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Subject: Hmmz
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I'm annoyed at how many flammers there are on this site. So many people who just come here to inspire conflict in threads, put people down, a lot of -blam!-ing and stuff. I don't know, maybe they fail at life and get pissed on all the time, so they come here to do it back?

I think it needs to be sorted.... bungie will end up a community of angrys =(
If it hasn't already.

[Edited on 07.30.2007 6:00 AM PDT]

  • 07.30.2007 5:58 AM PDT
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Sometimes people miss interprets posts.

Sometimes people assume/or think that a person is being mean to them when they are just stating something. It isn't being negative at all unless you think of it that way.

Also another thing is people do not understand the difference between flaming and arguing. Arguing is actually part of a discussion while stating your reason in an agressive way.

Therefore, you take these 2 things out and you are left with a small group of flamers.

[Edited on 07.30.2007 6:18 AM PDT]

  • 07.30.2007 6:17 AM PDT
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Destinypedia - The Wiki for Bungie's Destiny
Posted by: DEATHPIMP72
Anyone but Foman. He smells like cheese.

A problem -- perhaps the BIGGEST problem -- is that new members see the flames and get the wrong impression.

New members join up here because they are excited about Halo 3. It is rare that a new member's first few posts are "bad posts," even if they are old news or simply excited gushing about Halo 3. Unfortunately, when they stick around and read a few threads, they see the flamers and spammers and think to themselves, "Gosh, those guys are funny."

Links to youfail sites and "so-and-so just got own'd" sites are admittedly amusing the first one or two times you see them. So are original insults (which, after being here awhile, you realize usually turn out not to be so original). Moreover, when everyone piles on, it often becomes a competition to see who can be the most insulting or obnoxious. New members see this behavior and, unsurprisingly, begin to emulate it.

Sadly, a lot of the time, these new users never see the consequences of flaming until it happens to them. A user who responds in a thread with a flame or spam and is subsequently banned suddenly disappears from the thread as if they never existed. Unless a new user is constantly refreshing the same thread, they do not know how, what, or why this happened.

Enforcement of the rules is necessarily inconsistent, however, depending on the number and nature of the moderators online. Thus flames and spam are still frequently visible on the forum. This leads to a snowball effect as more users join up every day and find themselves amused and thinking that this is the culture of the Halo 3 forum.

Of course, it's very easy to point out problems with something, and much harder to point out a solution that works. So rather than be one of those who merely complains without proposing a solution, I will propose a very simple solution, just for starters.

Currently, a blacklisted user's entire post disappears from the forum as if they had never posted, unless they were the thread creator. If they are the thread creator, the following message appears instead of his or her original post: "Moderator Notice: This user has been blacklisted from this forum. Until the user is removed from the blacklist, all posts this user has made have been hidden, and all topics created by this user have been censored."

Why not have a similar message for ALL blacklisted posts rather than hiding them from the forum? This would alert other users that punishments are being doled out, rather than hiding them from the forum as if bungie.net is embarrassed to have punished a bad post.

Admittedly, this is a simplistic solution, but could be made more comprehensive. Users would know that certain posts are not tolerated if moderators had a simple "drop down" menu on their unleash ninjas menu that allowed them to choose from a simple list for the reason for the warning or blacklisting --

-Spam
-Excessive Flaming
-Illegal link
-Violation of Terms of Use
-Violation of Code of Conduct
-Other

The "other" would encompass things like impersonation of moderators, use of the "n" word, racist or political discussion, quote pyramids, and so on.

Instead of the replier's post disappearing from the forum like it never happened, a member viewing the thread would see the user's name and avatar (same as a blacklisted thread creator) and the following message: "Moderator Notice: This user has been blacklisted from this forum for [Spam, Excessive Flaming, lllegal Link, etc.]. Until the user is removed from the blacklist, all posts this user has made have been hidden, and all topics created by this user have been censored.

Anyway, this has become yet another long Foman post, so I will stop now. But it was just a thought I had.... there IS too much flaming and spam on this forum, and I think that it is encouraged by the fact that it is already so prevalent (a self-feeding effect) and the fact that punishments are invisible and thus have no deterrent value.

[Edited on 07.30.2007 9:01 AM PDT]

  • 07.30.2007 8:58 AM PDT
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That is a great idea! I am up for support. If peoples posts were shown with the blacklisted message it may promote a positive idea on "You get what you deserve". It would make users realize the forums are a privaledge.

  • 07.30.2007 9:12 AM PDT

Fight hard, break bones >{o

you made good points but i think the big "read me" stickies that explain all the rules cleary should be enough. the reason the mods delete the post is to make it easier to move on. if there are 20 locked threads on the front page, people will make it worse by posting about them or not posting at all as there will be no topics to post on.

to this thread; most people arent smart enough to have an intelligent conversation much less any form of debate. thats why i like groups. in groups the forums are far more managable and there are rules in place that are easily enforced and the chance of some one making an alt to return to the conversation is very rare and fruitless. if you make any sort of flaw in your posts on the public forums, chances are some one will let you know (however rude they feel like doing so). this is becuase about 50 people see every post so chances are the nice guy will skip over your post and the a-hole will flame you to make themselves look smart (as in 'haha i know the rules, you dont IDIOT!)

[Edited on 07.30.2007 9:17 AM PDT]

  • 07.30.2007 9:15 AM PDT
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Posted by: DEATHPIMP72
Anyone but Foman. He smells like cheese.

Posted by: Sick Pimpin
you made good points but i think the big "read me" stickies that explain all the rules cleary should be enough. the reason the mods delete the post is to make it easier to move on. if there are 20 locked threads on the front page, people will make it worse by posting about them or not posting at all as there will be no topics to post on.

First, I'm not sure you quite understand how the blacklisting/locking process works. Moderators do not delete posts or threads except under the most dire of circumstances. A blacklisted user's post is hidden from member view, but not deleted. When the user is removed from the blacklist, the post is visible again.

Second, I am not sure how my idea would lead to more locked threads -- I do not think that it would. I also do not think that you really read my post very carefully at all. Can you explain what you are talking about?

Finally, the stickies at the top of the forum should be enough and are certainly adequate to provide notice, be it actual or constructive. But let's be realistic; most users never read them before posting. Do you read through your local state's statutes, case law, and regulations about public behavior before you walk out your front door? Of course not -- like most people, you simply go out and see how most other people are acting, no matter how easy the authorities make it for you to access the laws and rules. Instead, you base your behavior on those that you observe in the people around you and you avoid doing the things that you've seen other people get in trouble for. If everybody else was running around drunk and shooting guns in the air without any visible consequences, you might think it was okay to do that too, and would then perhaps be surprised if you were subsequently arrested.

Now imagine that instead of being publicly arrested and placed in jail and having their mugshot taken and name placed in the newspaper "police blotter," people who were running around drunk and shooting guns in the air were randomly sucked underground and just kind of disappeared from view, never to be heard from again? But not ALL people -- only some of them, and only when the police were actually around. You, having just walked outside, would have no idea that some of the people running around drunk were randomly sucked underground before you got there or in areas where you're not looking at the exact moment that it happens. So you have no idea that it is wrong to do it, since there are still plenty of drunken shooters around.

At any rate, the analogy can go on and on, but you get the picture.... public enforcement of rules has a deterrent effect on others, and I simply think that it could have its place here on the Bungie forums as well.

[Edited on 07.30.2007 9:44 AM PDT]

  • 07.30.2007 9:39 AM PDT

Sandswept Studios Design Director

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~~Pardon Our Dust.~~

Posted by: x Foman123 x
Instead of the replier's post disappearing from the forum like it never happened, a member viewing the thread would see the user's name and avatar (same as a blacklisted thread creator) and the following message: "Moderator Notice: This user has been blacklisted from this forum for [Spam, Excessive Flaming, lllegal Link, etc.]. Until the user is removed from the blacklist, all posts this user has made have been hidden, and all topics created by this user have been censored.

Eh, it's a good idea, in theory, but if you showed everyone's posts, the forum would get mighty busy with blacklisted users. It'd make the mods seem more deadly than they are now. While that could be a good thing, it'd break up the flow of conversation.

Anyway, this has become yet another long Foman post.

Gosh, I hate those.. >_>

:D

  • 07.30.2007 11:01 AM PDT

Fight hard, break bones >{o

First, I'm not sure you quite understand how the blacklisting/locking process works. Moderators do not delete posts or threads except under the most dire of circumstances. A blacklisted user's post is hidden from member view, but not deleted. When the user is removed from the blacklist, the post is visible again.i know how it works, by delete i meant just removed from view (i've been here far longer then you)

but you couldnt show peoples post becuase sometimes they have stuff (links, profanity, nasty stuff...) that is being banned becuase we dont want to see that stuff. and the mods already pm the person who breaks the rule and usually posts before locking it saying why. its just posting every time isnt always necessary especially when people do things that are obviously wrong. most people know the rules or other users let them know (like 'remove the link or your teh banzorz') and everything works out.

im running without sleep so i guess i messed up; instead of a bunch of locked threads it would be a bunch of wasted time telling everyone what the guy did wrong. i wouldnt mind if they put an auto-feature that showed the same reason the person who was BL'ed gets to see; inside the 'notice: user was blacklisted...' 'for:...'

but i dont think its really necessary or gonna make any difference. i really dont think anyone cares to learn. people who dont know but if they did know wouldnt break rules; usually dont break the rules in the first place. and those who do never get anything worse then their thread banned and it doesnt matter what you do; those people are too new and nothing can stop their mistakes. i think hiding the forums and suggesting new users to groups would be the most beneficial.

[Edited on 07.30.2007 11:35 AM PDT]

  • 07.30.2007 11:32 AM PDT
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Posted by: DEATHPIMP72
Anyone but Foman. He smells like cheese.

Posted by: SS_Zag1
Posted by: x Foman123 x
Instead of the replier's post disappearing from the forum like it never happened, a member viewing the thread would see the user's name and avatar (same as a blacklisted thread creator) and the following message: "Moderator Notice: This user has been blacklisted from this forum for [Spam, Excessive Flaming, lllegal Link, etc.]. Until the user is removed from the blacklist, all posts this user has made have been hidden, and all topics created by this user have been censored.

Eh, it's a good idea, in theory, but if you showed everyone's posts, the forum would get mighty busy with blacklisted users. It'd make the mods seem more deadly than they are now. While that could be a good thing, it'd break up the flow of conversation.

These are both good points, but to rebut them:

1) Your point about making the thread "busier" is an interesting one, but it assumes a couple of things. First, it assumes that a thread is already on-topic and not about to get locked. Second, it assumes that my plan would have no deterrent effect and that people would continue making bad posts at the same rate that they already do.

To rebut these assumptions in order: first, for bad threads that are about to be locked anyway, there is no problem with displaying all users who were blacklisted from the thread and the reasons for their blacklisting vis a vis a message similar to the one currently displayed for thread creators. Second, if this plan were to have the desired deterrent effect, such posts would eventually and hopefully become few and far between.

To create a culture of good posts, you have to do some heavy cleanup work in the beginning, in order to have to do minimal maintenance later.

2) You made an even better point about interrupting the flow of a conversation. This point, I'm sure, is the main reason that blacklisted users are currently hidden from the forum anyway. But this notion also makes a couple of assumptions. First, it assumes that a thread is already completely on-topic and progresses logically. Second, it assumes that the "bad post" has not already disrupted the flow before the moderator got there.

As we already know, and ESPECIALLY in the Septagon, even the most interesting threads contain numerous off-topic posts by trolls and just people who in general think that they're being funny. I have no trouble in following threads even so, and I don't think many people would. A blacklisting notice would both alert users that rules are taken seriously and allow bad posts to be removed from sight to avoid the inevitable "You're gonna get blacklisted" posts or similarly bad responses.

I think that this idea has some merit, although I'm perfectly willing to admit that it probably needs some tweaking.

  • 07.30.2007 12:20 PM PDT
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So... much... text.... ARGH! MY EYES!

Here's my plan to 'fix' B.net:
1) Stop complaining. You're only making things worse.
2) There is no step 2.
See Foman, it's not that hard.

[Edited on 07.30.2007 4:27 PM PDT]

  • 07.30.2007 4:26 PM PDT

Inside the Mind of Halotitan Help me get expand my mind.

I normally try to ignore people like that, they've gotten me blacklisted in the past. Well I've gotten myself blacklisted, but it was because I let them get to me and began to completely ignore the rules. I've found that ignoring them is the best solution, just don't reply because all you do is feed fuel to their fire.

  • 07.30.2007 4:28 PM PDT

Proof there is a God.
My RT account page.
My Grifball user page.
So if you really want to get to know me, you're welcome to add me anywhere.

Foman, I completely agree with virtually every point you made. (No, I'm not sucking up, really..)

If people came into a "bad" thread and saw that virtually everyone there that said something had been blacklisted for spam/flaming, then they'd think, "Woah, I'd better not spam/flame. I could end up like those freaks."

It really sounds like a great idea.

  • 07.30.2007 4:40 PM PDT
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SPOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOON!

I have to disagree with you on this one Foman. I can actually see all the blacklisted users if I want to, and it can be quite an eyesore. If the topics were marred with like 30 "Moderator Notice" blood red eye catchers, I guarantee it would derail any and every topic in which users saw those. Everyone would either ask what those messages meant, or they would be too afraid to post. Also, not every thread in which users are banned needs to be locked. Trolls and flamers may be a problem sometimes, but its not necessarily the threads fault. I've banned quite a few users in legitimate topics without having to lock the thread. All that would be left over then is possibly pages of moderator notices mixed with a few unbanned users who were being on topic. That would destroy any discussion imaginable.

I think our current method is the way to go. Although it may cause some ambiguity as to where these people went, its worth it. Some people would consider that "Moderator Notice" a badge of honor. We want to avoid drawing attention to trolls and spammers, not outright give it to them.

Although it may allow new users to see the consequences of mis-behaving, I don't think it would do a lot to stop it. Most of them would probably see the messages, think about it for a minute, and continue doing whatever they were doing before they saw the notice. I have to doubt its effectiveness, especially when quite a few of the users on this site seem to not care about being banned.

Warnings and bans already do that job better than any other method, and they don't usually result in a mass of red eyesores. Our current method takes away attention form the people who were probably doing what they did for attention quite nicely. I think when I weigh the pro's and the con's of both of these models, the "hiding banned user's posts" method wins out. That may just be me though.


-edit-

Whoops, I forgot to say something on topic.

If you encounter flamers, send the thread in question via PM to a ninja, and we'll take care of it.

[Edited on 07.30.2007 6:43 PM PDT]

  • 07.30.2007 6:38 PM PDT
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Posted by: evilcam
I have to disagree with you on this one Foman. I can actually see all the blacklisted users if I want to, and it can be quite an eyesore. If the topics were marred with like 30 "Moderator Notice" blood red eye catchers, I guarantee it would derail any and every topic in which users saw those. Everyone would either ask what those messages meant, or they would be too afraid to post. Also, not every thread in which users are banned needs to be locked. Trolls and flamers may be a problem sometimes, but its not necessarily the threads fault. I've banned quite a few users in legitimate topics without having to lock the thread. All that would be left over then is possibly pages of moderator notices mixed with a few unbanned users who were being on topic. That would destroy any discussion imaginable.

That is true.
Now that I think about it is it possible to send some kind of Automatic message to new users about the rules and consequences of the forums? Or better yet some kind of message already in their inbox when the sign up? If it were possible that would help a lot. I think that recieving a rules and regulations message with the account may help some members adjust to the forums easier. Also by having the message before they even enter the forums it may save some people from taking a liking to the spammers we have on the forums.

  • 07.30.2007 7:46 PM PDT
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Haha. All I see is a big, fat wall of text in this thread.

I'll sum up everything I saw in this thread: Hand out free sammiches.

  • 07.30.2007 7:54 PM PDT

Cake>Pie!
Hey you saw my sig! :)
Their was a time when this was under a post. Simpler times; no Halo 3 Forum and no search. Simpler times. Happy about search though.

Can't anyone here make a summary with 1 or 2 sentences? Here is a summary: Ignore idiots.

[Edited on 07.30.2007 8:03 PM PDT]

  • 07.30.2007 8:02 PM PDT
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Posted by: Tinman123
Can't anyone here make a summary with 1 or 2 sentences? Here is a summary: Ignore idiots.

These are debates not summaries. And as far as summaries go I usually hate seing them on the main forums. They are usually not interesting reads. A good discussion has long posts and great arguments.

  • 07.30.2007 8:08 PM PDT
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Destinypedia - The Wiki for Bungie's Destiny
Posted by: DEATHPIMP72
Anyone but Foman. He smells like cheese.

Hey Cam,
Yeah, as I admitted, the idea likely needs some tweaking if it were to work. You're probably right about the effect of even just 2 or 3 "moderator notices" on de-railing a thread. And the red notice over and over again would be a bit of an eyesore. But as I noted, a bad post can derail a thread just as if not more easily than a moderator notice. And how often will there be a thread where there are many blacklistings where the thread is not locked anyway?

As far as the badge of honor thing goes, I'm SURE that you're right about that. But this slightly negative effect of a visible blacklisting could probably be weighed against the positive effect of public enforcement. New users do not really know about alternate accounts and "spammer pride." All they would know is that bad posts are harshly and publicly dealt with.

I was kind of thinking on the fly with this idea and realize that it isn't perfect. I just really think that some kind of more visible enforcement is needed so that new users realize that their actions will have consequences.

Sorry to the twitchy ADD kids who can't read more than two lines without feeling tired.

[Edited on 07.31.2007 5:05 AM PDT]

  • 07.31.2007 4:41 AM PDT
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Posted by: x Foman123 x
I was kind of thinking on the fly with this idea and realize that it isn't perfect. I just really think that some kind of more visible enforcement is needed so that new users realize that their actions will have consequences.

What do you think of adding a message when peoples' accounts are just created (Like I said above). Just curious for feedback on the idea :)

  • 07.31.2007 7:27 PM PDT

Don't send me group invites.

Posted by: odmichael
Posted by: x Foman123 x
I was kind of thinking on the fly with this idea and realize that it isn't perfect. I just really think that some kind of more visible enforcement is needed so that new users realize that their actions will have consequences.

What do you think of adding a message when peoples' accounts are just created (Like I said above). Just curious for feedback on the idea :)
I actually really like your idea of an automated messaged being sent to a member when they create an account.

I just don't know how much work that would take for the web team.

  • 07.31.2007 7:34 PM PDT

Halo3Planet, the place for all things Halo 3..

Need help finding skulls, make sure to go here.

I still think one of the best things this forum could have would be the "flag" system on threads. I understand that it can and WILL be abused, but it may also be a good way to alert moderators to the bad threads. Maybe, inappropriately flagging a thread could become a seven day blacklist. This could cause some members to think twice before they flag a thread as "Spam", "Off-topic", etc. I personally don't agree with this next idea, but I recall some members who said maybe the moderators could give certain members the ability to flag threads. This would only add to elitism unless there is no way to tell if a user can flag threads or not.

  • 07.31.2007 7:41 PM PDT
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The Marty Army

Ah, look at the lonely people...

I think the way to go is a zero-tolerance policy. If you are a jerk, just once, you get a week's vacation.

  • 07.31.2007 7:52 PM PDT
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Posted by: DEATHPIMP72
Anyone but Foman. He smells like cheese.

Posted by: roman arrow12
I still think one of the best things this forum could have would be the "flag" system on threads. I understand that it can and WILL be abused, but it may also be a good way to alert moderators to the bad threads. Maybe, inappropriately flagging a thread could become a seven day blacklist. This could cause some members to think twice before they flag a thread as "Spam", "Off-topic", etc. I personally don't agree with this next idea, but I recall some members who said maybe the moderators could give certain members the ability to flag threads. This would only add to elitism unless there is no way to tell if a user can flag threads or not.
Ya, *raises hand* that would be me who had that idea. Back when I had that idea, people were throwing the word "elitism" at every single new idea that anybody came up with in this forum.

In my opinion, I countered the elitism point pretty well on the second page of this thread, where I said,

"Senior" or "Veteran" Members would not think that they were so great that they couldn't be bothered to converse with regular members. If you want proof that the system would not create elitism, just look at the moderators - they participate in the forums just as much as ever. Such a result has not happened with you and it would not happen with Senior Members, who would receive such status PRECISELY because they are mature and wise enough not to resort to petty or elitist squabbles about who is a better/worse member.

And completely disregarding the question of whether or not "Senior" or "Veteran" status would create "elitism," it would most certainly give regular members something to strive for. I believe that LOTS of members would want to receive this status, and they would realize that this can be a much more attainable goal than "forum ninja" status. Members who would not clean up their posting habits otherwise might strive to attain this status and stop posting spam/flames.

  • 07.31.2007 8:18 PM PDT
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Elitism has nothing to do with how long you've been a member, foman. The most obvious incarnation is your regular "My post count > Yours" troll. However, they're not a problem here. The problem here is usually self-righteous twuntmonkeys who post exclusively in the septagon and are obviously only posting about how much the H3F needs cleaning up so they'll be noticed to become the next moderators

However. There is a solution to all these problems.

Twitch.
For.
Modz.

  • 07.31.2007 8:32 PM PDT
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Posted by: x Foman123 x
"Senior" or "Veteran" Members would not think that they were so great that they couldn't be bothered to converse with regular members. If you want proof that the system would not create elitism, just look at the moderators - they participate in the forums just as much as ever.

The moderators are not senior members; they are moderators. Your analogy doesn't hold. Plus we've never had people called senior members based on some criteria so you can't prove anything, you can only assume.

  • 07.31.2007 8:34 PM PDT

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