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Subject: The community is killing itself.

You say tomato; I say potato.

Posted by: VII Toast
Ha. Of course the 'community' is killing itself. It's been killing itself for years now, probably longer. The only reason the entire thing is still around is because Bungie is a multi-million dollar company that can handle the costs of a simple website. Because of this, the 'community' has a sense of immortality to it. Until Bungie and/or Microsoft goes down, this site shall remain. Like I said, the 'community' is of course killing itself, it's been bleeding for a very very long time. But it won't completely die. It can't be killed.

Moderator privileges are indeed abundant, and many do get special favors. I'll admit to that, because I used to do it myself. Most of the current moderators right now got to be that way because they suckered up to the previous generation. For example, I insisted that Ghandi 2 and TGP become a moderator and, guess what? Blam, as they say. Nos helped out Sketchfactor in World of Warcraft and became a mod. Probably ran Sketch through Black Temple to become a Master Ninja as well. Pffht.

Seems good ole' Tommy G still has his entire "hard ass" mantra down put. Hehehe.
The only difference between you and the other moderators was that I've only seen you abuse your power.

  • 07.26.2007 8:59 PM PDT

SB-117

Posted by: UL7IM4 G33K
I understand your point ash, but I feel a middle ground is there. Rather than banning or just pming silently, just post in the thread with a warning. It makes an example and a reminder of what the rules are, without being too harsh. That is my method for moderation. If the topic gets too off topic, I will PM the ones responsible with another warning, and then close the topic. If there are repeated situations by the same user(s), then i move to bans, or even just simple limitations of powers (read only, no post count increase, removal of avatar/signature powers, etc).

I'm not sure you do understand my point.

I'm not discussing whether harsh punishments are good or bad. I'm saying that the more chaotic forums and times will require more drastic moderation... always.

This is off topic but... Would you like moderators to post: "Ok, you've been caught now, any more spam FROM THIS POINT ON will result in a ban"? What kind of impression will that give? If something stupid pops up, all users can spam wildly, but once a moderator shows up, the fun is over? No, that doesn't work. If you break a rule before a moderator notices the thread, you're still breaking a rule, and you will still be warned/banned for it. But that's not really on-topic for this thread (so if you wish to discuss leniancy, please send me a PM).

  • 07.26.2007 9:03 PM PDT
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The greatest trick the devil ever played was covincing the world he didn't exist!!!

U will never catch me !!!!

I have been a long time viewer of the forums on B.net and can honestly say the forums seem to be doing just fine. Most of the forums are laid back, fun to read and manage successfully. Ofcourse there are hiccups along the way, i mean the halo 3 forum isnt in tip top order. The point is that the Mods control them the best they can and do what the must do in order to keep some form of readable forum instead of a load of fruitless posts. The truth of the matter is that there will always be off topic threads and stupid links, but what do you expect with such a larger fan base and such a wide age range.

Overall it is us the B.net users who make up the community and we must help keep it a fun place to be. Honestly i don't see much point in compaing about the state of the community. We should simple let things go and do are best to help and do are best not to encourage some of the lower I.Q users who are uncontrollably compelled to post nonsense such as off topic posts and links to shameful songs.

---Crunx---

  • 07.26.2007 9:09 PM PDT

Inside the Mind of Halotitan Help me get expand my mind.

If two people were working for a major corporation:

Employee 1: Is always on time, has hardly missed any work at all, and contributes his/her ideas in a professional manner.
Employee 2: Is late most of time, tries to find any reason to miss work, and doesn't contribute much of his/her opinion unless it’s a pointless idea or an idea that has been presented many times before.

Do you think it would be fair if they were both treated the same way regardless how productive one is and how unproductive the other is. If both Employees show up 10 minutes late for work one day, the manager may only come down on Employee 2 because this is a repeated habit where as Employee 1 is very trusted and has made a simple mistake that can be forgiven.

The Halo 3 forum is out of control, I don’t post there because I cannot state my opinion on ANYTHING without getting my head chopped off. However, I find posting and getting along with others satisfactory in other forums such as the flood or this one. So I'm going to side with Achronos on this, sorry.

  • 07.26.2007 9:14 PM PDT

-§kipper

Any type of community has some form of corruption. I believe toast with what he said, you simply can't help having friends and letting them have more slack then others. Hell if toast wasn't any of the moderators friends he would of been out of there sooner I would bet. I respect a lot of the mods, but some of them are mods for the wrong reasons, or became mods because they were friends with certain people. The forums are fine in my opinion, I have long accepted them since I bashed them for the community not being like the "old" b.net, but I have also accepted that certain things happen and people act certain ways that I don't agree with. But for all I know I could be right or wrong, I only know my opinion and can make observations, and I could be making a bad observation.

And for people complaining about the Halo 3 forums, does any one who has been here for a long time remember when Halo 2 was close to release and such? Many people complained about the same thing, including me. But here the forums and the community still stands.

[Edited on 07.26.2007 9:28 PM PDT]

  • 07.26.2007 9:21 PM PDT

.||./

My gamertag is SHADOWRIDERJP.

I don't see it as a problem. The septagon is more of a relaxed forum. Sure people that are trusted have more trust. I see it abused sometimes. It is very rare though and I don't see it as a major problem if it is one at all. If a post here goes off-topic it is usually a joke. I like jokes. Although, if a user is always de-railing topics with something more serious than a bungie related joke they should be dealt with how a mod sees fit. I am guilty of cracking a joke here and there. I try to stay on topic with it though. A serious post with a joke FTW!

Can't we all just ride on our Walrus and get along.

  • 07.26.2007 9:29 PM PDT
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Hmm... While you make SOME valid point... If you look at forums like this in the Halo 3 forum, you can clearly see why they crack down on people in that forum.

  • 07.26.2007 9:30 PM PDT
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Join KOTOR!

I intend to live forever, or die trying.

I think this can all be sumed up in a few words: You have no rights here on B.net play nice : )

  • 07.26.2007 9:41 PM PDT

Proof there is a God.
My RT account page.
My Grifball user page.
So if you really want to get to know me, you're welcome to add me anywhere.

I don't see this community EVER "dying."

There's methods and precautions in place to prevent the forums from, so-called, "dying." You can't "kill" a community. If things ever got out of hand, the moderators would pull up the slack like they have in the Halo 3 forum. They have everything under control.


Besides saying that, everyone else already said anything worth mentioning.

  • 07.26.2007 9:57 PM PDT

Add the email above to your MSN to contact me with emergencies on the forum.

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Posted by: VII Toast
Posted by: gnome13
The only difference between you and the other moderators was that I've only seen you abuse your power.
Irrelevant to the current conversation, but a big "thanks" to you for pointing that out.

It has nothing to do with elitism. Or, at least I wasn't doing it for that reason. The site got dull, something needed to flair it up. ;D


You could have "flaired it up" by doing something for the community, not by becoming a common troll. Now everything you have to say needs to be taken with a grain of salt. It's true that we are asked for opinions on members when the need arises, but that's about the extent of it. Nos was not picked to moderate simply because he played a game with a couple employees, plenty of other people played with them that weren't magically made into moderators. His attitude matched up. He's also done work for the community, him and I spent close to $1000 of our own money calling places to set up locations for potential East Coast Fan run Fan fests, drafted letters, and meanwhile tried to get the community involved with it. I tried to jumpstart a newsletter for the community, renting server space. It's still here, but very slow because of the lack of community input. Well, the community has it's issues, but while some of us try to help out the community, some of us abuse our power, or pretend to be dead over MSN.

You were picked as a moderator because of your earlier attitude towards the community, the website with the old Bungie games, and all that, then you turned into a real jerk.

Good day to you sir, I think I'll try to listen to people who may actually have a real concern about the community.

  • 07.26.2007 10:17 PM PDT

"Science without religion is lame. Religion without science is blind." - Albert Einstien

Jim, Im up for anything you might want in your newsletter.

Anyways. It is the self destructive nature of any mass number of people. It is just the way it is. There are always problems becuase there are so many people to either cause or find them. Most of my forum moderation/admin experience is with 10,000 member or less forums. This is way out of my league, which is why most of my solutions to help make the forum more interesting and user freindly fail.

Individuals cannot do crap in such a large quantity of people unless they are absolutely devoted to changing things and go out of their way to make it happen.

[Edited on 07.26.2007 10:22 PM PDT]

  • 07.26.2007 10:19 PM PDT

I'm a ninja

Posted by: Live killa
Any type of community has some form of corruption. I believe toast with what he said, you simply can't help having friends and letting them have more slack then others. Hell if toast wasn't any of the moderators friends he would of been out of there sooner I would bet. I respect a lot of the mods, but some of them are mods for the wrong reasons, or became mods because they were friends with certain people. The forums are fine in my opinion, I have long accepted them since I bashed them for the community not being like the "old" b.net, but I have also accepted that certain things happen and people act certain ways that I don't agree with. But for all I know I could be right or wrong, I only know my opinion and can make observations, and I could be making a bad observation.

And for people complaining about the Halo 3 forums, does any one who has been here for a long time remember when Halo 2 was close to release and such? Many people complained about the same thing, including me. But here the forums and the community still stands.

OH SHI-
I didn't know you posted on b.net. >_>

  • 07.26.2007 10:27 PM PDT
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On the whole moderator note...

I will take a quote from a well-known movie "With great power comes great responsibility." I believe our mods have fulfilled that and do judge useless posts fair, according to what forum they are in. This is not about our mods though. It is more of the community not reading the rules, or not paying attention to what forum they are in.

Although I agree with what you have said Toast, TGP does have a very good point.

  • 07.26.2007 10:39 PM PDT
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I've seen these sorts of threads on just about every forum I've been on. "The mods/admins are unfair!" "The community is elitist!" "Veteran members are given better treatment!"

Frankly, I find it pretty silly. This isn't a situation where this level of concern is warranted. Don't get me wrong, I like the Bungie community a lot--but this is still just a forum. It's a text-based method for social exchange. For some reason, on every forum I go to, eventually someone starts talking revolution, as if the works of the moderators and administrators are so bad, that a change needs to take place at the higher level to ensure... what, I'm not sure.

Now, maybe I'm just a more mellow person than most, or maybe being around to see the early days of the internet has made me a bit more appreciative of the near-miracle that is world-wide instant communication. However you choose to look at it, I'm just generally glad to be here. I don't require perfection. As long as those in control keep the place running, awesome. I'm certainly not going to hold volunteer moderators to any standard similar to what I'd hold government officials to. Nepotism, unfair treatment, elitism--whatever the problem is, real or not, I'll accept that things aren't always going to be perfect.

This is a forum community. It's a place to hang out with people who share a similar hobby with you. Don't make it something more serious than that, please.

  • 07.26.2007 11:03 PM PDT

This forum is for the community. In my opinion it is a little harder to go off topic in here than in any other forum, except maybe The Flood...but that is all it is. Unless of course you are talking about stuff that should be moved to the proper forum.

With that being said, I would like to thank all the ninjas that have posted,Achronos for gracing us with his presence, and special guest Foman from CI.(and anyone else that is a moderator from a forum that posted that I didn't recognize)

All these people know the rules better than anyone and you should take them at their word. They are the ones that have to deal with the off topic's, the spammer's, the horrendus rick roll, and objection things. Everyone else in the forums, don't have to pay any attention to that stuff. We make the choice to read what we read and type what we type.

Let the moderators handle the rules and any changes that THEY see fit. The rest of us should just enjoy reading and discussing. Not worring about how the moderators do their job.

  • 07.26.2007 11:13 PM PDT
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Destinypedia - The Wiki for Bungie's Destiny
Posted by: DEATHPIMP72
Anyone but Foman. He smells like cheese.

Posted by: je110
I've seen these sorts of threads on just about every forum I've been on. "The mods/admins are unfair!" "The community is elitist!" "Veteran members are given better treatment!"

Frankly, I find it pretty silly.

This is a forum community. It's a place to hang out with people who share a similar hobby with you. Don't make it something more serious than that, please.

With all due respect, je110, I disagree with a lot of your post.

I have no problem with you taking this place lightly. I think most of us realize that this site is merely a place for social interaction and that the vast, vast, vast majority of people who come here are doing so to be passive observers or to merely ask questions or mess around rather than positively contribute. But asking b.net's most regular users not to voice their concerns about this Community -- especially in a thread filled with Septagon regulars -- is both hypocritical and destructive.

It is hypocritical because at the same time that you ask us not to take this place any more seriously than you, you purport to tell everyone else how they should view it. Nobody in this thread has stated that casual users like yourself who only post a few times a week should be "taking the Community more seriously." Yet you come to a forum where most of the "regulars" have thousands or tens of thousands of posts in the public forums and countless more in private groups, as well as numerous Community projects such as forum moderating and other projects, and tell them not to take this place seriously. You tell users who have been an integral part of this Community for years and long before Halo that they should simply let the Community go in whatever direction it is going to go. I see this as hypocrisy.

But worse is the destructiveness of such a suggestion, were a "community regular" to follow it. This Community is a fun place to hang out and socialize for casual forumgoers like yourself precisely because of the dedicated efforts of the Community. Aside from Achronos and a small, sporadic, and inconsistent handful of other Bungie employees, the Bungie Community is shaped and run by fans. Do you really think that this place is fun because of the 15-year-old casual gamer who drops in and says "check out this brand new Haloid video I just found"? I certainly hope not.

This Community is built upon the efforts of dedicated fans who genuinely care about it and take it very seriously. This place is not fun because of the casual lurker or frantic, rulebreaking, infrequently posting child. This Community is vibrant, alive, and fun for both dedicated and casual Bungie fans because of people like the "Regulars" of this forum, who log in and post daily. People like the staff of the Bathroom Reader. Moderators who are volunteers and endure a gauntlet of criticism and harassing PMs every day for little reward except the ability to clean up the public forums here. Writers like MLG Cheehwawa who endure as much sarcastic flaming as praise for the detailed ideas that they post every day. Theorists like opogjijip and Lord Snakie who spend weeks and months thinking up, supporting, writing, and arguing for the merits of their theories. Community project leaders like BL4H00G4N4, who started Bungiepedia, or Gods Prophet and Snowmanaxt, who started the Guide, or SS_Zag1, Prometheus25, ash55, and Zee JollyRoger, who wrote and maintain the silly-but-addicting "Pimps at Sea RPG." Webmasters like MaimumFEAR and Louis Wu and many, many others who dedicate all of their free time to running popular fan sites. Fan artists like Jean Luc Fortier, just another fan, and Phil Benji. The people who dedicate time and effort to helping out new forum users with links, advice, suggestions, and tips. Even (I grudginly admit -- jk) some of the Floodians.

These people who create the resources, diversions, and answers that casual "Bungie drop-ins" use on such a regular basis are the pillars upon which the Seventh Column rests, and I can assure you that they do not view this Community as merely a "place to hang out with people who share a similar hobby." It is something more than that, and although it has probably not completely taken over any volunteer's life at this point, it is perfectly valid for them to voice their concerns about the Community and the way that other Community Regulars treat it, regardless of whether they are correct or not.

Argue the merits of the post, most certainly. I know I did, and I disagreed with them. But I would never tell Rokit to take this place less seriously. To do so is to ask him and any other reader of your post to become one of the random, faceless people who pretty much stick to the Halo 3 forum and the Flood Forum and passively read other posts, incorrectly post without reading rules or paying attention to etiquette, or purposely cause ruckus and mayhem here.

To encourage this, in my opinion, is to truly advocate for the real "death" of this Community. So now it becomes my turn to ask you, for the good of all of us, to please stop.

P.S.
This has nothing to do with me not being a "mellow" person. I am almost certainly older than you and I do remember the days before the internet. Before even AOL and Prodigy (for those of you who even know that that is) were around, I was dialing into BBSs on my 400-baud modem and interacting in forums not so different from this one. But that does not mean that I am obligated to take a Community lightly, purely by reason of the fact that I remember when the "internet" did not even exist except as a few bland text-only University and government websites.

  • 07.27.2007 12:26 AM PDT
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Well, in my view: rules are rules, and they have to be followed. I'm glad the majority of us are sheep and follow the Code of Conduct, Terms of Use etc as they are meant to be. Unfortunately, however, there are goats (a minority of them) who insist on breaking away from the herd and becoming their own "master" if you will. These people think they can do what they want, say what they want, and get away with it.
I must agree, Freedom of Speech cannot be allowed here. That's not to say you will never be able to express your opinion and views, but of course, there are topics and subjects that just can't be allowed eg. Politics, Religion, Illegal activities etc, because they just result in arguments and slander between members. One person disagrees with another and they slag them off repeatedly. That can't be allowed.

When you register on the site with your Hotmail Passport, you are prompted with a Terms and Conditions bill stating that you agree to the rules and regulations. You accept that you agree to follow them, and you're registered with the site. Yet people blatantly ignore the thing and think it's just some hurdle they have to jump "to get to the fun stuff."
It's like installing a program on your computer. You agree to the Terms that you wont do any unauthorized copying or distribution of the software, yet people continually do it. It's why piracy is so widely spread.

I also think it's good if members who have been on the site for a long time, who are decent in the rule following, point out to newcomers what and what not is allowed, where threads go etc etc. I think we sometimes just think, "I'll just leave it to the Moderators. I'll let them deal with it," but the reality of it is that there are more Non-Moderators (Members) than Moderators. We could at least make the Moderators' job a bit easier and guide people who are new to the site where they are supposed to go to post their Topic, instead of instantly posting, "OMG! You put this in the wrong place, idiot!" which is not helpful nor constructive.

Regarding Moderators. Their job is not to be "Elite" over everyone else, that's a common misconception. Their job is simply to instil order in the forums and make sure the rules are followed and everyone behaves like good little children. But if little Timmy misbehaves and turns into a prat, then he must be punished. That way, he'll (hopefully) learn not to do what he did next time.

  • 07.27.2007 2:15 AM PDT
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re: x Foman123 x

I should have been more clear, and chosen some better wording.

My disagreements with the points of the original post were addressed by others before I posted, so there was no need for me to voice my opinion on those. What my post was concerned with is the "finger wagging" mentality of the original post. The argument presented by the original post is based on an objective and quantifiable ideal of "fairness." I'll define the term, just to avoid confusion as much as possible. When I say "objective" or "quantifiable" fairness, I'm referring to a situation in which everyone is treated completely equally regardless of outside circumstances, except in defined instances met with specific, limited actions. This is something you would expect to see in a legal regard, having to do with public policy. It is not something that can be expected of a forum community. It's not an issue of expecting "less," but it's just a different environment. This is a place of social interaction, kept running by a group of moderators who work as volunteers because they care enough about the community to help work to make it run smoothly. As such, expecting the formal ideal of fairness is unreasonable--a forum community doesn't run on strictly enforced policy. The rules work in a forum setting as guidelines that are applied on a case by case basis rather than a universal code of conduct, the way the legal system works. The act of taking this unreasonable expectation, derived from a very different context, and suggesting it being implemented where it does not fit is irrational. I believe the word I used was silly.

When I say "it's just a place to hang out with people who share your hobby" (and addmittedly, that is an over-simplification in itself), or "don't take it so seriously" (or whatever I specifically said), it is not meant as a statement of value or importance of the forums, but rather a statement of comparative expectation. Again, the formal policies on fairness you expect to see from most public authority figures is not the same as what you should expect in a forum community. When I say "please don't take it so seriously," a better wording probably would have been "please, don't view the community so formally (by way of suggesting an imposed formal policy of objective fairness). Also, my final statement regarding being around before widespread internet usage was not meant as a comment of any sort of superiority. I'm not saying that everyone should just be happy with what they get and never strive for improvement or question problems. Rather, I'm saying that perhaps this perspective that is different from many here (or possibly my mellow nature, or something else; I'm not set on an explanation) allows me to more easily see the separation of objective fairness in a public policy setting and the concept of fairness as it applies to a forum community than someone who has grown up with this as a standard method of communication, and who that separation simply may not occur to.

I'll try to summarize the idea better than I did earlier. This is just a social community. "Just" meaning that it is a separate beast from any body that would be expected to enforce objective and quantifiable fairness. As such, expecting that from the community is unreasonable.

  • 07.27.2007 2:57 AM PDT
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Posted by: VII Toast
Most of the current moderators right now got to be that way because they suckered up to the previous generation. For example, I insisted that Ghandi 2 and TGP become a moderator and, guess what? Blam, as they say.

Except that we both became mods at the same time, so what you say is impossible. Stop giving yourself so much credit.

-TGP-

  • 07.27.2007 3:34 AM PDT

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I'm not about to flesh out some sort of argument that runs parallel to the thought of, "The end is nigh" sort of thinking. But, a moderator has their own subjective position. What could be offensive or a gross act of idiocy on the part of one who posts at one time, may be someone acceptable, nay, dare I say approved at another. That's the flexibility of being in a forum, there is no absolute point of view.

Posted by: Capt Molo
I think this can all be sumed up in a few words: You have no rights here on B.net play nice : )


However, one could always also fall back on the thought that its a privilege to be here, not a right. So just like life, I suppose, don't be afraid to speak your mind, but don't go out of your way to anger or offend people, and if you do, try and be humble. That never hurts.

  • 07.27.2007 5:17 AM PDT

Good, bad, I'm the guy with the clichéd lines.

I'm pretty new to Bnet and I mainly go to the Halo 3 forum. I visit the forum almost every day. When I first joined I made some spam threads. Although usually I don't make threads. I don't try to find out information hardcore like other people so I generally run under the assumption that if I hear about something it's already been posted 5 times on the forums.

I think the Halo 3 forum is fine. It's just got some spam in it is all. Honestly I consider the Halo 3 forum to be rather mild compared to other forums I've been to. Yeah there's some flaming but it's usually on spam threads or repeat threads.

I can understand being stricter in one forum but not in another. But that will punish people who aren't the spammers or flammers. I usually try to remain on topic (unless someone has a question pertaining to anything then I try to answer it if I can) but I do make the occasional joke reply. To kind of, keep things less serious. I haven't been warned for any of that yet which is cool. I did get warned once though for posting in a spam thread. I'm not defending what I did, but I've seen tons of people posting in spam threads with no moderator comment and just a close, leading me to believe that moderators only close spam threads and don't take action on any posters in the thread. Sure, saying "if anyone posts I'll warn you" is just the teacher saying to knock it off or get detention, but you could always do both. You could post in the thread AND warn people. Say something like "Stop posting spam. You've all been warned." That way people know that moderators mean serious business and know not to because they know they'll be warned. I think taking a PM-only approach won't help as much as letting the whole community know when someone was warned. Because even though there are rules people that first join don't know exactly how they can bend the rules, as many forums (in general, on the interwebs, at least the ones I've been to) have moderators that are lenient at times. And so without letting people know by making an example of a thread then the only way they can know is by continually bending the rules until they get a PM telling them to knock it off. You wouldn't have to make example threads all the time, but the occasional one I think is needed just to let the whole community know so instead of one person knowing many people do.

[Edited on 07.27.2007 5:20 AM PDT]

  • 07.27.2007 5:17 AM PDT
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The End

‘The conscious is cancerous if allowed to linger’

"Even if you're on the right track, you'll get run over if you just sit there."

Posted by: Achronos
Oh, and by the way, of course the Septagon users are more trusted than the Halo 3 forum. Have you SEEN the Halo 3 forum? Notice how little spam there is in the Septagon forum? And when there is spam, it is almost always from someone who isn't a regular to this forum.

That means that the Septagon regulars have earned the freedom to not always be on topic, to stretch the rules a bit. The Halo 3 forum, on the other hand, is regularly spammed by its own regulars, making stupid posts, flamewars, etc. Many of those regulars behave like small children, and thus will be treated as such until they figure out that kind of behavior isn't tolerated.

You don't get to define the community. It defines itself. I suggest you step out of your fantasy world. Everyhting is not equal. The same standards do not apply to each forum, because the sub-community around each is different. Suggesting otherwise ignores the reality of the community as it has defined itself.
Achronos you just summed up why I prefer the community forum above all others. The Septagon is not a polluted, corrupted mess like the Halo 3 forum portrays. If the Halo 3 forum was deleted I wouldn't give two hoots, the Septagon though has a strong band of logical, influential members. I have noticed spammers rarely target the Septagon, perhaps because they fear they will be out smarted and embarrassed lol!

~TOM T 117

[Edited on 07.27.2007 5:34 AM PDT]

  • 07.27.2007 5:33 AM PDT

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