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Subject: As community guy, and now incharge of MM should sketch post more of...
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Posted by: Recon Number 54
Posted by: necare
Here's a question for you Recon: do you think it would have been better for the MM system and playlists therein if the optimatch forum had not existed since Halo 2's release?

The fact is our discussion [as you wish to call it] or our input [as Death v2 wishes to call it] has been beneficial to MM over the years. A whole bunch of people [including me] have spent a great deal of time in Optimatch trying to make posts for the betterment of MM. I've seen ideas in there that were so insightful and brilliant that it shocked me - you just have to sift through all the crap first.

Common courtesy for the people who've been trying to help out their favourite game by discussing / having input into the playlist ideas would be nice. Give us some solid reasons - there's a lot of people hacked off out there. "Oh yeh so um population is decreasing so BTB as you know it wont exist anymore" just doesn't cut it - I'm sorry if you think it does. They [in the know] must have better reasons than that [or at least I hope they do]. What's a little CTRL+C anyway?

I believe that the Optimatch forum has been immensely beneficial to the community. That the topics there have allowed people to voice their concerns, satisfaction, dissatisfaction, issues, ideas, complaints, suggestions, criticisms, but the discussion that followed (between members) were what was important and valuable. The fact that someone could say something from "I want a Zombies playlist!" to those "insightful and brilliant ideas" and then the members would discuss it. That (to me) is the benefit and the purpose of the forum. The fact that the community can discuss and exchange views.
So if it isnt too much trouble why not give the optimatch forum the information to allow and enhance these discusions and make them more realistic in their nature.


The "influence" that it has on actual decisions on MatchMaking is unknown (to me and to the rest of the membership). We can all have opinions on whether those discussions have a direct impact, an indirect impact, or little influence at all, but the only people who know for certain are those who actually make the decisions regarding MM. In some cases, especially playlists that were stated to be developed (or inspired) by community input there is a connection, I don't deny that. I also didn't miss the fact that even those lists were not 100% copy-paste of the proposed settings from those selected communities. Bungie tweaked and altered the settings based on information and perspective that was theirs alone.
This is correct, but it has been said numerous times that NoF has his eye on a thread, or that some of the changes first brought to light here are going into effect. If they didnt take the ideas into consideration, there would be no need for them to post there instead of moderation.


So to answer your question, I think that the benefit of Optimatch has been primarily to the members of the community having the discussion. Anyone from the person with the Zombies suggestion learning/realizing that "honor rules" are unable to work in a MM gametype to the brilliant and insightful ideas that were refined and only got better BECAUSE they were seen, considered and refined by the membership. I think that the exchange of ideas and the raising of awareness and understanding is the main benefit of the forum.
And without an explination of why honors rules wouldnt work they wouldnt know this, it is the same with reasons behind playlist changes. Once again, all that I am asking is for these users to post some information and explinations to enhance the exchange of ideas that you say is the main benefit of this forum.


A side benefit, (but difficult to quantify) is that those discussions have also been a window into the opinion and desires of a sample of the MM community. A sample, because the members of this site who post in Optimatch, the people with the good ideas, the not so good, the ones with personal crusades who make multiple accounts to have circle-discussions with themselves and keep their pet-playlist a hot topic, all of those people are a small sample(and not a statistically accurate sample) of the hundreds of thousands who play MM.
I agree with this, which is why ive said that changes are usually based on a general concensus, or after a lot of debate. Thus, these people who negativly effect optimatch have very little, if any, effcect on the changes and the end conclusion of a thread.


There are people who I am sure participate in those discussions because they "want to help make a difference". And they do. But if they thought that their words were suggestions for Bungie primarily and for their fellow members to discuss secondarily, I believe that they have their intended and actual audiences reversed.
But, it is clear that changes have come forward from this, NoF has said a few times that ideas from a thread will be implimented.

Posting an idea or opinion on an online forum can never be anything more than a drop in the data-bucket for those who make and are responsible for the real decisions. It certainly isn't a round-table discussion with the decision makers where the participants of the Optimatch forum are granted a vote in what actually happens.
But the posting of a reasonable and well explained though process with a solution, points, etc. if kept towards the top of the forums, will eventually get noticed and even effect the thoughts of those incharge of of MM.

  • 05.03.2007 10:21 AM PDT
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Posted by: THE CHIEF 87
Ok. My question.

Frankie, SketchFactor and co. may not post here much, but do they at least read what we have to say?

Finding out what your fans are thinking is important. If they don't post, I can live with that. If they totally ignore us, then I have a problem.


Obviosuly nobody can answer this question but them, and the fact that they havent yet speaks towards a no... IMO

  • 05.03.2007 10:24 AM PDT

I'm not that active, but never dead.

BIG HUGE DISCUSSION

So, Death V2, I think what you are really asking for is a more detailed, real-time stats feed. You're not really asking for Bungie input, just access to more information.
If you had a breakdown of "# of people on BTB, # of people on TS, # of people on Team Snipers, etc." would that satisfy you?

-Alex :|

[Edited on 05.03.2007 12:27 PM PDT]

  • 05.03.2007 12:26 PM PDT
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Posted by: AlexZander
BIG HUGE DISCUSSION

So, Death V2, I think what you are really asking for is a more detailed, real-time stats feed. You're not really asking for Bungie input, just access to more information.
If you had a breakdown of "# of people on BTB, # of people on TS, # of people on Team Snipers, etc." would that satisfy you?

-Alex :|


That would definatly go a long way, like I said, we arent guarenteed anything, so anything would be good, but the things everyone really want are the usage stats, and prehaps a breif explination on how they think that the updates are going to change things or solve problems. But yes, anything that would focus the discussion would make things better.

  • 05.03.2007 12:44 PM PDT
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Posted by: Death v2
Posted by: AlexZander
BIG HUGE DISCUSSION

So, Death V2, I think what you are really asking for is a more detailed, real-time stats feed. You're not really asking for Bungie input, just access to more information.
If you had a breakdown of "# of people on BTB, # of people on TS, # of people on Team Snipers, etc." would that satisfy you?

-Alex :|


That would definatly go a long way, like I said, we arent guarenteed anything, so anything would be good, but the things everyone really want are the usage stats, and prehaps a breif explination on how they think that the updates are going to change things or solve problems. But yes, anything that would focus the discussion would make things better.


And what else would you like Santa to bring you?
A pony?
A new doll?
How about a handgun that you can eat?

  • 05.03.2007 1:40 PM PDT
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Posted by: shiv master
And what else would you like Santa to bring you?
A pony?
A new doll?
How about a handgun that you can eat?

Chill it out will ye. We have a play nice rule that should not be forgotten.

  • 05.03.2007 2:47 PM PDT
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Tact is for those who aren't witty enough to be sarcastic.

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Posted by: just another fan
Posted by: shiv master
And what else would you like Santa to bring you?
A pony?
A new doll?
How about a handgun that you can eat?

Chill it out will ye. We have a play nice rule that should not be forgotten.


Come on now...you aren't just a little little tired of watching him blather on, page after page, saying the same thing over and over no matter who refutes him or what they say?

  • 05.03.2007 2:56 PM PDT
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Posted by: shiv master
Posted by: just another fan
Posted by: shiv master
And what else would you like Santa to bring you?
A pony?
A new doll?
How about a handgun that you can eat?

Chill it out will ye. We have a play nice rule that should not be forgotten.


Come on now...you aren't just a little little tired of watching him blather on, page after page, saying the same thing over and over no matter who refutes him or what they say?


I believe there is a rule in China called The Golden Rule...
Anyway, I think the 'big picture' is that he is reaching out to other members of the Bungie/Halo fan nation via televised communication and not just this site. Although he could have more posting, but there are probably thousands of people who don't even know about the site and love the game. MTV and such are good way to get communicating. Also, the drinking with hawt chickz is a nice thought. And I'm sure he's trying his best. If he's so busy with so and so maybe we should give hi a break, or something. Moreover, I'm drinking a Coca-Cola caffiene free!

-Grand Prime

  • 05.03.2007 7:32 PM PDT
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Posted by: Grand Prime
Posted by: shiv master
Posted by: just another fan
Posted by: shiv master
And what else would you like Santa to bring you?
A pony?
A new doll?
How about a handgun that you can eat?

Chill it out will ye. We have a play nice rule that should not be forgotten.


Come on now...you aren't just a little little tired of watching him blather on, page after page, saying the same thing over and over no matter who refutes him or what they say?


I believe there is a rule in China called The Golden Rule...
Anyway, I think the 'big picture' is that he is reaching out to other members of the Bungie/Halo fan nation via televised communication and not just this site.
Ummmm when we say HBO we are'nt talking about the television channel.

Its pretty amazing that shiv gets warned by a moderator and continues to post, yet I am the one blathering on. Please shiv, i'm asking you to stop posting in here as you are simply trolling and causing problems. You talk about users being unreasonable, but you are so unreasonable that when asked by a moderator to stop, you continue to try to cause problems, so I'm asking you to listen to your own advice and stop acting unreasonable.

Now, to get back onto the point, I personally think that a simple copy and paste job of the usage stats would go a long way in optimatch, a breif explination would go even further, and an update on and major release of information here as opposed to other sites would leave almost nothing to be desired from the community. We are simply asking for a couple of small things to be done a little differently. Is it unreasonable to ask that important information be released on the official site as opposed to other areas, and that major changes and updates be explained?

[Edited on 05.04.2007 6:21 AM PDT]

  • 05.04.2007 4:48 AM PDT
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Posted by: Death v2
Now, to get back onto the point, I personally think that a simple copy and paste job of the usage stats would go a long way in optimatch, a


Why would you need that? Sketchfactor said there was a shrinking population and low usage in a playlist (there's your explanation), and he did his best to accommodate that. How would posting usage stats go a long way?

  • 05.04.2007 9:14 AM PDT
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Posted by: Sketto
Posted by: Death v2
Now, to get back onto the point, I personally think that a simple copy and paste job of the usage stats would go a long way in optimatch, a


Why would you need that? Sketchfactor said there was a shrinking population and low usage in a playlist (there's your explanation), and he did his best to accommodate that. How would posting usage stats go a long way?


A "low" usage is an ambiguous term, it could mean almost anything, plus it begs various other questions, why choose these lists to take to the chopping block as opposed to others with low usage, which ones couldve been substituted, what might be next, etc. Showing playlist %s would show all of the lists with low usage, allow members to see what the combined %s of the two btb and RP to get a general idea of the usage of the new playlists, to see what other lists might be nearing their ends, amoung other things. The playlist usage stats are a wealth of information fo many cases.

[Edited on 05.04.2007 12:34 PM PDT]

  • 05.04.2007 12:32 PM PDT
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Posted by: Death v2
A "low" usage is an ambiguous term, it could mean almost anything, plus it begs various other questions, why choose these lists to take to the chopping block as opposed to others with low usage, which ones couldve been substituted, what might be next, etc. Showing playlist %s would show all of the lists with low usage, allow members to see what the combined %s of the two btb and RP to get a general idea of the usage of the new playlists, to see what other lists might be nearing their ends, amoung other things. The playlist usage stats are a wealth of information fo many cases.


Low usage means that not enough people play that playlist how is that ambiguous?

Sketch did not remove a single list he merely consolidated them, if he did remove a playlist entirely then I would want to see usage stats for justification bu he didn't.

Why is it so important to be able to predict what usage % the new playlists might have, why is it important to see what playlists might possibly be removed? Usages stats are nice to look at, do they go a "long way"? No.

  • 05.04.2007 1:00 PM PDT
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Tact is for those who aren't witty enough to be sarcastic.

No use cryin' over Spillt Milk

Posted by: Sketto
Posted by: Death v2
A "low" usage is an ambiguous term, it could mean almost anything, plus it begs various other questions, why choose these lists to take to the chopping block as opposed to others with low usage, which ones couldve been substituted, what might be next, etc. Showing playlist %s would show all of the lists with low usage, allow members to see what the combined %s of the two btb and RP to get a general idea of the usage of the new playlists, to see what other lists might be nearing their ends, amoung other things. The playlist usage stats are a wealth of information fo many cases.


Low usage means that not enough people play that playlist how is that ambiguous?

Sketch did not remove a single list he merely consolidated them, if he did remove a playlist entirely then I would want to see usage stats for justification bu he didn't.

Why is it so important to be able to predict what usage % the new playlists might have, why is it important to see what playlists might possibly be removed? Usages stats are nice to look at, do they go a "long way"? No.



None of those things are important, unless you believe that Bungie owes us a statistical ana1ysis for every change that they make to their own matchmaking system.
I personally expect a spreadsheet...or better yet, a pie chart...showing how often Achronos blows his nose, with an accompanying volume and frequency addendum.
Look, I think we all like to be informed, but the reality of the situation is that the level of involvement that this six page riot is calling for is probably far from cost effective for Bungie to produce with the regularity being demanded.
I don't believe that we as a community have any right to more information than we are currently given. If we have no right, than we have no reasonable expectation of being provided with said information.
Is it nice to know how many people actually play btb (God help them)?
Yes.
Is it necessary or even reasonably expected?
No.
Are most people happy accepting Bungie's word that some playlists must go because they aren't frequented enough?
Yes.
Are there those who enjoy btb (again, God help them) who would/will be angry about its removal enough to demand proof?
Yes again.
Should they be catered to?
I don't think so.

  • 05.04.2007 1:54 PM PDT
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Posted by: Sketto
Posted by: Death v2
A "low" usage is an ambiguous term, it could mean almost anything, plus it begs various other questions, why choose these lists to take to the chopping block as opposed to others with low usage, which ones couldve been substituted, what might be next, etc. Showing playlist %s would show all of the lists with low usage, allow members to see what the combined %s of the two btb and RP to get a general idea of the usage of the new playlists, to see what other lists might be nearing their ends, amoung other things. The playlist usage stats are a wealth of information fo many cases.


Low usage means that not enough people play that playlist how is that ambiguous?

That is what it means to you personally, but for others that definition might be different, to me a list can have a low usage and not require removal. When I saw the last stats i thought THC, TSK, etc. were low usage, and they werent removed.


Sketch did not remove a single list he merely consolidated them, if he did remove a playlist entirely then I would want to see usage stats for justification bu he didn't.
He in effect did remove RP ranked... anyways, thats your personal opinion and your personal wants.


Why is it so important to be able to predict what usage % the new playlists might have, why is it important to see what playlists might possibly be removed? Usages stats are nice to look at, do they go a "long way"? No.

To see how things would work, focus discussions, allow for new ideas, etc.

[Edited on 05.04.2007 2:08 PM PDT]

  • 05.04.2007 2:08 PM PDT

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"When the stress burns my brain just like acid rain drops, Mary Jane's the only thang that makes the pain stop." The Best Group "The Gunslingers"

Posted by: shiv master
Posted by: Sketto
Posted by: Death v2
A "low" usage is an ambiguous term, it could mean almost anything, plus it begs various other questions, why choose these lists to take to the chopping block as opposed to others with low usage, which ones couldve been substituted, what might be next, etc. Showing playlist %s would show all of the lists with low usage, allow members to see what the combined %s of the two btb and RP to get a general idea of the usage of the new playlists, to see what other lists might be nearing their ends, amoung other things. The playlist usage stats are a wealth of information fo many cases.


Low usage means that not enough people play that playlist how is that ambiguous?

Sketch did not remove a single list he merely consolidated them, if he did remove a playlist entirely then I would want to see usage stats for justification bu he didn't.

Why is it so important to be able to predict what usage % the new playlists might have, why is it important to see what playlists might possibly be removed? Usages stats are nice to look at, do they go a "long way"? No.



None of those things are important, unless you believe that Bungie owes us a statistical ana1ysis for every change that they make to their own matchmaking system.
I personally expect a spreadsheet...or better yet, a pie chart...showing how often Achronos blows his nose, with an accompanying volume and frequency addendum.
Look, I think we all like to be informed, but the reality of the situation is that the level of involvement that this six page riot is calling for is probably far from cost effective for Bungie to produce with the regularity being demanded.
I don't believe that we as a community have any right to more information than we are currently given. If we have no right, than we have no reasonable expectation of being provided with said information.
Is it nice to know how many people actually play btb (God help them)?
Yes.
Is it necessary or even reasonably expected?
No.
Are most people happy accepting Bungie's word that some playlists must go because they aren't frequented enough?
Yes.
Are there those who enjoy btb (again, God help them) who would/will be angry about its removal enough to demand proof?
Yes again.
Should they be catered to?
I don't think so.


I want a nekkid pic of Sketch removing BTB from MM.

.....and I'm pretty sure I deserve to have my wish granted seeing how I DID pay $50 to play their game.

  • 05.04.2007 2:11 PM PDT
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Posted by: shiv master
Posted by: Sketto
Posted by: Death v2
A "low" usage is an ambiguous term, it could mean almost anything, plus it begs various other questions, why choose these lists to take to the chopping block as opposed to others with low usage, which ones couldve been substituted, what might be next, etc. Showing playlist %s would show all of the lists with low usage, allow members to see what the combined %s of the two btb and RP to get a general idea of the usage of the new playlists, to see what other lists might be nearing their ends, amoung other things. The playlist usage stats are a wealth of information fo many cases.


Low usage means that not enough people play that playlist how is that ambiguous?

Sketch did not remove a single list he merely consolidated them, if he did remove a playlist entirely then I would want to see usage stats for justification bu he didn't.

Why is it so important to be able to predict what usage % the new playlists might have, why is it important to see what playlists might possibly be removed? Usages stats are nice to look at, do they go a "long way"? No.



None of those things are important

So your entire post is based off of your personal views of usage stats? They are not to you, but they are to others. That might explain why you think a request for them as unreasonable, you consider the value to effort ratio very low, because you dont value them...

  • 05.04.2007 2:12 PM PDT
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Tact is for those who aren't witty enough to be sarcastic.

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Posted by: Death v2
Posted by: shiv master
Posted by: Sketto
Posted by: Death v2
A "low" usage is an ambiguous term, it could mean almost anything, plus it begs various other questions, why choose these lists to take to the chopping block as opposed to others with low usage, which ones couldve been substituted, what might be next, etc. Showing playlist %s would show all of the lists with low usage, allow members to see what the combined %s of the two btb and RP to get a general idea of the usage of the new playlists, to see what other lists might be nearing their ends, amoung other things. The playlist usage stats are a wealth of information fo many cases.


Low usage means that not enough people play that playlist how is that ambiguous?

Sketch did not remove a single list he merely consolidated them, if he did remove a playlist entirely then I would want to see usage stats for justification bu he didn't.

Why is it so important to be able to predict what usage % the new playlists might have, why is it important to see what playlists might possibly be removed? Usages stats are nice to look at, do they go a "long way"? No.



None of those things are important

So your entire post is based off of your personal views of usage stats? They are not to you, but they are to others. That might explain why you think a request for them as unreasonable, you consider the value to effort ratio very low, because you dont value them...


I was under the impression that this entire thread was about your opinion, and what you consider important.
Since I haven't seen you post any corroborated fact, I have to assume that is still the case.

  • 05.04.2007 2:26 PM PDT
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Posted by: shiv master
Posted by: Death v2
Posted by: shiv master
Posted by: Sketto
Posted by: Death v2
A "low" usage is an ambiguous term, it could mean almost anything, plus it begs various other questions, why choose these lists to take to the chopping block as opposed to others with low usage, which ones couldve been substituted, what might be next, etc. Showing playlist %s would show all of the lists with low usage, allow members to see what the combined %s of the two btb and RP to get a general idea of the usage of the new playlists, to see what other lists might be nearing their ends, amoung other things. The playlist usage stats are a wealth of information fo many cases.


Low usage means that not enough people play that playlist how is that ambiguous?

Sketch did not remove a single list he merely consolidated them, if he did remove a playlist entirely then I would want to see usage stats for justification bu he didn't.

Why is it so important to be able to predict what usage % the new playlists might have, why is it important to see what playlists might possibly be removed? Usages stats are nice to look at, do they go a "long way"? No.



None of those things are important

So your entire post is based off of your personal views of usage stats? They are not to you, but they are to others. That might explain why you think a request for them as unreasonable, you consider the value to effort ratio very low, because you dont value them...


I was under the impression that this entire thread was about your opinion, and what you consider important.
Since I haven't seen you post any corroborated fact, I have to assume that is still the case.

Actually I stated their value in relation to the optimatch forum and their value in acheiving the goal of that forum.

  • 05.04.2007 2:30 PM PDT
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Tact is for those who aren't witty enough to be sarcastic.

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Posted by: Death v2
Posted by: shiv master
Posted by: Death v2
Posted by: shiv master
Posted by: Sketto
Posted by: Death v2
A "low" usage is an ambiguous term, it could mean almost anything, plus it begs various other questions, why choose these lists to take to the chopping block as opposed to others with low usage, which ones couldve been substituted, what might be next, etc. Showing playlist %s would show all of the lists with low usage, allow members to see what the combined %s of the two btb and RP to get a general idea of the usage of the new playlists, to see what other lists might be nearing their ends, amoung other things. The playlist usage stats are a wealth of information fo many cases.


Low usage means that not enough people play that playlist how is that ambiguous?

Sketch did not remove a single list he merely consolidated them, if he did remove a playlist entirely then I would want to see usage stats for justification bu he didn't.

Why is it so important to be able to predict what usage % the new playlists might have, why is it important to see what playlists might possibly be removed? Usages stats are nice to look at, do they go a "long way"? No.



None of those things are important

So your entire post is based off of your personal views of usage stats? They are not to you, but they are to others. That might explain why you think a request for them as unreasonable, you consider the value to effort ratio very low, because you dont value them...


I was under the impression that this entire thread was about your opinion, and what you consider important.
Since I haven't seen you post any corroborated fact, I have to assume that is still the case.

Actually I stated their value in relation to the optimatch forum and their value in acheiving the goal of that forum.


All of those values are relative to, and weighted by, your personal opinion.

  • 05.04.2007 2:35 PM PDT

Spillt Milk--Where our weekends are so far advanced they encompass the entire week.
"When the stress burns my brain just like acid rain drops, Mary Jane's the only thang that makes the pain stop." The Best Group "The Gunslingers"

What's the definition of opinion?

I think I forgot...

  • 05.04.2007 2:35 PM PDT
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Tact is for those who aren't witty enough to be sarcastic.

No use cryin' over Spillt Milk

Posted by: POCALLIK
What's the definition of opinion?

I think I forgot...


Apparently someone else has too!

  • 05.04.2007 2:45 PM PDT
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Actually it is a fact that usage stats are very benificial to playlist discussions, the goal of the optimatch forum

[Edited on 05.04.2007 2:59 PM PDT]

  • 05.04.2007 2:56 PM PDT
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Posted by: Death v2
That is what it means to you personally, but for others that definition might be different, to me a list can have a low usage and not require removal. When I saw the last stats i thought THC, TSK, etc. were low usage, and they werent removed.


He in effect did remove RP ranked... anyways, thats your personal opinion and your personal wants.

To see how things would work, focus discussions, allow for new ideas, etc.


Low usage means low usage. Just because you think Low usage doesn't warrant a playlist to be removed doesn't make the definition of low usage ambiguous. No playlists were even removed so Sketchfactor did not go against your beliefs. He didn't removed "rumble pit ranked" that's not even a playlist. Making a playlist unranked isn't the same as removing it.

Usage Stats don't allow for new ideas. What's stopping people from coming up with ideas? Numbers? Seeing how MM works isn't important. You make usage stats seem like they will solve all of matchmaking's problems


Smart edit by the way, good thing no one saw that accusation. Then people would think that you are a paranoid hypocrite...oh wait hahaha

  • 05.04.2007 3:15 PM PDT
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Tact is for those who aren't witty enough to be sarcastic.

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Posted by: Death v2
Actually it is a fact that usage stats are very benificial to playlist discussions, the goal of the optimatch forum


Quite. I agree that such figures are beneficial to Bungie personnel.
The issue is why, and even if, the bnet community should be privy to these statistics.
There just isn't any reason other than "it would be nice".

  • 05.04.2007 3:27 PM PDT