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This topic has moved here: Subject: Reputation System
  • Subject: Reputation System
Subject: Reputation System

You say tomato; I say potato.

Posted by: Achronos
You're right - an automated system cannot make value judgements about the content of posts... but it can use information about an account to determine a different thing: trust. It is entirely possible for the system to make an educated guess as to how "trusted" you are. By this, I mean it can look at the sum of your history here and decide "hey, this guy is a troublemaker" or "hey this guy gets warned every once in a while, but is otherwise okay" or "this guy is squeaky clean".
If a system like this was to be created, would all blacklistings show up or just recent ones?

  • 03.27.2007 7:10 AM PDT
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Posted by: DEATHPIMP72
Anyone but Foman. He smells like cheese.

Posted by: gnome13
Posted by: Achronos
You're right - an automated system cannot make value judgements about the content of posts... but it can use information about an account to determine a different thing: trust. It is entirely possible for the system to make an educated guess as to how "trusted" you are. By this, I mean it can look at the sum of your history here and decide "hey, this guy is a troublemaker" or "hey this guy gets warned every once in a while, but is otherwise okay" or "this guy is squeaky clean".
If a system like this was to be created, would all blacklistings show up or just recent ones?


My guess is "all," but you have to remember that this would only be visible to Achronos and presumably moderators (since they can see users' histories anyway).

  • 03.27.2007 7:20 AM PDT

You say tomato; I say potato.

Posted by: x Foman123 x
Posted by: gnome13
Posted by: Achronos
You're right - an automated system cannot make value judgements about the content of posts... but it can use information about an account to determine a different thing: trust. It is entirely possible for the system to make an educated guess as to how "trusted" you are. By this, I mean it can look at the sum of your history here and decide "hey, this guy is a troublemaker" or "hey this guy gets warned every once in a while, but is otherwise okay" or "this guy is squeaky clean".
If a system like this was to be created, would all blacklistings show up or just recent ones?


My guess is "all," but you have to remember that this would only be visible to Achronos and presumably moderators (since they can see users' histories anyway).
It's not that I am ashamed. I just don't like the idea of a program judging me based on blacklistings a year ago.

  • 03.27.2007 7:27 AM PDT

MY LOVE FOR YOU IS LIKE A TRUCK...
Posted by: Langley
--on another note, I think MLG Chewhatever is an idiot.

Posted by: Achronos
There is a reason I am user ID 1 and my account creation date is before this site came online.

Gnome, I'm pretty sure that the system that tracks how many times you've been warned or blacklisted came about at the same time the site got it's makeover. So the system might not be able to see that blacklist you got a year ago. However, I have heard many Mods (and for good reason) keep track of all blacklistings they do, so informally there is still a record of any blacklisting you've received, even if it is not in the "system" per se.

~B.B.

  • 03.27.2007 8:01 AM PDT
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Considering that all flaws in current reputation systems can be traced back to users having any power over it (creating new accounts to give rep, trading rep with one another), an automated system seems like an excellent solution.

A damn tricky one, though. I guess we're lucky to have people willing to put in that sort of time. :]

  • 03.27.2007 8:06 AM PDT

Tom Achronos
Bungie.net Overlord
twitter: http://twitter.com/Achronos

"I have no words that would do justice to the atrocities you commit to the English language, as well as your continued assaults on the concepts of basic literacy and logical reasoning."

Well... yes. The system could take away awards because you'd get warned/banned by a mod for abusing them or being elitist about them. That would reduce your "trust rating", removing the rewards. As to what the rewards are... well, we have a few ideas. None of them involve custom avatars. :)

And yes, i'm being deliberately vague about both rewards and exactly how the system works... because the entire point of the system is that you don't know how it works.

Posted by: aku
I don't think that it would need to be handled any differently than other acts that need to be punished. From what I gather, it seems that the system will look at the information of warnings and blacklists that a member has received, and from that it makes its decision on how "good" or "bad" they are. So if a member abuses their new rewards, they could be warned, or given a short blacklist. The system would take that into account, and punish the member accordingly. So the giving and taking of rewards would be handled within the system itself, with the usual help from moderators to give it information.

That's just what I think. And it isn't complete - something is missing. Achronos is holding something back it seems, and I don't really have any idea what it is right now. But at the simplest level, I would be willing to bed that that is the main idea. Heh... of course, I've been known to lose a bet here and there. ;)

  • 03.27.2007 11:15 AM PDT

Tom Achronos
Bungie.net Overlord
twitter: http://twitter.com/Achronos

"I have no words that would do justice to the atrocities you commit to the English language, as well as your continued assaults on the concepts of basic literacy and logical reasoning."

Mods won't be able to see or manipulate this system directly. If they had to, then the design of the system would be a failure.

Addressing another concern - the entire point of the system is to deal with the fact that alternate accounts allow people to circumvent existing controls of bad behavior. How it will do this is somewhat... secret. The postiive reinforcement (rewards) aspect is only there because it recognizes that we don't actually give any incentive to keep following the rules other than "avoiding getting banned." But that is a secondary goal, and only works in the context of the primary design goal being accomplished, for reasons I'd rather not talk about, lest I expose too much of the black box.

I'm sorry for being vague, but I think the discussion being sparked by my comments is serving the purpose I intended it to without adding more specifics.

Posted by: Flawless Design
OK, lets think logically about the elitism points. You claim people will use a high reputation to cause problems, but the thing is that people who used it like that would get rep taken away by lower posters anyways. The only real issue in this is the creation of alternate accounts. Mods could be given the power to reset rep or to check on who it was from. Also, there could be a wait before you could give/recieve rep, something like a month to stop new accounts from being used so much.

  • 03.27.2007 11:23 AM PDT

The only awards necessary are those for excellent remarks about mothers. Everything else is useless.

  • 03.27.2007 11:39 AM PDT
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So i should probably stop intentionally annoying people on the forums? D:

  • 03.27.2007 11:59 AM PDT
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I want to thank everyone for contributing to this thread with mature responses.

  • 03.27.2007 12:49 PM PDT
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If you invite me to your group you will be blocked.

Posted by: Achronos
Ah, but it can't work that way - you won't be able to see that information. The point of such a system is that it should be a background agent, reducing the impact of bad users and giving a little positive reinforcement to positive posters.

Posted by: X 10000 Fists X
This, if done right, sounds like an awsome idea. I would loved to know who's posts I should take seriously just by, say, waving my mouse over their avatar? That would make the sig box a more prominant feature in the forums, but not so much as to take attention away from the post. Win win maybe?

I like the idea you've described, but can't we have a function to show us how "trustworthy" a member is?
And, once/if the system is implemented will it be even for everyone, or will the older, dedicated members be judged on already existing posts?

  • 03.27.2007 2:14 PM PDT

Tom Achronos
Bungie.net Overlord
twitter: http://twitter.com/Achronos

"I have no words that would do justice to the atrocities you commit to the English language, as well as your continued assaults on the concepts of basic literacy and logical reasoning."

First question: no, that defeats the point of the system. You're missing a large chunk of information that explains why, but it is a failure of the system's design if you need to see someone's trust rating (which would mean nothing to you).

Second question: Sort of.

Posted by: X 10000 Fists X
I like the idea you've described, but can't we have a function to show us how "trustworthy" a member is?
And, once/if the system is implemented will it be even for everyone, or will the older, dedicated members be judged on already existing posts?

  • 03.27.2007 4:36 PM PDT

Sandswept Studios Design Director

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I'm confused on all this. If you have an automated system doing.. something? See, the details are too vague to discuss this, almost.

I'm just thinking, isn't it a better system to have an unbiased person, such as Achronos, who I find treats everyone fairly, unless they're acting like an idiot, decide if members should recieve rewards? I can't see how an automated system can 'read' posts for good content. Seems unlikely.

Of course, I'm assuming it's not so much a 'good behavior is rewarded' system, as a 'not having bad behavior is rewarded' system..

  • 03.27.2007 4:38 PM PDT

"I pledge to punch all switches, to never shoot where I could use grenades, to admit the existence of no level except Total Carnage, to never use caps lock as my "run" key, and to never, ever, leave a single BoB alive."

2B || !2B - Why don't you look Inside the Machine?

I don't think the posts are being read Zag. Rather let's put it like this (this is how I see it, which can be totally wrong).

I believe the system is looking for your past history and run-in with Ninjas. If you are flagged for something bad then the system picks up on that and adds it to your identity file. Eventually over time if you accrue enough of these flags or warning the system will take logical decisions predetermined by the Web Team as to how to deal with you in accordance to the Rules. If you are "clean" of these flags for periods of time there would be a log in the file indicating this. Thusly the system could take beneficial actions in accordance to that giving you a reputation only seen to the Web Team.

  • 03.27.2007 4:42 PM PDT
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Also, lots of people would just do -1 to everyone. It happens on Garry's Mod, it'll sure as Hell happen on Bnet.

Automated? Can you say HACKERS?!

Ah, screw it.

GREAT IDEA!

[Edited on 03.27.2007 4:55 PM PDT]

  • 03.27.2007 4:54 PM PDT
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Posted by: AchronosPosted by: X 10000 Fists X
And, once/if the system is implemented will it be even for everyone, or will the older, dedicated members be judged on already existing posts?
Sort of.
Sort of which one..? ;]

I'm assuming the 'rewards' won't be custom titles etc. etc. that everyone can see, but things that become open to you that only you can see. As it were. Something to be proud of, and value, but that you can't show off...

  • 03.27.2007 4:58 PM PDT

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Posted by: Zee JollyRoger
I don't think the posts are being read Zag. Rather let's put it like this (this is how I see it, which can be totally wrong).

I believe the system is looking for your past history and run-in with Ninjas. If you are flagged for something bad then the system picks up on that and adds it to your identity file. Eventually over time if you accrue enough of these flags or warning the system will take logical decisions predetermined by the Web Team as to how to deal with you in accordance to the Rules. If you are "clean" of these flags for periods of time there would be a log in the file indicating this. Thusly the system could take beneficial actions in accordance to that giving you a reputation only seen to the Web Team.


That's kind of what I just said.. ;) You just elaborated more.. Still seems as if it's not as great to have a system 'grade' you on actual posting perfomance, since it can't really determine that as well as a person can. Maybe I'm just confused about how it works, and rightfully so.

Blue pill, ftw.

  • 03.27.2007 5:00 PM PDT

"I pledge to punch all switches, to never shoot where I could use grenades, to admit the existence of no level except Total Carnage, to never use caps lock as my "run" key, and to never, ever, leave a single BoB alive."

2B || !2B - Why don't you look Inside the Machine?

Posted by: SS_Zag1
Posted by: Zee JollyRoger
I don't think the posts are being read Zag. Rather let's put it like this (this is how I see it, which can be totally wrong).

I believe the system is looking for your past history and run-in with Ninjas. If you are flagged for something bad then the system picks up on that and adds it to your identity file. Eventually over time if you accrue enough of these flags or warning the system will take logical decisions predetermined by the Web Team as to how to deal with you in accordance to the Rules. If you are "clean" of these flags for periods of time there would be a log in the file indicating this. Thusly the system could take beneficial actions in accordance to that giving you a reputation only seen to the Web Team.


That's kind of what I just said.. ;) You just elaborated more.. Still seems as if it's not as great to have a system 'grade' you on actual posting perfomance, since it can't really determine that as well as a person can. Maybe I'm just confused about how it works, and rightfully so.

Blue pill, ftw.


It is like children on Easter...gather eggs and storing them in a basket. Except when the children find bad eggs they trash them. I suppose the system finds these "eggs" and stores them in a "basket." It then determines which ones are good / bad and then acts accordingly.

  • 03.27.2007 5:06 PM PDT

"Concentration is the secret of strength."
--Ralph Waldo Emerson

Posted by: EAGLES5
I just want the "member sense" date back under my name.

That was the only thing that made me feel more then just another member.


I think you mean "Member Since" Otherwise what you said made no "SENSE" lol

  • 03.27.2007 5:08 PM PDT
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Posted by: evilcam
Gz, I'd kill the whole world for you




3-19-07

Posted by: KNITEpanda
Posted by: EAGLES5
I just want the "member sense" date back under my name.

That was the only thing that made me feel more then just another member.


I think you mean "Member Since" Otherwise what you said made no "SENSE" lol


That was a bad joke : \


I'm not sure about this idea.....I just....never liked rating systems, but I would not be dismayed if it was put in tho.

  • 03.27.2007 5:43 PM PDT

Fight hard, break bones >{o

Achronos, you said there is already a system that collects data (seperate from the new thing your testing) so will people who were banned in the past start off with negetive points (or however you count it)? becuase i was blacklisted for like a day a while ago simply for posting at the exact time a mod locked a post. the mod fixed the problem (i think it was jim) but i still had the BL for the rest of the day...

so would i have negative points?

my guess to how the system would work is simply counting posts, counting violations (violating the "must wait 10 seconds before posting" or whatever, and of course all the others), and... thats about all i can really think of...
then the rewards i would guess; possible the friends/family thing? maybe mod positions, community spolights, action figures, t-shirts, gamerpoints... umm, custom avatars (lol, jk)

  • 03.27.2007 10:06 PM PDT
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The elitism argument is redundant, it leads to advancement. Although, there is a reason communism is often corrupt.

Without incentive of rewards, people won't strive to be good members. Likewise, the guy who joined yesterday to post how crappy SWAT ranked is doesn't deserve the same as the guy who has been a pillar of the community since 2003. But hey, that is just me, I would love for a proper reward system, I doubt it would turn anyone away from the site, rather it would promote active and excellent participation.

  • 03.27.2007 10:25 PM PDT

Posted by: Pezza
Without incentive of rewards, people won't strive to be good members.


Unless they are good members. ;)
Though I totally believe in positive reinforcement.

I try to be good (Up for Argument appearently) regardless of "rewards", I like to be the good guy as much as I can. Though I have to say some times it's very hard not to unleash my burning rage upon the forums. I'm not nearly as nice as I play on T.V. It's a golden rule type of thing to me. Or maybe it's the one about "If you don't have something nice to say, don't say anything at all." That said, I don't contribute very much at all, so I guess I'd fall short of any such "rewards". Maybe I'll speak up more, but that could definitely place me into the "bad" category pretty quickly. I'm really at a loss on how to take this rewards deal. Oh well. I'll bee goode better.

I wonder if quantity of posts has an effect ?

  • 03.28.2007 5:45 AM PDT

You say tomato; I say potato.

* How will the system tell the difference between a friendly message and a warnng?
* Who would be able to veiw the user's history?

  • 03.28.2007 3:43 PM PDT

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Posted by: gnome13
* How will the system tell the difference between a friendly message and a warnng?

The Soul doesn't send friendly messages.

* Who would be able to veiw the user's history?

The moderators apparently get shown a list of your history when they go to blacklist or warn you.. Sounds like the system is really nice, and helps them out a lot.

  • 03.28.2007 3:47 PM PDT