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This topic has moved here: Subject: What really constitues skill in Halo?
  • Subject: What really constitues skill in Halo?
Subject: What really constitues skill in Halo?

Greatest of all time

Posted by: FKxPandemic
Posted by: nickyfour92
Posted by: xVxV3ndettA
Posted by: nickyfour92
Sure button combos take skill. But there are better, more skillfull ways to play without them.

For example: Which takes more skill? A.) Walking up to someone, aiming at their head, and pressing 3 buttons (BxR) or B.) beat them down one time, maneuver (jump back, strafe to the side of them, etc.), and shooting their head.

Button combos are the easy way out. If your down two shots, instead of double shotting why not just run around a corner and recharge your shields instead of using a glitch (RRx) that is cheating which alters the game in a situation where you should have died.


Button combos aren't an easy way out. Obviously because it would take just as much practice to no-scope. Thats just like saying "if you had a sniper, why not just not just wait untill they are vunerable?"

Aside from the notion of them being glitches, many people aren't proving how button combinations don't take more skill to use effectively than nay normal method. Button combinations aren't full proof. They are very risky. Like BxB "you can lunge into a bad position" and it happens often .thats how I beat button combo users. I just started using them, and I must say it doesn't make much of a difference. I can still do just as good without them. They simply provide me with more options.


The point i am trying to get across is that their are alternatives to using button glitches. Methods that take the same or even more skill. If people were truly good they would use more skillfull tactics and not button combos. Once again, i'm not saying they don't take skill, their are just more skill methods than just pressing three buttons.


"If people were truly good they would use more skillfull tactics and not button combos". No, people who are good will generally use the quickest and most effective way to kill. BXR is faster than a melee than headshot. Sure, its easier to do, so good people will use the more effective option, not the harder one.

If you sneak up on a group of 3 people, the most skillful way to take them down would be to just use your weapon on each one. the easier, less skillful, but more effective way, would be to use grenades, then maybe use your weapon to finsih off the last of them.


Well if the easy most effective way of killing is using a glitch is considered cheating then i would definitely pick the harder one. Modding is a quick and easy way of killing so should all better players mod too?

  • 08.11.2007 4:30 PM PDT
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Posted by: xVxV3ndettA
"If people were truly good they would use more skillfull tactics and not button combos". No, people who are good will generally use the quickest and most effective way to kill. BXR is faster than a melee than headshot. Sure, its easier to do, so good people will use the more effective option, not the harder one.

Of course, button combinations without tactics makes a person a dumb -blam!- anyways right?


Who cares if you use button combos? its just a game. The point of the game is to have fun, not winning. am i the only one who still thinks that?


People strive on conflict and/or competition. Exploring your potential is a fun thing to do. Therefore, getting better and winning = fun. There's millions of ways to have fun. This is just the preference of people who want to win/get better.

And to answer your question, people have problems with button combinations. That's just the way it is bro.

Ya, i just go in and have fun, i stopped caring about my rank a while ago and decided even if im losing, im still just gonna play it through and do my best. Thats pretty much why i perfer unranked games to ranked, less people who are too into it and less (sometimes) leavers. Although, i do go for the occasional team snipers.
also i dont see why people are getting their panties in a bundle about this, the guy clearly posted that these where his own opinions, skill has different meanings to different people.

[Edited on 08.11.2007 4:35 PM PDT]

  • 08.11.2007 4:33 PM PDT

John 3:16

Posted by: nickyfour92

Well if the easy most effective way of killing is using a glitch is considered cheating then i would definitely pick the harder one. Modding is a quick and easy way of killing so should all better players mod too?



nick, have you even read my post?

Here's the difference bettween killing with button combinations, moding, and cheating
Aside from Bungies official say that button combos are cheating.

Button combos:
---------------------
BC (button combos) require skill, practice, timing, accuracy, and good judgement
BC + Tactics = Pwnage

Cheating:
---------------------
Cheating doesn't require much focus, attention, or effort "in the long run take note" to achieve it's goal
Cheating = effortless win
Cheating + Tactics = still, effortless win

Modding:
---------------------
Same as cheating
Modding = effortless win
Modding = still, effortless win

All in all, cheating and modding don't require tactics. Button combinations do require much mroe effort, preciision ,timing, accuracy, and judgement than both modding and cheating. And its by a LOOOOOONNNGGG SHOT.


His logic does not fall under the assumptions that follow your logic (NOT your logic, but the logic your trying to express). The logic you used is a manipulated version of this in order to better prove your point. I salute your effort, but as you can see I've just refuted it for the sake of shedding light on the topics matter.

[Edited on 08.11.2007 4:43 PM PDT]

  • 08.11.2007 4:37 PM PDT

John 3:16

Posted by: Stellulz
Posted by: xVxV3ndettA
"If people were truly good they would use more skillfull tactics and not button combos". No, people who are good will generally use the quickest and most effective way to kill. BXR is faster than a melee than headshot. Sure, its easier to do, so good people will use the more effective option, not the harder one.

Of course, button combinations without tactics makes a person a dumb -blam!- anyways right?


Who cares if you use button combos? its just a game. The point of the game is to have fun, not winning. am i the only one who still thinks that?


People strive on conflict and/or competition. Exploring your potential is a fun thing to do. Therefore, getting better and winning = fun. There's millions of ways to have fun. This is just the preference of people who want to win/get better.

And to answer your question, people have problems with button combinations. That's just the way it is bro.

Ya, i just go in and have fun, i stopped caring about my rank a while ago and decided even if im losing, im still just gonna play it through and do my best. Thats pretty much why i perfer unranked games to ranked, less people who are too into it and less (sometimes) leavers. Although, i do go for the occasional team snipers.
also i dont see why people are getting their panties in a bundle about this, the guy clearly posted that these where his own opinions, skill has different meanings to different people.


You my friend, have a good attitude.

I don't like unranked games that much. I'm just not feeling the pace and the intensity enough. Unless I feel like i need recreational time of course. Just keep doing what you do aright.

  • 08.11.2007 4:40 PM PDT

Greatest of all time

Posted by: xVxV3ndettA
Posted by: nickyfour92

Well if the easy most effective way of killing is using a glitch is considered cheating then i would definitely pick the harder one. Modding is a quick and easy way of killing so should all better players mod too?



nick, have you even read my post?

Here's the difference bettween killing with button combinations, moding, and cheating
Aside from Bungies official say that button combos are cheating.

Button combos:
---------------------
BC (button combos) require skill, practice, timing, accuracy, and good judgement
BC + Tactics = Pwnage

Cheating:
---------------------
Cheating doesn't require much focus, attention, or effort "in the long run take note" to achieve it's goal
Cheating = effortless win
Cheating + Tactics = still, effortless win

Modding:
---------------------
Same as cheating
Modding = effortless win
Modding = still, effortless win

All in all, cheating and modding don't require tactics. Button combinations do require much mroe effort, preciision ,timing, accuracy, and judgement than both modding and cheating. And its by a LOOOOOONNNGGG SHOT.


His logic falls under these assumptions. The logic you used is a manipulated version of this in order to better prove your point. I salute your effort, but as you can see I've just refuted it for the sake of shedding light on the topics matter.


My bad, didn't see you post. I never said they didn't take skill (thought i got that across clearly). I was just comparing two things that are cheating, regardless of the amount of skill they require or don't.

  • 08.11.2007 4:45 PM PDT

John 3:16


My bad, didn't see you post. I never said they didn't take skill (thought i got that across clearly). I was just comparing two things that are cheating, regardless of the amount of skill they require or don't.


Then your message is clear. Although, our response were focused on the idea that truly skilled players avoid button combinations.

I think that would be more accurately portrayed as "some people just play differently".
Button combos are fair, legitimate, and effective in demonstrating a person's skill. <-- Thats just extra info i decided to post

  • 08.11.2007 4:50 PM PDT
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The only reason you don't like superjumps is because you can't do them.

  • 08.11.2007 5:32 PM PDT
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I agree with your almighty wall of text.

  • 08.11.2007 5:51 PM PDT

This is probably going to get locked. The ninjas don't like posts about button glitches anymore.

And much as i would like to join in i can hold back. I suggest you all do before someone gets mad

  • 08.11.2007 6:23 PM PDT

"Ideas are bulletproof!"
-V-

Posted by: Stellulz
Who cares if you use button combos? its just a game. The point of the game is to have fun, not winning. am i the only one who still thinks that?


Yea, EXACTLY........ but unfortunately people cheating in a game usually constitutes a valid reason for me not having fun. Secondly, to head of comments, I also do not want to cheat them back in order to have fun. The most I do is a beat, crouch, beat when it comes to button combos, and thats not going to change any time soon.

  • 08.23.2007 8:31 PM PDT
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TheKilla88. I find most of your facts true but, however, some are not. Superbouncing can be debated to be a glitch or not, but in my opinion it is not. Superbounces do require skill, some more than others. While it does give an advantage, it is a fair advantage because it requires skill to successfully pull off a bounce. If two people are in a sniper fight, and one loses, does that mean one is cheating? Same thing for a superbounce, if one person gets up, it doesn't mean he is cheating, just that he can do the bounce and you can't. If you can do the bounce too, then do it and have the same advantage. For the person who cant bounce, its your fault that you can't bounce. Back to when I said superbouncing is not a glitch: it may or may not be, but until I hear from Bungie that it is not supposed to be in the game, then I assume that it was put in there on purpose. How else would all the bounces get you to the obvious sniping places? If it was a glitch it would put you in the air, but not direct you onto a small platfform high into the air. If you go to any map, look around for a high platform or building, you can't get up there on your own, can you? Now do a little research, there is most likely a bounce to get atop that building you were looking at.

As for button glitching, that is definetely a glitch. For example, in BXR after you melee, the x cancels it by tricking the game into thinking ur reloading, which is not supposed to happen. While it is a glitch, it still requires skill to master, so its ok to use in the game. It may be unfair, but again, its your fault for not learning it. For example, say someone just gets Halo 2, and they can't aim well, while a more experienced player can. And for BXR, say someone knows it well, and another person has just learned it. Aiming is in the game and is not a glitch, but so is BXR,and it is! So we need to accept that, and we can't take it out of the game now, so even though one is a glitch and the other not, its still in the game and people need to stop complaining about it. Instead of whining about it, how about practice your BXR, double, and quad shots and get as good ad the others?

  • 08.23.2007 9:04 PM PDT
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The difference between super jumping and button glitches is that with button glitches you can actually fight back once you learn the glitches. But once someone has super jumped with the sniper and they have the lead its pretty much game over. If the sniper was decent there would be no way he would let you bounce up there and kill him.

  • 08.23.2007 9:07 PM PDT
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Cheating is a debate that will never be solved.
His points are true.

However what constitutes skill for me is
Good teamwork
Know how to act in most situations
Fluent with most weapons
Good with main weapons such as Br and sniper rifle.
Knowing the maps.

  • 08.23.2007 9:10 PM PDT
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I thought this thread was dead once I posted the thread starter sucked, 4 wins and 15 losses in TSN for a level 4 or something.

  • 08.23.2007 10:20 PM PDT

Estne volumen in toga an solum tibi libet me videre?

Nothing suits me like a suit.

Nothing is true. Everything is permitted.

Posted by: I ToXiC ChAoS I
I thought this thread was dead once I posted the thread starter sucked, 4 wins and 15 losses in TSN for a level 4 or something.


I was surprised to see this thread still up to.

Anyways, the topic of interest still seems to be hanging around button glitches. I posted this paragraph in the first page, but im not sure how many people read it.

Using Button glitches, although technically doesn't make you any worse, sure as hell doesn't make you any better. I was trying to say that real pros don't need button glitches to gain the advantage. Although most pros use them, they would probably gain more technical skill by actually having to play without them. Thats why i am loving Halo 3, no button glitches (hopefully, there was a couple in the beta)

Summing it up in a surprisingly longer opinionated paragraph:

Button glitches, are in my view, glitches. They are not supposed to be used. I find them to really take a way from the tactics of a game of Halo. If you can aim up a headshot and shoot four perfect shots with a battle rifle and kill him, thats skill. If you line up for a second and press a couple buttons and he's dead, thats not really very tactical right there. Its more of... Press a button and win. In the multi player H3 vidoc, Bungie stated that the three things of combat are 'Weapons, Melee, and Grenades' Which we all use effectively (I hope). Using a glitch to hit and shoot someone really fast not only takes grenades out of the option, really takes meleeing when needed out to, its just another button.

That was my opinion on the topic, hoping to end argument on THIS subject. Feel free to continue talking about any other of the points I made, this one seems to be more argue than talk.

(I bolded opinionated for the reason of I've seen many threads like this get flamed and locked for people thinking the guy who made the thread thinks he knows everything)

  • 08.23.2007 10:57 PM PDT

after readin almost all the pages in this thread, I have come to the following conclusion's


1) on the topic of weapon glitching, while yes, doing the glitch itself does require a certain amount of skill but it takes away more then it add's

the more skilled player can win BR vs BR even if he goes 1 burst down via throwing a frag and then filling the air with BR rounds, other wise he should not have put himself in the position of going 1 burst down. people who use button combo's to bring it back to even or get an unfair victory are cheaters, unless the rules allow it (MLG rules). and for those who said, "you shouldnt put yourself in the posistion to get BXR'ed" I say you shouldnt put YOURSELF into a position where you need to BXR to win, if someone sneak's up on you with a shotgun or sword you deserve to die, no matter what.

2) real skill is determined by these

a) Accuracy
b) knowlege of weapons
c) knowlege of maps
d) knowlege of enemy
e) consistancy
f) tactics

on that last one, tactics isnt simply run around a start glitching because your about to get your arse kicked, its more you engage your enemy first and know when and where to retreat if they engage you.

  • 08.24.2007 12:51 AM PDT
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People who whine about glitching are people who aren't very good in the first place.

  • 08.24.2007 1:30 AM PDT

Posted by: Done DL
People who whine about glitching are people who aren't very good in the first place.


1) that is not true

2) how many times do you have to say it?

  • 08.24.2007 1:45 AM PDT
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It is true.

  • 08.24.2007 2:15 AM PDT

Posted by: Done DL
It is true.


proof?

some people that are good at button glitching may be good, very good or amazing at this game, but button glitches arnt what makes those people good, you can get amazingly bad people who pull off button glitches alot, they may win alot of fight due to button glitches, if they camp in a small area eg under sniper tower in lockout, all they do is wait for people to come through one of the doors and bxr theyre dead.

some people can be good, very good or amazing at halo 2 but cant show it due to th few poor things halo 2 does, some of these peple refuse to take several hours boring themeselves by going into custom games they dont want to do over and over to learn how to cheat in a game. or they think it will take alot more skill for them not to do that which will come into use in halo 3 which is out in one month. these poeple sometimes loose due to people who are actually worse than them but happen to get into range for a BXR which they would never have won the battle without.

most halo 2 character come under 4 descriptions, good and glitch, bad and glitch, good and dont glitch and bad and dont glitch, the people who seem to win most here are the people who are good and glitch since they beat the people which are bad and glitch in a fair fight and beat the good and dont glitch group when glitching is concerned but come out even in a fair fight. then in joint second is the bad and glitch with the good and dont glitch since they will beat each other in their own concerned areas. and in last is the bad and dont glitch, most of the bad and dont glitch community has left halo 2 due to always loosing to good players and loosing to bad players that cheat them.

and please tell me which takes more skill to do. beating someone down with a lunge which places your character aiming at the head of another then using basically a shortcut to shoot their unshielded head, or beating someone down with a lunge then having to jump back or strafe or w/e due to the other person trying to lunge at you and you having to keep aiming at their head waiting for the point where you can shoot, BXR/BXB takes away the risk element of what your enemy might do and what other enemies might do while your in the air(they could steal your kill or kill you) and it take away the skill of having to move and keep targeting the enemies head

  • 08.24.2007 3:36 AM PDT

Posted by: rapidfire56
The only reason you don't like superjumps is because you can't do them.

Wrong. Sorry to break it to you, but anyone can learn to master a dumb glitch like that when there's nobody around and it's totally unspecific to context. If anyone wanted to learn them (providing they don't have a PAL-50 setup, under which the bounce glitch does not occur) they can. That's why superbounces are not the same as learning to play well normally, or even button glitches. Partly because you are using them to give yourself an insurmountable advantage because you're the kind of weaselly guy who will do anything but play fair, and partly because the glitch is not even present under some refresh rates. So quit clapping yourself on the back.

  • 08.24.2007 3:46 AM PDT
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Thats not exactly true IMO. Its more like the people who are actually pretty good but run into a wall around levels 20-25 because they dont glitch. I say it like this, yes the button glitches take some amount of skill but there still cheating. Its like in baseball with Barry Bonds and the steroids. It still took skill for him to hit those home runs but he was still cheating cause he was on roids. So its really yes to both, pretty much if your good at the glitches your a skillful cheater, but still a cheater.

  • 08.24.2007 7:29 AM PDT
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Yes, anyone can master glitching, but people can also master the weapons. So how about instead of telling me that, you go out and work on both? Who cares if its unfair, if you dislike superbouncers then learn them urself and go kill them on their own bounce!

[Edited on 08.24.2007 7:56 AM PDT]

  • 08.24.2007 7:56 AM PDT

Posted by: Wet 92 Noodle
Who cares if its unfair

lmao

  • 08.24.2007 8:14 AM PDT
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Posted by: RhythmKiller
Posted by: Wet 92 Noodle
Who cares if its unfair

lmao

Think its funny? Im sorry you cant bounce, not my damn fault.

  • 08.24.2007 8:18 AM PDT