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Subject: Ragdoll physics in halo 2?
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The havok engine runs HL2
um, no. The havok engine does not 'run' HL2, the Source engine does. Ragdoll physics and the Havok physics system are not one and the same thing. If you think Havok runs HL2, you need to have another look at the trailers.

The havok system is an overused gimmick, brilliant when it first came out, but in my opinion, limited and gimicky. It was a nice 'preview' of the future of gaming. The Havok engine did not have any significant impact on gameplay, it was primarily superficial. The HL2 source engine changes this.

Halo2 uses its own physics engine, that combines animations with the environment, which works much better than Havok in my opinion. Halo1 hinted at this, but was a 'mock' physics system,did the job though.

Of course HL2 is the most advanced and promising of the physics system, integrating physics with the gameplay to an extent that hasn't yet been seen in gaming.

[Edited on 5/29/2004 5:33:17 AM]

  • 05.29.2004 5:31 AM PDT
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i think that there will be some at least decent regdoll effects. just look at the 3d screenie. the guy who has his shields still flashing off is doing some kinda wierd jig in the air. like he's break dancing.

another question: how is that even though the elite swung right, the guy in his back fright has hit the ground first, but the first person he hit hasn't even fallen to the ground yet?

  • 05.29.2004 5:42 AM PDT
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Try looking at the new "Three Dimensional" screenshot. I'm sure this proves something.

  • 05.29.2004 5:47 AM PDT
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I thought that their where physics in terms of warthog flipping, grenade explosions? When you think about it, when a enemy would land on a ledge their limbs dangle off accordingly. Halo has a pseudo-ragdoll physics engine imo.

[Edited on 5/29/2004 6:01:02 AM]

  • 05.29.2004 5:59 AM PDT
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yeah, their arms and things would hang off of it, but if you've ever seen a guys head "hanging" off of a rock then it's scary. All it did was just stretch the limb further down, to make it look like it was hanging.
I don't think I see true ragdoll physics in halo 2 either. It would just seem out of place. Though it would be cool to see it, I would rather have more cool death animations rather than ragdoll for halo 2. It does seem more "stylish"

  • 05.29.2004 6:04 AM PDT
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I mean some ragdoll pysics would be good but not bouncing for 20 minutes in the air or there legs and torso be in the opposite direction or the neck be twisted around 360 degrees,but it would be cool for it to show him blow apart in midair by a rocket red or blue blood spewing all over the opponents armour.

  • 05.29.2004 7:26 AM PDT
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i never tire of just empting a whole clip into a guy in hitman 2, and watching him slide across the floor...

  • 05.29.2004 8:40 AM PDT
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I hope they put ragdoll physics in. Because it was pretty stupid in halo 1, when you blew a dead corpse up and it would fly through the air flailing it's arms like it was alive and then it would roll in a set position, and sink wierdly.

  • 05.29.2004 5:23 PM PDT
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the havok system is utterly insane... any of you play that Psi Ops practice room on the newest OXM disc? those physics are amazing!

but it looks like halo has a decent system in now. in the e3 2k4 demo, (after the lunge attack) "wort" slides and rolls a bit on the ground....

I wonder how well the havok system works for vehicle physics... I dont think there are any games that utilize that, can you guys think of any?

  • 05.29.2004 5:27 PM PDT
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Heh. I'm kind of half-and-half on the situation. Halo 2 doesn't need ragdoll to be good, it'll be just as good either way. Hell, plenty of games are using ragdoll now, which is good, but I don't see it wrong if Bungie wants to step away. In fact, when I first saw the arms flailing in Halo 1 I snickered, because it was original.

Now, don't get me wrong. Physics are an extremely fun thing to experiment with in any game, but leave that to games like HL² to make amazing gameplay out of it. Although, of all the things out there I don't think ragdoll is even the most important--it's great, sure, but why not focus on physics for things that need it?

Again, Halo 2 will rock either way. Leave it to Bungie to do the right thing. :)

[Edited on 5/29/2004 5:44:09 PM]

  • 05.29.2004 5:33 PM PDT
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Halo had a quasi-ragdoll physics IMHO. The only problem was in how the...um...corpses settled. They would be hanging three fourths of the way off a ledge, or stuck to a ninety degree inclined surface. Once I even saw a grunt corpse hanging off a shelf in the mess hall on The Pillar of Autumn. His legs were on the shelf and his arms touching the ground like he was still holding himself up in "push-up" position.

  • 05.29.2004 5:58 PM PDT
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Ragdoll physics are sweet, but i can't see em in halo 2. All i ask is for more scripted death animations. : )

  • 05.30.2004 6:05 AM PDT
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Yeah, I'm fine with the scripted death animations as long as there are enough of them. Ragdoll physics in some games are pretty cool, but they always felt kind of unrealistic to me, the way the bodies flop around so much, the weird positions of dead bodies,etc. I just can't imagine Halo 2 being like that. Not to mention it would be a pain in the ass to implement ragdoll physics for all the aliens in Halo 2 and make it look right.

  • 05.30.2004 6:19 AM PDT
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I really dont mind if they have it or not, but they better have per-pixel collision detection (or however you say it) in halo2, its just unrealistic to have a rocket fly inbetween your legs and still blow up!

(imagine playing halo2, some guy launces a rocket at you, you dont see it or hear it untill it flys between your legs and blows up the warthog you were running towards!)

  • 05.30.2004 6:56 AM PDT
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well, how can i put this as delicately as possible? oh yes, ragdoll physics suck massive, massive balls. huge, hairy, sweaty ones too. i've been playing thief: 3 for the last week, and while i enjoy it a whole lot, i can't help but feel that the ragdoll physics detract from the game. i mean you're sneaking around, stalking your quarry. you approach it and club the back of its head like a baby seal. you watch in horror as the thing you just knocked into unconsciousness is bent over completely backwards into the letter 'o'. and it happens regularly and predictably. i'm no expert, and maybe the engine for thief: 3 is just not up to snuff, but it's been the same in every game i've played with it. i'd much rather not to have to say the same for halo2. what's so great about ragdoll physics anyways? in a nut shell, it's funny. while halo was at times a funny game, i don't think the inclusion of ragdoll physics would do anything for it. it would be like some pitiful sideshow freak trying to get into the spotlight at the cirque du soleil.

  • 06.01.2004 8:24 AM PDT
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it would be badass... like on Half Life 2 (poor valve) you can use that gravity gun thing to pick up guys and fling em around.. that was some cool ragdoll physics. i hope halo 2 is like that.. grenades will blow bodys all over and they land realistically.

dude.. i know how they do ragdoll physics.... they were just stupid and didnt put a limit to the flexibility of the back joint... they can fix that in halo 2 it is simple.

I do admit to laughing in Rainbow 6 3 when a guy was hanging by his toes tho


[Edited on 6/1/2004 8:32:01 AM]

  • 06.01.2004 8:29 AM PDT
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Posted by: Septorzero
dude.. i know how they do ragdoll physics.... they were just stupid and didnt put a limit to the flexibility of the back joint... they can fix that in halo 2 it is simple.

ok, but even if they were to fix the flexibility limits on the back, it still wouldn't prevent things from dropping into bizarre yoga positions. and if they fixed all of the joint flexibility limitations, then well, what would be the point of having ragdoll physics at all?

  • 06.01.2004 8:42 AM PDT
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I'm all for ragdoll physics. Aside from being very entertaining (why I'm semi-addicted to the psi-ops demo), ragdoll also adds a sense of realism. While I'm sure Halo2 will have a little bit of it while characters alive, the new wallpaper 'WortWortWortHog' makes it clear that the possibility for ragdoll physics to be implemented on dead bodies is slim to none. You can see for yourself, most of the dead Spartans are going through each other.

I think Halo2 will be just fine without it, but I still think such a physics system would only improve the game.

[Edited on 6/1/2004 8:53:19 AM]

  • 06.01.2004 8:50 AM PDT
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I think many gamers miss the point with Havoks engine...

If for example you compare the falling/death animations etc in Half-Life 2 that seem to be primarily based on the Havok engine, with similar animations in Halo 1 or 2, i think it is visually clear that Halo's characters, fly through the air, fall and die etc with more dynamic motions and generally look better.

The poll is a little too vague i think...

The physics for objects and vehicles etc would look great using havok, but i think whatever Bungie have used used is easily as good, so the poll really doesnt matter.

Also at the moment i still prefere Bungies take on character physics and flying/falling/death animations etc, so i suppose it comes down to this:

Do you want an engine that seems to have everything calculated for you, but sometimes looks a bit silly because it doesnt consider what actually would look cinematic (RAGDOLL says it all really)...or do you want a little bit of a physics engine mixed with hand animations like are in Halo (i think)?

I will stick wi Halo cheers...I just hope the staff dont look directly at the poll results and change their games based on that, because the poll is very misleading and whoever started it obviously wasnt takin that into concideration...They just assumed it had to be better because everyone else was using it, and it is the 'IN' thing.

No Offense intended.

  • 06.01.2004 9:05 AM PDT
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As long as it's better than the stuff in Rainbow Six 3, I'll be happy. RS 3 was stupid it was rag doll but it was so unrealistic!!!!! Halo was great how it was, with a few tweaks it'll be perfect!

  • 06.01.2004 11:04 AM PDT

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