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  • Subject: Edited Title: my poetry.
Subject: Edited Title: my poetry.
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Posted by: Abolitionofman
University of California, Santa Cruz.

A lot more north, and a lot more gorgeous :)

ok, right on.

  • 05.30.2004 11:38 PM PDT
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Finally decided to limit the access to that folder :-p

  • 05.30.2004 11:48 PM PDT
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Posted by: ObbiQuiet
On Fire, Life, Death, and Processes:

To make fire you need three things: heat, fuel, and oxygen. When you have these things a process is created – the process of burning. The flame dances about, feeding off the energy of that which it consumes. Take away one of those things and the process ends – the burning stops. Did the flame go somewhere? No. The flame never existed. It didn’t, at least, exist as a single identifiable entity. It was merely a collection of processes.
As are human beings!
When a flame burns out, whom but a child says, “Where does the flame go?”
When a person dies, who but a theologian says, “Where does the soul go?”



Wow that's deep.

  • 05.31.2004 2:19 AM PDT
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It's only deep because you're stoned. :P

  • 05.31.2004 10:36 AM PDT
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Posted by: Bring the Noise
Posted by: ObbiQuiet
On Fire, Life, Death, and Processes:

To make fire you need three things: heat, fuel, and oxygen. When you have these things a process is created – the process of burning. The flame dances about, feeding off the energy of that which it consumes. Take away one of those things and the process ends – the burning stops. Did the flame go somewhere? No. The flame never existed. It didn’t, at least, exist as a single identifiable entity. It was merely a collection of processes.
As are human beings!
When a flame burns out, whom but a child says, “Where does the flame go?”
When a person dies, who but a theologian says, “Where does the soul go?”



Wow that's deep.

I must be stoned, too. I've read some things comparing the essence of man to a flame, but they all seemed to avoid the comparison of how we view them that's shown at the end of this writing. It's as if most of us are afraid to fully consider the implications of this oft made comparison or something.

  • 05.31.2004 12:47 PM PDT
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Btw is 'sand' making any progress? (I'm just asking because I saw a new (?) excerpt from it in your sig)

  • 05.31.2004 12:49 PM PDT
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Posted by: Weird citizen
Btw is 'sand' making any progress? (I'm just asking because I saw a new (?) excerpt from it in your sig)


The poetry verion, no. I've started working on the short story version again.

  • 05.31.2004 1:06 PM PDT
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I must be stoned, too. I've read some things comparing the essence of man to a flame, but they all seemed to avoid the comparison of how we view them that's shown at the end of this writing. It's as if most of us are afraid to fully consider the implications of this oft made comparison or something.

There is always the danger of taking an analogy too far, though.

  • 05.31.2004 1:07 PM PDT
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Oh, okay.

  • 05.31.2004 1:08 PM PDT
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"Desert World"

I feel the resistance under my fingertips as I press keys to type this, imagining how the atoms resist one another's fields of influence. As I have been taught to understand, they're no more than antinodes- maximum displacement of ripples in the fabric of my reality, concentrations of force. They aren't solid objects or particles, just fields of force concentrated in small regions and interacting across comparatively vast distances. All the matter in question is just a desert of small traces of force with occasional clusters of stars with thier orbiting electrons. My world is a tiny particle orbiting its nucleus, one of a few in a vast desert of trace matter. As a child I imagined a person much like myself composed of molecules of galaxies, pondering the same things I pondered while eating a sandwich on a timescale I can't comprehend. I imagined myself as a giant of molecules that are whole universes of people living thier lives, with whole suns going through their lifetimes in the blink of an eye. We were all children once.
We don't want to feel alone. We like the idea that there is someone out there who understands what we do, knows what it's like to feel wonder or loneliness or... love. Rarely does one of us consider that we might be alone, only dreaming of other beings. I look at another and feel that I can never reach beyond my own mind. I can see only my interpretation of reality, never another's. No one can see through my eyes, my interface with the world I can share with others. When we look into each other's eyes we only see our mind's projections of what we believe to be out there. Trapped in our bodies, the vehicles with which we venture into a hostile world, we can only see each other's vehicles through our external sensors. This environment is too harsh to survive in naked. I can never touch another person, only the illusion when I forget and let ignorance comfort me.
The atoms are real, I can feel the resistance under my fingers. You are real, and I am real... how could there be any question?

  • 05.31.2004 1:39 PM PDT
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Interesting throughts on our perspective... there would have been one thing I would have added, though.

"We are the universe observing itself."

Edit: And this is in response to you "feeling" the atoms. You ARE the atoms.

[Edited on 5/31/2004 1:52:59 PM]

  • 05.31.2004 1:49 PM PDT
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You know I've actually had similar thoughts when I was younger, but i would never be able to express it like you did. Nice work dude.

  • 05.31.2004 1:49 PM PDT
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Since we're posting our thoughts on the universe, here's one I wrote a while ago:

What can be real? Is there another basis for reality? Is this, observable world, the only one there is? Can we find out what’s real.

Perhaps. We can find out what’s real by consistencies in this world. Things here are physical, and they interact with other physical things.

- But no.

This world doesn’t need to be “physical.” When we touch something we are not touching the universe, rather we are the universe touching itself. Our only means to observe the universe is the universe itself – a piece of an entity observing the larger parts of its whole, judging if they are “real” or not. This physical is only physical according to the physical world.

The abstraction is observed real by the abstraction itself.

Analogy: Math. 1+1=2

Does 1 exist? Can one be touched, tasted, seen, or heard? No. One is a concept, a system of measurement – an abstraction. It exists in the mind.

Yet, despite this thing being nothing but a concept, it doesn’t make it any less real than the universe itself. This thing, not actually existing in reality, has rules applied to it. This thing, added to its identical counterpart abstraction, makes a third abstraction – a “2.”

Just because it’s abstract doesn’t mean it cannot possess laws. Where do these laws come from? They come from beings, bound in a “real” world. How do they know this world is real, how do they think that it is the basis of reality?

They think it is the basis of reality because it possesses laws – it is predictable; consistent.

Isn’t math, also, predictable and consistent?

Yes.

Then isn’t math also a reality? Is it any less real?

Perhaps.

Now to apply the analogy back to the universe: What would make this universe real, if it could just be concepts created by the mind of God?

Answer: If it wasn’t created by God.

  • 05.31.2004 1:55 PM PDT
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Thanks, Citizen.

"We are the universe observing itself." I like that. We are part of the universe for sure, and we're certainly observing it. Have you also had one of those dreams where you wake up remembering being on both sides of a conversation?

  • 05.31.2004 1:55 PM PDT
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Posted by: forumrunner
Thanks, Citizen.

"We are the universe observing itself." I like that. We are part of the universe for sure, and we're certainly observing it. Have you also had one of those dreams where you wake up remembering being on both sides of a conversation?


Yes! I also have multiple personalities in dreams. When I'm restless they'll disagree, and I'll spend forever trying to make them all happy.

  • 05.31.2004 2:00 PM PDT
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Yeah. I like to think that we share mathematics. Unless we're somehow erroneously concluding that one added to one is two, we can depend on it. I would hate to think that we could all be mistaken about something as fundamental as logic... If I can't trust my own reasoning, I can't trust ANYTHING.

  • 05.31.2004 2:01 PM PDT
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When I recondense and awaken, we/I/whatever understand each other's perspective. I only wish that we could all understand each other so well. After comprehending what it means to be trapped in our heads, it feels kinda lonely. I wouldn't give up this Promethean fire, though, however depressing.

  • 05.31.2004 2:05 PM PDT
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Posted by: ObbiQuiet
Now to apply the analogy back to the universe: What would make this universe real, if it could just be concepts created by the mind of God?

Answer: If it wasn’t created by God.


I'm not really understanding that.

  • 05.31.2004 2:06 PM PDT
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Obbi that sounds a lot like Plato (probably intently), although the "not created by god"-part is of course yours. I personally don't believe in much what Plato said because of the necessity of a god-like force. However, what you've said gives a good retort to plato's theory.

(please correct me if I'm very very wrong...)




[Edited on 5/31/2004 2:11:40 PM]

  • 05.31.2004 2:10 PM PDT
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Posted by: Live killa
Posted by: ObbiQuiet
Now to apply the analogy back to the universe: What would make this universe real, if it could just be concepts created by the mind of God?

Answer: If it wasn’t created by God.


I'm not really understanding that.


Abstractions are things created by higher beings. Abstractions are not real in that they are not the fundemental reality. Math is one such abstraction. It is created by us, humans.

Our universe ALSO may be an abstraction, it may not be the fundemental reality. It is real if there is no reality higher - it is real if there was no God to concieve it.

  • 05.31.2004 2:12 PM PDT
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Posted by: Live killa
Posted by: ObbiQuiet
Now to apply the analogy back to the universe: What would make this universe real, if it could just be concepts created by the mind of God?

Answer: If it wasn’t created by God.


I'm not really understanding that.

Wortwortwort! That's because real is subjective. If you use the wrong (arbitrary) standard of real, it doesn't make sense.

  • 05.31.2004 2:12 PM PDT
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Posted by: Weird citizen
Obbi that sounds a lot like Plato (probably intently), although the "not created by god"-part is of course yours. I personally don't believe in much what Plato said because of the necessity of a god-like force. However, what you've said gives a good retort to plato's theory.

(please correct me if I'm very very wrong...)




I've never read plato, so I cannot say. I've only read some analogies by him, and I don't understand the man very well. :/

  • 05.31.2004 2:14 PM PDT
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I am having more of a hard time putting it together rather than understanding it. My fault I worded my first statement wrong.

  • 05.31.2004 2:16 PM PDT
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Posted by: ObbiQuiet
Posted by: Weird citizen
Obbi that sounds a lot like Plato (probably intently), although the "not created by god"-part is of course yours. I personally don't believe in much what Plato said because of the necessity of a god-like force. However, what you've said gives a good retort to plato's theory.

(please correct me if I'm very very wrong...)




I've never read plato, so I cannot say. I've only read some analogies by him, and I don't understand the man very well. :/


If you haven't read Plato, don't worry neither have I, It was just in my philosophy course last semester :) And seeing how you haven't read Plato and yet still have managed to create a similar, but in many ways, very different theory, just proves you're a smart young lady.
*looks around to see if anyone misinterpretated that as sucking up*

  • 05.31.2004 2:19 PM PDT
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I'm not sure what standard of fundamental is being used. Everything's subjective. What's fundamental to me might be the most basic units into which I can break down my reality, by whatever standards I feel most important. I guess that might be the ultimate axioms I have to adopt to create any kind of theory, interpretation, reality, whatever. That would be that I'm somehow processing information(whether it's "part of me" or not being a matter of arbitrary difinition) and interpreting it. I can't even be sure that the part of me that writes this (or thinks it's writing this...) is all there is to "me". The only substance I'm sure I have is information, the most elemental building block of reality that I can imagine.

  • 05.31.2004 2:19 PM PDT