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Subject: The community is killing itself.
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  • Exalted Mythic Member
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Want to know more about me? Check out my Community Joes interview.

Trying something once will increace your chances of success, because you tried it. Try someting twice, and your chances increase yet again - seeing as you've done it. Try something a few thousand times, and your chances of success is exponentially increased; this increase would likely provide success every time

Note: I will not name any individual with in this post. All of this information is indirectly pointed towards certain users. These users know who they are, which is why I wish to keep their names anonymous. I wish to simply bring awareness to this issue, with hope that it will stop.

I come to the community, for something that has stood out for the two years that I have been here, yet I have just noticed it in these last few months. My problem, we, ourselves, are promoting elitism. Not only that, but some of the 'higher ups' have picked favorites. I admit, things have gone down hill these past couple years, and finally, it seems that things will be returning to how they once were. You see, a year and a half ago, the mods were ruthless, and rarely gave warnings. Now, which began a year and a half or so ago, the mods have began to 'sleep' if you will. But, mind you, this is not their fault. Nor is it any body's for that matter. I think, that this is due to the 'Warning' system that was set into place just a few months ago. This system has let off thousands of people getting blacklisted, which once should have been blacklisted. Things have changed, not for the better, but for the worse.

As for us promoting elitism, I bring to you a quote:
Freedom isn't given here, it is earned.

For example, in this forum, participants are generally better behaved. So, it isn't that big a deal when someone makes an offtopic post so much. Even offtopic threads usually just get moved, and no warning/bans are given unless you have a history of it.

But in forums like the Halo 3 forum, a huge mass of morons fester in there. This means that they get zero leeway in the rules. They don't get the same freedom because they don't deserve it (based on their actions).

There are, of course, exceptions (this is why moderating is subjective and requires highly trusted people to do it). If the people in the Halo 3 forum didn't behave collectively like idiots half the time, they'd find much more freedom to have a more organic conversation.

Now, I find this to be very alerting. We are promoting elitism. There is no reason why the Septagon should be treated any different then the Halo 3 Forum. Granted, we do behave and don't flame. Yet, how does that give us the privilege of taking threads off-topic? How does that give us the privilege to act stuck up? I look around, and I see common users in the Septagon, 'derailing', or taking threads off-topic, within the Septagon, let alone any forum. Granted, there are only a few individuals doing this, yet they still don't get punished? This has driven me to believe that our fears of elitism, doesn't revolve around some tool or gadget, yet the community itself.

There are people here that become 'chums' of the mods to get away with certain things. Yet, again, this is not the moderators fault. But our own. Others greed along with basic human needs have blinded us from the truth. There are no words that can express how strongly I feel about this issue. I feel as though our community is killing itself. The members we all know and love, are in fact, power hungry and corrupt. This community has been blinded, and I hope with this post that there will at least bring further attention to this issue.

Privileges never thought to see
The quote above is a perfect example of what I speak of within this next paragraph. Privalages to one group that is not granted to another. It is understandable why some get more privileges than others, due to 'earning' them. Yet, we are one community as a whole. It is not right that the Septagon forum goers, have more trust, and more privileges than any other forum goer. We are all one and the same.

The antagonizers and the dogs
This is a touchy issue, and a very delicate one. As stated above, I have witnessed some members of this community getting away with something that nobody else would get away with. Say, taking a thread off-topic. Many users would get a warning, possibly even a ban if it is severe enough. Yet, I look around within threads, and I see trusted users abusing this trust. I see trusted users derailing topics left and right, why? From what one said, it was having fun with a couple of pals. Yet, their fun, hurts our community. And they are getting away with this, due to the trust that they have earned. Sadly, it seems as though this trust will never deplete. It seems as though, in this community, when trust is earned, you will always have that trust. I personally think that this is not right. If you do something against someone's trust, then one should lose trust, not kept the same.

Conclusion
I understand that this isn't the greatest post, nor is it in very much detail. I am not the greatest writer, so please, excuse the dark spots, and I'll try to answer any questions about this. I just think it is about time that this community learns what is going on in the back round. Awareness will be the only way to stop this madness.

Thank you for your time,
~Rokit~

  • 07.26.2007 1:53 PM PDT
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"Inside every cynical person is a disappointed idealist."
George Carlin

There aren't any members who have more privileges than others...

  • 07.26.2007 1:55 PM PDT
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Read about the Forgotten Spartan I Program
Butane: To protect the world from devastation!
sir_brilliant: To unite all people within our nation!
Rainman89: To denounce the evils of truth and love!
sir_brilliant: To extend out reach to the stars above!
SpaceGhostFlyer: Jessie!
Butane: James!
sir_brilliant: Team Rocket blasting off at the speed of light
Butane: Surrender now or prepare to fight
sir_brilliant: Meowth, that's right!

I must say, since this is about the fortieth "the community will die" proclamation I have read, I have my doubts this one will be any different, and the community will soldier on.

That being said, perhaps it is just these threads that keep the community going. Once someone reads this, they start thinking about the issues it brings up, and might even act differently. So while I won't argue any points, or try to defend a side, I'll just leave with this little question...

Could this community keep lingering on if it weren't for people constantly trying to say it will die soon?

  • 07.26.2007 2:02 PM PDT
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1. No member gets more privileges than others, except for Theme Masters, who only are able to have a unique looking symbol.

2. You will not see very many people banned because they brought something off topic.

3. What in the world are you talking about? Yes there is a warning system, and yes the mods can lean back a little more. But oh well. I would you to name a few of these so called "Special members".

Try not to be so one sided. If you are to present a arguement to the community, show both sisdes.

  • 07.26.2007 2:04 PM PDT

The Septagon is not what it once was.

  • 07.26.2007 2:04 PM PDT

Strange evolution how people have come to believe
That we are it's greatest achievement
We're barely, we're just a collection of cells
Overrating themselves

I dont see the same thing happening.

Even though people who have been here for awhile have developed some sort of comradarie, and in some cases, a respect for other members, it doesnt mean that the typical b.net user is above the law, so to speak.

I can joke with the mods or Achronos or whoever all I want, but beleive me when I tell you that I will still get blacklisted if I step over the line too far.

These forums are the same as anything else in life, if you look hard enough for flaws, you'll find them. These forums arent perfect, the community isnt perfect, Bungie isnt perfect, etc. What we do is try to take the bits and peices that we enjoy and leave the rest on the side.

Edit: This preferential treatment that you think you are observing is just veteran members who have been blacklisted enough to know what they can and can't get away with, in my opinion.

[Edited on 07.26.2007 2:14 PM PDT]

  • 07.26.2007 2:05 PM PDT

You have been plundered by Cap'n IceWolfen. Arggggggggg!

well if the comunity is killing itself then they definatley wont win. Thats like, a -100000 score or something.

  • 07.26.2007 2:12 PM PDT
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"Inside every cynical person is a disappointed idealist."
George Carlin

Posted by: twinkiemaker
Bungie isnt perfect

Blasphemy!

  • 07.26.2007 2:22 PM PDT

Strange evolution how people have come to believe
That we are it's greatest achievement
We're barely, we're just a collection of cells
Overrating themselves

Posted by: The Kodemyster
Posted by: twinkiemaker
Bungie isnt perfect

Blasphemy!

The devil made me do it.

  • 07.26.2007 2:24 PM PDT

Tom Achronos
Bungie.net Overlord
twitter: http://twitter.com/Achronos

"I have no words that would do justice to the atrocities you commit to the English language, as well as your continued assaults on the concepts of basic literacy and logical reasoning."

I am quite frankly sick and tired of "elitism" arguments.

If you have a specific complaint, make it. Philosophical whining about how things aren't fair does not interest me.

Life isn't fair, and you don't have access to all the warnings, the short bans, the history of accounts, the private messages, etc.

So, again, I say if you have a specific incident, make the complaint to the appropriate master moderator or myself. Otherwise, stop whining about your perceptions. This forum is more concerned with "elitism" than any group I've ever seen, and in most cases it is just silly. Some people are just going to always be elitist, and the rest of us aren't. The elitists will be ignored as usual, so there really isn't a problem other than your perception of what's going on.

  • 07.26.2007 2:34 PM PDT

Sandswept Studios Design Director

Visit us and check out our games at Sandswept.net!

~~Pardon Our Dust.~~

Rokit, let's make this clear first, I have no delusions about who you're referring to and something you claim they've been doing recently. You think because they're 'chummy' with the moderators, they get away with things, act like a jerk, go around running threads right off the rails. Sorry, but that's down-right ridiculous. Obviously people who are better friends with the mods get some leniency on things, but that's pretty much human nature. You treat your friends slightly different than complete strangers.

The moderators are honest guys, nonetheless. When someone does something worth a blacklist, they see to it. I've seen good friends of moderators get blacklisted for posting leaked content and doing things they shouldn't be doing. The moderator was their friend, but they said "Sorry, rules are rules." We all know a good ex-mod who has been blacklisted at least once since he's been off mod-duty.

However, if you think the people you're referring to are getting away with activities they'd normally be blacklisted for, that's just silly. Making a humorous joke in a Septagon thread does not 'derail' the topic. The most derailing thing you could possibly do in such a situation is start an argument about whether or not the comment was derailing. We're all here to have fun, aren't we? Obviously you want to be serious about things when the situation requires it, but a bit of 'goofing off' and some humorous comments (See, many of us find the moderators' and other members' comments humorous, even if you think it's childish and silly) will not hurt the community.

Bungie has always had a bit of humor about it's community. I'd hate to see that die because someone decided that it was too childish and not strict enough.

  • 07.26.2007 2:36 PM PDT

Tom Achronos
Bungie.net Overlord
twitter: http://twitter.com/Achronos

"I have no words that would do justice to the atrocities you commit to the English language, as well as your continued assaults on the concepts of basic literacy and logical reasoning."

Oh, and by the way, of course the Septagon users are more trusted than the Halo 3 forum. Have you SEEN the Halo 3 forum? Notice how little spam there is in the Septagon forum? And when there is spam, it is almost always from someone who isn't a regular to this forum.

That means that the Septagon regulars have earned the freedom to not always be on topic, to stretch the rules a bit. The Halo 3 forum, on the other hand, is regularly spammed by its own regulars, making stupid posts, flamewars, etc. Many of those regulars behave like small children, and thus will be treated as such until they figure out that kind of behavior isn't tolerated.

You don't get to define the community. It defines itself. I suggest you step out of your fantasy world. Everyhting is not equal. The same standards do not apply to each forum, because the sub-community around each is different. Suggesting otherwise ignores the reality of the community as it has defined itself.

  • 07.26.2007 2:40 PM PDT

Tom Achronos
Bungie.net Overlord
twitter: http://twitter.com/Achronos

"I have no words that would do justice to the atrocities you commit to the English language, as well as your continued assaults on the concepts of basic literacy and logical reasoning."

What the heck does that even mean?

Seriously, you guys look at the past with some rose-tinted glasses.

Posted by: Spec_Ops_Assault
The Septagon is not what it once was.

  • 07.26.2007 2:43 PM PDT
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Posted by: Achronos
Seriously, you guys look at the past with some rose-tinted glasses.


Stop discouraging it. I have an international monopoly on rose-tinted glasses.

  • 07.26.2007 2:50 PM PDT
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Mm...Achronos losing his cool. Me likey.

I've come to a distinc realization over my time here on the Forums...it's a Forum. If you expect people to behave in a polite rational manner, look at your deep and insightful words, and try and make a change for the better, then you obviously don't understand the purpose of a Forum. Sure we're a community, but we're a community of words and themed pictures! Do you honestly think people care that you--one person in the vast space of the interweb--are sick of elitism?

There's a reason the girl threads, movie threads and game threads all get hundreds of posts while a thread like this is lucky to make it past the first page. People don't come to a Forum for pretty speeches and petty politics. They came for a place to say what they want without getting punched in the face, to give their input and not care if someone disagrees. To t1p3 l1k3 t41s...I suck at that. What I'm saying is, you're talking like you want to form some coalition or rebellion when really...it's just a Forum! You can complain about the Mods, the Overlord, or Bungie itself...but it doesn't matter, because you're just words on a screen.

  • 07.26.2007 2:58 PM PDT

-§kipper

Posted by: Achronos
What the heck does that even mean?

Seriously, you guys look at the past with some rose-tinted glasses.

Posted by: Spec_Ops_Assault
The Septagon is not what it once was.


Now when the septagon was the chapter founders forum, that was the -blam!-. But I don't see any problem with it how it is now, I still enjoy it. I just lurk more and say less.

  • 07.26.2007 3:00 PM PDT
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"Inside every cynical person is a disappointed idealist."
George Carlin

Posted by: elmicker
Posted by: Achronos
Seriously, you guys look at the past with some rose-tinted glasses.


Stop discouraging it. I have an international monopoly on rose-tinted glasses.

Kudos?

  • 07.26.2007 3:01 PM PDT

MY LOVE FOR YOU IS LIKE A TRUCK...
Posted by: Langley
--on another note, I think MLG Chewhatever is an idiot.

Posted by: Achronos
There is a reason I am user ID 1 and my account creation date is before this site came online.

Ah, the great debate of whether "All men are created equal" rages on...

Have I ever made a comment in a thread that was off-topic? Yes, of course I have. I would imagine that everyone that has been on these forums have said something that was off-topic. Maybe some previous poster said something that sparked an interest or tangent that was not covered by the original OP's statement. This would be considered off-topic yet is it necessarily harmful to the discussion? Maybe so maybe not. I've seen threads start with one concept and get drove to a completely different one, and it was fantastical (yeah, I said fantastical). Of course, I've seen plenty of threads start with a concept and get derailed faster than AMTRAC. I think the difference is the people who are maliciously derailing topics that are dealt with. I've seen on several occasions, "normies" self-moderate themselves by saying, "this is a good discussion, but we should continue it via PM because it's off-topic". That's commendable. That's showing you know the rules and understand that said rules allow some leverage but there comes a point where an off-topic conversation should be continued elsewhere.

I'll say this, and I've said it countless times before, I am an elitist. I always have been, and probably always will be. I think that I post better, more thought out responses than the vast majority of users on B.net. That is not an exceptional accomplishment but it is the truth. Now, what people seem to have a problem with is when people become condescending elitists. Now, I won't go as far to say that I've never been condescending to anyone on B.net, because Achilles would scoff in my face; however, I feel that I as many instances that you could find of me being condescending you'll find several times more instances of me being helpful. The same holds true for a variety of other "veteran normies". Do we get preferential treatment from the moderators? Yeah, we do. Because we've been around long enough to show that we can be afforded that leverage or leeway on rules that the random "normies" are not. The difference? We've proved that we've been trust-worthy for a longer amount of time.

Now, I'll say for example that I broke an rule recently, in this very forum. I bumped a thread. I bumped a thread fully knowing that it is against the rules. I apologized for doing such, because I was seeking an answer to a query, but I still knew that I was breaking a rule. And guess what. Despite all my years here at B.net, and despite all moderators I know and talk to...I received a little PM from the Soul. Could I really complain too much? Not really, because I knew the rule and I broke it. Now, I did contact that moderator to ensure that there were no misconceptions about why I broke the rule. Hells yeah I did. So me, the glorious BerserkerBarage, broke a rule and got a warning for it.

So much for preferential treatment...

~B.B.

  • 07.26.2007 3:04 PM PDT
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Posted by: elmicker
Stop discouraging it. I have an international monopoly on rose-tinted glasses.

Oh noez, you are derailing a thread that mentions derailing threads. The irony, it burns.

I'll be honest, this place really hasn't changed much in the past three years. Sure, add 2 million members, but it's the same damn place with the same damn threads.

  • 07.26.2007 3:05 PM PDT

Add the email above to your MSN to contact me with emergencies on the forum.

FOR CARNAGE, APPLY WITHIN
Marathon, Myth, and MORE (Under construction)

NO U! A Webcomic.
Mob Of Angry Peasants Chat

I'm a lot tougher on the Halo 3 Forum than I am on most of the other forums. It's not an arbitrary decision. This site gets more and more users every day. They're coming here to view information on Halo 3. That makes the Halo 3 forum the most obvious location for them to go. My job is to try my damndest to keep Bungie.net somewhat presentable. The most logical course of action for me is to do my duty towards the new members and try to keep the heavily trafficked forum as presentable as possible.

Since many members of Bungie.net who frequent that forum tend to lack the maturity of the members who frequent the Underground or Septagon forums, more posts are locked, more users are punished. I don't apologize for it. I'm locking threads and warning or even banning users for even talking about the EGM story before the issue comes out, I'm locking threads that are unreadable or off topic, and I'm banning users that seem to exist simply to cause misery to others.

The Halo 3 Forum is the first thing a new member sees nine times out of ten, and it's my job to keep it as nice as possible.

Off topic threads in the Septagon are extremely rare, and are usually not so off topic as to be distracting. Off topic threads in the Underground are likewise rare, and they are usually moved to appropriate forums.

Get over it, it's not elitism, it's simple maturity. People who act civilly get more privileges.

  • 07.26.2007 3:06 PM PDT
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  • Exalted Mythic Member
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Want to know more about me? Check out my Community Joes interview.

Trying something once will increace your chances of success, because you tried it. Try someting twice, and your chances increase yet again - seeing as you've done it. Try something a few thousand times, and your chances of success is exponentially increased; this increase would likely provide success every time

Sorry for the double post. I wouldn't let me post all of it, even though I still had 5 character =\

Posted by: The Kodemyster
There aren't any members who have more privileges than others...

I understand that. It just seems as though some members can get away with far more than others.
Posted by: Rainman89
I must say, since this is about the fortieth "the community will die" proclamation I have read, I have my doubts this one will be any different, and the community will soldier on.

That being said, perhaps it is just these threads that keep the community going. Once someone reads this, they start thinking about the issues it brings up, and might even act differently. So while I won't argue any points, or try to defend a side, I'll just leave with this little question...

Could this community keep lingering on if it weren't for people constantly trying to say it will die soon?

The community will always live on. My only concern is either for the better or the worse, I hope for the better.
Posted by: Kasai
1. No member gets more privileges than others, except for Theme Masters, who only are able to have a unique looking symbol.

2. You will not see very many people banned because they brought something off topic.

3. What in the world are you talking about? Yes there is a warning system, and yes the mods can lean back a little more. But oh well. I would you to name a few of these so called "Special members".

Try not to be so one sided. If you are to present a arguement to the community, show both sisdes.

I am both sided, this is basically just me speaking my mind to the community. And I am beginning to see that my worries of posting this have been realized.
Posted by: twinkiemaker
I dont see the same thing happening.

Even though people who have been here for awhile have developed some sort of comradarie, and in some cases, a respect for other members, it doesnt mean that the typical b.net user is above the law, so to speak.

I can joke with the mods or Achronos or whoever all I want, but beleive me when I tell you that I will still get blacklisted if I step over the line too far.

These forums are the same as anything else in life, if you look hard enough for flaws, you'll find them. These forums arent perfect, the community isnt perfect, Bungie isnt perfect, etc. What we do is try to take the bits and peices that we enjoy and leave the rest on the side.

Edit: This preferential treatment that you think you are observing is just veteran members who have been blacklisted enough to know what they can and can't get away with, in my opinion.

I understand that, hell anyone can joke around with Achronos, the mods, or whoever. Yet, again, it seems like some members can take it further. Twinkie, you know me, and many other members, everyone has had their fair share of bannings. Nobodies perfect.
Posted by: Achronos
I am quite frankly sick and tired of "elitism" arguments.

If you have a specific complaint, make it. Philosophical whining about how things aren't fair does not interest me.

Life isn't fair, and you don't have access to all the warnings, the short bans, the history of accounts, the private messages, etc.

So, again, I say if you have a specific incident, make the complaint to the appropriate master moderator or myself. Otherwise, stop whining about your perceptions. This forum is more concerned with "elitism" than any group I've ever seen, and in most cases it is just silly. Some people are just going to always be elitist, and the rest of us aren't. The elitists will be ignored as usual, so there really isn't a problem other than your perception of what's going on.

I do understand that life isn't fair, and I do as well understand that I do not have access to warning, bans, history of accounts, messages, all the groups, and all that jazz. And you do have a very good point with the elitist bit, they are, and will, be ignored to no end.
Posted by: SS_Zag1
Rokit, let's make this clear first, I have no delusions about who you're referring to and something you claim they've been doing recently. You think because they're 'chummy' with the moderators, they get away with things, act like a jerk, go around running threads right off the rails. Sorry, but that's down-right ridiculous. Obviously people who are better friends with the mods get some leniency on things, but that's pretty much human nature. You treat your friends slightly different than complete strangers.

The moderators are honest guys, nonetheless. When someone does something worth a blacklist, they see to it. I've seen good friends of moderators get blacklisted for posting leaked content and doing things they shouldn't be doing. The moderator was their friend, but they said "Sorry, rules are rules." We all know a good ex-mod who has been blacklisted at least once since he's been off mod-duty.

However, if you think the people you're referring to are getting away with activities they'd normally be blacklisted for, that's just silly. Making a humorous joke in a Septagon thread does not 'derail' the topic. The most derailing thing you could possibly do in such a situation is start an argument about whether or not the comment was derailing. We're all here to have fun, aren't we? Obviously you want to be serious about things when the situation requires it, but a bit of 'goofing off' and some humorous comments (See, many of us find the moderators' and other members' comments humorous, even if you think it's childish and silly) will not hurt the community.

Bungie has always had a bit of humor about it's community. I'd hate to see that die because someone decided that it was too childish and not strict enough.

I understand that some people are friends with the mods, myself included, but again, this is not a direct nor indirect topic towards the mods, this is a topic towards the community. You are correct, I am a serious man, and I too do need a little bit of goofing around once in a while. But derailing a topic is no excuse. To goof around, all you need is a group of friends in a chapter. Then you can goof around all you want.

I am not speaking about a minor joke derailing a topic. I am talking about the entire topic, changing topic. A few that you and I were in, for example. The guy asked for help on a gamertag change. White Raven and myself answered it, then you changed the topic all together. No, this example is not a direct attack at you, but the problem is, is that I see this all the time around the entire community.
Posted by: Achronos
Oh, and by the way, of course the Septagon users are more trusted than the Halo 3 forum. Have you SEEN the Halo 3 forum? Notice how little spam there is in the Septagon forum? And when there is spam, it is almost always from someone who isn't a regular to this forum.

That means that the Septagon regulars have earned the freedom to not always be on topic, to stretch the rules a bit. The Halo 3 forum, on the other hand, is regularly spammed by its own regulars, making stupid posts, flamewars, etc. Many of those regulars behave like small children, and thus will be treated as such until they figure out that kind of behavior isn't tolerated.

You don't get to define the community. It defines itself. I suggest you step out of your fantasy world. Everyhting is not equal. The same standards do not apply to each forum, because the sub-community around each is different. Suggesting otherwise ignores the reality of the community as it has defined itself.

I have, indeed, seen the Halo 3 Forum. And I do understand that the Septagon does, and should, have far more trust then the Halo 3 Forum due to the differences. Yet, I still don't believe the rules should be so stretched. I do admit, the Septagon is very laid back, and it is a great place to hang out. It just seems like things could be stricter here and there. Not everywhere of course, but just a small bit.

  • 07.26.2007 3:11 PM PDT
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  • Exalted Mythic Member
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Want to know more about me? Check out my Community Joes interview.

Trying something once will increace your chances of success, because you tried it. Try someting twice, and your chances increase yet again - seeing as you've done it. Try something a few thousand times, and your chances of success is exponentially increased; this increase would likely provide success every time

Posted by: Halifax
Mm...Achronos losing his cool. Me likey.

I've come to a distinc realization over my time here on the Forums...it's a Forum. If you expect people to behave in a polite rational manner, look at your deep and insightful words, and try and make a change for the better, then you obviously don't understand the purpose of a Forum. Sure we're a community, but we're a community of words and themed pictures! Do you honestly think people care that you--one person in the vast space of the interweb--are sick of elitism?

There's a reason the girl threads, movie threads and game threads all get hundreds of posts while a thread like this is lucky to make it past the first page. People don't come to a Forum for pretty speeches and petty politics. They came for a place to say what they want without getting punched in the face, to give their input and not care if someone disagrees. To t1p3 l1k3 t41s...I suck at that. What I'm saying is, you're talking like you want to form some coalition or rebellion when really...it's just a Forum! You can complain about the Mods, the Overlord, or Bungie itself...but it doesn't matter, because you're just words on a screen.

I do, and I always will agree with you on this Halifax. This is what I tell many people, this is all just text. But just because it is text, doesn't mean we can't strive to make the community a better place to hang out. Sure, stricter may not be better, and maybe that is where I hit a dead end. I appreciate the slap in the face, I really do. Because now, I see what I used to see. I guess I've just been too easily annoyed as of late.

Sorry I didn't get to everyone. I tried, but I don't have room. I do see now, thanks to Halifax's post of what I do believe in; and what I 'preach' to others. That this is just a forum. And that I have been getting far too agitated as of late. Time for a break for a couple weeks. Clear my head a bit. At least everyone got a bit more active due to this =D. This can be locked now if any of you wish, I had my venting time. =), be seeing you all later.

  • 07.26.2007 3:12 PM PDT

blahoogana (bluh·hoo·gan·uh), noun - er, just call me Josh.

BP | B.me

How could anyone possibly compare the Septagon to the Halo 3 Forum? Of course we have more trust! You hardly see one bit of spam here. Suck it up.

-Blahoo

  • 07.26.2007 3:14 PM PDT

Here's a fact of life. It's good for pretty much any situation.

All men/women/animals/whatever are not created equal.

Some people are smarter than others.
Some people are generally more well behaved than others.
Some people are overall better than other people.


These are all facts. You can't just say "Well, because other people don't know how to behave and act and follow rules, the ones who do follow rules and know how to behave should get harsh punishments and little to no leniency as well." It doesn't make sense. Why should the well behaved members of the Community be treated with the same harshness as misbehaved members of the Community? They shouldn't.


Edit: Meh. I don't really like the way I came across in this post. I'm not trying to be mean or anything, but whatever. It's not as if the Septagon Frequents are shunning new people away based solely on the fact that they're new. The Septagonians are always welcoming and willing to let someone else into their hearts. I'll only consider elitism a problem until we distribute propaganda on the streets in the form of little red books telling the world how much better we are than other forums. But, I don't see that happening.

[Edited on 07.26.2007 3:22 PM PDT]

  • 07.26.2007 3:15 PM PDT
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Destinypedia - The Wiki for Bungie's Destiny
Posted by: DEATHPIMP72
Anyone but Foman. He smells like cheese.

Everything that needs to be said has been said. The only thing that I would add here is a reminder to the people who toss around the word "elitism" all the time. I am tired of seeing this word both misused and abused.

Here in the Septagon, this word has taken on the same form and function as yelling "sexist" at someone who says that men can run faster than women. It is a way of shutting somebody up or crushing an idea through name-calling rather than debating the merits of an issue.

Elitism

To start, it is important to define the word "elitism" and then, even more importantly, to analyze its meaning. Elitism is the belief that, because of a certain ability, trait, or possession, that a certain group of people is more entitled to lead or govern, or that their opinions and views should be accorded more weight. This fact does not necessarily synonymize with inequality.

Clearly, in some cases, elitism is a good thing and has a long and outstanding record in human history. Traditionally, the strongest warriors were their militia's or military's leaders because of their ability to protect and lead. The most intelligent politicians are seen as more fit to govern their lands. The most articulate and well-spoken debaters are given weight for their opinions. These simple facts are what has led to various societies flourishing and prospering.

When elitism is bad is when the trait or ability that is accorded weight is unrelated to the ability to lead/govern or the weight of the speaker's opinion. For example, if I were to say that persons with brown eyes should be accorded more deference in their opinions than persons with blue eyes, that would be a clear example of malevolent and destructive elitism of the type that should be abhorred and eschewed, no matter whether here in the forums or out in the "real world."

Relating it back to B.Net

But such destructive elitism is not the case here. I see nobody whose opinion is given more or less weight based on anything except the merits of their post. In other forums (Halo 3 Forum, of course, and sometimes the Flood), occasionally moderators or Bungie staff are accorded more weight for their opinions merely because of the color of their text or status on this site. That is a fact of life, and I don't think it's necessarily an awful thing. These are people who -- respectively -- have earned the trust and respect of Bungie, or ARE Bungie for all intents and purposes. I don't see it as unfair or wrong that, when posting in a Bungie forum, they get more leeway.

But here in the Septagon, nobody is automatically given deference. You must prove yourself purely by the words that you write. It is such a great thing, and you can see people (I am sometimes guilty of this) changing their writing style, tone, and content when they post in this forum as opposed to others. Posting without thinking is taboo here, and so is blind worship or deference based on anything other than the merits of a post's substantive content.

In this way, the unfair treatment of which you complain does not go to the definition of "elitism" at all. It merely becomes an accusation that moderators treat their friends differently than the masses. Yet you provide no evidence.

But even if this were true, is it really so shocking? Aren't you a lot more likely to let your friend call you a dirty name without any repercussions than to allow some random stranger off the street to do it? And if you're the captain of a sports team (I tried to use an analogy that most readers can relate to) and you trust somebody on your team, aren't you more likely to let them get away with missing a practice than some freshman who you don't know?

Such "preferential treatment" is prevalent throughout our society and often with beneficial effects. An airline is more likely to upgrade a loyal passenger to first class than someone who is flying for the first time. A restaurant owner is a lot more likely to give a free dessert to a customer who comes in all the time. A hotel in Las Vegas is more likely to allow a friend of the owner to throw a loud party late at night.

Such things are hardly "killing" our society, and nobody in their right mind really claims that they do. People who rigidly enforce rules on minor infractions against people who are otherwise trustworthy are seen has having no common sense and being general a-holes.

In this same way, a trusted user can be allowed to take threads a little off-topic in certain situations because they have earned the freedom to do so.

Conclusion

It becomes time to face a simple truth. Despite the lofty ideals engraved in the Declaration of Independence, all people are not equal in all ways. A lot of the problems with the trustworthiness of our Halo 3 regulars can and WILL be cured with age and maturity. Some users will never be cured.

Any law school professor will tell you that not all rules can or SHOULD be enforced rigidly across the board. Ideally, all laws would be enforced on a case-by-case basis, but such is not always possible (example: some drivers are perfectly safe drivers at higher speeds, but there is no way to evaluate every driver's maximum speed, so a uniform speed limit is set). But in cases where laws (or rules) can be flexibly applied, this country's most intelligent and experienced decision-makers and judges do their best to evaluate each person's capabilities and merits.

The b.net forums are a microcosm of this concept, and it becomes time to accept that not all forums are alike. There is no need to rehash why minor rule infractions are more allowable in the Septagon than in the Halo 3 forum. Others have said it just as well and there is no need for repeat.

But please stop using the term "elitism" as a way to buckle others into submission. It is no longer a way to make others feel like they are being politically incorrect if they say that some users deserve superior treatment. And accusing the moderators of acting improperly if they are more lenient with those whom they trust is not only inflammatory, but probably massively hypocritical for all but the most rigidly stiff chumps out there.

Damn it all if some users on this site have not earned the right to take the occassional thread off-topic without having to defend themselves.

I strongly disagree with any such notion, and strongly disagree with the use of the term "elitism" under these circumstances.

  • 07.26.2007 3:27 PM PDT

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