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  • Subject: Reputation System
Subject: Reputation System

If this "reputation system" were used, members would probably start turning it into an elitist kind of thing. if you dont know what elitism is, just read one of recon's posts like this one




Posted by: Recon Number 54
So the thousands of instances where one member told another to STFU because they were only a "level X" is not an example of elitism?

I think that it is a perfect example. It is a number that some have assigned so much value to that they think that it is an indicator of moral, intellectual or overall superiority. And we see it all of the time.

So, since the membership here is willing and able to demonstrate the ism with gameplay ranks.... you think that they could refrain from using some other silly value? You see, there aren't other examples because those "rankings" are deliberately absent from the site and forums.

If you are trying to say that we don't see examples because the membership won't do it, especially if we don't include MM ranks... I think that is a flawed statement.

It's like saying "show me examples of animal cruelty in this _______ country, but don't include bullfights, cockfights, or dogfights."

The desire to outdo others and to let them know that you are "better" is a key part of the Bungie demographic. That is the source of elitism. Most of the methods of demonstrating it are conspicuously and deliberately missing from this site.... and that is why it isn't always easy to find.

  • 03.24.2007 4:04 PM PDT
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Posted by: xxmuylocoxx
I am also active on clantacular and I love the rep system there. It helps me decide who I want to play with or against and who I will just ignore. One detail you overlooked is that you can only affect antoher player's rep by one point and cannot submit another one until you have rated at least 15 other people. This helps with abuse. Also, severe bad rep will get a person banned if the mods agree that the person deserves that rep. The only reason I don't know if it would work here is because players are just chatting, not competing all the time.


You made a good point there. DEMONCORPSE is the guy that runs Clantacular, and I spoke with him briefly about the Reputation System, I still don't fully understand how it works. It would serve a purpose here too, I think. Say you make a thread, asking a question that you do not know the answer to. Two people give two different answers. One of them has a positive reputation, and the other, a negative. With that information alone, who would you be more likely to listen to?

  • 03.24.2007 4:06 PM PDT
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Posted by: the art of halo2
If this "reputation system" were used, members would probably start turning it into an elitist kind of thing. if you dont know what elitism is, just read one of recon's posts like this one




Posted by: Recon Number 54
So the thousands of instances where one member told another to STFU because they were only a "level X" is not an example of elitism?

I think that it is a perfect example. It is a number that some have assigned so much value to that they think that it is an indicator of moral, intellectual or overall superiority. And we see it all of the time.

So, since the membership here is willing and able to demonstrate the ism with gameplay ranks.... you think that they could refrain from using some other silly value? You see, there aren't other examples because those "rankings" are deliberately absent from the site and forums.

If you are trying to say that we don't see examples because the membership won't do it, especially if we don't include MM ranks... I think that is a flawed statement.

It's like saying "show me examples of animal cruelty in this _______ country, but don't include bullfights, cockfights, or dogfights."

The desire to outdo others and to let them know that you are "better" is a key part of the Bungie demographic. That is the source of elitism. Most of the methods of demonstrating it are conspicuously and deliberately missing from this site.... and that is why it isn't always easy to find.


But how would elitism from a Reputation System be any different that elitism from being able to see someones join date and ranks?


[Edited on 03.24.2007 4:12 PM PDT]

  • 03.24.2007 4:12 PM PDT
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Posted by: Scythe252
This would just yield to what we don't want. The idea that one person is "better" than another person. Reputations is just a different version of your rank.

If somebody kept on bragging about they're high rep, it would go down because people would give them bad feedback.

  • 03.24.2007 4:17 PM PDT
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Posted by: xfire grunt
Posted by: Scythe252
This would just yield to what we don't want. The idea that one person is "better" than another person. Reputations is just a different version of your rank.

If somebody kept on bragging about they're high rep, it would go down because people would give them bad feedback.


People that would brag about it, wouldn't have a positive reputation in the first place. I don't think I would trust members to give feedback, because, as stated earlier, the member count of Bungie.net is immense, and a lot (if not the majority) of the community is immature.

  • 03.24.2007 4:23 PM PDT
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True about using their rep to decide who might give good advice. I also don't think the elitist thing is relevent here. People will not earn a good rep if they start flashing it around or bragging. And I agree mods or veteran members with good reps should be the only one's giving out rep. If a newer member feels he needs to voice his opinion about someone, let him pm a mod or vet and they can decide whether to leave feedback.

  • 03.25.2007 4:25 PM PDT

*Sgt

I somewhat support this, but its just that it is undoubtedly forgotten EVERY time somebody brings it up. It never goes anywhere because everyone here has such a stubborn mindset about this site (not to make that sound real bad or anything though).

  • 03.25.2007 4:35 PM PDT

It is the soldier, not the reporter, who has given us freedom of the press. It is the soldier, not the poet, who has given us freedom of speech. It is the soldier, not the campus organizer, who has given us the freedom to demonstrate. It is the soldier, not the lawyer, who has given us the right to a fair trial. And it is the soldier who salutes the flag, who serves the flag, whose coffin is draped in the flag that allows the protester to burn the flag.Father Dennis Edward O'Brien, USMC

Bungie just wants to avoid anything that may cause a conflict here.

I understand it, but at the same time a life without conflict is boring.

  • 03.25.2007 4:36 PM PDT
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Posted by: Reiginko
Good to see at least somebody takes this place seriously

I am sincerely disappointed in everyone except JIMH. JIMH, have a gold star.


',:\ IF YA SAHMELLLL

I like the current non-numerical system used on Bungie.net for a persons reputation. You know this kind. People need to stop trying to make abstract concepts into concrete data.

  • 03.25.2007 4:45 PM PDT
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Posted by: DEATHPIMP72
Anyone but Foman. He smells like cheese.

I mostly agree with Jesusismyhomey and some of the others who have posted in this thread. The reputation system that you have mentioned serves little purpose and would be outweighed by the detriments. Just knowing who to believe if two people post an answer to your question is not enough to counter the arrogance that would come with reputation settings, the people purposely trying to get really low reputations, and the people who purposely hurt others' reputations because of grudges or petty fights.

Under the current system, the "regulars," forum mods, and administrators already know who is and is not reputable. The new users and spammers don't really care. Once they decide to start caring, then they begin to look around and come to the conclusions that everyone else does.

That isn't to say that the current system is perfect. As Achronos and many others have noted, the current system does not really encourage people to be "good members" except for the slight chance of becoming a mod or the much-more-realistic good feeling that comes with being a positive and instructive role model for the rest of the community. Some people do not really care about such things, and therefore, a positive reinforcement system is definitely needed.

Once again, Achronos is working on such a system, and I think that it is great that people continue to submit ideas to encourage good posts. Your idea is a step in the right direction, no doubt, but does not really have enough "encouragement" for good posts to outweigh the negative effects, in my opinion.

  • 03.26.2007 8:11 AM PDT

Well xbox.com has forums that has a ranking system for every member in their forums. I believe the mods are the ones who decide weather or not the ranks go up.

[Edited on 03.26.2007 8:21 AM PDT]

  • 03.26.2007 8:20 AM PDT

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Giving members power to 'rate' other members is a terrible idea.

If the web team and/or moderators could give positive feedback to accounts, then that would work fine, as people who abuse such a 'privilege' or 'reward' would either not receive it in the first place, or would be stripped of it instantly.

  • 03.26.2007 8:40 AM PDT

People giving people a reputation = Bad idea

Mods/Bungie Contractors/Bungie Employees giving people a reputation = Good idea

  • 03.26.2007 8:51 AM PDT

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No matter what kind of a ranking system you have on bungie.net with all the kids and idoits on here that spam more often then not its flawed

  • 03.26.2007 8:59 AM PDT
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Posted by: BL4H00G4N4
Posted by: GoldenNinja117
I'm friends with the person that runs Clantacular.com and he has recently implemented a new feature onto the website; a reputation system.

I was talking to him in a Pregame Lobby one day, and briefly described to me how it works. Basically if someone is making good, solid posts, you can give them a +1 for their reputation. There is also an opposite effect. If you are being a real jerk, then people can give you a -1 to your reputation. I think he said that one member is allowed to "rate" another one a certain ammount of times.

I can find a plus side to this, but also a negative side, and their both the same.

New Accounts

I think this would stop people from creating new accounts all of the time, because when they start a new one, they go back to zero. But then again, people might might make a bunch of new accounts, just to rate themselves on their primary account.

It's a pretty neat feature on Clantacular.com, but I don't know what kind of a pourpose it would serve on this site.

Please tell me your thoughts.


Exactly why this wouldn't work.

-Blahoo


so make it only possible for accounts active for six months to give out +ve or -ve reputation points. if accounts are not active in this timeframe bungie purge them automatically. Sure, if people wanted to, they could create a dozen or so accounts [against the rules] and use them for 6 months to 'boost' their primary account by a few reputation points.

Basically, what i'm trying to say is the effort required to 'boost' a persons reputation automatically would far outweigh the effort required to make concise and intelligent posts [assuming you implement this time based restriction]. Not only that, if people wanted to go through with this they'd need to avoid their I.P being logged by bungie on mulitple accounts as this is against the rules and then all their accounts would be banned.

[Edited on 03.26.2007 9:06 AM PDT]

  • 03.26.2007 9:05 AM PDT
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Posted by: SS_Zag1
Giving members power to 'rate' other members is a terrible idea.


We have already established that.

  • 03.26.2007 9:06 AM PDT

Strange evolution how people have come to believe
That we are it's greatest achievement
We're barely, we're just a collection of cells
Overrating themselves

Reputation is something that is earned by an individual member based on the quality of his/her/its posts, not on an arbitrary value assigned by spammers. People already know who has a good/bad reputation without a 'score'.

"Hey guys, lets see how high we can get the reputation on my 12th b.net account."

  • 03.26.2007 9:56 AM PDT

Tom Achronos
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"I have no words that would do justice to the atrocities you commit to the English language, as well as your continued assaults on the concepts of basic literacy and logical reasoning."

But a user's reputation is not really the problem, is it? Their history of actions is enough - you can also look them up in search. We can "know" the user's reputation quite easily.

No, the real problem is that people can easily escape their history by creating a new account. Worse, said new account is exactly like an account created 2 years ago after only a few days wait period. What if we could somehow make it so users who stayed out of trouble we rewarded for doing so, and users who were repeatedly warned/banned were reduced in their ability to cause damage (spam)? What kind of rewards would be good for this? What kinds of negative reinforcement could their be?

I've said it before: systems that require manual input (so-called karma systems) are flawed and subjective. But something that is trying to measure the trust of user based on a past history of their own actions - well, that's an entirely different thing, isn't it?

An interesting idea - maybe we'll have to revisit it later. :)

  • 03.26.2007 11:45 AM PDT
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The reputation system is a very good idea, but it should have some restrictions for new members, so this is my suggestion
- Only bungie staff, overlords, ninjas and that kind of people can give the points. New members can´t until maybe 15 or 20 points, after that that people can also give the points...maybe can work.

  • 03.26.2007 12:06 PM PDT

MY LOVE FOR YOU IS LIKE A TRUCK...
Posted by: Langley
--on another note, I think MLG Chewhatever is an idiot.

Posted by: Achronos
There is a reason I am user ID 1 and my account creation date is before this site came online.

Posted by: Achronos

An interesting idea - maybe we'll have to revisit it later. :)


Frankie typed this part for you didn't he?!?! That is a blatant use of a Franky-ism and I will not fall subject to that "dangling carrot". Wait, who am I kidding, yes I will!! I wanna know ....I wanna know. Will people with negative reputations on the site not be able to post more than say 3 times per day? The suspense is killing me!!

~B.B.

  • 03.26.2007 12:09 PM PDT
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I'm not quite sure that I "get it," achronos. Maybe due to my stupidity, but I'm not quite sure what you mean.

Guess I'll just wait another 5 years for such a system to actually be implemented.

  • 03.26.2007 2:21 PM PDT

Fight hard, break bones >{o

all of these system could work inside groups. if we were allowed to set what we want in the group, as admins, then we could pratically create our own site (only with less work and more fancy!).

everything from custom avatars to reputation systems could work if they were limited to groups. even the bigger groups like MBT and PF would have an easy time of managing these systems. if you could simply set what appears (for example, karma system, join date, custom avatar/bungie avatar, etc) then there would be no need to clog the forums with the same ideas that have been presented since '04.

if thats too much work, i'll understand, but i still dont see elitism as that big of a problem. at least on the other site; most of the people who posted in the public forums and were mean, were either new to the site, or just didn't explore it much. these people never tried to show 'elitism' with their join date or group status, but simply attacked people to be a-holes, without any real style. elitism is usaully only shown by total idiots and when they do try to point to their join date, they only make themselves look bad. i liked the join date, becuase it let me know who should know better, who will know better, and who is likely an alt and i should watch in my group.

i think the bnet community deserves a little more credit. of course there are 'conqs' and spammers and the like, but sensible and even most of the community (at least the chapter portion), can handle the responsibility of being appropriate. so my vote would be no powers and the simple focus on posting in the public threads, but some customization and tools for the groups.

[Edited on 03.26.2007 2:59 PM PDT]

  • 03.26.2007 2:55 PM PDT

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Posted by: Achronos
But a user's reputation is not really the problem, is it? Their history of actions is enough - you can also look them up in search. We can "know" the user's reputation quite easily.

No, the real problem is that people can easily escape their history by creating a new account. Worse, said new account is exactly like an account created 2 years ago after only a few days wait period. What if we could somehow make it so users who stayed out of trouble we rewarded for doing so, and users who were repeatedly warned/banned were reduced in their ability to cause damage (spam)? What kind of rewards would be good for this? What kinds of negative reinforcement could their be?

I've said it before: systems that require manual input (so-called karma systems) are flawed and subjective. But something that is trying to measure the trust of user based on a past history of their own actions - well, that's an entirely different thing, isn't it?

An interesting idea - maybe we'll have to revisit it later. :)


If a user is warned/banned for spamming/other rules take away abilities for a while. Currently people can make an unlimited # of posts with 7(?) threads per day, if a member is warned multiple times for spam, reduce the # of posts/threads they can make. the more warnings for spam they get the less they can post until they reach 0 in which they get banned for a month.

  • 03.26.2007 2:58 PM PDT

Tom Achronos
Bungie.net Overlord
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"I have no words that would do justice to the atrocities you commit to the English language, as well as your continued assaults on the concepts of basic literacy and logical reasoning."

Ah, but you don't have to "get it" for the system to do its job. There is a prototype algorithim that is on the site right now (that has no consequences, it just scores accounts) that is rating people's actions today. But, you wouldn't know that if I hadn't said so. And that's the point - not even the moderators would need to know such raw information.

Any system that uses a "rating" of a user must not allow subjective input. That also has a side benefit - users don't have to understand how their actions affect things, because they aren't actually doing anything. Ideally, even the rewards for good behavior appear to be given out magically, other than the fact that you haven't broken any rules lately.

Posted by: Kilroy
I'm not quite sure that I "get it," achronos. Maybe due to my stupidity, but I'm not quite sure what you mean.

Guess I'll just wait another 5 years for such a system to actually be implemented.

  • 03.26.2007 3:17 PM PDT
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I think a reputation system should exist only if it's like the Official Xbox Forums. Other users can't prefer you, and your rank is judged on the quality of your posts.

  • 03.26.2007 3:21 PM PDT