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Subject: 777 and counting....
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Posted by: mediocresniper
What is the main point? Bungie.net isn't a very mature place these days. Post counters would have been ok a few years ago because the community was more sane. Now? Now, this site isn't exactly filled with people who can properly handle and regard such a feature.


Rose-tinted glasses.

B.net, over the last 4-5 years, since Halo 1/2's respective releases has never changed. Those who've been here forever and a day will remember when we had post counts. It wasn't fun, which resulted in them being removed (good thing).

The fact is, the core of the community will always be made up from random 13-14 year olds with no nettiquette coming here for a couple of weeks then never coming back. I know i joined the site at the age of 13; most members who have been active 3-4 years did. We can hope, that one day, those of us who have been active a long time and grown in maturity will outnumber the randomers turning up with their general uselessness and crap. We can hope :).

  • 06.07.2007 6:08 PM PDT

▄▀▄▀ ODST Recon ▄▀▄▀
☼► The Select Few Who Will Leave Their Guts on the Battle-field... and jump feet first into hell!!! ◄☼


If you want to be a part of one of the greatest and most active communities in the seventh column, come here. You will thank me later.

Posted by: elmicker
Posted by: mediocresniper
What is the main point? Bungie.net isn't a very mature place these days. Post counters would have been ok a few years ago because the community was more sane. Now? Now, this site isn't exactly filled with people who can properly handle and regard such a feature.


Rose-tinted glasses.

B.net, over the last 4-5 years, since Halo 1/2's respective releases has never changed. Those who've been here forever and a day will remember when we had post counts. It wasn't fun, which resulted in them being removed (good thing).

The fact is, the core of the community will always be made up from random 13-14 year olds with no nettiquette coming here for a couple of weeks then never coming back. I know i joined the site at the age of 13; most members who have been active 3-4 years did. We can hope, that one day, those of us who have been active a long time and grown in maturity will outnumber the randomers turning up with their general uselessness and crap. We can hope :).

That's my point, though. The core of bungie will always be there, but it will be a while before many of the random halo fans go away. I expect bungie to return to a point closer to its original state a few years after the release of halo 3.

Way back (and I mean waaaay back), before even Halo came out, the general seventh column population was made of more loyal supporters to bungie.

[Edited on 06.07.2007 7:29 PM PDT]

  • 06.07.2007 7:22 PM PDT
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mediocresniper, you make a good point about the maturity of the people, how and why its effected the forums and general state of B.net as a whole. It brings to mind that maybe bungie should take in consideration the members that have been "loyal" to the forums. Meaning members with maturity. This includes respect, etiquette, post quality and a range of other things. If a new rank was available for the members that are worthy, (in the minds of the web team) and respected by other B.net members, I would support that.

Things to take into consideration when implementing a possible rank becoming available:

* The general community not worthy of this rank would become upset
-Indeed what most likely would happen in the event of a rank becoming available to members that are "higher up" (mature) in the eyes of the web team, would be a disturbance in the peace among members who could not attain this rank right away. This further shows that most members are backing my argument for a separation from the general community, to the hardcore, quality members that are very active and responsible in the community. There is an obvious separation between the two.

What I suggest:

* A new Rank
-By giving a select number of members *a rank different from that of a normal member, it may cause uproar like I said, but after that dies down, what may happen would be a goal for users to strive for. Foman said it well gamers are a competitive (to make an understatement) crowd, almost by definition, and at the very least are certainly capable of being stereotyped as such. (notice the word competitive)

The Members on B.net want to attain recognition. Members want to have a goal. so far there is no real reward (visibly) for a member to feel recognition. They just need to realize what recognition means on B.net. If the way to get a different rank on bungie is to become respectable, more mature, making quality posts, then I sure as Hell believe that can be done. The web team just has to lead them to that path.
*Note: Lets call the new rank: Rank 2.0

* Many members will want this idea to come into effect
-Because of the distinct notion that members will want to compete for 2.0, brings up a new question: What will happen when alot of members become respectable and mature in B.net? 2.0 will become undesirable again because a number of members will have it, and a pattern will form. The first members that got 2.0 would want a new rank. better than the previous. A 3.0. What I can offer in terms of an outcome for that scenario is this; make the credentials for attaining a higher rank more strict.

The resolution to this idea:
Can you imagine if alot of the community became quality posters, and respectable users on B.net? it would be completely and ridiculously awesome!

[Edited on 06.07.2007 10:37 PM PDT]

  • 06.07.2007 10:29 PM PDT

▄▀▄▀ ODST Recon ▄▀▄▀
☼► The Select Few Who Will Leave Their Guts on the Battle-field... and jump feet first into hell!!! ◄☼


If you want to be a part of one of the greatest and most active communities in the seventh column, come here. You will thank me later.

Posted by: Thing1
Foman said it well gamers are a competitive (to make an understatement) crowd, almost by definition, and at the very least are certainly capable of being stereotyped as such. (notice the word competitive)

The Members on B.net want to attain recognition. Members want to have a goal. so far there is no real reward (visibly) for a member to feel recognition. They just need to realize what recognition means on B.net. If the way to get a different rank on bungie is to become respectable, more mature, making quality posts, then I sure as Hell believe that can be done. The web team just has to lead them to that path.

Can you imagine if alot of the community became quality posters, and respectable users on B.net? it would be completely and ridiculously awesome!

I have to disagree with this bit. Indeed, this site is filled with gamers, but last me ask another question.

How many of your male peers don't play video-games?

In my case, not very many.

Most people play video games for fun, and many of the people who visit this site come here for that same reason. Some hang around on The Flood and crack jokes all day. Some want to indulge in intelligent discussion while presenting and refuting their theories on the halo universe. Some are old-school bungie fanatics who post in The Underground. Some are just looking to enjoy the general seventh column and its community.

If you want the true definition of a competitive bunch, then I recommend checking out the MLG forums. In my experience, many of the people on this site are here just for enjoyment, and many want to make contributions. In my opinion, having a system of elitism would have the potential to change that.

  • 06.07.2007 11:17 PM PDT

There's only one kind of metal, and it's black.

Posted by: King Picollo
Beer = win

Posted by: elmicker
Posted by: g english
Users glazed with glory for higher post counts could easily be discouraged at their own accord. Creating 2,000 posts is nothing short of a daunting task.


2000 posts? Thats nothing. On a forum this active, you could easily hit 30-40 posts a day just with casual posting. Thats only 60 days, give or take. If you were really trying to up the count, you could hit 100+ without even raising an eyelid. Respond to every post in the flood, add 10 of your own theories to the halo 2/3 forums' deluges; job's a good'un. Post counts are deceptively large, 1000-2000 isnt really that much.
I appreciate your more radical view, but I still think that even 2,000 posts, whether that takes a few weeks or not, still takes time. Those who have been members for much longer than those just joining will be far ahead of the "arms race," and this in itself could contribute a leveling effect.

I do in fact realize how small that number really is. I actually just recently searched my name, out of curiosity, to see when the 999th post was currently. It was this past April. The 999th post constantly changes; as more and more posts are made, your newer ones on the list are pushed into a "black hole," past 999. As you can see, that's still quite a ways away from 2,000. So that means that, on average, an active member will post around 1,000 posts over a period of a month or so. You are right in that respect. Definitely.

Ask any regular from the Flood, and they'll tell you that I am a very active member there. I average easily 40 posts a day, most of the time, and come on every day of the week; there is one notable exception, being most weekends when choose to visit my parents.

I still find much of the competitive spirit of gaming forums, in all forms and fashions—point systems, ranks, post counts, etc.—highly destructive and pointless...



Posted by: elmicker
You should judge a person not by labels or by the volume of the crap spewing forth from their faces, but rather the content of their posts and their character.
Quite right as well. But...

What if post counts only counted actual posts (more than a few sentences)? Taking into consideration what was said earlier, this easily poses a nasty problem. All characters count as "words."

What if "posts" were ranked and voted on, through some sort of system by other members—possibly open only to active members; this could open the elitist debate of course—to be actual posts? This could easily mark only posts with a sense of accomplishment in quality, and double as a displayable "custom title."

[Edited on 06.08.2007 5:36 AM PDT]

  • 06.08.2007 5:17 AM PDT
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Posted by: g english
What if post counts only counted actual posts (more than a few sentences)? Taking into consideration what was said earlier, this easily poses a nasty problem. All characters count as "words."


Quantity does not necessarily indicate quality. Many posts only require 2-3 words to respond to. All we'll see if that kind of system was instituted is people fluffing out their posts with crap. The forums'd take a massive hit in terms of post quality.

What if "posts" were ranked and voted on, through some sort of system by other members—possibly open only to active members; this could open the elitist debate of course—to be actual posts? This could easily mark only posts with a sense of accomplishment in quality, and double as a displayable "custom title."

>.<

Karma systems.

We've done these to death in here. They just cannot work on b.net. Too easy to make alt accounts, too easy to circumvent bannings, and frankly, i'd rather not have my posts rated by a bunch of mindless 14 year olds.

  • 06.08.2007 8:11 AM PDT

There's only one kind of metal, and it's black.

Posted by: King Picollo
Beer = win

Posted by: elmicker
Karma systems.

We've done these to death in here. They just cannot work on b.net. Too easy to make alt accounts, too easy to circumvent bannings, and frankly, i'd rather not have my posts rated by a bunch of mindless 14 year olds.
I forget why ISP bans do not apply to B.net.

I know this whole issue, as I mentioned, is really petty and quite frankly stupid to keep debating about. I just think it's so funny how such dislike for post counts is so prevalent on the forums. Something that, in most places, is seemingly inane and benign on B.net is damning.

I don't see the correlation between a karma system, of sorts, and the feasibility of creating alternate accounts.

I also do not see the correlation between karma systems and banning practices.

The last point, that you wouldn't want to be rated by "mindless 14-year-olds," can be easily refuted. The only way to rebut this refutation would be to bring the elitism issue back into the light. If only active or "old" members were allowed to indulge in the karma system, then this would not be a problem. Then again, this is even pointless.

The best method would be to have people pay a fee, which a lot of sites authorize...but I doubt this would have much sway amongst most of the public.

Really, the fear of being rated by others, in spite of their age and maturity, is just an overactive fear to me.

[Edited on 06.08.2007 8:37 AM PDT]

  • 06.08.2007 8:29 AM PDT

Strange evolution how people have come to believe
That we are it's greatest achievement
We're barely, we're just a collection of cells
Overrating themselves

To sum up Bungies view on the matter, Bungie.net was designed and intended to be a place where the community can interact. Anything that would individualize someone (other than names) detracts from the community.

The people who have been here awhile know who to trust and and who is full of it. There is a good flow of new people who are halfway sane and can carry on a conversation, and I can t remember what the rest of this sentence was going to be.

Im going to go drink some Red Bull and wake myself up.

  • 06.08.2007 9:00 AM PDT
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Posted by: g english
I forget why ISP bans do not apply to B.net.


Because they dont work. Cycle your router/modem, and you're no longer banned. Its only possibly to permanently ban someone from bungie.net if they're on a static IP (rare), and even then, only if theyre stupid enough to not know what a proxy is.

I know this whole issue, as I mentioned, is really petty and quite frankly stupid to keep debating about. I just think it's so funny how such dislike for post counts is so prevalent on the forums. Something that, in most places, is seemingly inane and benign on B.net is damning.

We dislike them, because last time we had them, they served no real purpose, and simply caused far, far too much trouble.

I don't see the correlation between a karma system, of sorts, and the feasibility of creating alternate accounts.

Account #1 makes decidedly average post.
Accounts #2-10 rate decidedly average post much higher than it deserves.
Account #1 gets much praise (probably automatic custom titles etc.) for high post ratings.

I also do not see the correlation between karma systems and banning practices.

Ninja #1 finds out about account #1 abusing the rating system and gives accounts #1-10 permanent bans.
Account #11 appears, and continues as if nothing has ever happened, with a perfectly clean record.

The last point, that you wouldn't want to be rated by "mindless 14-year-olds," can be easily refuted. The only way to rebut this refutation would be to bring the elitism issue back into the light. If only active or "old" members were allowed to indulge in the karma system, then this would not be a problem. Then again, this is even pointless.

Again, you assume quantity equals quality. Just because your account is a year old, or two years old or whatever does not automatically make you a better member than someone who has just arrived.

The best method would be to have people pay a fee, which a lot of sites authorize...but I doubt this would have much sway amongst most of the public.

gb2SA, goon.

  • 06.08.2007 9:21 AM PDT

▄▀▄▀ ODST Recon ▄▀▄▀
☼► The Select Few Who Will Leave Their Guts on the Battle-field... and jump feet first into hell!!! ◄☼


If you want to be a part of one of the greatest and most active communities in the seventh column, come here. You will thank me later.

I forget why ISP bans do not apply to B.net.
They do. If you're banned and try to make an alternate account, the Soul awakens and takes you as his victim.

I don't see the correlation between a karma system, of sorts, and the feasibility of creating alternate accounts.
If there was a reputation system of sorts based on voting by other members, it wouldn't be very hard to make alternate accounts and use them to increase one's rating. It could be alikened to refreshing cookies and voting multiple times in a poll.

At the end of a day, such a repuation system is bound to not work.

The only way to rebut this refutation would be to bring the elitism issue back into the light. If only active or "old" members were allowed to indulge in the karma system, then this would not be a problem. Then again, this is even pointless.
As you've said, that's elitism. This site is probably better off without that kind of competitive encouragement.

The best method would be to have people pay a fee, which a lot of sites authorize...but I doubt this would have much sway amongst most of the public.
No, thank you. This place is fine as it is, there's no need to bring money and credit cards into the equation.

Really, the fear of being rated by others, in spite of their age and maturity, is just an overactive fear to me.
There is no "fear" involved, for the record. Most of us from the seventh column simply don't see many benefits of such a system, and those are far outweighed by the negatives.

Im going to go drink some Red Bull and wake myself up.
That sounds like a good idea.

  • 06.08.2007 9:22 AM PDT
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Posted by: mediocresniper
I forget why ISP bans do not apply to B.net.
They do. If you're banned and try to make an alternate account, the Soul awakens and takes you as his victim.


If i'm not mistaken, that has nothing to do with your ISP or your IP address.

  • 06.08.2007 9:28 AM PDT

▄▀▄▀ ODST Recon ▄▀▄▀
☼► The Select Few Who Will Leave Their Guts on the Battle-field... and jump feet first into hell!!! ◄☼


If you want to be a part of one of the greatest and most active communities in the seventh column, come here. You will thank me later.

Posted by: elmicker
Posted by: mediocresniper
I forget why ISP bans do not apply to B.net.
They do. If you're banned and try to make an alternate account, the Soul awakens and takes you as his victim.


If i'm not mistaken, that has nothing to do with your ISP or your IP address.

I believe it does. I know someone who was banned, made a new account, and automatically had that one blacklisted the second he tried to sign onto the forums with it (by the Soul).

  • 06.08.2007 10:03 AM PDT
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Posted by: mediocresniper
Posted by: elmicker
Posted by: mediocresniper
I forget why ISP bans do not apply to B.net.
They do. If you're banned and try to make an alternate account, the Soul awakens and takes you as his victim.


If i'm not mistaken, that has nothing to do with your ISP or your IP address.

I believe it does. I know someone who was banned, made a new account, and automatically had that one blacklisted the second he tried to sign onto the forums with it (by the Soul).

That's not ISP tracking. Achronos has explicitly stated that IP bans do not work and that he does not employ the Soul to IP ban. He uses a different method, but that's all I'll say about it.

  • 06.08.2007 10:12 AM PDT
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Destinypedia - The Wiki for Bungie's Destiny
Posted by: DEATHPIMP72
Anyone but Foman. He smells like cheese.

Posted by: mediocresniper
Posted by: elmicker
Posted by: mediocresniper
I forget why ISP bans do not apply to B.net.
They do. If you're banned and try to make an alternate account, the Soul awakens and takes you as his victim.


If i'm not mistaken, that has nothing to do with your ISP or your IP address.

I believe it does. I know someone who was banned, made a new account, and automatically had that one blacklisted the second he tried to sign onto the forums with it (by the Soul).

"I know someone." LOL

I'm thinking it could easily have to do with a cookie in your web browser.

  • 06.08.2007 10:15 AM PDT

▄▀▄▀ ODST Recon ▄▀▄▀
☼► The Select Few Who Will Leave Their Guts on the Battle-field... and jump feet first into hell!!! ◄☼


If you want to be a part of one of the greatest and most active communities in the seventh column, come here. You will thank me later.

Posted by: x Foman123 x
Posted by: mediocresniper
Posted by: elmicker
Posted by: mediocresniper
I forget why ISP bans do not apply to B.net.
They do. If you're banned and try to make an alternate account, the Soul awakens and takes you as his victim.


If i'm not mistaken, that has nothing to do with your ISP or your IP address.

I believe it does. I know someone who was banned, made a new account, and automatically had that one blacklisted the second he tried to sign onto the forums with it (by the Soul).

"I know someone." LOL

I'm thinking it could easily have to do with a cookie in your web browser.

Are you implying that I've been blacklisted?

  • 06.08.2007 10:18 AM PDT

There's only one kind of metal, and it's black.

Posted by: King Picollo
Beer = win

It seems that age range, immaturity, and population statistics have gotten the better of my argument. I just don't think it's fair to those individuals who would like to know, out of innocent curiosity, just how many posts they've actually made.

I'm a human being, and an intellectual one at that. I like to know things.

And yes, Soul bans have nothing to do with ISP. I've had the unfortunate outcome a few times of Soul bans, mainly because I had my days of immaturity—actually, immaturity is not the proper adjective here; bored indulgence is more like it—fraught with alternatie accounts. As I tried to revert back to my "serious" accounts, I would "pull a blonde" and easily forget to delete cookies. It happens.

But then again, I'm swaying from the matter at hand, even though such a matter seems surely slaughtered and burned to Hell as I speak. ^.^

Too bad I didn't bother to participate on Bungie's forums back in 2001. I blame HBO...:D

[Edited on 06.08.2007 11:11 AM PDT]

  • 06.08.2007 11:10 AM PDT

Why can't the post count just be put in the person's profile visible only to the user himself, possibly in the "saved threads" section?

[Edited on 06.08.2007 11:55 AM PDT]

  • 06.08.2007 11:44 AM PDT

▄▀▄▀ ODST Recon ▄▀▄▀
☼► The Select Few Who Will Leave Their Guts on the Battle-field... and jump feet first into hell!!! ◄☼


If you want to be a part of one of the greatest and most active communities in the seventh column, come here. You will thank me later.

Posted by: RedPhoenix 57
Why can't the post count just be put in the person's profile visible only to the user himself, possibly in the "saved threads" section?

Word.

  • 06.08.2007 11:56 AM PDT

I can't believe you wrote that much about post counts. Post counts. I read all of that and I still can't really understand why you want them. So when a new member comes along needing help they will know you are the one to go to because you've made a gajillion posts? To enhance somebody's reputation? Or, just for the simple and most logical reason of having post counts in the first place-to count your posts? I'm sure that if someone could make a program to find which mod is on, someone could engineer one that scours Bungie.net counting every post a certain user has ever made if you really want to know that bad.

Sorry if this sounds a little flame-y. I've just grown tired of these uber-long rants about the most trivial things. I'm really starting to believe that the so-called intelligence in The Septagon is more of a stigma than a blessing. I think that the OP could have easily condensed his entire stance into something 1/5 the size of the original. Of course, he wouldn't have gotten praised for such a long and well thought out idea even if people still disagreed with it. I'm still waiting for the 20 paragraph master thesis on raising the characters allowed per post.

  • 06.08.2007 12:43 PM PDT

There's only one kind of metal, and it's black.

Posted by: King Picollo
Beer = win

Posted by: Spec_Ops_Assault
I can't believe you wrote that much about post counts. Post counts. I read all of that and I still can't really understand why you want them. So when a new member comes along needing help they will know you are the one to go to because you've made a gajillion posts? To enhance somebody's reputation? Or, just for the simple and most logical reason of having post counts in the first place-to count your posts? I'm sure that if someone could make a program to find which mod is on, someone could engineer one that scours Bungie.net counting every post a certain user has ever made if you really want to know that bad.

Sorry if this sounds a little flame-y. I've just grown tired of these uber-long rants about the most trivial things. I'm really starting to believe that the so-called intelligence in The Septagon is more of a stigma than a blessing. I think that the OP could have easily condensed his entire stance into something 1/5 the size of the original. Of course, he wouldn't have gotten praised for such a long and well thought out idea even if people still disagreed with it. I'm still waiting for the 20 paragraph master thesis on raising the characters allowed per post.
It wasn't meant to be something so long over something so pointless. I just had some thoughts. As a member, I have a right to convey my thoughts. If you don't like it, and seeing as you don't, then fine.

You obviously have nothing to contribute that wasn't already mentioned.

The Septagon is meant for discussion. It won't hurt to read everything, so you don't look as if you're repeating what's already been discussed in the thread.

I understand where you're coming from, don't get me wrong. I'm not trying to be mean, as you weren't. It just took me the better half of an hour to write all of that. I was quite precarious of writing my thoughts down because I knew the issue was age-old. I still have a right to bring it up once more.

Honestly, I don't care much for post counts. I just wanted to incite some more debate on it. Nothing wrong with that. You don't have to respond, or read.

[Edited on 06.08.2007 1:23 PM PDT]

  • 06.08.2007 1:12 PM PDT

Tom Achronos
Bungie.net Overlord
twitter: http://twitter.com/Achronos

"I have no words that would do justice to the atrocities you commit to the English language, as well as your continued assaults on the concepts of basic literacy and logical reasoning."

That's easy to say when you're not the one tasked with managing the miscreants.

Post counts are irrelevant information in regarding the quality of your posts. If you want to know your post count, use a scratch pad and count them yourself.

And regular members are never, ever, ever getting custom avatars here. Ever.

Posted by: g englishMy point is, not to turn too far away from the intial topic, why should we be denied so many widely accepted freedoms that most users should have on forums? Is immaturity and spam really an adequate answer? I think not.

  • 06.08.2007 1:56 PM PDT

Strange evolution how people have come to believe
That we are it's greatest achievement
We're barely, we're just a collection of cells
Overrating themselves

Posted by: Achronos
And regular members are never, ever, ever getting custom avatars here. Ever.

So should we email our designs to you or should we post them with a link?

=)

  • 06.08.2007 1:59 PM PDT
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Posted by: Achronos
And regular members are never, ever, ever getting custom avatars here. Ever.



Awhh... Go on...

  • 06.08.2007 2:17 PM PDT

Proverbs 16:23 A wise man's heart guides his mouth, and his lips promote instruction

Fight For Your True Calling I The Bungie Army
Do you have what it takes to become a ninja? Join
Ninja Academy

Posted by: Achronos


And regular members are never, ever, ever getting custom avatars here. Ever.




YES YES YES

that what i've been waiting to hear

i like that fact that only b.net mod get the custom avatars

  • 06.08.2007 4:46 PM PDT
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Posted by: PowerJoe 33
i like that fact that only b.net mod get the custom avatars


And superusers.
And Theme masters.
And ex-employees.

:)

  • 06.08.2007 5:01 PM PDT

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