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  • Subject: Matchmaking Playlist Update
Subject: Matchmaking Playlist Update

"Fatty is your daddy."

Posted by: Achronos
Your knowledge of how content downloads work for Xbox 1 games and how the 360 plays Xbox 1 games at all is somewhat lacking. Suggesting incompetence when you don't know how things work is the height of arrogance.

Posted by: dirtyone
I am rather curious as why they did not just have two bundles with these maps, one for the xbox 1 crowd and one for the 360'S. both packs would have contained the identical maps just a different wrapper for the 360. seems so simple that it could have worked. oh well, this is ms, logic and testing escapes them sometimes.


dirtyone = OWNED

  • 04.26.2007 3:45 PM PDT

Posted by: Achronos
Your knowledge of how content downloads work for Xbox 1 games and how the 360 plays Xbox 1 games at all is somewhat lacking. Suggesting incompetence when you don't know how things work is the height of arrogance.


So what is beating around the bush considered? Yes - I agree, his post was a little off about creating two separate packages for the xbox and 360. The point still remains though - Why were there not massive issues with the previous map packs and the 360 (and don't say backwash)? We are all dumbfounded at the issues that are on the table for this map pack that nobody has had to deal with before. Where did these problems come from? A: The company who created the game in which the maps should be used. That would be you. Don't try to belittle us because you guys have dropped the ball.



[Edited on 04.26.2007 4:17 PM PDT]

  • 04.26.2007 4:17 PM PDT

Posted by: bored28
Cheers. I do not normally post to this forum, however; given the current string of events that has unfolded before me in recent days, I feel it necessary to share my thoughts on the matter.

Achronos,

I believe that SmokersCough attacks on Bungie's ability to keep deadlines is unfounded. In most cases, the Bungie staff is strategically careful so as not to force themselves into releasing a firm date for anything. This is both prudent and foolish as that same time. It is prudent in the sense that Bungie is not required to adhere to any strict schedule should a problem arise that will force an unforeseen delay. It is foolish in the sense that its creates a feeling of frustration and neglect among the gaming community because certain assumptions are made when something like a map-release is slated.

For example, in every instance when new maps were released for H2, an update was either implemented on the release date or shortly thereafter. What is the logic behind this one might ask? It is simple. Gamers buy the maps to play in matchmaking. What is the sense of having new maps that cannot be utilized on XBL? I've heard the ever infamous response that one should just "play some custom games." Fair enough, but in reality, how long does that really retain the attention of the gamer? Not long.

If polled, what would the enire H2 gaming community say made the Halo2 game? Was it offline play or online matchmaking? Matchmaking would win hands down. As such, would logic not dictate that if matchmaking is what the people want, should they not be granted a request for a new set of maps to be added to the current catalogue given their devotion to a game that has long passed its intended lifespan? I believe it would and I believe many others would agree.

Now I understand that this was your full intention from the start, however; those that have the maps are now being shunned because of a problem that Bungie did not account for. Why should those that have purchased the maps be left without the right to play those maps online when the fault of the matter is laid soley on the developers and those that implement the updates? The rational conclusion here should be a compromise: offer a Team Training-like playlist in the interim that includes the new maps for people that have already purchased the new maps. Make it unranked and completely disposable once the problems are fixed. Everyone that does not have the maps will not be cast-aside because this playlist will be nothing more than an conditional supplement. This is the heart of the matter and this is why you have see such an outcry from the community. A logical assumption was made that the maps could be played in matchmaking within a reasonable amount of time from release. Obviously this has not happened and the gamers are becoming frustrated that they have bought maps for a 3 year old game and cannot even use them in their intended environment.

This is not an attack on Bungie or any of the like. I wanted to simply state, in English, why the frustration has grown to such large quantities in recent days and perhaps offer up a realistic compromise that would satisfy all relevant parties. Cheers.


Brilliant!
Cheers back at ya!
<---**makes it a double**

  • 04.26.2007 4:24 PM PDT

go to thisspartanlife.com to see another great machinima. I'm a member myself.

um.. I cant download the maps. but I think I figured it out why I cant. I have an error message saying premium content not enable. but on my 360 it is enabled. I remembered when I had my regular xbox I disabled it so that's why I cant download them. I thought I could fix it on my xbox by changing it but my xbox wont sign into live anymore. I hope this is usefull information.

  • 04.26.2007 4:28 PM PDT
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Posted by: Achronos
Posted by: exed23
Exactly what about that line is not clear to ANYONE at Bungie? We have been searching for troubleshooting tips until we are blue in the face, forums, gamer sites, XBL, and yes, here at Bungie.net. FOR OVER A WEEK!!!! Allow me to point out the overwhelming silence on your part, not ONE single acknowledgement of the problems everyone was having. Not ONE.

Really? Nothing? A search of recent forum posts by myself seems to indicate otherwise. That doesn't seem like overwhelming silence. I also seem to remember it being mentioned in last week's weekly update. That also indicates a lack of silence on the issue. And that's only the stuff you could easily find. I won't get into the emails and phone calls we've had working with Xbox Live to track down the source of the problems, as well as with the Support guys to make sure they were relaying the correct information.

No postings, no story, no blurbs saying "We know, and we're on it." This is as frustrating as the problems with the downloads and I think this is evidence of a conspiracy. Someone, a pooh bah no doubt, has decreed that there will be no stories or anything regarding the trouble. Nothing from Frankie, and in 12 pages of comments on the last "weekly update" nothing from the renowned Achronos.
Just to clarify, you weren't really looking that hard. I agree, it would be insulting to hear nothing. That's why I posted a bunch, and why Frankie mentioned the issue in the weekly update for those who don't keep track of the forums.

I recognize your frustration - but please at least do us the courtesy of looking for said posts and information before you claim there is none.



Achronos, I stand corrected, I failed to see many of your postings. I admit I would possibly not have been so vicious in my criticism had I seen a few of them. Especially the lovely advice on calling XBL support. I did see that one, but possibly I gave this important information "no never mind" when I should have. I find in my computer work that I can usually Google the problem and take it from there. Had a little trouble in that department this past couple of weeks I guess. My bad. In fairness, I was able to download the maps sometime during the release day. My frustrations stem from my work helping people and being unable to these last couple of weeks.

I understand you guys are burning the candle on both ends. Much respect for that. I'm looking forwards to Halo 3. Even if it comes at a later date than we fool gamers "expect" it to. After all, we just suffered through all the Vista delays, what's a short time for a game? Especially since the dark side has it's dirty, grubby little hands all over this problem. MS does seems synonymous with "Awww, man, what now?" sometimes.

Now, pardon me, I've had a rough day, I'm going to go get my ass kicked on Lockout or something.
I should feel better after that...

  • 04.26.2007 4:38 PM PDT
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More BS, just get it done.

  • 04.26.2007 4:39 PM PDT
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I still as of today are not able to DL the 2 new maps. I would certainly like the issue to be fixed. Microsoft xboxlive support had told me a number of things to do to my HD and still new solution,even telling me that it was my internet provider but yet I had no problem DL the prior map packs I even went across town and tried at my friends house who is 30 miles away he also doesn't can't get the maps.

If the ranks are to be reset and the 2 new maps are required to play then would you please put the map pack as FREE. Many gamers like myself who are huge Halo 1,2 fans paid for the new content. I'm sure it would help to possibly solve something or at least include it on disc in the upcoming Xbox Magazine. This has turned into a nightmare..there must be some solution to the fix. I have been hearing that it could be a server crowd. But then why is it so easy to DL the old maps. I will post as soon as I can DL the 2 maps. I just want to see something done about this.

  • 04.26.2007 5:08 PM PDT
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i still cant download the maps.

  • 04.26.2007 5:20 PM PDT

so...what I am supposed to do since I am one of the "few" who still can't download it?

  • 04.26.2007 5:21 PM PDT
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Finnaly we get some info on the situation since bungie and Ms cant tell us what is going on.. I cant believe this even happend, why put out bugged maps before testing them?

  • 04.26.2007 5:30 PM PDT

go to thisspartanlife.com to see another great machinima. I'm a member myself.

we wait till they tell us more in the next bungie update.

  • 04.26.2007 5:31 PM PDT
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thats all we can do... If they even give us an update.... I really don see how they managed to get these maps all tangled up.. i mean they did it with the old maps fine but they cant get there -blam!- straight for 2 more.. The people that are posting about there complaints are true supporters of both bungie and ms and all we want is the same support and help back and not get fraud ed of money.

  • 04.26.2007 5:36 PM PDT

go to thisspartanlife.com to see another great machinima. I'm a member myself.

I dont think it helps that everyone starts getting all huffy because they cant get the maps. just play something different and wait to see if they say anything new.

  • 04.26.2007 5:54 PM PDT
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Posted by: Achronos
Your knowledge of how content downloads work for Xbox 1 games and how the 360 plays Xbox 1 games at all is somewhat lacking. Suggesting incompetence when you don't know how things work is the height of arrogance.

Posted by: dirtyone
I am rather curious as why they did not just have two bundles with these maps, one for the xbox 1 crowd and one for the 360'S. both packs would have contained the identical maps just a different wrapper for the 360. seems so simple that it could have worked. oh well, this is ms, logic and testing escapes them sometimes.


i agree the my post is arrogant and for that i apologize , but wasn;t the original plan for these maps to have been exclusive for the 360, then switched so all xbox owners could join in the fun. and your right my knowledge is lacking on how the emulator works, because this a closed system, but programing a xex for the 360 that injects the maps to the hard drive, doesn't seem that far fetched. .after all that is how modders have gained access to the 360 hdd. they could have written it in xdk so it would trigger the emulator. then move the maps to the right spot similar to how the h2 map pack dvd works on the 360..that would been the long way around but would have been smoother . but i am going to stand behind my testing statement having gone through the ring of death and a wireless mic that will not work with a launch controller

  • 04.26.2007 5:57 PM PDT
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Posted by: Achronos
Really? Nothing? A search of recent forum posts by myself seems to indicate otherwise. That doesn't seem like overwhelming silence. I also seem to remember it being mentioned in last week's weekly update. That also indicates a lack of silence on the issue. And that's only the stuff you could easily find. I won't get into the emails and phone calls we've had working with Xbox Live to track down the source of the problems, as well as with the Support guys to make sure they were relaying the correct information.

Just to clarify, you weren't really looking that hard. I agree, it would be insulting to hear nothing. That's why I posted a bunch, and why Frankie mentioned the issue in the weekly update for those who don't keep track of the forums.

I recognize your frustration - but please at least do us the courtesy of looking for said posts and information before you claim there is none.


Why don't you "get into" these emails and phone calls you've had with xbox live? Shed a little light on a dark and increasingly maddening situation (for both you at the company and us staring at the "installation of content failed" message). Or, instead of citing forums as places where dissatisfied and frustrated customers can go to find very vague explanations of this problem mixed in with communal rubbish and groundless theorizing, perhaps you guys should consider issuing some sort of PUBLIC STATEMENT (perhaps a message in that convenient little window everyone sees when they first log into halo 2's xbl menu screen). Then those of us who don't spend their free time hunting through forums can receive some much needed clarification and acknowledgment that a problem exists and the company is currently working on a fix for it. I know you guys at bungie can and will find a solution to this.

  • 04.26.2007 6:01 PM PDT
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-Deadguy

I had problems downloading but I fixed the problems and managed to get it to work. Here's the tech specifics in-case someone's still trying to get it to work. Good luck.

I couldn't download the maps until I did the "360 maintenance trick". I had to do it two consecutive times (because there were two auto-updates). I also erased a "partially downloaded" Halo 2 file from memory on my harddrive. It didn't work the first time, so I did it again, and this time I also erased the other downloadable Halo 2 maps. Then it worked immediately, and I was able to go back and download the other maps again afterwards.

The error I was getting was that it let me pay for the maps, and then acted like I'd already downloaded the maps, and tried to install them when I clicked on the download option. As soon as it tried to install them, it gave me the error screen which said I needed to go to Xbox.com for support.

Anyway, I won't say what the "maintenance trick" is because it's a hidden feature on your 360 that can be abused, and (I guess) it could mess-up your system, but I'm thinking that if this message get's to anyone at Bungie that understands what I mean, it could be useful in instructing others to get the downloads working.
Describing the specifics to the "maintenance trick" might get me banned even though you can probably google it.. so suffice it to say.. it involves going to the "memory" screen and pressing a sequence of buttons on your controller, including the bumpers. When you've done it correctly, you get a message stating "please wait while your 360 performs required maintenance' (or something close to that). Anyone that knows their stuff, knows how this work, but here's the order of events:

#1- Delete the Halo 2 stuff. Including the partially downloaded file, but not the profiles,just the map downloads.. Especially if you downloaded all three packs.. ( you didn't need all three, but some folks downloaded the extra copy when it went free, I guess).

#2- Perform the maintenance trick, at least once.. I did it twice out of frustration the time everything worked for me.

#3- reboot your 360

#4- accept the auto-update for Halo2

#5- try downloading the new maps again.

#6- redownload the other maps you just deleted previously (they're free now, so don't worry about it).

#7- go matchmaking and advertise like crazy for folks to join your party.

#8- Take your party full of new pals and play on the new maps,

#9- Come back here and laugh at the whiners on here that complain about hanging out in empty maps. Be sure to tell 'em that it's not BUNGIE'S fault they have no friends.

Best of luck!

  • 04.26.2007 6:04 PM PDT
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Posted by: Deadguy
I had problems downloading but I fixed the problems and managed to get it to work. Here's the tech specifics in-case someone's still trying to get it to work. Good luck.

I couldn't download the maps until I did the "360 maintenance trick". I had to do it two consecutive times (because there were two auto-updates). I also erased a "partially downloaded" Halo 2 file from memory on my harddrive. It didn't work the first time, so I did it again, and this time I also erased the other downloadable Halo 2 maps. Then it worked immediately, and I was able to go back and download the other maps again afterwards.

The error I was getting was that it let me pay for the maps, and then acted like I'd already downloaded the maps, and tried to install them when I clicked on the download option. As soon as it tried to install them, it gave me the error screen which said I needed to go to Xbox.com for support.

Anyway, I won't say what the "maintenance trick" is because it's a hidden feature on your 360 that can be abused, and (I guess) it could mess-up your system, but I'm thinking that if this message get's to anyone at Bungie that understands what I mean, it could be useful in instructing others to get the downloads working.
Describing the specifics to the "maintenance trick" might get me banned even though you can probably google it.. so suffice it to say.. it involves going to the "memory" screen and pressing a sequence of buttons on your controller, including the bumpers. When you've done it correctly, you get a message stating "please wait while your 360 performs required maintenance' (or something close to that). Anyone that knows their stuff, knows how this work, but here's the order of events:

#1- Delete the Halo 2 stuff. Including the partially downloaded file, but not the profiles,just the map downloads.. Especially if you downloaded all three packs.. ( you didn't need all three, but some folks downloaded the extra copy when it went free, I guess).

#2- Perform the maintenance trick, at least once.. I did it twice out of frustration the time everything worked for me.

#3- reboot your 360

#4- accept the auto-update for Halo2

#5- try downloading the new maps again.

#6- redownload the other maps you just deleted previously (they're free now, so don't worry about it).

#7- go matchmaking and advertise like crazy for folks to join your party.

#8- Take your party full of new pals and play on the new maps,

#9- Come back here and laugh at the whiners on here that complain about hanging out in empty maps. Be sure to tell 'em that it's not BUNGIE'S fault they have no friends.

Best of luck!


Are you talking about the clear your cache trick?

  • 04.26.2007 6:13 PM PDT
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I appreciate the info because ive been checking at my friends house every day and no update (grounded!) thanks for telling : )

  • 04.26.2007 6:18 PM PDT

loupis.net

Acknowledgment! Huzzah!
Although I'm one of the few that still can't download the maps even though I've paid for them and done all the tricks suggested, it is nice to finally here ANYTHING about the problem from the people in the know.

Thank you!

  • 04.26.2007 6:32 PM PDT
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Sweet thank god because i dint want to d lvl for nothing.

  • 04.26.2007 7:07 PM PDT
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I just want the maps...
*sobs*
:*(**
*is saddened by the :*(** picture and sobs again*


*SOBS*
WAAAAAAAAA
yeah, the update will happen soon enough, I just am happy that theyre working on the problem, ive always loved bugie... Thanks for the update!

  • 04.26.2007 7:08 PM PDT
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well does this mean if you guys tell me halo 3 will be out (x date), that the day before (x date) you'll be posting something that says "o sry guys ethiopia couldnt get the maps so we're going to wait another week."
Seriously Its uncalled for.
Look I heart Bungie but honestly this is a little rediculous.

  • 04.26.2007 7:12 PM PDT
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We shouldn't have to clear out all of our previous Halo 2 data. I downloaded the old "new" maps without problem, however the new "new" ones will not download.

The only thing that seems different is the price. The $4 screwed over "0.5%" of people.

However I don't see a solution, if they make the maps free the people who bought them will cry out for a refund...so I guess we must sit and hope the XBL programmers can find out what is wrong this time...

  • 04.26.2007 7:29 PM PDT

iluvatar2448

when in the world are they going to put another update up? cuz its been about a week since the last one and i really want to know wtf bungie/microsoft is doing to fix this problem that should have never happened in the first place...

  • 04.26.2007 7:40 PM PDT

Tom Achronos
Bungie.net Overlord
twitter: http://twitter.com/Achronos

"I have no words that would do justice to the atrocities you commit to the English language, as well as your continued assaults on the concepts of basic literacy and logical reasoning."

Hmm... Let's take this one step at time, shall we?

Posted by: SHADY K1LLAZ
In reply to your first question, the part of that statement that is unprofessional is the "ish but we’re going to wait and see how things are going online before locking that down. We’ll keep you posted." part. I think the other part that is really erking us all is Frankie's "This playlist update and rank reset will probably occur next week, pending the outcome of our ongoing work with the Xbox Live team." A truly accountable company... (etc)

Dates are a funny thing. Normally with matchmaking updates, we just put them up. We'll tell you about when they'll go up, but the packages are prepared in advance and everything is ready. This one was different in that there was a rank reset attached to it. But still, we've done that before. The only problem is that it is dependent on the maps being trouble free first. They're not. And even then, of course, you could easily argue that we should press forward anyway. I'd argue that is the "unprofessional" course of action. When something unexpected happens, you don't just press forward and assume that's the only problem. This is especially true when many people who can't get the maps have paid for them and yet still can't download them. Maybe our mistake here is assuming that people would understand a delay in a something that had no firm date to begin with. I'm pretty sure if we hadn't said what day, though, people would be in the forums right now complaining that we should tell them when the ranks are being reset, and it is unprofessional for us to not reveal this information.

I know that they would, because they did it when the date of the beta was unknown. I'm sure pretty soon that will shift to "when's the game coming out" as we get into late summer.

I guess my point is that calling us unprofessional over this is silly, because we can't predict the future and can only give your our planned dates. When assumptions made in those plans (like "Customers will be able to get maps") are violated, we have to adjust. This happens all the time to every person who has ever had to deal with unexpected events, so I fail to see why this is any different.

"You're full of *blam*. Quit making excuses and get it done". Which is the same I say to you.
Okay, wait just a minute here. In the previous paragraph, you demand that we stick to announced dates, yet as we inform you of unforseen issues, you want us to quit making excuses? Well, wouldn't that be unprofessional? Because if we didn't tell you what was going on, wouldn't that make you angry? It isn't like we aren't working to solve the problems - you're getting the summary here, not the play by play. I think you need to adjust your expectations to be a bit more reasonable - -blam!- happens, and we're pretty good at owning up to such unexpected stuff and keeping you in the loop for the most part.

How do you consider shunning your PAYING customers to be fair? If you ask me, you are being too prudent - again as I said previously, pick up your skirt and do it, what are you guys so scared of? - I'm guessing the real reason you haven't done the update is because of people who have paid for the map and can't download it yet. Fair enough. But you know as well as I do that a good business always has a contingency plan. It seems, in this case at least, that the contingency plan was to make vague statements so that you could withdraw any previous statements and run to the hills with your metaphorical tail between your legs when things went wrong. What about a statement regarding a "Team Preview" playlist? As others have stated, every other map pack release was immediately followed by an addition to matchmaking so that users could begin playing the new maps immediately while any download issues were resolved. Why not this time? A: Because it was too much work and it was much easier to just do one playlist update instead of two.
Map packages have to be tested over a period of time. We can't simply "whip one up" - it takes a while. As in a few weeks. As for a contingency plan - "if things fail, rollback to last known good state and figure out what went wrong". The playlist wasn't deployed, so we haven't had to rollback. Just because you don't like the contingency plan for something going wrong doesn't mean it is a bad one. I know it is fun to second guess and pretend you know every angle here, but you don't. That becomes clear when you think we're not doing what you think is a good course of action because "it is too much work." Do you honestly have an idea what or who you're talking about?

As to missing dates, wasn't halo3 originally supposed to be released hand in hand with the 360 as an initial 360 offering? Then I do also remember rumors about a push to release halo 3 this past Christmas? Granted, a lot is rumors and yes you have been very secretive and probably haven't ever said anything about these dates, so fine, according to what YOU guys say and release, you're on time, but it's easy to look like your on time when you create the schedule and news releases now isn't it?
Uh, no, it wasn't. Halo 3 was always scheduled to be in 2007. And of course it is what we say - we're the ones making the production schedule! You're trying to hold us to crap that is made up by idiots on the Internet and by retail stores trying to make pre-order targets, now? Please get some perspective!

On a side note, why does it seem like we never see any posts from you (Achronos) until somebody just says something God awful and stupid and you feel the need to lash out? Why not a kind and *professional* response with any kind of useful info like "Hey everyone, we're really really really sorry, in the meantime, we are working as hard as we can to both solve the download issues and we are currently debating about whether or not a team preview playlist would be possible." Instead, your response is simply a cold, dry, sarcastic shadow of a statement, just like Frankie's statement that started this whole debate.
I'm sorry, you must be used to normal large company sanitized PR. My goal here is not to make you feel good. My goal here is to be honest with both the events and my take on them. I do not expect you to like everything that I have to say. I fully expect people to complain about things like crappy Support experiences and the inability to get maps. You SHOULD complain about those. But if you're going to do so, you should have your facts straight. I don't like that you guys are having trouble getting the maps. Yet many people seem to think we're doing this on purpose, or that because we aren't giving you transcripts of our many conversations with the Xbox Live engineers that we're just twiddling our thumbs and being unprofessional about this. I've been making post after post about the importance of calling support and such so they don't think they've solved the problem when they haven't, and I've since been accused of doing nothing to inform you, and now you are questioning my professional integrity... apparently because I'm not being nice?

My job description doesn't include making you feel happy. My job does include being honest and direct with you. If our positions were reversed, I'd MUCH rather have someone be honest and truthful rather than get some sanitized PR sanctioned "We're working on it" message. I'm curious - why do you think a "nice" response that doesn't say anything is better than something that tries to honestly answer questions, even if said answers aren't what you want to hear?

You need to stop trying to have it both ways - you can't be honest and direct and still please everyone at the same time. I expect people to be honest with me, even if I won't like what they have to say. It can be hard sometimes, but in the end, it always better than if someone tries to sugarcoat something.

  • 04.26.2007 7:45 PM PDT