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Subject: On the apparent lack of "balance" in Halo CE weapons
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Posted by: Deno458
Posted by: RL King
Posted by: Deno458
Posted by: RL King
6 weapons, 2 for each category, you need more weapons, otherwise, it gets boring

You'll have you're balance, but the game would be so boring


they are saying what it would be like in a perfectly balanced game. Try reading stuff before you post about it.


Excuse me, but I was addressing Llama's idea of having only three weapons to balance out the game, one for long, medium, and close range. I agree with his idea, but I said that there should be 2 weapons for each group to prevent the game from getting boring, try understanding what someone is saying before you contradict them


or, YOU could always read more than one part. He is saying that for complete balance, you would only have 3 weapons, and that it would be boring that way.


Wow, you really don't understand do you? Yeah, he means only 3 weapons, but it would get boring, so I put in that if that was the case, have 6 weapons, 2 for each category.

[Edited on 05.28.2007 8:09 AM PDT]

  • 05.28.2007 8:08 AM PDT

Posted by: Tid3_w_b134ch
I guess I'm confused by what "balance" actually means in the world of Halo. Spawning on Valhalla with an AR versus a sniper is my personal definition of imbalance. Conversely, spawning on Blood Gulch with the CE pistol versus a sniper is a thousand times more likely to result in a less disadvantageous battle. I'm not saying that the pistol will beat the sniper, but on average, the pistol will lose to the sniper considerably less than the AR would. In the H3 beta your time is better spent running to the nearest BR spawn, while in CE you would be better off fighting the sniper with your pistol. Which sounds more fun to you?


you have made this forum very confusing, while also bringing up a good point. let me try to clear things up a bit.

there's the classic definition of balance, which is what developers generally try to do in order to make sure 1 weapon doesn't dominate the game.

and then there's your personal definition of balance, which is what generally happens when you ignore classic balance, and you are more concerned with creating a good spawn weapon that is effective in all situations.

so a nasty spawn weapon is balanced in one sense, and imbalanced in the other. to be more precise...

good spawn weapon = classically imbalanced bc you have a weapon versatile enough in all scenerios

and

good spawn weapon = balanced in your eyes because it evens out playing surface when you spawn. some will argue that that this makes the game less challenging. i reject that premise, as i believe a powerful spawn weapon will keep power in the hands of the skilled.

*from now on, we should call your new approach to balance "spawn balance".

just throwing this out there: what happens to gameplay when we are more concerned with "spawn balance" than "weapons balance"?


[Edited on 05.28.2007 10:36 AM PDT]

  • 05.28.2007 10:32 AM PDT
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i greatly agree that halo games are now focusing to much on balence. Like u said, halo 1 didnt have all that, and yet....the game is a legend. its like what FPS's were ment to be. But of course, if anyone makes a sequel, it will have new things (new guns as well). This means that no matter how hard we try to see new halo games based on our deffinetion on halo 1, we cant. all new games must have somthing new, or its not a new game, so the "inbalence" will be disrubted.

to sum it up, halo 1 was to good, and bungie is doing good with halo 3, but i dont think they can beat the incredible experiance they already created in the first halo.

  • 05.28.2007 12:30 PM PDT

"Do you think it's because we're awesome? I think it's because we're awesome."

"Man, you're camping my only spawn point? Who made this "Infection" gametype? I'm like a fricken ant someone threw into a spider farm! Except one of the spiders has a tank!"

"Wow, you really don't understand do you? Yeah, he means only 3 weapons, but it would get boring, so I put in that if that was the case, have 6 weapons, 2 for each category."

fine, I'll shut up.

" i greatly agree that halo games are now focusing to much on balence. Like u said, halo 1 didnt have all that, and yet....the game is a legend. its like what FPS's were ment to be. But of course, if anyone makes a sequel, it will have new things (new guns as well). This means that no matter how hard we try to see new halo games based on our deffinetion on halo 1, we cant. all new games must have somthing new, or its not a new game, so the "inbalence" will be disrubted.

to sum it up, halo 1 was to good, and bungie is doing good with halo 3, but i dont think they can beat the incredible experiance they already created in the first halo."

you know what an AWESOME fps was? perfect dark (no not zero, Perfect Dark 64) If someone just updated the exact same game with better graphics and stuff, it would rule over halo. Or maybe if they combined PD, halo(s), and dead rising. that would pwn.

[Edited on 05.28.2007 1:37 PM PDT]

  • 05.28.2007 1:29 PM PDT
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Spawn balance creates a much better gaming experience than weapon balance. Who would rather spend their time running around looking for an acceptable weapon? Give me an acceptable weapon at spawn so the battles are the number 1 objective (not hunting for a weapon) AND so the battles aren't ridiculously unfair (not sniper vs. AR).

Also, Perfect Dark for the 64 was outstanding....but not nearly as legendary as CE.

  • 05.28.2007 7:04 PM PDT

"Do you think it's because we're awesome? I think it's because we're awesome."

"Man, you're camping my only spawn point? Who made this "Infection" gametype? I'm like a fricken ant someone threw into a spider farm! Except one of the spiders has a tank!"

Posted by: Tid3_w_b134ch
Spawn balance creates a much better gaming experience than weapon balance. Who would rather spend their time running around looking for an acceptable weapon? Give me an acceptable weapon at spawn so the battles are the number 1 objective (not hunting for a weapon) AND so the battles aren't ridiculously unfair (not sniper vs. AR).

Also, Perfect Dark for the 64 was outstanding....but not nearly as legendary as CE.


sniper vs AR..... that is kind of a random choice. what if they were face to face? anyway, Perfect dark is better thatn halo in a ton of ways (in my book) bc i put into perspective how it was made in 1998, and with a graphic update, maybe a better grenade system, more vehicles, and better multiplayer maps, it would be better than halo. It was pretty realistic, too. (other than aliens and such,) things like: lights going off when you shoot them, light switches, guns flying from people's hands if you shot them....(all in campaign of course.) but this is a little off topic. Each weapon should have as many pros as there are cons. (in my opinion)

  • 05.28.2007 9:40 PM PDT
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what i find funny is that alot of people (including bungie) figure that the solution to balanced gameplay is make a ton of weapons, have most of them be pretty much usless and have a few that are decent, not super good, but decent. this way is probably the most imbalanced way. i know alot of people will disagree, because they love their precious halo 2, but bungie got everything right with Halo: CE. that's how all FPS should be made. there was a good amount of weapons to choose from, and all weapons were useful in their own ways. there was only one gun in the game that was useless and that was the needler. every other gun was very good in their own ways. in halo 2, about 70% of the guns were useless. is that really more balanced? not even close. all FPS need a weapon like the pistol. it gives you a good defense for any situation. so if you were good enough you could kill the rocket or shotgun person up close or the sniper person sniping you from far away. Halo: CE was actually very well balanced. everyone spawned with the best overall weapon. and had other useful weapons to choose from if they come across them. in halo 2, you spawned with the worst weapon and have very few useful weapons to choose from. so pretty much it's whoever can get that useful weapon first will control the game. Halo 2 was horribly imbalanced.

  • 05.29.2007 1:53 PM PDT

"Do you think it's because we're awesome? I think it's because we're awesome."

"Man, you're camping my only spawn point? Who made this "Infection" gametype? I'm like a fricken ant someone threw into a spider farm! Except one of the spiders has a tank!"

Posted by: Zachamarius
what i find funny is that alot of people (including bungie) figure that the solution to balanced gameplay is make a ton of weapons, have most of them be pretty much usless and have a few that are decent, not super good, but decent. this way is probably the most imbalanced way. i know alot of people will disagree, because they love their precious halo 2, but bungie got everything right with Halo: CE. that's how all FPS should be made. there was a good amount of weapons to choose from, and all weapons were useful in their own ways. there was only one gun in the game that was useless and that was the needler. every other gun was very good in their own ways. in halo 2, about 70% of the guns were useless. is that really more balanced? not even close. all FPS need a weapon like the pistol. it gives you a good defense for any situation. so if you were good enough you could kill the rocket or shotgun person up close or the sniper person sniping you from far away. Halo: CE was actually very well balanced. everyone spawned with the best overall weapon. and had other useful weapons to choose from if they come across them. in halo 2, you spawned with the worst weapon and have very few useful weapons to choose from. so pretty much it's whoever can get that useful weapon first will control the game. Halo 2 was horribly imbalanced.


it was balanced in spawn weapons, but having the pistol be ultimate isn't what i call balance. anyway, what do you mean the needler is useless????? it is very easy to use, and only takes one round to kill someone/thing (about one round atleast) and H2 has a purpose for each weapon, also. if you want, you can name a gun, and i will tell you it's use.

  • 05.29.2007 2:05 PM PDT

lol 1 shot kill needler? Get out of this thread, you obviously know NOTHING about Halo.

[Edited on 05.29.2007 2:16 PM PDT]

  • 05.29.2007 2:16 PM PDT
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so pretty much you are saying if you met up with a BR guy in close range you could kill him with an SMG? since all weapons in halo 2 have a purpose. the smg is a close range weapon, so it should be able to take out the mid range BR. but that is not the case. that is a perfect example of how useless most of halo 2's weapons are. those guns only have SOME use to them if they are dual weilded. otherwise they are useles guns. in halo 1 the pistol is only as good as the person using it. it takes alot of time and practice to become good at halo 1. if you say anything like " the pistol only takes 3 shots to kill, it's so easy" then i know you have absolutely no clue what you are talking about and you rarely or have never played halo 1 multiplayer. there are two words, AIM ASSIST. in halo 1 there was very very little aim assist. in halo 2 there was aim assist through the roof. so if you put the pistol in halo 2 it would probably be unstoppable, due to the high aim assist. in halo 1 it was a very difficult weapon to use because of the very very low aim assist.

  • 05.29.2007 2:34 PM PDT

"Do you think it's because we're awesome? I think it's because we're awesome."

"Man, you're camping my only spawn point? Who made this "Infection" gametype? I'm like a fricken ant someone threw into a spider farm! Except one of the spiders has a tank!"

Posted by: Sporefrizzle
lol 1 shot kill needler? Get out of this thread, you obviously know NOTHING about Halo.


one ROUND as in an entire ROUND!!!! learn to read, dumbass. maybe you ought to leave this thread until you finish your 1st grade education.

"so pretty much you are saying if you met up with a BR guy in close range you could kill him with an SMG? since all weapons in halo 2 have a purpose. the smg is a close range weapon, so it should be able to take out the mid range BR. but that is not the case. that is a perfect example of how useless most of halo 2's weapons are. those guns only have SOME use to them if they are dual weilded. otherwise they are useles guns. in halo 1 the pistol is only as good as the person using it. it takes alot of time and practice to become good at halo 1. if you say anything like " the pistol only takes 3 shots to kill, it's so easy" then i know you have absolutely no clue what you are talking about and you rarely or have never played halo 1 multiplayer. there are two words, AIM ASSIST. in halo 1 there was very very little aim assist. in halo 2 there was aim assist through the roof. so if you put the pistol in halo 2 it would probably be unstoppable, due to the high aim assist. in halo 1 it was a very difficult weapon to use because of the very very low aim assist. "

not what i meant. Each weapon has a purpose for the game (in campaign atleast) each has a specific job. you don't HAVE to use these weapons for their jobs, though. and any weapon in campaign, almost has to be in co op. what i think the SMG's job is, is taking out flood infection forms, so you don't have to waste shotgun ammo on them. it works rather well. and, i have never used a pistol and thought "Gee, this is difficult." Is it really hard for others to get good at it?

[Edited on 06.01.2007 4:35 AM PDT]

  • 05.29.2007 2:43 PM PDT

Round - a single discharge by one firearm.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/round

[Edited on 05.29.2007 3:05 PM PDT]

  • 05.29.2007 3:05 PM PDT

"Do you think it's because we're awesome? I think it's because we're awesome."

"Man, you're camping my only spawn point? Who made this "Infection" gametype? I'm like a fricken ant someone threw into a spider farm! Except one of the spiders has a tank!"

Posted by: Sporefrizzle
Round - a single discharge by one firearm.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/round


Try to comprehend this. that is talking of a single SHOT, I am talking of a round!!!! have you noticed how magnum revolvers have a round of ammunition? I am talking of: round: complete or whole, (ex. a round dozen.) seriously, youth is uneducated these days.

  • 05.29.2007 3:24 PM PDT

Are you disagreeing with the dictionary?

Round -
29. a single discharge of shot by each of a number of guns, rifles, etc.
30. a single discharge by one firearm.
31. a charge of ammunition for a single shot.

In the context that you used the word, it means a single shot. Either way you meant it, you're still wrong, the needler isn't useful.

  • 05.29.2007 3:33 PM PDT

"Do you think it's because we're awesome? I think it's because we're awesome."

"Man, you're camping my only spawn point? Who made this "Infection" gametype? I'm like a fricken ant someone threw into a spider farm! Except one of the spiders has a tank!"

Posted by: Sporefrizzle
Are you disagreeing with the dictionary?

Round -
29.a single discharge of shot by each of a number of guns, rifles, etc.
30.a single discharge by one firearm.
31.a charge of ammunition for a single shot.

In the context that you used the word, it means a single shot. Either way you meant it, you're still wrong, the needler isn't useful.



as it is in that EXACT SAME F***ING dictionary, it says round: to be whole or rounded (ex. a whole dozen) anyway, just one ROUND/CLIP/MAGAZINE(not sure if magazine is right) will most of the time kill a spartan in multiplayer, or take out and elite, jackal/jackle, or grunt. (not sure about hunter) taking out I think 1/3rd of the enemies you face in halo 1 is pretty damned good. i havent even said how well it is against the flood. If you can't use it well, that's fine, but don't say it is worthless because YOU suck with it.

  • 05.29.2007 3:37 PM PDT

To be whole or rounded is referring to something like a circle. A circle is round. The word has multiple meanings. In the context of fire arms it means, a charge of ammunition for a single shot.

I'll give you the fact that the needler was pretty good in single player. But in multiplayer it's completely worthless.

[Edited on 05.29.2007 3:40 PM PDT]

  • 05.29.2007 3:39 PM PDT

"Do you think it's because we're awesome? I think it's because we're awesome."

"Man, you're camping my only spawn point? Who made this "Infection" gametype? I'm like a fricken ant someone threw into a spider farm! Except one of the spiders has a tank!"

"To be whole or rounded is referring to something like a circle. A circle is round. The word has multiple meanings. In the context of fire arms it means, a charge of ammunition for a single shot.

I'll give you the fact that the needler was pretty good in single player. But in multiplayer it's completely worthless."

14. brought to completeness or perfection. (take out perfection, and what do you have?)
(many numbers)64.a. To complete or perfect. To finish.

and, i wasn't using it in fire arms context. once again, many people are awesome with it in multiplayer, if you just suck with it, then too bad.

  • 05.29.2007 3:45 PM PDT

I see what you meant by what you said, but anyone would think exactly what I thought if they read the same thing.

The needler is really easy to dodge. There is no skill in using it. You point and aim. If the person is not retarded, they will just strafe and not get hit at all. In all my years of XBC Halo 1 I haven't been killed by a needler once.

  • 05.29.2007 3:52 PM PDT
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whoever died from a needler in multiplayer must really suck. no matter how good someone is with the needler, you can't ever kill someone who is half way decent at dodging. the only way you can kill someone is if they run straight at you or if they just stand still. so the needler is useless in multiplayer. in campaign however, it is pretty useful. because the elites and grunts just stand still.

  • 05.29.2007 9:25 PM PDT

"Do you think it's because we're awesome? I think it's because we're awesome."

"Man, you're camping my only spawn point? Who made this "Infection" gametype? I'm like a fricken ant someone threw into a spider farm! Except one of the spiders has a tank!"

Posted by: Sporefrizzle
I see what you meant by what you said, but anyone would think exactly what I thought if they read the same thing.

The needler is really easy to dodge. There is no skill in using it. You point and aim. If the person is not retarded, they will just strafe and not get hit at all. In all my years of XBC Halo 1 I haven't been killed by a needler once.


ok, thanks, ill try not to make that mistake again. and, i guess i've only killed new players with it. I use it for close range, and melees.

"whoever died from a needler in multiplayer must really suck. no matter how good someone is with the needler, you can't ever kill someone who is half way decent at dodging. the only way you can kill someone is if they run straight at you or if they just stand still. so the needler is useless in multiplayer. in campaign however, it is pretty useful. because the elites and grunts just stand still. "

Many people just sneak up on others, bc it is an easy kill. not sure, but doesn't the needler have a better melee? and you can always use it on a sniper (while they snipe someone else. or use it to track a hog or something (until they explode, of course.)


[Edited on 05.30.2007 6:09 PM PDT]

  • 05.29.2007 10:09 PM PDT

ohn Howard, lead designer for halo: combat evolved.

he left bungie after halo 1 and is now developing shadowrun which comes out tomorrow.




[22:07] <Kimona> <Hitzel> Here's a question for John Howard:
[22:07] <Kimona> <Hitzel> Hardcore Halo players agree that the Halo 1 Pistol is the "greatest mistake" to ever grace a videogame. Is there anything in Shadowrun that wasn't used as intended that improved the game as a whole?
[22:08] <JohnHoward> The Halo 1 pistol wasn't a mistake...
[22:08] <JohnHoward> It was also intended to be the ultimate hold out weapon...
[22:09] <JohnHoward> I always believe that balance is about giving each weapon / ability / whatever it's own perfect situation.
[22:10] <JohnHoward> That said, there's always stuff that gets used as it wasn't intended...
[22:10] <JohnHoward> Using Gust to break your fall.
[22:11] <JohnHoward> Chucking an Anti-magic generator at a wall just before you teleport through it so your attacker can't follow you
[22:11] <JohnHoward> Even using Teleport as a super-jump wasn't something we thought about before we implemented it.
[22:12] <JohnHoward> The amount of cool emergent stuff in Shadowrun has been one of the most entertaining thing about working on the game.

  • 05.29.2007 11:31 PM PDT

"Do you think it's because we're awesome? I think it's because we're awesome."

"Man, you're camping my only spawn point? Who made this "Infection" gametype? I'm like a fricken ant someone threw into a spider farm! Except one of the spiders has a tank!"

Posted by: blueterroR
ohn Howard, lead designer for halo: combat evolved.

he left bungie after halo 1 and is now developing shadowrun which comes out tomorrow.




[22:07] <Kimona> <Hitzel> Here's a question for John Howard:
[22:07] <Kimona> <Hitzel> Hardcore Halo players agree that the Halo 1 Pistol is the "greatest mistake" to ever grace a videogame. Is there anything in Shadowrun that wasn't used as intended that improved the game as a whole?
[22:08] <JohnHoward> The Halo 1 pistol wasn't a mistake...
[22:08] <JohnHoward> It was also intended to be the ultimate hold out weapon...
[22:09] <JohnHoward> I always believe that balance is about giving each weapon / ability / whatever it's own perfect situation.
[22:10] <JohnHoward> That said, there's always stuff that gets used as it wasn't intended...
[22:10] <JohnHoward> Using Gust to break your fall.
[22:11] <JohnHoward> Chucking an Anti-magic generator at a wall just before you teleport through it so your attacker can't follow you
[22:11] <JohnHoward> Even using Teleport as a super-jump wasn't something we thought about before we implemented it.
[22:12] <JohnHoward> The amount of cool emergent stuff in Shadowrun has been one of the most entertaining thing about working on the game.


like i said (or atleast, what i thought i said) "you can name any gun from halo 1 or 2, and i will tell you a purpose."

  • 05.30.2007 6:17 PM PDT
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Posted by: Skillet98
I loved the Halo 1 pistol but the scope was useless IMO. It has the same range without it and I got sick of exiting the scope every time I got hit anyway.

I would like to see it in Halo 3...but they could leave the scope behind.


You're right, losing scope every time I got hit was quite annoying. But what does the scope have to do with range? A scope's job is to help with accuracy, not range.

  • 05.31.2007 7:22 AM PDT
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Posted by: ethanhatami17
Posted by: Tid3_w_b134ch
I guess I'm confused by what "balance" actually means in the world of Halo. Spawning on Valhalla with an AR versus a sniper is my personal definition of imbalance. Conversely, spawning on Blood Gulch with the CE pistol versus a sniper is a thousand times more likely to result in a less disadvantageous battle. I'm not saying that the pistol will beat the sniper, but on average, the pistol will lose to the sniper considerably less than the AR would. In the H3 beta your time is better spent running to the nearest BR spawn, while in CE you would be better off fighting the sniper with your pistol. Which sounds more fun to you?


you have made this forum very confusing, while also bringing up a good point. let me try to clear things up a bit.

there's the classic definition of balance, which is what developers generally try to do in order to make sure 1 weapon doesn't dominate the game.

and then there's your personal definition of balance, which is what generally happens when you ignore classic balance, and you are more concerned with creating a good spawn weapon that is effective in all situations.

so a nasty spawn weapon is balanced in one sense, and imbalanced in the other. to be more precise...

good spawn weapon = classically imbalanced bc you have a weapon versatile enough in all scenerios

and

good spawn weapon = balanced in your eyes because it evens out playing surface when you spawn. some will argue that that this makes the game less challenging. i reject that premise, as i believe a powerful spawn weapon will keep power in the hands of the skilled.

*from now on, we should call your new approach to balance "spawn balance".

just throwing this out there: what happens to gameplay when we are more concerned with "spawn balance" than "weapons balance"?


Lets keep it simple. How do you define balance? To me, realism is a good yardstick . In whatever year this is in, when we have an assault rifle that is not very accurate over short/medium range, what will our pistol be like? A pistol is usually a short range weapon but Halo's pistol can be used for medium range sniping!

Would've been good if the pistol could shoot medium range but not THAT accurately. I used the pistol for one-shot (sometimes two) kills throughout the game - headshots for Covenant, armshots for Flood (tip for newbies: shoot their big arm), which is very unrealistic and therefore, unbalanced.

Also, the Shotgun's accuracy range could've been a bit longer. Hell, there're Shotguns today with a longer range and we're talking about 550 years from now!

[Edited on 05.31.2007 7:57 AM PDT]

  • 05.31.2007 7:52 AM PDT

"Do you think it's because we're awesome? I think it's because we're awesome."

"Man, you're camping my only spawn point? Who made this "Infection" gametype? I'm like a fricken ant someone threw into a spider farm! Except one of the spiders has a tank!"

Posted by: avssrs
[/quote]

Lets keep it simple. How do you define balance? To me, realism is a good yardstick . In whatever year this is in, when we have an assault rifle that is not very accurate over short/medium range, what will our pistol be like? A pistol is usually a short range weapon but Halo's pistol can be used for medium range sniping!

Would've been good if the pistol could shoot medium range but not THAT accurately. I used the pistol for one-shot (sometimes two) kills throughout the game - headshots for Covenant, armshots for Flood (tip for newbies: shoot their big arm), which is very unrealistic and therefore, unbalanced.

Also, the Shotgun's accuracy range could've been a bit longer. Hell, there're Shotguns today with a longer range and we're talking about 550 years from now!


unrealism relates at all to balance?!!?!?!?! didn't know that. and, I agree. A shotgun is supposed to go far, and hit hard when it gets there.

  • 06.01.2007 4:39 AM PDT

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