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Subject: 777 and counting....

There's only one kind of metal, and it's black.

Posted by: King Picollo
Beer = win

Poll: Counting Posts by Hand Is So Yesterday  [closed]
Yes, visible post counts (as seen on the boards):  24%
(7 Votes)
Yes, invisible post counts (as seen on profiles):  21%
(6 Votes)
No post counts whatsoever:  55%
(16 Votes)
Total Votes: 29

The fabled post count has been something denied from Bungie.net users for quite some time, and it was only very recently that I began to ponder (and actually take seriously) the possibilities, consequences, and proponents of such a measure. I have left out some of the more obvious trinkets that tail along with a post count, as I am limited to 10,000 characters (roughly 1600 words);
i.e. karma systems, membership privileges, contests, etc.

The idea is actually quite simple, but only markedly so. Most internet forums, if not all, have displayable post counts. Displayed in such a way that each user—whether regular, sporadic, or barely existent—may know just how active their fellow users are. How much has Bulletproof posted in the past week. Oh look, Agent of Death just hit 1000!

What usually comes blistering through a seemingly benign "privilege" is the onslaught of negative consequences. Among them, one of the most prevalent involves the individual elitism and bigotry most common amongst the more regular members, including the "old school" members, how ever you may define such a label. Such an example follows:
User A employs his post count against User B as a means to consider himself "above" or aloof of User B. Basically, I'm better than you because I have more posts -blam!-

What usually follows are the typical "noob" comments, incessant and unjustified flaming; and ultimately thread bumping, trolling, and spamming. Most of the time, these stigmas are the direct result of some newer or less active member coming along, posting his business...but said business tends to be fraught with grammatical errors or maybe some nasty comments here and there, and as a result there's usually an older member that comes along and says Who are you? Go away! Shut up noob. etc. As a regular of the Flood forum, believe me, I've been around that circle quite a few times, but it's not a perfect one.

These consequences apply everywhere, however, not just Bungie.net. I'm a relatively active member of another—staunchly different both in subject and demeanor—forum of which the members display a level of maturity that even makes Bungie.net look like a child's fair. Mind you, most of these members, especially the higher-roled members (the admins and feelance helpers) are of age—on average, the age range is from about 18-50; a wide gap, but there are never problems of spamming, incorrigible behavior, or even elitism.

Now I know what's going through most of your heads. That statement I just made about three lines ago is glaring me in the face just as much as it is you. And as I write this very sentence, I'm trying almost fruitlessly to rebut it with something really idealistic and democratic. It's not working. Truth is, I can't give you a speech on why Bungie.net is, on average, more immature than most other forums on the internet. As a matter of self-inflicting thought, I can't even comprehend why the hell gaming-based forums—"gaming-based" meaning that the forums are located on a website centered on gaming in some form or fashion—are almost always the culprits when it comes to the overused maturity v. immaturity problem.



**Rhetorical question**
Why is it that forums about sex, health, politics, etc. are almost always more mature and less fraught with dissenters? Something to think about.



What's the first reason that popped into your head? Age? Gender base? Or is it just the forum's subject material after all? I'm not going to digress any further...

As I mentioned earlier, I'm not here to make a self-righteous speech on how we can somehow leech maturity and sense into the minds of those that do choose to participate on Bungie's forums. However, what I can do is give reasons why post count and maturity of participating members are not always dependent variables.

We all know that the "King of Immaturity" on Bungie's forums can be arbitrarily placed on one, maybe two, forums—heh, heavy lies the crown. I'm not giving my opinions on the matter; the two that any one of you choose is completely subjective and of no purpose here. After all, Bungie's forums are unified under one roof. Whether you're a regular of the Halo 2 forum, the Halo 3 forum, or the Flood, you're still a part of the collective community. As such, your actions indirectly influence others'.

Nonetheless, one cannot not justifiably claim that all must take the fall because of a few miscreants. Obviously, the job and duty of any policing state or body, in this case Bungie, is to do what's good for the interests of the overall community and the state itself. The question still looms. Is it really that big of a deal? Does a visible post count by the entire community really hinder the efforts of Bungie's forums as a peaceful and affable center of communication, amongst its many members? Does the spam really increase that much? Do the flames really become hotter? Is the dissent really that much different than it already is? Would you see scores, hell, hordes of new members being taunted and ridiculed for their measly ten posts as compared to Big Ben's 10,000? I think not. Sadly, I don't have the tools nor the statistical methods at my disposal to give good supportive evidence. It's a shame.



Let's assume the brighter side of a visible post count, how ever minor and trivial it may seem...First of all, seniority. "Older" or more regular members like it when others know they've been at a certain forum, discussing God knows what, for a relatively longer period or amount of time; whether this be elucidated through post count or member date, it's no matter. It seems nerdy, of course. However, think of it in a more realistic sense. Consider ranks: the armed forces, job occupancies, domestic duties and relations, political and state positions, religious positions, sports, games, old people...the list goes on. Every human being loves accomplishment. It gives a sense of being, no matter how ridiculous or geeky it seems. A common sport, such as footbal for example, is typically revered by most men. It's just a game right? Then why do the best players—among them the veterans and higher "ranks," if you will—get the most notability? are gambled on the most? get their jerseys worn all across the world?

Secondly, but less significant, we have reference. When a new member comes along, he usually has questions. Some of those questions are rather general and can easily be answered by almost anyone. Some, however, far fewer people can answer for the troubled greenhorn. Let me go ahead and lay this fact out right now: High post count does not correlate to experience or knowledge in these sorts of matters. Nonetheless, what do you think is the very first thing that a new poster—or perhaps a regular that has decided to come back into activity after living under a rock for the past half a year, for his own reasons—recognizes when it comes to Halp me i need help wit this how do i...?

As an antecedent to this minor part of the bright side, we can easily see what is possibly the most important outcome of visible post count. This outcome can be summarized in one word. If you were thinking reputation, then you're on the same page as I. Recognition need not be attained through post count alone, don't get me wrong. Merit should be the sole reason for recognition on the forums. Before you get ahead of me, let me just as easily lay out this little known fact: Recognition does not entail reputation. Notice how the "reputation" aspect easily fits in with "seniority." I debated the idea of reputation v. recognition rather glibly with a fellow friend on the forums. It is through him that I came to this understanding. It really is common sense. Of course, the aspect of recognition can easily rear its own ugly problems. One-liners or rushed posts, unvaluable pieces of trash that frequently pollute every forum, will definitely become a new problem as members race to build the highest post count. This, in fact, is one of the major symptoms of visible post count. One could argue the triviality of this problem. *whisper*more moderators*whisper*....But really, some regular or more frequent members would not as easily succumb to such an end, as they generally have a greater sense of respect for the forums and Bungie.

In conclusion, all I'm trying to get across is this: Our moderators are whining wussies (j/k). On a more serious note, they're jobs would not be that much more difficult, in the light of policing action...or would they? I think not. From the loads ass of spam I've become almost indifferent to in the Flood; the constant spam accounts; and the unjustified, immature, and sometimes intentional rule breaking, flaming, and trolling have come predominantly from those who are naturally minded in such ways. In other words, all of the crap that we all hate so much—the breaking of the rules—does not singularly come from regular or "older" members boasting their member dates as a means to an end. I don't see how a visible post count would be any different than a visible member date in this manner.

One must also not forget the time element. Users glazed with glory for higher post counts could easily be discouraged at their own accord. Creating 2,000 posts is nothing short of a daunting task. Believe me, no human being is so lifeless as to create so many posts in such little time. In other words, it takes time to bake the pie; pie is delicious, but to reap the rewards it must first be cooked. The element of time greatly discourages new users from "ascending the throne" too fast.

I know this issue has been visited time and time again, but I just had a "little bit" to say about it myself—in my own way of course—even though I was hesitant to write it all down. I'm sure that I've repeated a lot of tried discussions.

  • 06.06.2007 5:47 PM PDT
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Read about the Forgotten Spartan I Program
Butane: To protect the world from devastation!
sir_brilliant: To unite all people within our nation!
Rainman89: To denounce the evils of truth and love!
sir_brilliant: To extend out reach to the stars above!
SpaceGhostFlyer: Jessie!
Butane: James!
sir_brilliant: Team Rocket blasting off at the speed of light
Butane: Surrender now or prepare to fight
sir_brilliant: Meowth, that's right!

To be short and sweet (in contrast to your well thought out and time-consuming elegant topic):

Because its not the amount of posts that matters but what's in 'em darn tootin'

  • 06.06.2007 6:05 PM PDT
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Damn, that was a lot to read, and I applaud you for taking the courage to write all this. I for one, have been, and always will be, against the post count. One point made, which stood out most throughout your post, was that other sites have it. But, the fact of the matter is, bungie.net is not most sites. And, as you stated, bungie.net does not have the more intelligent members out there. Thus, throws in the immaturity factor. I like how you posted this however, both the positive and negative. All I can say, is that I prefer visiting bungie.net because of it's uniqueness. And I am sure many other people do as well. If a post count were to be added, the uniqueness would dwindle. As for my other arguments, I can't be bothered to post them all. I have posted them many times before. And to be honest, I am getting a bit tired of reposting them.


*Edit: Forgot one thing; as stated above- Quality>Quantity

[Edited on 06.06.2007 6:09 PM PDT]

  • 06.06.2007 6:05 PM PDT

▄▀▄▀ ODST Recon ▄▀▄▀
☼► The Select Few Who Will Leave Their Guts on the Battle-field... and jump feet first into hell!!! ◄☼


If you want to be a part of one of the greatest and most active communities in the seventh column, come here. You will thank me later.

Your argument is very well thought out, but there is, in my opinion, really only one statement of merit here:

Quality>Quantity

I actually think that the idea of the cutting off the "More Posts by This User" search feature at 999 results is beneficial. Even without a post counter, I wouldn't put it past some people to manually use the search to determine exactly how many posts someone has made.

Personally, I just think that there is so much more to a user than his or her post count. The post counter used to be a reality, as many know, but it was taken down because many members started to use it as a means of bragging rights. It's the same concept that relates with member count in groups, and join dates. For example, it wouldn't be hard to rack up thousands of posts by simply visiting the Flood daily. It serves as an entertaining and, at times, hilariously random place, but many of the posts don't last more than a sentence, and there aren't really that many topics of much thought.

In many cases, some of the better posters on this site are the ones who post rarely, because they post with substance. I remember Achronos talking a while back about how there would be a system rewarding members for making good posts, instead of making a high quantity of posts. Heck, there's a pretty good chance that a post counter would attract considerable amounts of spam.

When you are on bungie.net, you can contribute to the community by posting quality ideas and rich opinions, not by hitting the reply button more than someone else has.

[Edited on 06.06.2007 6:32 PM PDT]

  • 06.06.2007 6:22 PM PDT

There's only one kind of metal, and it's black.

Posted by: King Picollo
Beer = win

Posted by: Rainman89
To be short and sweet (in contrast to your well thought out and time-consuming elegant topic):

Because its not the amount of posts that matters but what's in 'em darn tootin'
Yes, I've definitely heard that one before.

Other things to consider
Bungie has denied us many of the priveleges that we, as Bungie fans, are normally used to getting. We can't have custom avatars, for example. Many of the consequences of having customs avatars are starkly similar to the issue of post count.

Less important, however, is the new signature issue; actually, many people don't really have a problem with the way signatures are now.

My point is, not to turn too far away from the intial topic, why should we be denied so many widely accepted freedoms that most users should have on forums? Is immaturity and spam really an adequate answer? I think not.

Allowing a post count, a privilege, would allow for a leveling effect. I don't think I'm alone when I say that a lot of users, sometimes myself included, feel as if we're a plain, identical pack of sheep. In this pack of identical sheep lie a few black sheep. They are the moderators. We want something to call our own.

  • 06.06.2007 6:26 PM PDT
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Destinypedia - The Wiki for Bungie's Destiny
Posted by: DEATHPIMP72
Anyone but Foman. He smells like cheese.

Sorry for the following terse response for your incredibly long and well-thought out essay.

I read the entire thing, I promise, but the only conclusion I can come away with is the following:

Point 1
Some members have been around for a long, long time but do not post often. When they do, it is spectacular and awe-inspiring.

Example: mrbananas (a mere 173 posts over two years) and his jaw-droppingly detailed universal theory.

Point 2
Some members have been around for a short-to-moderate amount of time and have racked up a pile of posts, comprising a haystack within which the needle of a good thread may or may not exist (i.e., they post a lot with little useful content).

Example: Do I really need to provide one?

Result
Post count is neither an indicator of seniority, nor is it an indicator of post quality. It does not correspond to an author's knowledge, maturity, niceness/meanness, age, gender, writing talent, gaming skills, or anything else.

Really, the only thing that a post counter tells us is..... how many posts you've made.

Problem
Such information does not garner excessive undue respect, nor does it lead to ridiculously inordinate amounts of flaming. Indeed, I do not think that elitism or flaming are the real problems with visible post counts on this particular forum (although such problems are a real concern, even on this forum).

So allow me to elaborate slightly.

Your point was a valid one -- many forums with post counts do not have a problem with spam. But, my friend, there is a crucial difference between those topical discussion forums and this one.

You now find yourself in a forum dedicated to video games and populated by gamers. Allow me to reiterate. Gamers. Gamers are a competitive (to make an understatement) crowd, almost by definition, and at the very least are certainly capable of being stereotyped as such.

And what happens when you tell half a million gamers (this site's active member count) that Bungie.net contains a visible a "number" (or, if you'd like, a "score") that will go up provided that you click a certain combination of buttons on a mouse and keyboard? And that this "score" can be compared to the "score" of other gamers around the world?

Well perhaps I can best answer my own rhetorical question with an analogy. Remember in biology class when they showed you the video of the rat who would get a small pleasurable electric signal sent to its brain every time it pressed a button? And remember how it sat there pressing the button until it starved and then died? Same idea here.

Conclusion
And yet, spam, elitism, and flaming are not my particular problems with the idea of a post count. My only problem is that these three potential negative detriments are outweighed by absolutely no redeeming qualities. As I said previously, post count is an indicator of absolutely nothing at all except for..... how much you post.

Here, members gain respect and recognition through the words that they write -- not the coolness of their embedded photos or their post count. If you're looking for seniority, join dates are already visible through a single extra click. If you're looking for post quality, look no further than the words of the post itself.

I do not mean to trivialize the work that you put into your post, g english, but post counts on this site would cause spam, flaming, and elitism (even if it is, as you argue, somewhat minimal) with no benefits whatsoever.

As a result, I disagree with the idea of a visible post count.

Edit: Guess it wasn't so terse after all ;-)






[Edited on 06.06.2007 6:46 PM PDT]

  • 06.06.2007 6:29 PM PDT

You say tomato; I say potato.

I would like to know what my post count is. It wouldn't effect my posts, but it would be a fun number to know. I bet I have more than Achronos ;P

  • 06.06.2007 6:40 PM PDT
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Posted by: g english
Posted by: Rainman89
To be short and sweet (in contrast to your well thought out and time-consuming elegant topic):

Because its not the amount of posts that matters but what's in 'em darn tootin'
Yes, I've definitely heard that one before.

Other things to consider
Bungie has denied us many of the priveleges that we, as Bungie fans, are normally used to getting. We can't have custom avatars, for example. Many of the consequences of having customs avatars are starkly similar to the issue of post count.

Less important, however, is the new signature issue; actually, many people don't really have a problem with the way signatures are now.

My point is, not to turn too far away from the intial topic, why should we be denied so many widely accepted freedoms that most users should have on forums? Is immaturity and spam really an adequate answer? I think not.

Allowing a post count, a privilege, would allow for a leveling effect. I don't think I'm alone when I say that a lot of users, sometimes myself included, feel as if we're a plain, identical pack of sheep. In this pack of identical sheep lie a few black sheep. They are the moderators. We want something to call our own.


What you seem to be mistaken g english, and I don't mean to be offending here, is that Bungie is not denying any privilege to us, we are denying it to ourselves. And I say that lightly. Most of us do not want post counts, leveling system, emoticons, or even a mere custom avatar. Mainly because this community is far too immature to handle such things. The responsible ones, as the ones that have posted in this thread and will post, are the ones that are 'holding back the community'; as some would say. But we are not holding back the community, we are pushing it forward in the best way we know how.

When walking a dog, you need to give it some leash so it may run freely, but keep it close enough so it doesn't get into trouble.

  • 06.06.2007 6:45 PM PDT

There's only one kind of metal, and it's black.

Posted by: King Picollo
Beer = win

Posted by: x Foman123 x
And what happens when you tell half a million gamers (this site's active member count) that Bungie.net contains a visible a "number" (or, if you'd like, a "score") that will go up provided that you click a certain combination of buttons on a mouse and keyboard? And that this "score" can be compared to the "score" of other gamers around the world?
Yep, I was thinking the exact same thing. I ran out of room, and I'm not a big fan of multiple-post essays. :P

What you said overall does highlight a lot of points I didn't highlight, mainly because my post was trying to center on the less obvious positives/negatives of a post count.

What you said definitely adds to the argument. It really does seem trivial, and pointless, on the scheme of things. As gnome points out, for some comic relief, it would be pretty interesting to really see just how many posts we actually have.

Thanks for your input Foman, and the read!

Don't forget about the second option in the poll!

[Edited on 06.08.2007 5:08 AM PDT]

  • 06.06.2007 6:51 PM PDT

There's only one kind of metal, and it's black.

Posted by: King Picollo
Beer = win

Posted by: M3 Roki7
When walking a dog, you need to give it some leash so it may run freely, but keep it close enough so it doesn't get into trouble.
Yes, definitely true as well. I understand where you're coming from completely.

But think of the alternatives. If member dates were taken away, "hidden" as it were, then why can't a post count be hidden as well?

Think of it this way. Say, a legitimate "post" were only one with a minimum number of characters. I'm sure this might have been talked about before. It sounds like an applicable option to me. This would very well do away with lame one-liners than get counted as a full post. A lot of the forums are wrought with those boogers. :P

It all sounds so silly in the end, mainly for reasons many of you have mentioned—probably mentioned so many times that you're sick of it. I definitely agree that quality, or substance, in posts is more important than quantity of said posts.

I just always thought it was a nice, trite addition. A trinket...:P

  • 06.06.2007 7:00 PM PDT

I remember when I used this space to put cool looking links to my chapters back in the day. I don't even know why I'm using it now. Why are you even reading this? You must be interested in me. Still reading?

Exactly. If B.net had a post count system, people would constantly spam all day long just to say, "Ha! I totaly pwn nubs in post count!" and stuff like that. Based on what you said, Rokit, we are all on a digital leash and must follow given guidelines but we also have some room to roam and be creative within the walls of the Seventh Column and the public forums.

If we alowed the things like customs avatars and post counts, the immature members of B.net would start uploading images of their own asses and showing the world (which would be disturbing) but Bungie offers a very large variety of avatars to pick from. Post counts would be taken to competitevely and B.net would turn into spamville.

The way I see it is just how it should be in the Seventh Column; Quality posts and threads > Many sensless, spamming posts and threads.

I would also like to add something I noticed a few months ago. The well know Mod-only chapter, HFCS, has an article section with Rules, Guidelines, etcB.net Forum Rules article one section reads, "* Noob, Newbie, N00b, and any other variants on the word newb are hereby banned from use on this forum as is the "gamer slur of the week" (currently the "bad kid" alterations would qualify). Any user who violates this rule will be put to death. These are insults and are a form of personal attack. It is not "playful trash talking", save it for your LAN party where the target of the slur at least has the ability to kick you in the nuts.

If you noticed, "death" is bold and underlined. It is actually a link that leads to a screenshot of a moderator about to "Release the Ninjas" on him. Below the users avatar there is a Post Count. This proves that it has actually been a feature in the past. It was taken off for a reason; to prevent spam.

  • 06.06.2007 7:08 PM PDT
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Posted by: g english
Posted by: M3 Roki7
When walking a dog, you need to give it some leash so it may run freely, but keep it close enough so it doesn't get into trouble.
Yes, definitely true as well. I understand where you're coming from completely.

But think of the alternatives. If member dates were taken away, "hidden" as it were, then why can't a post count be hidden as well?

Think of it this way. Say, a legitimate "post" were only one with a minimum number of characters. I'm sure this might have been talked about before. It sounds like an applicable option to me. This would very well do away with lame one-liners than get counted as a full post. A lot of the forums are wrought with those boogers. :P

It all sounds so silly in the end, mainly for reasons many of you have mentioned—probably mentioned so many times that you're sick of it. I definitely agree that quality, or substance, in posts is more important than quantity of said posts.

I just always thought it was a nice, trite addition. A trinket...:P

I agree with the minimum number of characters to be even considered a post. But that still does not take away the factor of quality over quantity issue. Time and time again, and I am sure you have seen it yourself as well, someone has a ridiculous amount of question marks or exclamation point scrambled with ones, this would actually be considered a post, even if it were actually a one liner. Personally, I think that if a post count were to ever be implemented, it should only be viewed by the Super Users, and the person that is posting. This is with the minimum character limit as well mind you. And, to be quite honest, I would hate to see a post count implemented, in any way, shape, or form. If it were, so it goes. Yes there was one implemented before, but they removed it. And I say good rid ens. The only site that I have seen to good with a post count is the Nintendo forums, and even then there are still posts of 'ZOMG I finally got 1000 posts!!'. So, to this idea, I am basically all against it. As well, I see where you are coming from. Yet, I still feel that the community is unable to handle such a thing. But then again, who am I to say what comes or goes?

  • 06.06.2007 7:13 PM PDT

There's only one kind of metal, and it's black.

Posted by: King Picollo
Beer = win

It seems so funny, mainly because of the time element I mentioned towards the end. No one seems to "battle" for an early member date. It takes too much time, and waiting. It would literally be (1) create account; (2) wait for 3-4 years.

Post counts, like ranks in XBL, are a source of competition amongst many of the members on the forums. Thus, even though many of us more modest members—who keep our chops closed mind you, follow the rules—we still must fall because of the majority. Sadly, majority rule tends to be violent, competitive, radical, and ultimately hard to control by the structured members of the society.

  • 06.06.2007 7:20 PM PDT

▄▀▄▀ ODST Recon ▄▀▄▀
☼► The Select Few Who Will Leave Their Guts on the Battle-field... and jump feet first into hell!!! ◄☼


If you want to be a part of one of the greatest and most active communities in the seventh column, come here. You will thank me later.

Posted by: g english
It seems so funny, mainly because of the time element I mentioned towards the end. No one seems to "battle" for an early member date. It takes too much time, and waiting. It would literally be (1) create account; (2) wait for 3-4 years.

Post counts, like ranks in XBL, are a source of competition amongst many of the members on the forums. Thus, even though many of us more modest members—who keep our chops closed mind you, follow the rules—we still must fall because of the majority. Sadly, majority rule tends to be violent, competitive, radical, and ultimately hard to control by the structured members of the society.


Are you contradicting yourself now?

*Bangs head on table*

  • 06.06.2007 8:38 PM PDT

There's only one kind of metal, and it's black.

Posted by: King Picollo
Beer = win

Posted by: mediocresniper
Posted by: g english
It seems so funny, mainly because of the time element I mentioned towards the end. No one seems to "battle" for an early member date. It takes too much time, and waiting. It would literally be (1) create account; (2) wait for 3-4 years.

Post counts, like ranks in XBL, are a source of competition amongst many of the members on the forums. Thus, even though many of us more modest members—who keep our chops closed mind you, follow the rules—we still must fall because of the majority. Sadly, majority rule tends to be violent, competitive, radical, and ultimately hard to control by the structured members of the society.


Are you contradicting yourself now?

*Bangs head on table*
No. An effective argument boasts both sides. My original post gave my original position. ^.^

  • 06.06.2007 9:46 PM PDT
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Post count = bad.

  • 06.06.2007 10:26 PM PDT
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Very well written, but I think Foman summed it up best: Despite the small potential for additional spam, there is absolutely no benefit. I think the current system is actually best for recognition, even if it's not official or even noticeable to new members: Reputation. Not a link on the profile, but what people actually think when they see your name and avatar. There are certain members (actually 1) in optimatch who give me a terrible headache when I see they've made yet another thread. There's others who I know deserve a complete read-through of their post, even if it is a wall-o-text. Think of it as a tacit nod to the fact that you are an intelligent community member, and many other members know it. I think that's far better than a new piece of bling on your profile.

  • 06.06.2007 10:59 PM PDT

There's only one kind of metal, and it's black.

Posted by: King Picollo
Beer = win

Posted by: PyrobeIIum
Very well written, but I think Foman summed it up best: Despite the small potential for additional spam, there is absolutely no benefit. I think the current system is actually best for recognition, even if it's not official or even noticeable to new members: Reputation. Not a link on the profile, but what people actually think when they see your name and avatar. There are certain members (actually 1) in optimatch who give me a terrible headache when I see they've made yet another thread. There's others who I know deserve a complete read-through of their post, even if it is a wall-o-text. Think of it as a tacit nod to the fact that you are an intelligent community member, and many other members know it. I think that's far better than a new piece of bling on your profile.
Thanks Pyro.

I tried as best I could to not make it a wall o' text. ^_-

  • 06.06.2007 11:02 PM PDT
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I appreciate how well you thought out this post, and I hate to shoot down something somebody actually really tried to make a point of, but I just can't convince myself that a post count is a good idea.

  • 06.06.2007 11:07 PM PDT

There's only one kind of metal, and it's black.

Posted by: King Picollo
Beer = win

Posted by: Kilroy
I appreciate how well you thought out this post, and I hate to shoot down something somebody actually really tried to make a point of, but I just can't convince myself that a post count is a good idea.
Dude it's fine. I didn't intend to highlight every apsect of the issue. That would be an arduous task.

I just wanted to stress some positives and negatives, possibly ones that aren't considered enough.

I only mused at the idea recently (actually, today). That doesn't mean I'm not open to interpretation and the thoughts of other members. All of your responses have made me reconsider some of my stated points, as I realized that they're even more insignificant than I suspected. Moreover, some new ideas have come to my understanding that I never thought of, especially when I was writing it.

All criticisim is welcome with open arms.

  • 06.06.2007 11:31 PM PDT
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Oh yes

I'd like to chime in on the subject of us ending up faceless clones of each other. That's definitely something I experience. I can differentiate between maybe 20 people on these forums; the rest are just "users." And I post a lot. Part of the problem with no post counts, signatures, or avatars is the way we all end up being faceless. I think this negatively affects maturity because people don't feel any sense of culpability or accountability, as well as hurting the community as people find it difficult to form bonds. This is especially important because Bungie has such a powerful community, it could indeed be even more strong, possibly, with some minor changes.

Other than that, amazingly well-written. You must be on summer break :)

  • 06.07.2007 12:23 AM PDT

Don't count em then.

  • 06.07.2007 4:41 AM PDT
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Location: Outlaws' Summit.

Really good post g english.

I wish I could add a good response, but based on the responses already given, I'm just going to say this:

Bungie.net misses out on a lot of forum stuff because of its immaturity. Heck, we can't even have sigs anymore because of what people put in 'em. Granted, I'm actually kinda glad I don't have to look at who just got "forum married" anymore, but still.........random stuff keep us out on some really cool features.

I believe Recon once said "Membership has its rewards." I guess the only rewards we get are the warm fuzzy feelings inside LOL. But seriously, it's good to be able to help someone out and not expect anything in return, but to encourage good forum behavior (and an overall better community) we need something to "spice things up," if you catch my drift.

I dunno, I wish we could at least try it. For a week or something.

  • 06.07.2007 3:09 PM PDT
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While i'd like to stop being a faceless member of the crowd and get some individuality... Post counts aren't the way to do it. Aside from the fact that people will abuse them with comments like "LOLOLOLO MY POST COUNT > YOURS, YOU SUCK!!" (which happened stupidly often back in the day), they promote crazy amounts of useless contentless posts, mostly from new users trying to boost their post count to a respectable (1000+) level.

Anyway, its not like they actually show anything. I probably have in excess of 10,000 posts on this, a 3 year old account. I know for a fact there's many people who've been around for 6 months or less, who can be grouped in the "community members i'd like to shoot" column, whose post counts will -blam!- on mine from a great height.

Posted by: g english
Users glazed with glory for higher post counts could easily be discouraged at their own accord. Creating 2,000 posts is nothing short of a daunting task.


2000 posts? Thats nothing. On a forum this active, you could easily hit 30-40 posts a day just with casual posting. Thats only 60 days, give or take. If you were really trying to up the count, you could hit 100+ without even raising an eyelid. Respond to every post in the flood, add 10 of your own theories to the halo 2/3 forums' deluges; job's a good'un. Post counts are deceptively large, 1000-2000 isnt really that much.

Personally, instead of post counts, i'd prefer to see user-made custom titles for those with sufficient trust level. This is because post counts are meaningless. Most high post count members on most forums are the village idiots who post everywhere and in everything. You should judge a person not by labels or by the volume of the crap spewing forth from their faces, but rather the content of their posts and their character. A custom title to those with sufficient trust rating allows a person to expand on this character they build up in the forums, instead of them recieiving an automatic label that makes them better than everyone below them, as a post count would.

  • 06.07.2007 3:33 PM PDT

▄▀▄▀ ODST Recon ▄▀▄▀
☼► The Select Few Who Will Leave Their Guts on the Battle-field... and jump feet first into hell!!! ◄☼


If you want to be a part of one of the greatest and most active communities in the seventh column, come here. You will thank me later.

2000 posts? Thats nothing. On a forum this active, you could easily hit 30-40 posts a day just with casual posting. Thats only 60 days, give or take. If you were really trying to up the count, you could hit 100+ without even raising an eyelid. Respond to every post in the flood, add 10 of your own theories to the halo 2/3 forums' deluges; job's a good'un. Post counts are deceptively large, 1000-2000 isnt really that much.
My average post in The Flood rarely lasts more than a sentence.

Why is it that forums about sex, health, politics, etc. are almost always more mature and less fraught with dissenters? Something to think about.
When you think about it for a bit, the slight immaturity of the bungie forums makes sense.

Why does this site tend to attract some immaturity?

Most bungie.net members are individuals around the age of 14-17. Likewise, most of them simply join bungie.net on a whim. They see the site on the back of their game manual, say "Let's check this site out," and thus enter in their passport, making an account. There are half a million members on this site (wow), yet only of a fraction of them become real long-time members. Many of them simply join, make a few posts in the halo 2, 3, or beta forums, and never visit the site again. It makes sense that the halo 3 beta forums are the most active nowadays, because the influx of new members that joined a few weeks ago were primarily those who found about the site from the halo 3 beta.

The reason that this place has become so much more immature is because bungie, the entity that is being represented, has become more popular. The more popular a site becomes, the more immature and less tight-knit it community will be.

Let me draw a parallel to an example of this.

I am a big Cleveland Cavaliers fan (a basketball team in the NBA), and an active poster on their official NBA forums. For any of you who don't know this, Cleveland is the home of the much esteemed Lebron James. A few years ago, when the Cavaliers were a team which, for the most part, flew under the radar, and their forums weren't very active. There were some members, and everyone was familiar with everyone else. For the most part, the community was very pleasant. A good percentage of the people posting on that site had astute basketball minds, and it was an all-around great place to be.

Then, all of a sudden, an individual by the name of Lebron James (perhaps some of you have heard about him) was drafted. Immediately, Cleveland was one of the more well-known basketball towns, and it has been gradually gaining popularity since that day. As a result, the official forums for the team received much more popularity. This would not be a good thing. An influx of what I call "band-wagon fans" joined the site, because it was now "cool" to be a cavaliers fan. The forums changed as a result of this. The forums were now filled with ten-year old children, and the true basketball minds of the place became a minority. Nowadays, instead of legitimate and intelligent player analysis, posts saying "Larry Hughes sux" frequent the forums whenever our team loses a game.

When a place enters a radar, then everyone, including the dull ones, will join it.

The Conclusion

Why does popularity mean immaturity? Bungie.net has, in some ways, become a haven for the immature because it is so easy to find. Everyone has played halo over the past few years, and many have noticed this site simply by looking inside their xbox case.

Back in the day, when bungie was less popular, it was also harder to find. As a result, the more loyal bungie fans were the ones who were willing to look for it, and those were the ones who joined. The site was more concentrated with level-headed down-to-earth members who knew a good bit about Myth, Marathon, Oni etc., and were willing to get into some real discussion about it. As the site became easier to find, more people came across it, including the immature ones.

You mention forums about sex, health, and politics. Why are they more sane?

In order to answer this question, we need to consider the people who would want to join such sites. How many individuals around the ages of 14-17 are willing to discuss issues such as health, politics, and sex? Not many. Those kinds of sites are less mainstream and harderto find. The only people who are ever willing to discuss sex, health, and politics are those who know a good bit about them, because those are very dense topics (much deeper than the topics being discussed on bungie.net).

What is the main point? Bungie.net isn't a very mature place these days. Post counters would have been ok a few years ago because the community was more sane. Now? Now, this site isn't exactly filled with people who can properly handle and regard such a feature.

There's my opinion. Bash me on it if you want to, but make sure to give your reasons.

[Edited on 06.07.2007 7:24 PM PDT]

  • 06.07.2007 5:59 PM PDT

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