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Posted by: DEATHPIMP72
Anyone but Foman. He smells like cheese.

I write this post asking that those of you who think that this Forum should be reserved for one-liner posts, webcam games, halfway-clever off-topic "inside" Bungie jokes/references, and locked "how do i change my name?" threads kindly refrain from posting such thoughts here.

The Problem

Notwithstanding the apparent feelings of some users here who think the Halo 3 Forum and other public forums on this site are "under control" or "doing just fine," I think that most would acknowledge that an intelligent discussion in those forums has become impossible. Indeed, make a casual reference about "intelligent discussion" here in the Community Forum, and you will immediately receive three or four sarcastic comments in response.

It does not have to be this way. Multiple recent polls have shown that the vast, vast majority of users here are of high school age or older. Polls are not scientifically reliable, of course, but even common sense and a little bit of observation of what people talk about on this site can lead us to the same conclusion. Moreover, many of us are at the university level or higher. At these ages, people should be expected to act more mature. I am convinced that with a little bit of encouragement and prodding, this result is attainable.

A Culture of Intelligent Discussion

I have mentioned, in a few of my posts recently, a sociological epiphany-of-the-obvious that I had: on this site (as in most situations in real life), people react to and conform to the behaviors of those around them. I have seen the very same users who post one-liner spam and flame comments in the Halo 3 forum come to CompoundIntelligence or the Community Forum and create a well-thought-out, coherent post. And I have seen the opposite -- users that I respect from their posts in the Community Forum or in CompoundIntelligence visiting the Halo 3 Forum or the Flood and changing their behavior and posting style to become 12-years-old all over again.

It is indisputable that most of us would like to be able to go to the Halo 3 Forum and have an intelligent, rational discussion. Over the course of the day today, I observed as a very thoughtful and well-written post by a user named Adreniline in the Halo 3 Forum disintegrated into petty flames and spam solely because the thread mentioned MLG. As Recon marveled when he closed the thread, "Once again, a thread about a Halo game that mentions MLG has become less about the game, and (once more) about MLG (and the assumptions/presumptions from both sides of the street). . . . Amazing." (emphasis added)

This kind of thing is not okay. Locking threads that go out of control is like the oft-cited example of the general citizenry standing by and thinking it's okay that they just enable the police to arrest criminals after they've already committed the crime, yet ignoring the factors that cause crime in the first place. We are the citizenry, the moderators are the police, the criminals are the bad posters, and the crime is the bad post.

Our moderators are excellent enforcers, but we cannot blithely rely on them while ignoring the underlying causes of our inability to to understand or post rationally in the Halo 3 Forum. If we dare to purport to want the same thing that the Bungie staff wants out of the Halo 3 forum, we must do more. As we can easily observe in other places on this site that are rife with Halo 3 fans, this high-quality-posting culture IS attainable. Yet we, the loyal and longtime Bungie fans, sit back and do nothing to try to help attain it in bungie.net's most popular public forums, instead saying that merely enforcing the rules against bad posts after they already occur is sufficient. But as can be seen at any hour of the day in the Halo 3 Forum, this approach is not good enough.

Not the Bungie staff but rather the Community -- the source of 99% of the regulation, administration, and culture inherent in these forums -- needs to encourage a culture of intelligent discussion. Do this, and you will find your own experience much more enjoyable. Those of you who find the Halo 3 forum far too frantic for real discussion and retreat instead to the sanctuary of the private groups will finally be able to emerge and have real discussions with other fans of the game.

We all need to help with ideas and actions if we are going to help to slowly turn around the culture of spam and flames resident in the Halo 3 Forum. So, to start, I have devised the following idea.

An Idea: Variable Spam Filters

Bearing in mind Achronos's admonition that "Everybody is an idea man," and acknowledging at the outset that I have little perception of either the "stealth user-trust rating system" or the technical difficulties involved in implementing the idea presented below, I'd like to still make a proposition and submit it to the Community Forum for criticism and/or comment.

1) As we all know already, Achronos has a subcutaneous, stealthy "trust ratings" system working on this site right now.

2) As we also already know, the Bungie.net spam filter prevents you from posting more than once within a certain amount of time, somewhere between 30 seconds and one minute.

Well why not combine those two concepts into a much more severe system that would encourage longer, better thought out posts? I introduce the Bungie.net Trust Rating-Dependent Variable Spam Filter.

New users who start out with some certain trust rating (we don't know whether it is a comparably "low" trust rating or whether it is comparably "average") are restricted by the Variable Spam Filter to posting say, once every 6 or 8 minutes (sample somewhat arbitrarily chosen for discussion purposes). As their trust rating goes up, their Spam Filter timer goes down. Develop a high enough trust rating, and your spam filter might go down to 10 or 20 seconds. Moderators and site admin, of course, would have no spam filter at all (0 seconds).

Receive a warning or blacklisting from a moderator, and your trust rating goes down. Inversely, your spam filter increases. Log in on an alternate account and your trust ratings on both accounts go down (hopefully). For "untrusted" users, their spam filter goes up to 25 or 30 minutes -- even when not on the blacklist.

Benefits

Such a system would have immediate effects on the quality of posts in the forums. By restricting posts to only once every few (or several) minutes for new or "bad" users, they would be both encouraged and forced to put some time and thought into their posts. I hypothesize a distinct decrease in one-liner insults, flames, "youfail" links, and sarcastic comments. Users most likely to post such garbage in the Halo 3 Forum are the very users who would be losing the most (wasting one of their few available posts) by posting them. This may be painful for them, but it will force-feed them the culture of good posts.

Even "alt" accounts would be useless (assuming, as I do, that Achronos's trust rating system takes this into account) -- first, logging in on an alternate account in order to post again quickly would reduce the trust rating on both the original and alternate accounts. Second, new accounts would start out with a low trust rating, thus confining them to posting once every several minutes also. And users who try to alternate between accounts to post more frequently only find themselves being able to post LESS and LESS frequently. Ha!

As for "trusted" users, they have earned the right to post frequently as well as to post the occasional one-liner in exchange for their observation of the forum rules and conventions of contribution to good discussion. And clearly, they are much less likely to abuse the spam filter. If they do spam, they get a warning or blacklisting and suddenly find their allowed response time increased.

Detriments

Again, I do not know how complicated this kind of thing would be to code -- I am not much of a programmer. But if Bungie employees and others (such as many of this forum's regulars) really are finding themselves currently unable to participate in a rational discussion on the public Halo 3 forum, it might be worth it.

Second, this idea, like so many others, contains the ever-present possibility of "elitism," otherwise known as bragging that you can post every 10 seconds. Frankly, I think that talking about this kind of thing should be encouraged, as it will make other users want to be better users in order to raise their trust ratings. To avoid the ability to figure out ways to game the system, the exact time would be a secret and the "anti-spam" filter would continue to display the same message that it always has. Furthermore, while it would be publicized that the spam filter was dependent on your trust rating, exact methods of raising your trust rating beyond "follow the rules" would generally be a secret.

Third, I can see this idea becoming quite annoying in private groups, so this system would be for the public forums only. This would also enhance its secretiveness.

Fourth, this would require diligence from the mods in warnings and blacklistings, knowing that every action they take, even from the smallest warnings to the most severe bans, would have an effect on that user's ability to post thereafter. I do not see this as a problem, though -- the mods are already quite diligent in the Halo 3 Forum and others, and this would be unlikely to negatively affect their moderating.

Conclusion

Well I'm just about at my character limit, so I'll leave this for you guys to comment, critique, question, and peruse :-)

[Edited on 08.01.2007 12:38 AM PDT]

  • 08.01.2007 12:32 AM PDT

Don't send me group invites.

Very well thought out post Foman.

I do find myself going to the Halo 3 forum and retreating from it very quickly because I can find almost no intelligent discussion going on. However, I find myself posting most frequently in the Flood forum. As you probably know, the Flood forum is a very fast paced, high content kind of forum. I find myself writing and responding to posts very quickly, sometimes running into the spam filter.

I usually try to not flame and keep my posts on-topic but there are just so many things going on in that forum at the same time, I don't think a system like this would work. I mean I've had 1000 posts in the past month! I just think many proposals like this are too subjective to be implemented. If Achronos' algorithm and programming for "trust level" was perfect, then that would be a different story, but I still think this would rely too much on mod discretion.

Although now that I think about it, the benefits would greatly improve the forum's activity and intelligent conversation going on. I think I would sacrifice some posts to be able to voice my opinion on important matters and such.

And I don't really have any problem with the elitism factor this would introduce because I think it would be minimal.

Sorry that I suck at writing down my thoughts, unlike you apparently.

[Edited on 08.01.2007 12:53 AM PDT]

  • 08.01.2007 12:50 AM PDT

Wow Foman, job well done. This idea actually makes some sense. I understand it completley. I understand especially how the time increases, but, I am a little unclear on how it would decrease. Would it simply decrease over time and/or number of good posts?
I like this, I must say, it makes quite a bit of sense. Less spam and more thought out posts, do something wrong and you go back. This makes sense and right now I shall/am trying to find the negatives. As you said, there of course is always the elitism factor, but that should not matter if such an idea could really help the community. Based off "elitism" everyone would have/get an equal chance to become an "elitist" (kind of cancels the whole elitism thing), just post as good as you can and voila. This would greatly play in with the rewards thing aswell. Who knows, this may already be a feature planned, once I get more sleep I shall update this post and whatnot, right now I am a tad tired and unsure about what I just said.

What he said.
Posted by: Eight Oh 8 State
Sorry that I suck at writing down my thoughts.....


[Edited on 08.01.2007 12:59 AM PDT]

  • 08.01.2007 12:56 AM PDT

I doubt that restricting a members quantity of posts would improve the quality. They do have time to think about their post more, but they always have that time; anytime they hit the create a post page. If a bad member is determined to post something, then they'll post it, no matter how long a wait it is.

  • 08.01.2007 1:04 AM PDT
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Posted by: DEATHPIMP72
Anyone but Foman. He smells like cheese.

Posted by: Hobo GRrunt
I doubt that restricting a members quantity of posts would improve the quality. They do have time to think about their post more, but they always have that time; anytime they hit the create a post page. If a bad member is determined to post something, then they'll post it, no matter how long a wait it is.
First, I really doubt that. That line of logic assumes that a user does not care if he is restricted to posting only once every 15 or 20 minutes, and has absolutely no desire to increase his or her ability to post more often.

But even if it were true, you would still see a noticeable decrease in the volume of bad posts by untrusted users, while the volume of good posts by trusted users would remain at a normal level.

[Edited on 08.01.2007 1:15 AM PDT]

  • 08.01.2007 1:12 AM PDT

鬼

I like the majority of the idea. One of the few things that I disagree with is that quantity equals quality. Some people may be able to post in a sentence what it may take others much longer to say. I don't think that the person that posts in a sentence should necessarily be punished for their writing ability. That being said, I highly doubt that the majority of quick, one-sentence posts are so well thought out.

My only question, then, would involve the implementation of this system. Would it start based on our existing trust rating (you, for example, Foman, are a very respected member of the community, and I imagine that you have a high trust rating/low post filter), or would we be given a clean slate? Also, how visible would the system be? I tend to think that the more you can see such a system, the worse. Once people have a number they can get attached to, things devolve.

All in all, it sounds like a good idea, but I guess I'd have to reserve judgment until I saw it in action.

[Edited on 08.01.2007 1:31 AM PDT]

  • 08.01.2007 1:14 AM PDT

Posted by: x Foman123 x
Posted by: Hobo GRrunt
I doubt that restricting a members quantity of posts would improve the quality. They do have time to think about their post more, but they always have that time; anytime they hit the create a post page. If a bad member is determined to post something, then they'll post it, no matter how long a wait it is.
First, I really doubt that. That line of logic assumes that a user does not care if he is restricted to posting only once every 15 or 20 minutes, and has absolutely no desire to increase his or her ability to post more often.

But even if it were true, you would still see a noticeable decrease in the volume of bad posts by untrusted users, while the volume of good posts by trusted users would remain at a normal level.


And if a member wanted to change their post, they'd have done so in the time avalible. There are only benefits from this idea, but I say it's unneeded. The best solution to a bad member is a blacklist, and the method of handing those out is being handled already.

[Edited on 08.01.2007 1:22 AM PDT]

  • 08.01.2007 1:20 AM PDT
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The End

‘The conscious is cancerous if allowed to linger’

"Even if you're on the right track, you'll get run over if you just sit there."

I have to say I am intrigued by this idea. Whether or not it would work is another matter.

It would mean respected members can bash out posts quicker and may encourage them to begin to spout one liners. So as a control I think that the current spam filter is acceptable for respected members and the more you offend the more time is put on the spam filters time constraints.

Don't give people super quick responses, why? Because it is pointless. Just increase the spam filter for those morons who post spam all the time. We want to maintain intelligent discussion.

~TOM T 117

Btw good job Foman. Well explained, balanced and well put into an understandable format ;-)

  • 08.01.2007 1:32 AM PDT
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Posted by: DEATHPIMP72
Anyone but Foman. He smells like cheese.

Posted by: Bungie is Boss
I like the majority of the idea. One of the few things that I disagree with is that quantity equals quality. Some people may be able to post in a sentence what it may take others much longer to say. I don't think that the person that posts in a sentence should necessarily be punished for their writing ability. That being said, I highly doubt that the majority of quick, one-sentence posts are so well thought out.

I agree completely, actually -- one or two sentence posts can have just as much merit as a longer one. That is why a trusted user who tends to write short posts would really not notice any difference at all from their current posting. But mistrusted users would notice a huge difference as a consequence of their repeated bad behavior :-)

Posted by: Hobo GRunt
And if a member wanted to change their post, they'd have done so in the time avalible. There are only benefits from this idea, but I say it's unneeded. The best solution to a bad member is a blacklist, and the method of handing those out is being handled already.

Like I pointed out earlier, blacklisting bad members does not strike at the root of the problem.

I'm not sure exactly what you're getting at regarding changing posts in the time available. We all know that many members here post in high-volume, low-content fashion. Restricting the ability of "bad posters" to post high-volume is, in and of itself, part of a solution. Moreover, it encourages them, over time, to complete the solution by making better content (such that they do not receive further warnings or blacklistings).

[Edited on 08.01.2007 2:02 AM PDT]

  • 08.01.2007 1:52 AM PDT
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The End

‘The conscious is cancerous if allowed to linger’

"Even if you're on the right track, you'll get run over if you just sit there."

Posted by: x Foman123 x
Like I pointed out earlier, blacklisting bad members does not strike at the root of the problem.

We all know that many members here post in high-volume, low-content fashion. Restricting their ability to post high-volume is, in and of itself, part of a solution. Moreover, it encourages them, over time, to complete the solution by making better content (such that they do not receive further warnings or blacklistings).
I totally agree with you there. Blacklisting is often ineffective because people don't really learn from it. They just go post in groups, come back form their B-list and then restart the whole community inflicting circle. By reducing their ability to spam as a post to stopping it for a limited period of time they will slowly begin to realise that spamming is pointless.

I think it should also effect groups so people are punished on the whole site. That way they can't escape their consequence in group forums.

~TOM T 117

[Edited on 08.01.2007 1:59 AM PDT]

  • 08.01.2007 1:59 AM PDT
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Well Foman..... your post is typically well-written and intriguing; I wouldn't expect anything less. Still, I remain very sceptical.

The problem I have with your idea actually has more to do with the underlying and unquestioned presumptions that lace this 'trust system' upon which you build your blueprint. It's interesting you linked the thread in which Achronos vaguely discussed the system as many users correctly pointed out the obvious reservations any sensible individual would have at that point. To reiterate the observations made in that thread; we neither understand the system enough to comment on its fairness nor can we know enough as community members to pass judgement on its success. As a result, these judgements are out of the hands of the people of the community and very much in the hands of... well... Achronos (and his fancy and 'magical' program). Now that might be entirely acceptable to you; but I'm afraid to further expand and deepen the role of what is effectively an untried, untested and unknown program without knowing either how it works or how successful it is would take a leap of faith bordering on wilfull ignorance. Taking things further, one need not even agree with my observations, they can simply read the observations of the person struggling with the thing:

Posted by: Achronos
...an automated system cannot make value judgements about the content of posts


Posted by: Achronos
Admittedly, the math is quite complex, but that's why it is in prototype state right now, just collecting data. I hope that eventually we'll be able to tweak it to be fair, and then turn the consequences on. Of course, it is entirely possible that it won't ever work well enough to my satisfaction, but we won't know unless we collect the data. :)


Are the results in?

My view therefore remains unchanged. I simply do not think this automated system will encourage 'good posts' or 'bad posts'. It may encourage longer, more eloquently written tripe though. That said, let me push my criticism to one side for a moment. I think, at best, one could imagine some fairly crude background tool indicating a users number of bans etc being used in order to direct the attention of Mods... doesn't seem out of the question or unreasonable.

I'm sorry I couldn't be more positive and enthusiastic about your idea Foman. It's full of your typical energy and is obviously spurred along with only the very best of intentions. That's the irony though... the very best of intentions are often what drive the most terrible ideas.

[Edited on 08.01.2007 2:25 AM PDT]

  • 08.01.2007 2:23 AM PDT

Fight hard, break bones >{o

i dont think i get it. what is considered 'bad'? how would a system know? if someone only posts a sentence is that considered bad? if some one uses a link but nothing else is that? would this system only apply to the public forums or groups as well? is the information all put in by moderators; just a hidden, higher-ranked-only version of karma?

the only way i can see fixing the forums (given im not sure about your system) is to simply attack the forums (like Halo3) with good posts. have a team of people post at once to leave people only with the option of viewing good threads. start using the search feature to hopefully let people notice the dates things were posted (though no one would read more then the first post still im sure). but even then new people will come with the sole purpose of asking their question or proposing an idea.

the time expansion you propose could work. in other cases i wouldnt see making it longer then 30 seconds to a minute but it would probably be effective at minutes (10, 20). that would probably only occur through people posting once then going to do something else. this would cause a ton of people to not return to bungie at all and then leave only the good. which would be fine with me but i dont think thats a solution bungie would really consider.

[Edited on 08.01.2007 3:19 AM PDT]

  • 08.01.2007 3:17 AM PDT
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I can see one very BIG problem with this, Foman.
It would drive away members. Not the hardcore, 'trusted' members, but the spammers, flamers and generally irresponsible jerks.
Why is this a problem?
Because they are fans of Bungie too. No matter how 'undesirable' their behaviour may be, they still like to post on the site. If they find that they cannot post for extended periods of time, they will simply find another site.
These people make up a large portion, if not the majority, of posters in the H3 forum. True, in other forums, they may post well, but, as you said, in the H3 forum, the gloves come off, and the flame throwers come out. If these people leave, en masse, Bungie will find itself losing a large portion of its fanbase. A portion low in value, yes, but large in volume.
What do spammers do best? Spread information. Information such as 'Bungie.net is awesome, you should post there instead of this backwards dump'.
'Force' them to leave, and that information will stop spreading, to be replaced with 'B.net sucks, this site rules'. Eventually, this may lead to a minor exodus of the 'average gamers' from B.net, and the sprouting of 'We hate Bungie, Halo SUCKS' fansites.
Suddenly, Bungie would find that less people are playing Halo. And less people playing Halo may equate to less people playing XBL. Less people playing XBL means less money for Microsoft.
I doubt that would go over well.

  • 08.01.2007 3:50 AM PDT

A forum is only made of the thoughts of those who post in it. If a queue of low-post and low-history users want to know the same thing, you can't tell them to talk about something else. I like your idea of what the halo 3 forum should be like, but to enforce that would be self-serving.

  • 08.01.2007 5:28 AM PDT
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Posted by: dalmedya
Suddenly, Bungie would find that less people are playing Halo. And less people playing Halo may equate to less people playing XBL. Less people playing XBL means less money for Microsoft.
I doubt that would go over well.


There are some things in your post I vaguely agree with, but with respect I think RythmKiller probably touched on them in a more pertinent manner.

What I strongly disagree with in your post is the assumption that Bungie will lose Halo 3 players through the policy of their own forums. This will not happen.

Firstly, Halo 3 will be far more popular a game than I think anyone here can imagine. This huge increase in Halo players worldwide will be as a direct result of the game design... and nothing else. Secondly, the user-related content from Halo 3 will have far more people more enthusiastic than ever about contributing on Bungie.net. Make no mistake... starting in September we can all expect a truly massive influx of new members on Bungie.net.

Now, what this requires first and foremost is diligence AND PATIENCE from all senior Bungie.net members whom feel they can play a positive role on the site. The rest of the work falls squarely on the shoulders of the ninjas... whom I don't envy one bit. Let's not forget, it's entirely possible that the forums might see some improvements as well as some set-backs... that is the nature of this organised chaos we call Bungie.net.

  • 08.01.2007 5:47 AM PDT

Posted by: Chomskyite
....but with respect I think RythmKiller probably touched on them in a more pertinent manner.

Oooooh matron.

  • 08.01.2007 6:08 AM PDT
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By 'less' I meant 'not as many as there should be.'

  • 08.01.2007 6:09 AM PDT
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This system is one that would need a lot of thinking. This system could either hurt the community or help it. Just think about the realese of Halo 3. Everyone will be posting like animals on these forums (EVERYONE!). No one can deny it. It is true. The forums will be spinning out of control. This could either kill off the forums or make it better.

It could kill off the forums because people will be spamming left and right with things such as "Thank you bungie" or "Use the search button". These types of things would make your rating go down I pressume. And everyone will be doing certain things such as this because everyone will talk about the game. I will expect to see the new post symbol for like the first 10 pages of the forum. This would mean everyones rank would decrease. Therefore, It would make it very hard for people to get out their posts and most people would just leave the forum because they could not post anyway. This would hurt innocent members that do not even deserve the blacklist.

I think that a good place to test this sort of thing would be in one of the Bungie.net's larger groups such as Brute Ghost Busters or Compound Intelligence. I know the idea is not made for groups. But we could see whether it hurts the group or not. If it hurts the group then we would know whether it would kill off the main forums or not.

EDIT:
Another thing is Foman you really cannot compare peoples' posts in Compound Intelligence to the Halo 3 forum. It is a difficult comparisson because the game is not out yet. Therefore, some people are less knowledgeable about some topics than others.

For instance one person maybe a real good follower of the ARG. So they are able to make very elaborite posts because they have the knowledge of the ARG to do so. However, they have yet to buy the new EGM magazine (which is out/being sent to subscribers). Therefore, because they do not have the knowledge of lets say the Prowler they cannot talk about it.

It is hard to make a comparisson when some people are further behind on topics than others. If you can point out that some people post better in let's say a Halo 2 group than in the Halo 2 forum (Because everybody is on the same page) then your theory may be a little better.

[Edited on 08.01.2007 8:33 AM PDT]

  • 08.01.2007 6:53 AM PDT

Strange evolution how people have come to believe
That we are it's greatest achievement
We're barely, we're just a collection of cells
Overrating themselves

The only problem with this is that no matter how chaotic the Halo 3 (as an example) forum is now, its only a slow trickle compared to what will come when the game is actually released.

If someone wants to flame, spam, troll, or Troll they will, regardless of what measures are put in place to prevent it. Limiting someones ability to post simply because they are new here removes a large population of potential contributers. Foman, how long would have stuck around the community if for the first two or three months of your membership you could only post every 15 minutes? You may have stuck around but many won't.

I would still say the simplest way to keep an intelligent conversation going in a spam forum is to PM a mod about people who are spamming or derailing the thread. Not only that, but its up to the people engaged in the intelligent conversation to ignore them. That way, the conversation can continue and offending parties will eventually be removed.

As far as witty, random, off-topic one-liners go, Bungie (at least to me) was built on witty one-liners and humor. They are what make the updates, interviews, podcasts, and press releases enjoyable to read. If I wanted constant dull analytical dissertations concerning weapon placement and effectiveness, I would go hang out at Konami. Its the humor that keeps alot of people here. If it weren't for Bungie's in your face, or more appropriately, on your mom's face humor, I for one, wouldnt still be here.

I beleive that if everyone spent more time being a part of the "community" instead of finding ways to fix what isnt broken, they would be better off.

  • 08.01.2007 7:38 AM PDT
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Posted by: DEATHPIMP72
Anyone but Foman. He smells like cheese.

Posted by: twinkiemaker
The only problem with this is that no matter how chaotic the Halo 3 (as an example) forum is now, its only a slow trickle compared to what will come when the game is actually released.

If someone wants to flame, spam, troll, or Troll they will, regardless of what measures are put in place to prevent it. Limiting someones ability to post simply because they are new here removes a large population of potential contributers. Foman, how long would have stuck around the community if for the first two or three months of your membership you could only post every 15 minutes? You may have stuck around but many won't.

I would still say the simplest way to keep an intelligent conversation going in a spam forum is to PM a mod about people who are spamming or derailing the thread. Not only that, but its up to the people engaged in the intelligent conversation to ignore them. That way, the conversation can continue and offending parties will eventually be removed.

As far as witty, random, off-topic one-liners go, Bungie (at least to me) was built on witty one-liners and humor. They are what make the updates, interviews, podcasts, and press releases enjoyable to read. If I wanted constant dull analytical dissertations concerning weapon placement and effectiveness, I would go hang out at Konami. Its the humor that keeps alot of people here. If it weren't for Bungie's in your face, or more appropriately, on your mom's face humor, I for one, wouldnt still be here.

I beleive that if everyone spent more time being a part of the "community" instead of finding ways to fix what isnt broken, they would be better off.

I think that you largely missed the purpose of my post. Indeed, I'm going to go as far as to say that you barely skimmed it.

First, I take offense at what appears to be your personal attack on me and your suggestion that I should "be a part of the community" more, and that somehow, everything will get better if we just ignore it. I am far more a part of this community than most people, and I participate substantively in a variety of ways every single day. I think I'm entitled to make the occasional post about helping the community.

You are mighty bold to even imply that I should be spending more time participating in the community rather than making suggestions for its welfare. In fact, if you are really making that suggestion, then I must reach the conclusion that you do not participate in this community nearly enough to be passing judgment on how others spend their time on these forums.

Second, the Halo 3 Forum IS broken. I addressed that issue in my first post, which is why I think that you didn't really read it. You declare that the forum is not broken, yet you yourself have not participated in it in a month and a half. How can you say everything's fine in a place where you won't go? Read Luke's sticky in the Halo 3 Forum and then please try and give me one good rebuttal arguing that the Halo 3 forum is not a huge mess before implying that I am coming up with ideas to fix something that is not broken.

Third, you apparently completely skipped over my section about how enforcement is good for enforcing a rule violation after it happens, but less effective for preventing the violation from happening in the first place. The simplest way to keep an intelligent conversation going is not to PM a mod but rather to put in place a system to prevent the spam and off-topic posts from happening in the first place.

Fourth, read my post again -- as far as witty one-liners go, they are fine. My idea would not reduce a user's trust rating merely for posting a one-liner. And users who posted lots of witty one-liners but never really broke the rules or got in trouble would be able to continue doing so as if nothing had changed. But users who post one-liner spam or flame posts would quickly find themselves unable to continue doing so at the rate that they currently do. I certainly hope that you're not suggesting that there is merit in a Rick Roll video or a "Go kill yourself" post.

  • 08.01.2007 8:10 AM PDT

Strange evolution how people have come to believe
That we are it's greatest achievement
We're barely, we're just a collection of cells
Overrating themselves

1. It wasnt a personal attack directed at you. I was referring to the constant stream of "We need to fix x or y" posts in the Septagon that roughly translate into "Hey everyone look at me." Trust me when I say I would have made it more than obvious if I was attacking you.

2. I dont consider Rick Roll or "Go kill yourself" posts witty or humorous one-liners.

3. As many "lurkers" here a quick to point out by their claims of "I've been here since 1978, but I didnt sign up or post until January", a person can visit a forum without posting in it.

4. I consider your proposal for the Halo 3 forum (and forums in general) somewhat akin to something Stalin or Hussein would implement. Thats just my opinion. Im sure you disagree with it, but its my opinion to hold nonetheless. I also believe that you're suggesting a fix for something that is more of a societal issue than a Bungie Community issue. When you figure something out that will convince parents to actually teach their kids some basic respect, manners and discipline, let me know.

ps - You'll have to pardon the terseness, I'm short on time this morning.

  • 08.01.2007 8:33 AM PDT
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Destinypedia - The Wiki for Bungie's Destiny
Posted by: DEATHPIMP72
Anyone but Foman. He smells like cheese.

Posted by: odmichael
This system is one that would need a lot of thinking. This system could either hurt the community or help it. Just think about the realese of Halo 3. Everyone will be posting like animals on these forums (EVERYONE!). No one can deny it. It is true. The forums will be spinning out of control. This could either kill off the forums or make it better.

It could kill off the forums because people will be spamming left and right with things such as "Thank you bungie" or "Use the search button". These types of things would make your rating go down I pressume. And everyone will be doing certain things such as this because everyone will talk about the game. I will expect to see the new post symbol for like the first 10 pages of the forum. This would mean everyones rank would decrease. Therefore, It would make it very hard for people to get out their posts and most people would just leave the forum because they could not post anyway. This would hurt innocent members that do not even deserve the blacklist.

I think that a good place to test this sort of thing would be in one of the Bungie.net's larger groups such as Brute Ghost Busters or Compound Intelligence. I know the idea is not made for groups. But we could see whether it hurts the group or not. If it hurts the group then we would know whether it would kill off the main forums or not.

EDIT:
Another thing is Forman you really cannot compare peoples' posts in Compound Intelligence to the Halo 3 forum. It is a difficult comparisson because the game is not out yet. Therefore, some people are less knowledgeable about some topics than others.

For instance one person maybe a real good follower of the ARG. So they are able to make very elaborite posts because they have the knowledge of the ARG to do so. However, they have yet to buy the new EGM magazine (which is out/being sent to subscribers). Therefore, because they do not have the knowledge of lets say the Prowler they cannot talk about it.

It is hard to make a comparisson when some people are further behind on topics than others. If you can point out that some people post better in let's say a Halo 2 group than in the Halo 2 forum (Because everybody is on the same page) then your theory may be a little better.
No, I'm sorry, I should have been a little more clear. Your trust rating, I presume, does not depend on your individual posts. This system would use Achronos's current "under-the-hood" system which seems, from his implications, to evaluate users on a variety of things like warnings and blacklistings, as well as other factors that we don't really know about. I went out on a limb and guessed that logging in on multiple accounts from the same computer or IP address would reduce the trust rating, but I'm not sure about that, and we will probably never know.

The variable spam filter would NOT require you to make long, well-thought-out posts every time or else risk having a higher time in between posts. But it WOULD require you to follow the rules and be a "good" or "trusted" user :-)

[Edited on 08.01.2007 8:36 AM PDT]

  • 08.01.2007 8:34 AM PDT
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Quantity is not Quality.

  • 08.01.2007 8:37 AM PDT
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First off, nicely written Foman.

While a part of me would like this idea to stop spammers, flamers and the such, a part of me is also hoping it wont be implemented.
I'm hoping it wont because I do not want to see threads have the humor sucked rite out of them, what I would like, is that the flood be left as it is at the moment (there is no need for this system there IMO) so there can be a place (other than groups) free of the strick feeling that this idea will bring with it.
one of the reasons I come to B.net is for the variety of post, the humorous, the philosophical and the intellectual (just to name a few types) and while I may not contribute as much as I would like or can, i like to read what others have to say on the matters and try to increase my understanding of the subject.
I'm just afraid that the community wont be the same (for worse) if this is implemented.
It also seems that the real problem is the Halo 3 forum and the most obvious and logical (IMO) solution is that the mods ruthlessly punish every single member that disobeys the CoC.
But I'm still not sure where exactly I stand on this subject because I know there are still some Pro's and Con's that I am not seeing at the moment.

  • 08.01.2007 8:38 AM PDT
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Posted by: x Foman123 x
Posted by: odmichael
This system is one that would need a lot of thinking. This system could either hurt the community or help it. Just think about the realese of Halo 3. Everyone will be posting like animals on these forums (EVERYONE!). No one can deny it. It is true. The forums will be spinning out of control. This could either kill off the forums or make it better.

It could kill off the forums because people will be spamming left and right with things such as "Thank you bungie" or "Use the search button". These types of things would make your rating go down I pressume. And everyone will be doing certain things such as this because everyone will talk about the game. I will expect to see the new post symbol for like the first 10 pages of the forum. This would mean everyones rank would decrease. Therefore, It would make it very hard for people to get out their posts and most people would just leave the forum because they could not post anyway. This would hurt innocent members that do not even deserve the blacklist.

I think that a good place to test this sort of thing would be in one of the Bungie.net's larger groups such as Brute Ghost Busters or Compound Intelligence. I know the idea is not made for groups. But we could see whether it hurts the group or not. If it hurts the group then we would know whether it would kill off the main forums or not.

EDIT:
Another thing is Forman you really cannot compare peoples' posts in Compound Intelligence to the Halo 3 forum. It is a difficult comparisson because the game is not out yet. Therefore, some people are less knowledgeable about some topics than others.

For instance one person maybe a real good follower of the ARG. So they are able to make very elaborite posts because they have the knowledge of the ARG to do so. However, they have yet to buy the new EGM magazine (which is out/being sent to subscribers). Therefore, because they do not have the knowledge of lets say the Prowler they cannot talk about it.

It is hard to make a comparisson when some people are further behind on topics than others. If you can point out that some people post better in let's say a Halo 2 group than in the Halo 2 forum (Because everybody is on the same page) then your theory may be a little better.
No, I'm sorry, I should have been a little more clear. Your trust rating, I presume, does not depend on your individual posts. This system would use Achronos's current "under-the-hood" system which seems, from his implications, to evaluate users on a variety of things like warnings and blacklistings, as well as other factors that we don't really know about. I went out on a limb and guessed that logging in on multiple accounts from the same computer or IP address would reduce the trust rating, but I'm not sure about that, and we will probably never know.

The variable spam filter would NOT require you to make long, well-thought-out posts every time or else risk having a higher time in between posts. But it WOULD require you to follow the rules and be a "good" or "trusted" user :-)

Even then The spam filter may hurt the community. The halo 3 forum will still be like 10 pages long of new posts and the fact is many of these members will be given moderator warning and possibly locked posts because of all the extra posts there will be.

Some of these members have yet to do anything wrong and just because of a locked post or moderator blacklisting warning does this mean that their rank deserves to drop? My question is "Is this system worth being used if it will hurt some members of the community?" because even a 2 minute anti spam filter would stink.

[Edited on 08.01.2007 8:45 AM PDT]

  • 08.01.2007 8:44 AM PDT