive reinforcement (rewards)... most negative reinforcement already exists.

The best part is that giving rewards to good users is itself a measure of trust - if someone tries to be elitist about it, well... rewards can be taken away if you don't deserve them. :)

Posted by: Zee JollyRoger
So if I understand correctly this system would work very much like the Agents in [u]The Matrix[u]? Secretly spy on us to keep track of us, see how we progress, and then take action based on that information?


Very interesting system you have in progress. I'm sad to say that I am in the shadows, as I love to fully explore the inner workings of "things." I can't wait to see the potential benefits of this system if it "gets off of the ground," so to speak. Now I have reason to believe that I'm truly being watched...by Ninjas.

Edit: I'm sure that the Soul could deal with removing rewards, he tought Shishka that tears are like candy.


The ninjas are watching us.

  • 03.26.2007 7:31 PM PDT

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What kind of rewards are we talking? Cause it seems to me it just watches what you post and knows about what can be a good post, a bad post or an ok post. It also seems to possible have to much power. The last thing I want is some big brother watching me post. Of course you are way more qualified than me........so you know what you are doing. Good luck though.

  • 03.26.2007 7:38 PM PDT

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My turn to ask a question Achronos, if that is your real name..

Can you give us some examples of what these "Rewards" would be? You keep saying rewards but.. What does that mean? I'm very curious now. :P

[Edited on 03.26.2007 7:44 PM PDT]

  • 03.26.2007 7:44 PM PDT

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Posted by: SS_Zag1
My turn to ask a question Achronos, if that is your real name..

Can you give us some examples of what these "Rewards" would be? You keep saying rewards but.. What does that mean? I'm very curious now. :P


my guess would be...well, i don't know.

I do fear eletism going on if someone has a higher rank, i would prefer it if only mods and other people that are "special" rank people; in a non-biast fashion ofcourse.

  • 03.26.2007 7:48 PM PDT
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Posted by: Sparten457
Posted by: SS_Zag1
My turn to ask a question Achronos, if that is your real name..

Can you give us some examples of what these "Rewards" would be? You keep saying rewards but.. What does that mean? I'm very curious now. :P


my guess would be...well, i don't know.

I do fear eletism going on if someone has a higher rank, i would prefer it if only mods and other people that are "special" rank people; in a non-biast fashion ofcourse.


Ask not what Bungie can do for you, but what you can do for Bungie. I care much more about B.net having fun, friendly forums than any kind of rewards we can get. If anything leads to elitism, then it is a problem. However, I trust Bungie to implement a smart system.

  • 03.26.2007 7:51 PM PDT

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Posted by: natedogr
Posted by: Sparten457
Posted by: SS_Zag1
My turn to ask a question Achronos, if that is your real name..

Can you give us some examples of what these "Rewards" would be? You keep saying rewards but.. What does that mean? I'm very curious now. :P


my guess would be...well, i don't know.

I do fear eletism going on if someone has a higher rank, i would prefer it if only mods and other people that are "special" rank people; in a non-biast fashion ofcourse.


Ask not what Bungie can do for you, but what you can do for Bungie. I care much more about B.net having fun, friendly forums than any kind of rewards we can get. If anything leads to elitism, then it is a problem. However, I trust Bungie to implement a smart system.


If rewards are given by PEOPLE, instead of a SYSTEM, I doubt the people would give rewards to people who would abuse them.. And if they did, they would be stripped instantly. I understand it's all about having fun, and being nice to eachother, regardless of rewards, but now that Achronos has mentioned "rewards", specifically, I'm just curious as to what that means. :P

  • 03.26.2007 8:20 PM PDT
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Posted by: SS_Zag1
Posted by: natedogr
Posted by: Sparten457
Posted by: SS_Zag1
My turn to ask a question Achronos, if that is your real name..

Can you give us some examples of what these "Rewards" would be? You keep saying rewards but.. What does that mean? I'm very curious now. :P


my guess would be...well, i don't know.

I do fear eletism going on if someone has a higher rank, i would prefer it if only mods and other people that are "special" rank people; in a non-biast fashion ofcourse.


Ask not what Bungie can do for you, but what you can do for Bungie. I care much more about B.net having fun, friendly forums than any kind of rewards we can get. If anything leads to elitism, then it is a problem. However, I trust Bungie to implement a smart system.


If rewards are given by PEOPLE, instead of a SYSTEM, I doubt the people would give rewards to people who would abuse them.. And if they did, they would be stripped instantly. I understand it's all about having fun, and being nice to eachother, regardless of rewards, but now that Achronos has mentioned "rewards", specifically, I'm just curious as to what that means. :P


I am also curious. I am looking forward to it., and I do not mean to imply that you would want the system for selfish reasons. Forgive me if I implied that.

  • 03.26.2007 8:24 PM PDT
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Posted by: spartakus14

The system wouldn't be able to remove these rewards since it can't judge the posts? They would have to be removed manually by someone with such powers such as moderators and admins, wouldn't they?

If so, it could take a lot of time if many people decide to act that way.


I don't think that it would need to be handled any differently than other acts that need to be punished. From what I gather, it seems that the system will look at the information of warnings and blacklists that a member has received, and from that it makes its decision on how "good" or "bad" they are. So if a member abuses their new rewards, they could be warned, or given a short blacklist. The system would take that into account, and punish the member accordingly. So the giving and taking of rewards would be handled within the system itself, with the usual help from moderators to give it information.

That's just what I think. And it isn't complete - something is missing. Achronos is holding something back it seems, and I don't really have any idea what it is right now. But at the simplest level, I would be willing to bed that that is the main idea. Heh... of course, I've been known to lose a bet here and there. ;)

  • 03.27.2007 12:34 AM PDT
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Posted by: Achronos
You're right - an automated system cannot make value judgements about the content of posts... but it can use information about an account to determine a different thing: trust. It is entirely possible for the system to make an educated guess as to how "trusted" you are. By this, I mean it can look at the sum of your history here and decide "hey, this guy is a troublemaker" or "hey this guy gets warned every once in a while, but is otherwise okay" or "this guy is squeaky clean".

Remember, the purpose would be to try and make sure that someone can't escape their past, even if they create a new account. The tricky part is to make sure it is newbie friendly - that real new users aren't screwed by protections against spammers. However, I have an idea about that, but I'll keep that to myself for now.

Admittedly, the math is quite complex, but that's why it is in prototype state right now, just collecting data. I hope that eventually we'll be able to tweak it to be fair, and then turn the consequences on. Of course, it is entirely possible that it won't ever work well enough to my satisfaction, but we won't know unless we collect the data. :)

Posted by: Sir Fragula
I'm not sure I can see how such an automated system could be made, unless you're grouping users into bad and not bad camps, rather than bad, average and good. Otherwise you need to make a value call on the contribution of each member that just can't be done fairly by algorithm unless you've got some nifty sentient code running here - and I don't think the Soul counts.

Then again, do you really need to differentiate between anything more than bad and not bad? I suppose if you want to stop people from just opening another account then you do.


I don't see how your comments here address Sir Fragula's observations. Exactly how often a user gets tagged as 'trouble' is still, in the last analysis, linked to the subjective judgement of those policing the site?

Don't get me wrong, I think it's a valuable idea and you admit openly that it is currently in an early prototype stage. Still, I just doubt such a system would ever work beyond a simple and crude ladder of 'often warned' to 'never warned'. In other words... surely a significant margin for interpretation and human error would still exist implicity.

I've just been sat thinking about this a little longer (i'm trying to avoid work and it seems like as good a way of doing that as any)

Anyway, the more I think about this the more I am becoming convinced that the issue here might be to reassess and redefine the fundamental character of the Bungie community. That is to say, if one is to proceed in a rational way to argue for a vibrant community, one must be by definition concerned with the politics of that community. In fact, central to the arguments presented in this thread (and many others I read on a regular basis) is a focus not on exactly how the 'community' is, or what the 'community' represents, but rather how to encourage good behaviour within a vaguely defined and generally accepted idea of a really existing community. Too terrible to contemplate is the notion that this community might in reality be more of figment of the imagination of a loose group of individuals; referred to in a kind of cathartic fashion in order to further legitimise and perpetuate its existence in their own minds

Like I say, I think more fundamental questions need to be asked. What is this 'community' we are all so concerned with enriching? For whom does it serve a purpose? Why?

These are interesting questions in my view, and ones worth pursuing.

Let us examine this existing state of affairs with reference to a point many bring up with consistent passion; that of 'good behaviour'. Many members of the community (which we shall assume here to be represented by those individuals whom have created a Bungie.net account) are most concerned with the various dramas that unfold in the forums. These concerned members, appalled by the conduct of users whom 'flame', 'troll' and commit a whole host of other crimes including 'poor spelling' and 'Bungie bashing', converge regularly to discuss these terrible actions and the detrimental effect they have on this 'community'. What if, despite the best intentions of such observers, those who commit such actions don't understand and cannot see this 'community' of which such individuals speak? Does this, perhaps, prove they have some form of delusion? Have they missed some fundamental point regarding their place here on these forums? If so... what?

That some members feel the masses on the forums are missing the point is well illustrated by this talk of 'rewards'. I think this stinks of a kind of cynical move towards coercive methods of further enforcing the 'idea of community' in the minds of those whom don't seem to be able to grasp it. As many have correctly pointed out... no doubt the 'community' would grow... at least ostensibly. One can imagine the excitement produced by chit-chat of 'rewards' for being a good Bungie.net member; witness the explosion in 'nice, polite posts'; although I'm sure spelling shall remain an issue for the more discerning members. This is the kind of false belief in two-dimensional incentives and 'performance-based' politics that so superficially glosses over substantive issues in too many of our own institutions elsewhere.... but that's a different story.

What I'm trying to say is that in order to truly address this issue one has to acknowledge and live with the fact that a) this 'community' might actually be rather small and opaque as things stand and b) that your idea of how it should function and what is acceptable shall more likely than not sound absurd to many of the other users of this Bungie.net website... whom share rather a different perspective on matters... if any real perspective at all (and here I refer to those kids who can't spell who so trouble many of the more 'serious' users)

Policing the obvious examples of rude behaviour and unnecessary trolling etc is one thing, attempting to infuse values into others minds through highlighting 'oustanding behaviour' is entirely another.


[Edited on 03.27.2007 4:29 AM PDT]

  • 03.27.2007 3:20 AM PDT
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Rep systems that I have seen on other sites always work poorly. The problem always comes down to the fact that rep is given because of the premise that it will be returned in favour. People get caught up in it and see their rep level as some sort of magical achievement. I like the fact that Bungie operates on a system where any and all "reputation" is achieved by how you conduct yourself on these forums and not by a rep or Karma counter which is always distorted by how many friends you have as members of Bungie. As well as how effectively you manipulate the rules of Karma (Rep). Well done Bungie, keep up the good work.

  • 03.27.2007 4:14 AM PDT
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Posted by: DEATHPIMP72
Anyone but Foman. He smells like cheese.

VVV, it seems like maybe you didn't read this thread through before posting.

As for Achronos' new algorithm, this is something that I've been a big fan of ever since Achronos first hinted at. I'm glad that the system is now collecting data and I hope that it is eventually perfected. I think that some subjective inputs may be necessary (at the very least, warnings and blacklistings are subjective inputs) or at least a good idea (to manually check the members who are getting higher ratings to be sure that the deserving ARE getting them and the undeserving are NOT), but overall, the idea seems great and I hope to see the system implemented soon.

  • 03.27.2007 4:56 AM PDT