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  • Subject: *contrast* The MAIN point for groups
Subject: *contrast* The MAIN point for groups
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"Inside every cynical person is a disappointed idealist."
George Carlin

Out of all the reasons groups were taken' down to be remodeled, the main reason was always to spark more influence and activity within them. Make them more interesting, more fun so people would come and actualy use them. I understand Achronos' logic in all of his latest responses, however, it seems like the webteam's plan backfired. The old groups were way more... addicting... customizable... fun... whatever. It just seems that they did the opposite of what their plans were. Speculation?

[Edited on 05.03.2007 11:27 PM PDT]

  • 05.03.2007 11:26 PM PDT

-Avatar-

I work for the Department of Defense.

I actually might be in a group now, and i never was before. Its just funny how everyone complains about something when its gone, and they they have the nerve to complain when its back.

If anyone refuses to refer to the chapters for any reason about the new layout then he/she has issues. You don't HAVE to be here, there are many many forms out there, hell, its damn easy to make your own. so why do people insist on acting like they should decide what should be in this one?

  • 05.03.2007 11:40 PM PDT
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"Inside every cynical person is a disappointed idealist."
George Carlin

I'm not necesarily complaining the way you seem to think I am. I am merely giving positive feedback. I am not flaming or cursing anyone. I too use groups right now, I just don't think that the original plan was a success.

  • 05.03.2007 11:50 PM PDT

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I work for the Department of Defense.

My reply was broad. Also, when i don't quote someone, it usually means my reply was not aimed at them.

I don't think you or I know their "original plan". I think it was to simply update the groups. And they have.

  • 05.04.2007 1:04 AM PDT
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"Inside every cynical person is a disappointed idealist."
George Carlin

Posted by: Darkm0d
I don't think you or I know their "original plan". I think it was to simply update the groups. And they have.

Actualy, they sort of told us in about two or so news anouncements and in the little notification thing when you clicked on the 7th Collumn link under Community.

  • 05.04.2007 1:26 AM PDT
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I think the revamping of the groups just took up more time than they were hoping for. So rather waiting for all the new features could be implemented, they just returned the groups now, rather than letting us wait for it for another half a year/year/days/whatever. So that we at least had something, while the new features can be worked upon when the team has time for it.

  • 05.04.2007 2:12 AM PDT
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"Inside every cynical person is a disappointed idealist."
George Carlin

Posted by: just another fan
I think the revamping of the groups just took up more time than they were hoping for. So rather waiting for all the new features could be implemented, they just returned the groups now, rather than letting us wait for it for another half a year/year/days/whatever. So that we at least had something, while the new features can be worked upon when the team has time for it.

Yeah that's what I was thinking. They didn't think it would so hard, so they hoped for the best. That's quite understandable.

  • 05.04.2007 2:39 AM PDT
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Posted by: just another fan
I think the revamping of the groups just took up more time than they were hoping for. So rather waiting for all the new features could be implemented, they just returned the groups now, rather than letting us wait for it for another half a year/year/days/whatever. So that we at least had something, while the new features can be worked upon when the team has time for it.


I agree. Quite frankly, I don't think groups are a high priority for Achronos and he doesn't have much time to update them. Maybe after Halo 3 is released, he will have more time to deal with them. New features will probably be released gradually. Is there anyone else at Bungie knowledgable enough about the code to improve groups? Unless there is, then I don't think much will happen in the short term. At least we got them back and they are still around.

  • 05.04.2007 3:14 AM PDT

Tom Achronos
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"I have no words that would do justice to the atrocities you commit to the English language, as well as your continued assaults on the concepts of basic literacy and logical reasoning."

The problem with groups is that they have no purpose. They used to have a purpose, but that purpose went away when Halo 2 went online. Now, they just are a way to have your own forums.

It is extremely hard to justify significant development time on them when as of this morning, only 5.68% of all active users here actually are even a member of a group (no, that isn't a made up number). We have only two web devs here, and quite frankly, we have way more features to work on that we have time to do them. And Halo 3 features are way more "bang for your buck" than groups.

Now, that brings up one possible solution - groups need a Halo 3 related "hook". We have a couple of ideas. But until they materialize, we simply cannot justify lots of work on the groups. And as we didn't want to keep them offline until post-Halo 3, you got what you got. In the meantime, you guys need to use groups - it because much easier to justify them if more of you use them.

Posted by: natedogr
I agree. Quite frankly, I don't think groups are a high priority for Achronos and he doesn't have much time to update them. Maybe after Halo 3 is released, he will have more time to deal with them. New features will probably be released gradually. Is there anyone else at Bungie knowledgable enough about the code to improve groups? Unless there is, then I don't think much will happen in the short term. At least we got them back and they are still around.

  • 05.04.2007 10:56 AM PDT
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Well, as one of the few people who come here only for the group forum and content, I have to say I am very pleased that they are back up, even if there are no new groundbreaking features. The purpose of the original chapters used to be gathering people for LAN-parties I assume, but as you said that went away with Halo 2. With these new groups the purpose (of each group) seems individually focused on rather the people running it, instead of a common goal (there's exceptions, I know that). Because of this I believe the groups have had a downfall in activity because those groups doesn't seem to be contributing with exciting content.

You say that they have no purpose, which I agree. The few groups that actually have a purpose doesn't seem to be the most active either. As far as I've understood they are either gathering grounds for like minded or places for spesific purposes (like the Myth Jumpers that organize Myth matches). As I said, it seems to be that individuals use the groups for their own place to have their friends (or fans) seeing the stories or other contributions from this user. Sometimes there's more then one person, but I hope you understand my point. Examples of this is the famous Marty's Army, or the other fan groups of the various moderators/employees of Bungie.net. It may be a while ago since I actively joined and participated in groups, I'm only in a handfull now, but I believe that was the case back then and still is. Now, this may seem like a negative and useless way to have a group, but this is how I believe you can make groups useful again.

Marty's Army has a lot of members and quite some activity even though it's simply Martys own personal space for rants, stories and similar. The news system is used to post stories or news about and from Marty, which the members there enjoy. The whole group is based around Marty, and no one has a problem with that. This is what I suggest you could do with the groups, turn them into personal spaces for the user.

I'm not suggesting Bungie.net should be the new Myspace, as there's no way image uploads or personal information should be allowed on the site. However, if you switch around and some some parts that are already built into Bungie.net you could still make it very personal. What I'm suggesting would require a bit of work, but would only use information that's already here on B.net (to some degree, I'm after all not a web designer and doesn't have the technical knowledge to say exactly how to pull this off). The main page could be made personal with having the group name and info being replace by the persons forum name and gamertag. Avatar, and/or gamecard/Halo MP info could be on the main display along with the basic information that we have in our profiles (location, homepage, email, etc). Perhaps game stats for the user could be displayed, as number of games played and such. In addition there would also be the usual group content (forum, FAQ, articles, etc).

I realize my suggestion is simply mixing the groups and public profile, with the Myspace/Wordpress Blog twist, but if you make it excluded from the groups so there's no limit in how many you can join (or make it so guests can posts as an optional choice) it would have a lot more use. Maybe it's too difficult or time consuming to do, but it's something I believe would make it more used. It's only suggestion though, only a suggestion.

*Simen retreats back to his grouphole now.

Posted by: Achronos
The problem with groups is that they have no purpose. They used to have a purpose, but that purpose went away when Halo 2 went online. Now, they just are a way to have your own forums.

It is extremely hard to justify significant development time on them when as of this morning, only 5.68% of all active users here actually are even a member of a group (no, that isn't a made up number). We have only two web devs here, and quite frankly, we have way more features to work on that we have time to do them. And Halo 3 features are way more "bang for your buck" than groups.

  • 05.04.2007 11:44 AM PDT
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Posted by: Achronos
The problem with groups is that they have no purpose. They used to have a purpose, but that purpose went away when Halo 2 went online. Now, they just are a way to have your own forums.

It is extremely hard to justify significant development time on them when as of this morning, only 5.68% of all active users here actually are even a member of a group (no, that isn't a made up number). We have only two web devs here, and quite frankly, we have way more features to work on that we have time to do them. And Halo 3 features are way more "bang for your buck" than groups.

Now, that brings up one possible solution - groups need a Halo 3 related "hook". We have a couple of ideas. But until they materialize, we simply cannot justify lots of work on the groups. And as we didn't want to keep them offline until post-Halo 3, you got what you got. In the meantime, you guys need to use groups - it because much easier to justify them if more of you use them.

Posted by: natedogr
I agree. Quite frankly, I don't think groups are a high priority for Achronos and he doesn't have much time to update them. Maybe after Halo 3 is released, he will have more time to deal with them. New features will probably be released gradually. Is there anyone else at Bungie knowledgable enough about the code to improve groups? Unless there is, then I don't think much will happen in the short term. At least we got them back and they are still around.


Thank you for the response. I am thankful that we have them, and I can't wait to see some user-created themes.

  • 05.05.2007 5:27 AM PDT
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Posted by: Achronos
It is extremely hard to justify significant development time on them when as of this morning, only 5.68% of all active users here actually are even a member of a group (no, that isn't a made up number). We have only two web devs here, and quite frankly, we have way more features to work on that we have time to do them. And Halo 3 features are way more "bang for your buck" than groups.


Not even 6%? Bloody hell. Still, what percentage of site traffic is chapter related?

  • 05.05.2007 6:11 AM PDT
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Posted by: Sir Fragula
Posted by: Achronos
It is extremely hard to justify significant development time on them when as of this morning, only 5.68% of all active users here actually are even a member of a group (no, that isn't a made up number). We have only two web devs here, and quite frankly, we have way more features to work on that we have time to do them. And Halo 3 features are way more "bang for your buck" than groups.


Not even 6%? Bloody hell. Still, what percentage of site traffic is chapter related?


That is a good question. How active are the private group members compared to the rest of the N.net population?

  • 05.05.2007 7:35 AM PDT
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Posted by: natedogr
Posted by: Sir Fragula
Posted by: Achronos
It is extremely hard to justify significant development time on them when as of this morning, only 5.68% of all active users here actually are even a member of a group (no, that isn't a made up number). We have only two web devs here, and quite frankly, we have way more features to work on that we have time to do them. And Halo 3 features are way more "bang for your buck" than groups.


Not even 6%? Bloody hell. Still, what percentage of site traffic is chapter related?


That is a good question. How active are the private group members compared to the rest of the N.net population?


I have to (or at least want to) think that group members are the most active posters. There is just too little on the forums to compare to the 22 some odd groups a user can be in.

  • 05.05.2007 11:11 AM PDT
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Posted by: impurity
I'm on the same page as Simen. That's also because I'm in the same set of...peers...as him. We've both seen a lot of the Column and have a pretty good amount of love for the groups. I tend to sway a bit more toward the main forums but I would be really upset if the chapters were to totally vanish. That said, I was a bit upset when I was finally able to find time to check up on the Kuniklo Project. The entire basis for the group was to decide whether or not to keep the group system. That's an insane way to make a choice like that so I'm surprised groups are even here based off the interaction in the forum there. It was nothing but ass kissing, randomness, and bad jokes. BAD jokes.

But that's what I love about the side of the community that I do hang around. I love semi-stalking employees through groups just to read a random post or news piece that's private to that group. I love having jerks want to joke around with me for what crap fame status my year as moderator got me. I like having on-topic places to discuss certain things I like. I like having off-topic places to dump all the garbage my spam-infested brain can muster. I like even the elitism that some groups have that are built soley as a place to keep names together (even if they don't interact). I love that fact that anyone has a place to talk about whatever they'd like.

If groups were to go away, this site would lose that touch of personality that others lack. Not only would the small groups for Bungie employees be a part of the loss; what little cohesion is left between normal members in any group would disappear. The main forums would become a plague of individuals all shouting over each other with no place to hide. I couldn't see why newer members would bother messaging anyone other than maybe setting up a game on XBL.

Honestly, I know there is no practical reason for groups anymore but that's what makes them awesome. The few users that do decide to band together in a group here and there get a unique experience that kicks ass. I don't even know what I'm saying anymore. I'm all sentimental and upset now. I'll go cry myself up a cigarette or something.


Impy said it for me.

  • 05.05.2007 8:31 PM PDT
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I've just recently come out of the hole I had dug in groups to come to the forums(mainly cause I haven't been on B.net in months and the ones I was in died). And I have to say, the forums are more active than groups, but most of those active in forums are also in groups. Which adds to the point that group goers are some of the most active members of B.net.

Oh and 5.35% my butt, unless theres 100,000 members or more in B.net(if there is a quarter of them alts) the 2000 something members in MBt speak wonders, not to mention the 1600 in PF and the thousands in other small groups(although I don't know how many groups there are) is something isn't it?

I am however dissapointed with the outcome of the groups, they suck now, but I am glad there back, and am looking forward to the improvements that will be made.

  • 05.05.2007 8:47 PM PDT
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Following on from Impurity; I would imagine that Bungie feels the role of chapters has been made almost redundant with the advent of Live and clan support... which I don't really agree with. My clan/friends chapter has been going for years and the reason for that is that we're all rarely in the same town for any length of time, and we're rarely all online at any non-specified time. The chapters here have helped keep us all in touch and enabled us to organise dedicated evenings for Halo - and indeed many other games.

I really think that with a bit more "publicity" you'd have more chapters being made by people new to the system. Actually here's an idea: chapter access from Halo 3 via Xbox Live?

  • 05.06.2007 4:02 AM PDT
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Chapter Lists.

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  • 05.06.2007 6:01 AM PDT
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Posted by: R3nd0m gU9
Oh and 5.35% my butt, unless theres 100,000 members or more in B.net(if there is a quarter of them alts) the 2000 something members in MBt speak wonders, not to mention the 1600 in PF and the thousands in other small groups(although I don't know how many groups there are) is something isn't it?

The probplem gU9, is that the 2000 MBT members constitute only 2% of 100,000 and the 1600 PF members constitute only 1.6%. Many, if not most, of the members of those groups are alt accounts created to keep up group membership. Moreover, some people (example: me) are members of both of those groups. So the 2000 MBT and 1600 PF members are certainly not active, unique users.

But on another subject, to everybody who reads this thread: as Achronos said, you should be sure to use the groups in order to justify them. You don't have to go out and join the maximum number of groups or anything, but find a couple that you like and stay a little bit active in them. As Achronos said, time spent on groups is a lot easier to justify when lots of people use them.

  • 05.06.2007 8:01 AM PDT

There still hasn't been a news item about groups being back up. That would help. Also, Clans and Clan Matchmaking need to come back for Halo 3, that would make groups a lot more useful as well.

  • 05.06.2007 10:13 AM PDT

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Posted by: Achronos
The problem with groups is that they have no purpose. They used to have a purpose, but that purpose went away when Halo 2 went online. Now, they just are a way to have your own forums.

It is extremely hard to justify significant development time on them when as of this morning, only 5.68% of all active users here actually are even a member of a group (no, that isn't a made up number). We have only two web devs here, and quite frankly, we have way more features to work on that we have time to do them. And Halo 3 features are way more "bang for your buck" than groups.

Now, that brings up one possible solution - groups need a Halo 3 related "hook". We have a couple of ideas. But until they materialize, we simply cannot justify lots of work on the groups. And as we didn't want to keep them offline until post-Halo 3, you got what you got. In the meantime, you guys need to use groups - it because much easier to justify them if more of you use them.

Posted by: natedogr
I agree. Quite frankly, I don't think groups are a high priority for Achronos and he doesn't have much time to update them. Maybe after Halo 3 is released, he will have more time to deal with them. New features will probably be released gradually. Is there anyone else at Bungie knowledgable enough about the code to improve groups? Unless there is, then I don't think much will happen in the short term. At least we got them back and they are still around.

Anchronos, you need to take that figure/statistic with a grain of salt and put it into context. I would expect you to know that.

What percent of the site even posts on the main forums anymore? What percent of the members on bungie.net have even posted on the main forums at all? I'm sure that any number saying that 5.68% of the site using groups is a very deceiving statistic, because a very small percentage of the site even visits the bungie.net community at all. How many of the bungie.net members made accounts during notable events (Release of halo 2, announcement of halo 3, etc.), made a couple posts over the span of a couple days, and were never seen again? How many of the bungie.net members have even remained active for an extended period of time?

While only a small percentage of this site uses groups, a good fraction of the older and more active members do. Many of the most active members on bungie.net don't even post in the main forums, but rather make their homes in the seventh column. I sweep the forums daily as I recruit for my group, and I often check the profiles of all of the posters that I notice in the forums. I've noticed that at least half of the regular posters are in one or more chapters.

Heck, look at what this site was like in the sort of inter-regnum when groups were off-line. There seemed to be posts being made by the day which complained about groups being gone, and it became quite obvious that many of the posters who usually hid in their beloved chapters were now posting in the forums instead.

I think that groups are the one thing that sets bungie.net apart from other gaming sites, and I know that I'm not alone. Many of the most active members on this site would probably leave it if the chapters were gone, and I don't think that we should be forgotten.

Do groups have a purpose? Let me ask you this, do the bungie.net forums (The Septagon, The Underground, The Flood, etc.) have any purpose, either?

  • 05.06.2007 10:24 PM PDT
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Wow, lots of long post. I'd do the same, but I think I'll just skip to the bottom line to save you some time.

Bottom line (of my post) is:

Public forums have no standards for members joining, whereas group can choose who can, and can't post. So we can post with our friends, and not total retards that want to spam forums.

  • 05.07.2007 8:25 AM PDT