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  • Subject: A Complaint
Subject: A Complaint

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This is a rare occasion, but I actually have a complaint about the Bungie.net community. This has nothing to do with the website at all, but rather, its people.

In the ten months I have been on Bungie, I've learned a lot about the community, how to deal with people here, and much of that is applicable in real life. The community here can be a very fun people, a very enjoyable people to be around, but only under certain circumstances. The case in point: mainly the Septagon.

A previous thread has highlighted this, but I feel the need to put in my own opinion. Not to mention, that if I were to post in said previous thread, I'd probably get my ass handed to me on a silver platter, which is actually something I'm going to get to in this.

Upon Brian Jarrard's arrival to Bungie, and his placement as "Community Guy", he immediately described the community as "brutal", if my memory serves me correctly. I think that serves as a testament to my point.

The Bungie community will be a very good community, as long as you're on their side. If you agree with what they agree with, you'll be best-est friends forever-est. However, if you disagree with them in any way, shape or form, you will be stripped of your rank of "Human Just Like Everyone Else", and in return be labeled "Public Enemy of the Day".

The same punishment will also be employed in the event that you make the slightest mistake. Necropost, BLAM! Your ass is fried for the entire day.

In my time in this community, I have tried to avoid said punishment, but it is an ordeal to. In recent times, I've found the best way to steer clear of this brutality is to simply not come to the website. Which explains why I have been so inactive as of late. I've found that I really don't feel like being grilled, deep fried, and wrapped in bacon for making a simple mistake, or disagreeing with Big Brother, so I've simply stayed away from it all. I'd rather not, I'd like to be active in the community, and play along, but it's becoming increasingly difficult in time.

Which brings me to the point of all this. A vast majority of the community here is overly sensitive and overly caring of others' problems or mistakes, and I'm tired of it. I enjoy the humor of the community, but it can be quite difficult to find this humor through all the criticism and judgement. Judgement is a good word to use in this situation. For, I've found that this community can also be overly judgmental. Many people here are the type to mutter the word "Slut!" under their breath as someone walks by so it's inconspicuous, but the person it's directed to can hear it.

I think the community needs to calm down about these small matters, and take it as it is. There's no sense in crucifying someone for posting in the wrong forum, is there?

Now, I can clearly see that this thread will be very prone to finger-pointing, and in which case, it will end up with middle fingers missing, broken bones, a few dead people, and some very tired moderators, so please try to keep the discussion tame and refrain from finger-pointing or anything of those likes.

  • 04.03.2007 5:29 PM PDT

Old school Bungie, born and raised,
In the Septagon is where I spend most of my days.
Relaxin', maxin', posting all cool,
Talking about Halo, life and some school.
Got in one little argument, and the mods got scared,
they said "You're gonna get banned and your member title'll be bare!"

It's easy to disagree with people, so long as you label it as opinion or back it up with proof...

  • 04.03.2007 5:42 PM PDT

Proof there is a God.
My RT account page.
My Grifball user page.
So if you really want to get to know me, you're welcome to add me anywhere.

I came to practically the same conclusion. I started being active in the Halo 3 forums, but I later found the Septagon to be more... forgiving.

As long as you stay out of Halo 3 and The Flood, everyone seems to be fairly rational.

In other words, I love the Septagon.

  • 04.03.2007 5:58 PM PDT
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Matt, I know exactly what, and which, thread you are talking about; or at least I think I do.. So, I ask you, can one not disagree? Can one not "stand out from the others"? I have done it, and you have as well. It isn't the way the community takes it, it is how you comprehend it. The thread you speak of, it does not matter what the community as a whole thinks, it is what you think. It does not matter that someone calls you a "Slut" under their breath, it is how you perceive it. My point being, that the community can only be "brutal" if you perceive it as such. Now, if you perceive it as a wonderfully happy place with pixie dust and unicorns, then the community will be as such. It is all about the view of the community, nothing else. Stand out from the crowd, who cares!? We are all civilized people here, let us debate instead of argue. The thread you speak of, it was a debate, agreement to disagree mostly, but a debate none the less. It is just that you did not take action and voice your opinion on the issue. It is that you did not continue to improve of your idea. It is the fact that you saw everyone disagree, and then ran away. Yes, this community can be harsh; but if you stand your ground, you will gain far more respect than just running away.

  • 04.03.2007 6:07 PM PDT

See the blue bar? Now zip it son!

Once I believed I could see the world, then I saw the bus fare...

Two Fat Gamers

Sad to say but some people are just like that. I ran into a few not an hour ago. It's better to stay in The Septagon. I go to the Halo 3 thread and try to keep my posts as nice as possible. Better to shrug it off. I mean it's just some strangers.

[Edited on 04.03.2007 6:09 PM PDT]

  • 04.03.2007 6:07 PM PDT

Why the hell are you looking at this? Get out.

And no group invites, you jerk. I'm not interested.

The community sucks and is a model of how stupid the whole world is; yeah, we get it already.

I've been here even longer than you have and the stupid people making hillariously stupid posts is what makes it addictive. There's always some retarded argument going on.

  • 04.03.2007 6:08 PM PDT

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Posted by: M3 Roki7
Matt, I know exactly what, and which, thread you are talking about; or at least I think I do.. So, I ask you, can one not disagree? Can one not "stand out from the others"? I have done it, and you have as well. It isn't the way the community takes it, it is how you comprehend it. The thread you speak of, it does not matter what the community as a whole thinks, it is what you think. It does not matter that someone calls you a "Slut" under their breath, it is how you perceive it. My point being, that the community can only be "brutal" if you perceive it as such. Now, if you perceive it as a wonderfully happy place with pixie dust and unicorns, then the community will be as such. It is all about the view of the community, nothing else. Stand out from the crowd, who cares!? We are all civilized people here, let us debate instead of argue. The thread you speak of, it was a debate, agreement to disagree mostly, but a debate none the less. It is just that you did not take action and voice your opinion on the issue. It is that you did not continue to improve of your idea. It is the fact that you saw everyone disagree, and then ran away. Yes, this community can be harsh; but if you stand your ground, you will gain far more respect than just running away.


I am not referring to any one circumstance in particular. I'm referring to the entire community in general. Look at the bigger picture, the grandiose scheme of things.

  • 04.03.2007 6:15 PM PDT
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Posted by: Mattbluhalofan
I am not referring to any one circumstance in particular. I'm referring to the entire community in general. Look at the bigger picture, the grandiose scheme of things.

Yea, I ended up catching that just after I posted it, however, I did not fix it for one reason alone; my post can still be valid in this situation. The same thing applies, just not in a singular thread. The whole,"The community is how you perceive it." deal. That was my main point with that post. It can be brutal, it can be cruel, but it can also be a haven.

  • 04.03.2007 6:19 PM PDT

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Posted by: M3 Roki7
Posted by: Mattbluhalofan
I am not referring to any one circumstance in particular. I'm referring to the entire community in general. Look at the bigger picture, the grandiose scheme of things.

Yea, I ended up catching that just after I posted it, however, I did not fix it for one reason alone; my post can still be valid in this situation. The same thing applies, just not in a singular thread. The whole,"The community is how you perceive it." deal. That was my main point with that post. It can be brutal, it can be cruel, but it can also be a haven.


Yes, I understand.

However, that argument doesn't always hold up. If you're living in a place where there's shootings on an hourly basis, and people are constantly being killed and injured, you aren't going to see that as a hunky-dory place. Now, that is an exaggeration, but the point remains. It's not always based on perception. There are times when it is what it is.

  • 04.03.2007 6:25 PM PDT
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Posted by: DEATHPIMP72
Anyone but Foman. He smells like cheese.

Posted by: Mattbluhalofan
The same punishment will also be employed in the event that you make the slightest mistake. Necropost, BLAM! Your ass is fried for the entire day.

I have found the aforequoted statement to be the truest and most verifiable one of all in my own personal experiences. I recall a thread one time where I advised somebody to buy an XBox 360 now because the price might go up next holiday season. I got blasted for two days in that thread because, apparently, the retail price of a gaming console has never risen post-release. I have made other, similar mistakes and been similarly flamed even after admitting the mistake.

It feels crappy, to be sure, and I feel terrible for the people who make such mistakes on a regular basis or shortly after joining the Community. I try to point out mistakes in a polite manner, but good example-setting rarely catches on around here.

As Achronos and wiser regular users have stated many times before, a system is certainly desireable -- if not needed -- to encourage good posts and punish bad ones. It is far too much strain on the mods to ask them to discipline every user who is outright rude. Moreover, such discipline only results in negative reinforcement anyway, which I always understood to be the least effective kind of reinforcement. This is all not to mention that punishing such posts might possibly be unfair to certain particular rude users whose conduct might be "close to the line," where some users go unpunished for similarly rude posts.

At any rate, merely mentioning this situation is a step in the right direction, but the next step to truly cut down on this Community's perceived "brutality" is to come up with a viable solution. Merely telling somebody that they are rude and should calm down has been proven here to have little to no effect (although I must admit that, one particular grumpy Monday morning in the office, a friend here on the b.net forums pointed out to me that was being overly rude in some of my responses and it had an effect on me immediately).

This "problem" needs an affirmative solution if it is to be fixed.

I have previously argued for user stratification (call it "rankings" if you wish) where some users would have a different title than regular member and potentially more privileges as well as more responsibilities. I believe that the benefits of a well-designed system would far outweigh the detriments, which could be minimized through foresight and good planning.

Other posters here in the Septagon have had different and equally well-thought-out ideas (nota bene, I am still partial to my own! haha). But whatever "good poster encouragement" system Achronos eventually has in mind for this site, I am sure that it will help to cut down on the problem you complain of significantly.

In the meantime, we should all try to set a good example and give our own positive reinforcement to good posts, such as posting politely, PMing "good" posters to let them know we appreciate their ability to refrain from flaming, and responding positively to "good posts" in the other forums. Those users may eventually "pay it forward" by doing similar things. That should make a small dent in the "brutality" juggernaut, and until the new Achronos-patented system is implemented, a small dent is better than none at all!


Edited for typos

[Edited on 04.03.2007 6:32 PM PDT]

  • 04.03.2007 6:28 PM PDT
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well well halo peeps ive been here since i dont know when, been playn halo1 online since april of 2002 (XBConnect), halo 2 since its launch and i gotta tell ya all, state your mind and opinion just as long as it the truth, because they cant do anything about the truth...now can they, so tell them off, state your opinion etc, let your voice be herd and never ever shut up for nobody just as long as its the truth bro, the TRUTH WILL SET YOU FREE...omg i gotta go now.

  • 04.03.2007 6:29 PM PDT

See the blue bar? Now zip it son!

Once I believed I could see the world, then I saw the bus fare...

Two Fat Gamers

Hugs all around guys.

Well said Foman!

  • 04.03.2007 6:33 PM PDT

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Posted by: x Foman123 x
I have previously argued for user stratification (call it "rankings" if you wish) where some users would have a different title than regular member and potentially more privileges as well as more responsibilities. I believe that the benefits of a well-designed system would far outweigh the detriments, which could be minimized through foresight and good planning.


Your idea has good spirit, but knowing this community, it will just be a huge opportunity for

*hides behind shield*

elitism.

In the meantime, we should all try to set a good example and give our own positive reinforcement to good posts, such as posting politely, PMing "good" posters to let them know we appreciate their ability to refrain from flaming, and responding positively to "good posts" in the other forums. Those users may eventually "pay it forward" by doing similar things. That should make a small dent in the "brutality" juggernaut, and until the new Achronos-patented system is implemented, a small dent is better than none at all!

I try to employ that. If a user helps me out with something, I will generally PM them a thank you, or if someone posts something that I think is just all-around clever or good, I'll send them a "Kudos" PM.

  • 04.03.2007 6:35 PM PDT

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Whoa, whoa, I see a few too many things wrong with ou's post.

Posted by: ou
i gotta tell ya all, state your mind and opinion just as long as it the truth,


You may as well say "Do whatever you want, as long as I approve of it". If you "say whatever you want, only as long as it's the truth", you aren't really saying whatever you want, are you?

because they cant do anything about the truth...now can they, so tell them off,

This has nothing to do with "winning arguments", or "being right", this is about the community being too judgmental and rude.

let your voice be herd and never ever shut up for nobody just as long as its the truth bro

That is one of the most twisted things I have ever heard. "Say anything you want, and never shut up, as long as you're right!". That's way wrong. You should voice your opinion regardless of its merit. What you're saying is almost the equivalent of saying that if you aren't right, you don't deserve to speak.

  • 04.03.2007 6:40 PM PDT

Tom Achronos
Bungie.net Overlord
twitter: http://twitter.com/Achronos

"I have no words that would do justice to the atrocities you commit to the English language, as well as your continued assaults on the concepts of basic literacy and logical reasoning."

One point of advice - remember who you are talking to.

In this case, it is a forum of (presumably) people who play or have opinions on Bungie games. That includes you, the poster, any readers of your post, and anybody who replies (which is not necessarily the same set as those who read your post, unfortunately).

Why is this relevant? Well, context is key. Because you're all in the same "class" of users (even if you had different titles like "Veteran Members" this would still be the case by and large), it really doesn't matter what others say about your ideas. Present your opinions, respond to others, and if you encounter someone who makes it personal... then so what?

Really, what are they going to do? They don't like your ideas? So? Why is that of signifcance? Refute what they say, or ignore them, and move on. If someone wants to be a sheep and go with the groupthink, then they are not interesting or valuable in a conversation, and should be treated as such.

Why do people care so much about what others think... especially on the Internet, where forums are a bunch of gossip and half-truths to begin with? When most of the self-proclaimed experts are frauds?

You need to understand the first rule of the Internet: a person is smart, but groups of people are stupid on a level a single person can not even hope to attain. Therefore, value individuals, not groupthink. The forums won't do this for you, you have know to ignore the idiots.


[Edited on 04.03.2007 6:47 PM PDT]

  • 04.03.2007 6:42 PM PDT
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Posted by: DEATHPIMP72
Anyone but Foman. He smells like cheese.

Posted by: Mattbluhalofan
Posted by: x Foman123 x
I have previously argued for user stratification (call it "rankings" if you wish) where some users would have a different title than regular member and potentially more privileges as well as more responsibilities. I believe that the benefits of a well-designed system would far outweigh the detriments, which could be minimized through foresight and good planning.


Your idea has good spirit, but knowing this community, it will just be a huge opportunity for

*hides behind shield*

elitism.


Yes, I have thought that through pretty thoroughly, and come to the conclusion that "elitism" can be stopped if a couple of factors are met:

1) The system should be one that ensures that members who are bestowed with these privileges and responsibilities are unlikely to be the types to become arrogant about having them. In other wods, the system would require some small subjective element -- if nothing else, a quick check of the user's post history and of the mods who have seen the poster in action. A good example of this is the current moderators -- they have a "rank," different-colored text, and vast privileges and responsibilities. Yet they do not display arrogance or elitism on the forums. The reason why? They are simply not the type of users to do so. There are many other users here who would be able to act in a similarly noble fashion.

2) The system must be one where the title, privileges, and responsibilities can be taken away just as easily as they are bestowed if the user becomes arrogant or elitist. Indeed, a requirement to refrain from elitism and arrogant posting could be an explicit condition of the new privileges. Although if point 1 above is met this should not be an issue, this point would provide an additional check on the system to eliminate arrogance and elitism.

To be honest, I've thought this through to several levels of argument and counterargument and I am confident that, with good planning, elitism and arrogance resulting from user stratification will be a minimal problem, if it exists at all.

  • 04.03.2007 6:45 PM PDT

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Posted by: Achronos
One point of advice - remember who you are talking to.

In this case, it is a forum of (presumably) people who play or have opinions on Bungie games. That includes you, the poster, any readers of your post, and anybody who replies (which is not necessarily the same set as those who read your post, unfortunately).

Why is this relevant? Well, context is key. Because you're all in the same "class" of users (even if you had different titles like "Veteran Members" this would still be the case by and large), it really doesn't matter what others say about your ideas. Present your opinions, respond to others, and if you encounter someone who makes it personal... then so what?

Really, what are they going to do? They don't like your ideas? So? Why is that of signifcance? Refute what they say, or ignore them, and move on. If someone wants to be a sheep and go with the groupthink, then they are not interesting or valuable in a conversation, and should be treated as such.

Why do people care so much about what others think... especially on the Internet, where forums are a bunch of gossip and half-truths to begin with? When most of the self-proclaimed experts are frauds?

You need to understand the first rule of the Internet: a person is smart, but groups of people are stupid on a level a single person can not even hope to attain. Therefore, value individuals, not groupthink. The forums won't do this for you, you have know to ignore the idiots.


You aren't exactly referring to what I'm dealing with. Unless of course, I'm failing to see the relevance.

What you're presenting is the instance that someone posts an idea, and everyone hates it. And that is understandable why you shouldn't care about the fact that they disagree.

I completely agree with you on that token. If I was in that situation, I wouldn't give two shakes if others thought it was a bad idea.

What I have a problem with is the condescension that is all-too-often attributed with it on this website.

If someone says, "Meh, I don't really like it.", I wouldn't have a problem.

If someone says, "God, you actually thought that would be a good idea? What is wrong with you?", yes I would have a bit of a problem with that, and I do see posts like that on a daily basis.

The same goes for simple mistakes. I see people act that way over simple mistakes (wrong forums, et cetera) all the time.

Just minutes after I posted this thread, a member (I won't point fingers here) sent me a PM, essentially calling me a forum cop, and a hypocrite for complaining about this (the latter). The former, however (forum cop), was based on the fact that I directed a member to the correct way in his mistake. My words were, verbatim:

"This would be better suited for The Underground. And please refrain from bumping."

Does that sound forum coppish? No. It sounds like a helpful member. And yet, I was labeled "forum cop" for doing so, and also "hypocrite" for posting this thread. And it was still applied with condescension and elitism.

That is the kind of thing that upsets me.

  • 04.03.2007 6:57 PM PDT
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Posted by: Achronos
You need to understand the first rule of the Internet: a person is smart, but groups of people are stupid on a level a single person can not even hope to attain. Therefore, value individuals, not groupthink. The forums won't do this for you, you have know to ignore the idiots.

That basically said it for me.

  • 04.03.2007 7:01 PM PDT
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Tact is for those who aren't witty enough to be sarcastic.

No use cryin' over Spillt Milk

Posted by: M3 Roki7
The thread you speak of, it does not matter what the community as a whole thinks, it is what you think. It does not matter that someone calls you a "Slut" under their breath, it is how you perceive it. My point being, that the community can only be "brutal" if you perceive it as such. Now, if you perceive it as a wonderfully happy place with pixie dust and unicorns, then the community will be as such.


Perception is reality?
In this case, false.

If I call you a knuckle-dragging retard, you'd be hard pressed to believe I was lauding you for your posting prowess.
Matt is absolutely right about this community being brutal. I don't, however, agree with his choice to complain about it.
It's the nature of anonymity that no one's mind will be changed.

  • 04.03.2007 7:08 PM PDT

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Erepublik: Save the world from oppression!
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I find myself rarely posting anymore. Sure, I'll drop by, surf the forums every other day, then post perhaps 5 times a week. Many times I was bashed for my opinions and thoughts. I rarely saw the intrest and humor that I had affliated with bungie years before. Now, I don't visit any other forum page besides the Septagon. It's practically the last stronghold of logic and polite actions on the public. Not to say that there isnt logic and politness throughout the other forum pages. It's there on all of the pages, it just isn't very prominant. I mean there is the Maw which is another heaven for those who want to have a good discussion, but that's about it. Feel free to yell and scream at me about how I'm being a pessimist, but I stand by my opinion.

  • 04.03.2007 7:15 PM PDT

"Science without religion is lame. Religion without science is blind." - Albert Einstien

Its hard to ignore the idiots. Some of them truly dont know what they are talking about, but then there are those who have some information and think they know everything. The ones who dont back down. And its not only that, but they dont care. They think they can say anything they want because they have an alternate identity with no face or real name, and are talking to people that dont have a face or name. They think that becuase they arent sitting in the room with the other people, there arent consequences for discriminating or insulting them. Its the same way on XBL, and I am also tired of it. I want people to understand that they arent talking to voices, but to people with lives and minds of their own.

People take XBL and online communities as an opportunity to let their "dark side" run themselves. I have only stayed here so long becuase I use this place as a source of information and debate. I like debating and assisting these "idiots" of the forum to understand they arent the only people in the world. I am trying to change the community bit by bit, which I wish more of the respectable and intelligent members would do, rather than just trampling over them in one post. Try to ram the idea into their heads that they cant go around doing this -blam!- over and over again. Even if they blow you off, i just try to make them understand. Its just the only motivation I have for coming here.

  • 04.03.2007 7:23 PM PDT
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Tact is for those who aren't witty enough to be sarcastic.

No use cryin' over Spillt Milk

Posted by: Mattbluhalofan
Posted by: Achronos
One point of advice - remember who you are talking to.

In this case, it is a forum of (presumably) people who play or have opinions on Bungie games. That includes you, the poster, any readers of your post, and anybody who replies (which is not necessarily the same set as those who read your post, unfortunately).

Why is this relevant? Well, context is key. Because you're all in the same "class" of users (even if you had different titles like "Veteran Members" this would still be the case by and large), it really doesn't matter what others say about your ideas. Present your opinions, respond to others, and if you encounter someone who makes it personal... then so what?

Really, what are they going to do? They don't like your ideas? So? Why is that of signifcance? Refute what they say, or ignore them, and move on. If someone wants to be a sheep and go with the groupthink, then they are not interesting or valuable in a conversation, and should be treated as such.

Why do people care so much about what others think... especially on the Internet, where forums are a bunch of gossip and half-truths to begin with? When most of the self-proclaimed experts are frauds?

You need to understand the first rule of the Internet: a person is smart, but groups of people are stupid on a level a single person can not even hope to attain. Therefore, value individuals, not groupthink. The forums won't do this for you, you have know to ignore the idiots.




"This would be better suited for The Underground. And please refrain from bumping."

Does that sound forum coppish? No. It sounds like a helpful member. And yet, I was labeled "forum cop" for doing so, and also "hypocrite" for posting this thread. And it was still applied with condescension and elitism.

That is the kind of thing that upsets me.


The moderators are there for a reason. Your intentions in this situation are inconsequential. You were being a pseudo-mod.
Most people are not likely to take authoritative criticism from someone not in a position of authority. To them, you're acting above your 'pay grade'.


[Edited on 04.03.2007 7:33 PM PDT]

  • 04.03.2007 7:31 PM PDT
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Posted by: Achronos
Why do people care so much about what others think

I know this is not the entirety of your post Achronos, but I must applaud you for this. This is the one thing that I live by, the one thing that I think everyone should realize.

Posted by: shiv master
Posted by: M3 Roki7
The thread you speak of, it does not matter what the community as a whole thinks, it is what you think. It does not matter that someone calls you a "Slut" under their breath, it is how you perceive it. My point being, that the community can only be "brutal" if you perceive it as such. Now, if you perceive it as a wonderfully happy place with pixie dust and unicorns, then the community will be as such.


Perception is reality?
In this case, false.

I did not say that, yes I did imply it, but I never said that directly. I must address one point you made with this small bit. I know this is not your full post shiv, but this is what stands out to me. Why exactly is it false? It may be false to you, but to me it is quite true. Yes, the community does have it's problems, but whose to say one cannot look past the bad and focus on the good? Perception is reality, yes. In my opinion anyway; why you ask? Because how you view things is exactly how you will react. I shall give an example:

Person A: Cookies or Pie?
Person B: Pie
Person A: Well, I like Cookies so STFU!
Person B: Pie FTW!!
Person A: Cookies FTW!! STFU Noob!
Person C: Both
Person A: You can't do that! You must choose one.

Now, many of you may be viewing this as a spammer/flamer type of ordeal, well, I ask you, look past all of that. Everyone keeps thinking so complex it sickens me. This small conversation can be taken many ways. One being the bare bones of the conversation. A pure flamer, flaming others for not agreeing with them. However, alter your perception and you will see something different. This being an argument between two people. Then a third intervenes to settle the problem. Thus saying both, instead of one. I admit, this is not the greatest example in the world. But it does get the point across. So, in my opinion, perception is reality. How you react, is how you view a situation.

  • 04.03.2007 7:37 PM PDT
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Matt, if you don't like what people say to you about being a cop, then why must you continue to do what these people HATE? Although (IMO) you would be quite the mod material, the hard truth is...you're not one. The people that don't like you, only hate you for the sole reason of "posing", so to speak, as a moderator. If you could do what you do on a lower level...I guarantee you that all those hate PMs and such, will be completely GONE. You think you're a higher authority on this site...and that is obviously not true. Until people see you're title as member dissapear and become forum ninja...you should quit playing ninja.

  • 04.03.2007 7:44 PM PDT

Tom Achronos
Bungie.net Overlord
twitter: http://twitter.com/Achronos

"I have no words that would do justice to the atrocities you commit to the English language, as well as your continued assaults on the concepts of basic literacy and logical reasoning."

There is a fundamental choice you have to make - see the forum for what it is and get past it, or dwell on it. You are dwelling on it. That kind of "meta-conversation" (talking about the forums) is not generally productive at this level. It is an emotional response about something (the groupthink and the people who contribute to it) that doesn't deserve that kind of attachment.

Your alternative is to stop dwelling on it and get past it. Examine it logically: what can you do to alter the attitude of the groupthink and their stupidity? You can do nothing directly - you are but one person. What you can do is stop paying attention to it, have your conversations (avoiding "about the forum's attitude meta-topics") and add to the collective content.

While this may seem as a "Shut up and deal with it" response - that isn't it at all, and if you don't understand the difference between not voicing your complaints and what I'm suggesting nothing will be served. The key is to not attach emotional significance to things that aren't deserving of it. And forum trolls are some of the MOST undeserving our emotions. Save them for the people that you respect, who have earned it. What's key is that you're not "internalizing it" or other such stupidity, you are simply choosing not apply significance to a forum troll's actions.

Now, this tactic requires a high degree of self control and a well developed ego not dependent on external forces that don't matter in the grand scheme of things, but I've found it is by far the most effective way to deal with such things. I dislike being an angry person (so do any of the very few people who have ever seen me actually angry), so I only let myself get angry when it really matters.

And I'm not even suggesting that - I'm simply suggesting that you don't apply emotional significance to forum trolls who don't matter. You'll find your forum experience much more rewarding.

Posted by: Mattbluhalofan
You aren't exactly referring to what I'm dealing with. Unless of course, I'm failing to see the relevance.

What you're presenting is the instance that someone posts an idea, and everyone hates it. And that is understandable why you shouldn't care about the fact that they disagree.

I completely agree with you on that token. If I was in that situation, I wouldn't give two shakes if others thought it was a bad idea.

What I have a problem with is the condescension that is all-too-often attributed with it on this website.

If someone says, "Meh, I don't really like it.", I wouldn't have a problem.

If someone says, "God, you actually thought that would be a good idea? What is wrong with you?", yes I would have a bit of a problem with that, and I do see posts like that on a daily basis.

The same goes for simple mistakes. I see people act that way over simple mistakes (wrong forums, et cetera) all the time.

Just minutes after I posted this thread, a member (I won't point fingers here) sent me a PM, essentially calling me a forum cop, and a hypocrite for complaining about this (the latter). The former, however (forum cop), was based on the fact that I directed a member to the correct way in his mistake. My words were, verbatim:

"This would be better suited for The Underground. And please refrain from bumping."

Does that sound forum coppish? No. It sounds like a helpful member. And yet, I was labeled "forum cop" for doing so, and also "hypocrite" for posting this thread. And it was still applied with condescension and elitism.

That is the kind of thing that upsets me.


[Edited on 04.03.2007 7:49 PM PDT]

  • 04.03.2007 7:45 PM PDT