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Subject: As community guy, and now incharge of MM should sketch post more of...
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Posted by: DEATHPIMP72
Anyone but Foman. He smells like cheese.

As I said on page one, if they are cool and fun to interact with, Bungie employee or not, they should be encouraged to post and interact here. But nobody should be required to interact with the Community simply because we whine about it.

Now, if Community interaction actually means something to Bungie's bottom line in terms of profits, then that's an issue for Jason Jones and the other Bungie executives to take up with their Community Team. Not for us to whine about.

[Edited on 05.02.2007 7:32 AM PDT]

  • 05.02.2007 7:31 AM PDT
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Posted by: twinkiemaker
Posted by: Death v2
I think what Shiv is trying to say is that inability to grasp a concept does not make the concept invalid.
And another attempt by twinkie to insult the intellignce of other members, no wonder he is a member of the trolls.

Death seriously, I've tried to maintain some sense of civility in regards to this issue,

Yet youve tried to insult others numerous times? Good call

but the point is, you simply don't get it. No one asked you to agree with them, but you failed to even acknowledge what they were saying. You're obviously unhappy with the Bungie staff for not posting as much as you think they should, so leave. I think I can pretty much speak for everyone when I say we're tired of you not understanding anything thats being said while you throw your little tantrum.
Coming from the guy who has yet to realize that the only things that are really being asked for are simple things such as updates and explinations on very important community issues. Examples that have been brought up are the update situation, the pistol situation, etc. A stickied post by the individual responsible for them would go a long way to helping things. 1 by sketch and 1 by frankie... so please call that unreasonable again.


This isnt Deathsmommyanddaddy.com, crying and stomping your feet isn't going to get you anywhere.

Oh, and The Trolls are capitalized.


Another failure of an attempt at being witty. Oh, and nobody cares about the trolls.

  • 05.02.2007 7:33 AM PDT
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Posted by: x Foman123 x
As I said on page one, if they are cool and fun to interact with, Bungie employee or not, they should be encouraged to post and interact here. But nobody should be required to interact with the Community simply because we whine about it.

Now, if Community interaction actually means something to Bungie's bottom line in terms of profits, then that's an issue for Jason Jones and the other Bungie executives to take up with their Community Team. Not for us to whine about.


We arent asking for interaction really, we are just asking for important issues to be clarified, as opposed to having them be clarified on other sites and having us getting 2nd, 3rd, or 4th hand information which is commonly wrong, or offbase due to the transferrance from one person to another over and over.

  • 05.02.2007 7:51 AM PDT
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Destinypedia - The Wiki for Bungie's Destiny
Posted by: DEATHPIMP72
Anyone but Foman. He smells like cheese.

Please stop referring to yourself as "we."

  • 05.02.2007 8:07 AM PDT
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Posted by: x Foman123 x
Please stop referring to yourself as "we."


I am referring to a group of people...

  • 05.02.2007 8:13 AM PDT
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Posted by: Death v2
We arent asking for interaction really, we are just asking for important issues to be clarified, as opposed to having them be clarified on other sites and having us getting 2nd, 3rd, or 4th hand information which is commonly wrong, or offbase due to the transferrance from one person to another over and over.


The weekly update was enough information on the playlist updates. Frankie posted on other sites because the community isn't solely Bungie.net. Did he make a sticky on another site? How do you get any transference when people link you to the original statements on a different site?

  • 05.02.2007 8:19 AM PDT
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Posted by: Sketto
Posted by: Death v2
We arent asking for interaction really, we are just asking for important issues to be clarified, as opposed to having them be clarified on other sites and having us getting 2nd, 3rd, or 4th hand information which is commonly wrong, or offbase due to the transferrance from one person to another over and over.


The weekly update was enough information on the playlist updates. Frankie posted on other sites because the community isn't solely Bungie.net. Did he make a sticky on another site? How do you get any transference when people link you to the original statements on a different site?


Did it give any reasoning? There is a forum dedicated to playlist discussion, so wouldnt it be a good idea to give them reasons behind things to assist in focusing their discussions?

  • 05.02.2007 8:33 AM PDT

If you don't got it, you want it. If you got it, you want more of it. Of course if you don't know what it is, it's hard to get any in the first place.

Posted by: Death v2
Posted by: Sketto
Posted by: Death v2
We arent asking for interaction really, we are just asking for important issues to be clarified, as opposed to having them be clarified on other sites and having us getting 2nd, 3rd, or 4th hand information which is commonly wrong, or offbase due to the transferrance from one person to another over and over.


The weekly update was enough information on the playlist updates. Frankie posted on other sites because the community isn't solely Bungie.net. Did he make a sticky on another site? How do you get any transference when people link you to the original statements on a different site?


Did it give any reasoning? There is a forum dedicated to playlist discussion, so wouldnt it be a good idea to give them reasons behind things to assist in focusing their discussions?
There's a difference between Telling people what your doing, and why you have to, and telling them, and them ignoring why it's necessary. Just look at the ruckus H2H kicked up.

  • 05.02.2007 9:35 AM PDT

Tom Achronos
Bungie.net Overlord
twitter: http://twitter.com/Achronos

"I have no words that would do justice to the atrocities you commit to the English language, as well as your continued assaults on the concepts of basic literacy and logical reasoning."

He doesn't need to. You obviously already knew about it, and he did even post in the forum about it. This was copied to other threads by lots of other people. What would a sticky do other than clutter up the forum with yet another repeat thread?

So, explain to me what you're missing? We don't post stickies on every piece of misinformation and rumor busting that happens. We never have. We never will. You will just have to deal with the fact that you will not always be the first to know things.
Posted by: MLG_Achronos
Frankie can post a Weekly Update about a mediocre game having nothing to do with the Haloverse but he can't make a sticky in The Halo 3 Forum about the M6D Pistol incident.

  • 05.02.2007 12:35 PM PDT
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Posted by: Achronos
You will just have to deal with the fact that you will not always be the first to know things.


Correct me if i'm wrong, but was't the bungie ethos that their fans will always know first?

  • 05.02.2007 12:38 PM PDT

Tom Achronos
Bungie.net Overlord
twitter: http://twitter.com/Achronos

"I have no words that would do justice to the atrocities you commit to the English language, as well as your continued assaults on the concepts of basic literacy and logical reasoning."

Correction: it didn't give any reasons you liked. It certainly said that the reason things were changing were to deal with the new maps as well as further population management. I have also later said in several cases that this playlist adjustment was not changing much beside those two things. Gametypes are generally the same, weightings are the same, etc.

Of course, you don't like those reasons... especially people who are attached to BTB or such. But there isn't any additional reasoning to add, so what the heck do you expect Sketchfactor to post? You are essentially complaining that he didn't post in Optimatch the same thing that was posted like three times as a news story.

Furthermore, nothing additional is posted in Optimatch asking for feedback for the changes, because the changes haven't been made yet. When we've posted the changes and are ready to start thinking about the NEXT playlist update, then you can expect conversation to start up again, probably prompted by whoever is building said playlist.

You need to stop being unreasonable - we cannot sit down and try and convince you of our reasons for doing every little thing we do. There are simply too many of you. We could explain forever about the changes, but it wouldn't help because a lot of you simply don't agree and seem to think it is because of a lack of communication on our part (even though it is more a lack of willingness to understand that the greater good is more important). That's why we read more often than we post. I quite frankly think that the accessibility we give you to Bungie here has unrealistically increased your expectations as to what you should be getting all the time.

Posted by: Death v2
Did it give any reasoning? There is a forum dedicated to playlist discussion, so wouldnt it be a good idea to give them reasons behind things to assist in focusing their discussions?

  • 05.02.2007 12:46 PM PDT

Tom Achronos
Bungie.net Overlord
twitter: http://twitter.com/Achronos

"I have no words that would do justice to the atrocities you commit to the English language, as well as your continued assaults on the concepts of basic literacy and logical reasoning."

The fans did know first. We didn't issue a press release.

There are lots of fans that aren't on these forums. Indeed, the second Frankie posted that, it found its way to these forums, and we wouldn't have needed to say anything here at all (it would be redundant) if it weren't for a few spammers (one or two of which got banned) who refused to believe that it was Frankie, despite having that identity since before he was even a Bungie employee.

Posted by: elmicker
Correct me if i'm wrong, but was't the bungie ethos that their fans will always know first?

  • 05.02.2007 12:50 PM PDT
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Posted by: Achronos
The fans did know first. We didn't issue a press release.

There are lots of fans that aren't on these forums. Indeed, the second Frankie posted that, it found its way to these forums, and we wouldn't have needed to say anything here at all (it would be redundant) if it weren't for a few spammers (one or two of which got banned) who refused to believe that it was Frankie, despite having that identity since before he was even a Bungie employee.

Posted by: elmicker
Correct me if i'm wrong, but was't the bungie ethos that their fans will always know first?


I wasn't referring to that incident in particular, just that sentence really surprised me. Back before Halo 2's release/Halo 3's announcement", the line was always "As soon as there's some news, it'll be here on the front page first." Then to see you say that we wouldn't always be the first to know surprised me. Now i personally don't consider something like a playlist update to be entirely appropriate for B.Net; as you say, the community isn't just here, and, lets face it, the optimatch is nearly dead anyway, there's much more appropriate places where there'll be a better response. The same applies to things like the very minor balance details of what may or may not be in Halo 3. I've said this throughout, and the only thing I've raised was the HaloGen shutdown where the official response was posted on an unofficial forum. I just want to know is if your statement (That B.Net should no longer be taken as the definitive, first source) applies to the whole spectrum of Bungie news?

[Edited on 05.02.2007 1:15 PM PDT]

  • 05.02.2007 1:02 PM PDT

Tom Achronos
Bungie.net Overlord
twitter: http://twitter.com/Achronos

"I have no words that would do justice to the atrocities you commit to the English language, as well as your continued assaults on the concepts of basic literacy and logical reasoning."

Ah, I see. No, I was referring to that particular user's desire to be the first the know something. Bungie news will generally still be found here first - we try to always do that as much as possible. However, we have not made a habit of "rumor busting" except for the biggest stuff on our news stories... and certainly don't do it in the forums with sticky posts and such as that poster seemed to want. In this case, Frankie was just reading one of the many forums that he he does, and made a quick correction... just as I often do here.

So - news, official announcements, big rumor busting... yes. The only forum we'll make posts in, yeah, nobody gets the exclusive there. That is a fact of life people just have to live with.

Posted by: elmicker
I wasn't referring to that incident in particular, just that sentence really surprised me. Back before Halo 2's release/Halo 3's announcement", the line was always "As soon as there's some news, it'll be here on the front page first." Then to see you say that we wouldn't always be the first to know surprised me. Now i personally don't consider something like a playlist update to be entirely appropriate for B.Net; as you say, the community isn't just here, and, lets face it, the optimatch is nearly dead anyway, there's much more appropriate places where there'll be a better response. The same applies to things like the very minor balance details of what may or may not be in Halo 3. I've said this throughout, and the only thing I've raised was the HaloGen shutdown where the official response was posted on an unofficial forum. I just want to know is if your statement (That B.Net should no longer be taken as the definitive, first source) applies to the whole spectrum of Bungie news?

  • 05.02.2007 1:50 PM PDT
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Posted by: Achronos
Lots of text


Um, I checked the news archive, and there is no mention at all, of the removal of big team. So i cant directly discuss what was said, could you provide us with a link to the weekly update to continue this?

Also, I understand your point concerning people being unreasonable and unwilling to accept the changes, what I am saying is that if the problems were explained in depth, it would allow forum users to offer better and more focused solutions to various MM problems. As it is now, the 6v6 list is(IMO) going to be broken, due to the larger maps, combined with smaller numbers of players, and the guests quitting situation. Problems like this should be adressed before throwing the update out, as it is a pretty clear issue. This is simply an example, and i cant really give more specific items without being able to quote the weekly update.

[Edited on 05.02.2007 4:48 PM PDT]

  • 05.02.2007 4:44 PM PDT
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Posted by: Recon Number 54
Posted by: Death v2
Um, I checked the news archive, and there is no mention at all, of the removal of big team. So i cant directly discuss what was said, could you provide us with a link to the weekly update to continue this?


News Article and the related discussion of the update.
Thanks.


Posted by: Death v2
Also, I understand your point concerning people being unreasonable and unwilling to accept the changes, what I am saying is that if the problems were explained in depth, it would allow forum users to offer better and more focused solutions to various MM problems. As it is now, the 6v6 list is(IMO) going to be broken, due to the larger maps, combined with smaller numbers of players, and the guests quitting situation. Problems like this should be adressed before throwing the update out, as it is a pretty clear issue. This is simply an example, and i cant really give more specific items without being able to quote the weekly update.

In other words, you want to be "at the table" regarding the decisions, not just informed of them.
No, I am saying that it would be good for users to know what was wrong with MM in order to focus their discussions in a more constructive manner.


Optimatch (with or without Jeremiah) and The News (after Frankie's posted an Update) are not an invitation into the decision process. In the same manner that the Halo 3 forum is not for "valuable user input into what the game should be". They are there for the fan community to discuss (amongst themselves) what they think of "exhibit A" or "playlist B". The REAL discussion and decision making process occurs at Bungie and none of us have a seat at that table. Now that may fly in the face of many members, one look at any forum and it is apparent that people feel that they are speaking to (or praying to) Bungie and hope that their idea, proposal, observation, wish, request, etc. is granted. Despite that widespread assumption, I do not believe that is the point or purpose of any of these forums.
If they are trying to discuss playlists, wouldnt it be very helpful, if not vital, to have an understanding of why decisions are made and the underlying reasons for these changes. I would think that it would definatly be a good idea for them to have as much information as can be provided within reasonable circumstances. The section of the update refering to playlist changes in the news post is as follows Now, the Matchmaking Playlist update will cause the same kind of growing pains as last time we updated the map selection – with some playlists unavailable to folks who don’t have the new maps (the reasons why are pretty self-evident) but here’s how the new Matchmaking playlists will break down when they go live next week: This section was followed by the new lists. He discusses maps only, and doesnt give any reasons at all, to explain the changes, instead he basically says, hey we got new maps, and were taking taking out pit, btb, and so on...

Would it have been dificult for him to show some usage stats, and to say that the low usage in these areas made us think changes are needed here, here, etc. I mean, with one focused paragraph he could give more information than is avalible to the community.


You mention that discussion would "allow forum users to offer better and more focused solutions to various MM problems". I disagree. No one in the forums is in a position to offer anything other than their opinion on what has occurred or what has recently been announced. Having a place to voice opinion is not the same as having an influence on the decision-making process or people. Bungie staffers do take the time to read it, but they keep their own counsel and make their own decisions. If any member wants to be in on that process, a job application is a logical first step.
I shouldve been more specific with my wording, it would allow them to come up with suggestions and possible solutions for some MM problems. Optimatch is an inlet into the decision making process, as a universal concensus in optimatch alerts the guys at bungie to problems and usually allows them to have larger problems quickly solved. An example of this is the banshee on team rifles ascention, an obvious problem was allowed to slip through the test phase, but the community used optimatch to alert bungie of the problem and it was quickly solved. This type of capacity is what i would consider to be the biggest reason for optimatch, that is to provide suggestions and give the feelings of the community on changes. If users dont know the reasons behind decisions the effectiveness of the optimatch, under this capacity, is greatly reduced.


So, it is clear to me that "Sketch should post more often" is not a request for more information, but for more ACCESS. That if Sketch were to make more posts, they would then be an opening in a dialog where the membership could then have "Bungie's ear". In my years of being a fan, that sort of dialog has been on Bungie's terms, not on the terms and conditions of the community.

It is a request for access to information. If sketch were to make more posts they would open a dialogue between users, which if constructive enough, could be noticed by bungie officials who would then make a judgement call as to wether or not any of the topics are indeed a good idea or shouldnt be implimented.

[Edited on 05.02.2007 5:58 PM PDT]

  • 05.02.2007 5:51 PM PDT
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Posted by: Death v2

Would it have been dificult for him to show some usage stats, and to say that the low usage in these areas made us think changes are needed here, here, etc. I mean, with one focused paragraph he could give more information than is avalible to the community..


He said that the changes were due to a shrinking online population. What more do you need? Why would you need to see the statistics? I don't think sketchfactor is going to lie about the statistics in order to piss off the BTB and Rumble pit supporters. That would be unreasonable especially since he didn't remove any lists, he just consolidated them.

Also your assumption that optimatch was the lone voice that caught the Banshee Error is troubling.

  • 05.02.2007 9:51 PM PDT
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anyone who's played more than you has no life

anyone who's played less than you is a noob

Here's a question for you Recon: do you think it would have been better for the MM system and playlists therein if the optimatch forum had not existed since Halo 2's release?

The fact is our discussion [as you wish to call it] or our input [as Death v2 wishes to call it] has been beneficial to MM over the years. A whole bunch of people [including me] have spent a great deal of time in Optimatch trying to make posts for the betterment of MM. I've seen ideas in there that were so insightful and brilliant that it shocked me - you just have to sift through all the crap first.

Common courtesy for the people who've been trying to help out their favourite game by discussing / having input into the playlist ideas would be nice. Give us some solid reasons - there's a lot of people hacked off out there. "Oh yeh so um population is decreasing so BTB as you know it wont exist anymore" just doesn't cut it - I'm sorry if you think it does. They [in the know] must have better reasons than that [or at least I hope they do]. What's a little CTRL+C anyway?

[Edited on 05.03.2007 2:58 AM PDT]

  • 05.03.2007 2:57 AM PDT
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Posted by: Recon Number 54
Posted by: Death v2
Would it have been dificult for him to show some usage stats, and to say that the low usage in these areas made us think changes are needed here, here, etc. I mean, with one focused paragraph he could give more information than is avalible to the community.

Difficult? I don't know, but I doubt it. But again, if you were just asking for information (and not dialog) then that information isn't required.

If we shouldnt have the information to discuss the changes why have the optimatch forum all together? It is a forum designed to discuss these things, and if it isnt difficult, why not give them accurate information to discuss MM, when that is the suggested aim of the forums listed on this site.

Posted by: Death v2
It is a request for access to information. If sketch were to make more posts they would open a dialogue between users, which if constructive enough, could be noticed by bungie officials who would then make a judgement call as to wether or not any of the topics are indeed a good idea or shouldnt be implimented.

You HAVE been in OptiMatch recently, haven't you? Constructive? Again, you are presuming that the members here have (or should have) a seat at the decision-making table. We don't. You may think that we should. But we don't.

Did I ever say that I said they had a seat? I said it COULD be noticed, not that it would, or that it should even be looked for, I am simply saying that it makes it in an area accesssable for bungie officials to see if they choose to look however is up to them.


Posted by: Death v2
I shouldve been more specific with my wording, it would allow them to come up with suggestions and possible solutions for some MM problems. Optimatch is an inlet into the decision making process, as a universal concensus in optimatch alerts the guys at bungie to problems and usually allows them to have larger problems quickly solved. An example of this is the banshee on team rifles ascention, an obvious problem was allowed to slip through the test phase, but the community used optimatch to alert bungie of the problem and it was quickly solved. This type of capacity is what i would consider to be the biggest reason for optimatch, that is to provide suggestions and give the feelings of the community on changes. If users dont know the reasons behind decisions the effectiveness of the optimatch, under this capacity, is greatly reduced.

We're talking about the same Optimatch aren't we?

Suggestions? Solutions? An Inlet to the decision making process? A "universal consensus"?

I am definitely going to a different Optimatch forum than you. The example of the Banshee on Ascension was made clear to Bungie through every community channel out there. There were posts in EVERY one of the public forums here (even the ones where it was off topic) and on boards and blogs all over. The Optimatch forum didn't discover or solve the problem in a vacuum. Bungie certainly didn't resolve the issue because of "just those threads in just that forum". Optimatch isn't a playtest feedback tool. It's a discussion forum on a fan community board.
Nor did I say that it was the only area that caused it to be solved, what I was saying was that a problem which wouldve been noticed by the community before the release was quickly pointed out, just as problems with the upcoming update could be pointed out before they had a negative effect on MM. It isnt a feedback tool? Are you joking? You mean to tell me that N0F simply posted there because he was bored and felt like hitting keys on his computer? Are you saying that there have been no contributions made to MM from optimatch? I dont think we have been going to the same optimatch if you really think that.


Once more, this is simply my opinion (which is simply in disagreement with yours). But I don't believe and don't mind that we're not invited to the decision making process. We're welcome to discuss (and given a place to do so) what we think of current, past and possible future decisions. But I have no indication that Bungie ever implied, suggested, or said that Optimatch discussion (even if a "universal consensus" were ever achieved, which it never is) would result in anything other than a thread being opened and read if it caught someone's eye.
Ive said numerous times that we dont have, nor do we expect seat at the decision making table. What I have consistantly said is that we should be given pertinent information when reasonable and not too much of a burden, in order to allow the optimatch forum to hold constructive, to the point discussions, as opposed to the shot in the dark random inference based discussions that go on without any knowledge of the reasons behind things and an accurate depiction of the MM system.


Your "reasons for Optimatch" do not match what I believe is the purpose and intent of that forum. I think that your assumption is the root cause of your unhappiness with what you consider to be "the problem". If you look at the replies in this thread, of the people who disagree with you, they almost all appear to not share that preconception as to the point and purpose of Optimatch.

And none of them actually go into optimatch, so I dont really think that they would have much of an informed concept of what goes on there, nor would they be able to get a sense of the value of the information being left out in the update posts. If you look at the optimatch regulars, like necare and others, the people who would know, they seem to hold the same general idea as me, I think your counter arguement to this might suggest that they are making these posts in order to gain information or for other reasons, but I simply think otherwise.

  • 05.03.2007 8:06 AM PDT
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Ok. My question.

Frankie, SketchFactor and co. may not post here much, but do they at least read what we have to say?

Finding out what your fans are thinking is important. If they don't post, I can live with that. If they totally ignore us, then I have a problem.

  • 05.03.2007 9:19 AM PDT