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This topic has moved here: Subject: What really constitues skill in Halo?
  • Subject: What really constitues skill in Halo?
Subject: What really constitues skill in Halo?
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I was being sarcastic in that post. Way to be a spelling/grammar -blam!-. I agree there are tons of little kids in these forums where you can barely read their post, but to critique every post you see on a halo forum is dumb.

  • 08.05.2007 3:04 PM PDT
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Here's my question...why hasn't this thread been closed yet? The Topic Starter said this is not about glitches, yet people still try to sit there and flame each other and -blam!- and complain about every little thing. Stop crying and go play halo...

-->Crimson Fire852

  • 08.05.2007 3:11 PM PDT
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I agree.

---->~~Done DL~~<----

  • 08.05.2007 3:12 PM PDT

This unit may wreck, or explode at any moment.

And coming on here spouting that you are the end all, be all of halo isn't. C'mon dude, you have skills, but let a little pressure off of your head, and we will get along fine. I have only been playing halo for about 4 months, so all I can do is get better. Nothing gets me fired up faster, than someone being arrogant. According to most people on this forum you are considered (just good) at a level 30. Show me a legit 40+ with no glitches and you might have something.

  • 08.05.2007 3:14 PM PDT
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So now you're saying you judge skill on levels? Wow. I played about 5-6 people here in these forums and the average score was 50-4. There's really no such thing as legit 40+, I call them lucky 40+, since they were lucky enough not to encounter cheaters. But again rank doesn't define your skill, obviously you haven't learned that.

  • 08.05.2007 3:17 PM PDT

This unit may wreck, or explode at any moment.

If you are that skilled you can get there without glitches, And no, rank does not prove skill, and glitching is cheating, so is deleveling, and anymore, you run into those things from level 1 on. You can do it if you try, I have faith in you.

  • 08.05.2007 3:21 PM PDT
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What? Your first and second sentences contradict each other. You basically said that if you are skilled you can get up to a high level, then you said rank doesn't prove skill.

  • 08.05.2007 3:23 PM PDT
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Your Kills and your assist divided by your deaths! at least in slayer!

  • 08.05.2007 3:32 PM PDT
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Posted by: mongoliancluster
Yes, those stats. I'm not obsessed with them, Just looking to see if what you said was backed up on the stats. I was however pleased that you do have stats listed, alot of the people on here talk about how good they are and have no stats linked to back it up. But you still have not answered the question.


If you look at my sig, the tag I'm using is Havok1228. You won't find no shot games on my Pandemic account. I also shoot on larger maps, its just maps like Warlock, Gemini, Lockout or Midship. On larger maps I'll still shoot.


Posted by: ICEMAN ASSASS1N
Posted by: FKxPandemic
Posted by: mongoliancluster
Posted by: FKxPandemic




Makes us look like fools? Here's your ignorance again. I play mostly customs, with other people who glitch. The people who join my party and refuse to make themsleves look like fools, ignoring doing something useful thats allowed that can only benefit them.


Looking at your games, it appears you mostly play team training, surely you don't glitch in those do you?


Why would I need to in training?

Most of the time I play training, i don't even shoot.


Yet you still managed like 18 kills in that game we played a few nights ago LOL


I was an SMG pro that game, DUUUHH.

  • 08.05.2007 4:39 PM PDT

Freedom of Speech does not equal "Freedom from Consequences when one speaks".

It is a right, and all rights have responsibilities associated with them. Ignore the responsibility, and you tend to lose the right.
Recon Number 54

Been following this thread with mild interest. I find it absolutely astounding the arrogance of some players here, which mirrors what I experience on Live. After playing over 10,000 H2 games in MM, I can say some things with absolute certainty. (Sorry for those who don’t like long posts – I type fast.)

As far as “skill” goes, once a player reaches a certain arbitrary level, say, around 20-25 or so with the current levels, there is very little additional “skill” one can attain to continue maintaining an edge over one’s opponents. Every one uses the same dodging/evading techniques, team strategies, and has comparable aim against other like players. I can say, quite literally, that only in 2 or 3 out of every 100 matches do I encounter a player or players who I can confidently say, beat me because of superior speed or skill. The other times I was beaten have to do with the conditions I’ll outline below.

The main factor has to do with connection superiority. Host vs. non-host, and varying degrees of latency between the parties connected to the host machine all affect the outcome of matches. Only the host is playing in real time, all others are reacting to delayed maps – some worse than others. Bullets miss their target, plasma pistols fire into space, stickies miss, etc., etc. Auto-aim/magnetism does not work with latency, and frame-rates can stutter making accurate shots impossible. Now, there is some delay built into the game to allow for minor differences in connections, but extremes in latency will result in easy kills for those with better connections. If you’ve never played on a poor connection, then you wouldn’t understand the disadvantage other players have. I’ve found that most people I’ve tried to explain this to, think it’s mumbo-jumbo. It’s real, and exists.

The next has to do with button-glitching. I don’t want to get into an argument again with anyone over whether or not it’s cheating. All I’m going to say is that glitching offers a tremendous advantage over non-glitching players. If all players are glitching, then its advantage is diminished, and most often will offer kills to the players with the least latency. I think this is why most players who button-glitch say that it’s no big deal, because much of the time they’re playing against others who do the same. However, against someone who is NOT glitching, there is absolutely no defense against it. As a matter of fact, in some cases, especially melees, button-glitching actually CANCELS the opponent’s ability to counter or evade. Even when all players are glitching, the kill goes to the player who initiates the sequence and has data received at the host machine first, since the kill-time is measured in milliseconds. I can’t tell you how many times I’ve been first to trigger a couple of bursts of BR fire, or melee first, only to lose the encounter. It’s not because I have “lesser skill” than the other, or somehow don’t melee as hard because I’m “weak” or something. The game simply isn’t programmed that way. The reasons have to do with what I’ve written above.

So, what is skill in H2? The original poster made an excellent dissection of its elements. However, unlike other sports, skill in H2 doesn’t continue to progress as one gains more and more experience, past a certain arbitrary level. You reach a limit of what was programmed into the game, and how maps can be used most efficiently, and the only way to continue winning against others of similar skill is through connection superiority, or manipulations of the game that not all players participate in. There are obvious methods of cheating that have to do with bridging, modding, etc., but those don’t involve gaming skill.

Since moving to a different part of the country a couple years ago, I’ve never had host. But I can tell you, the times I DID have host, I sometimes had 25-30 kills per 50-point game. Now I’m usually under 15, and sometimes even under 10. It’s simply not possible to get worse to this degree, and I’m not being matched against a higher-caliber player. These losses keep my current level between 15 and 22, which goes up and down depending upon how many quitters, de-levelers, players with better connections, organized teams, etc., etc., I get matched up with in a row.

I can tell you one "skill" I don't have, and that's the knowledge of what the different areas of the maps are commonly known by, so they can be called out. I don't plan to learn these, as I have too much else on my mind and just want to play for enjoyment. But, this does put me at a disadvantage when playing on a team where the others are depending upon these communications.

When someone trash-talks maliciously or exhibits other poor behavior because they beat you, it’s because they are cretins and don’t understand the real reason they won. I’ll be very glad when H3 is here, because I know Bungie has made some major improvements to even the playing field.

  • 08.05.2007 9:16 PM PDT
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Posted by: B3OWULF
Been following this thread with mild interest. I find it absolutely astounding the arrogance of some players here, which mirrors what I experience on Live. After playing over 10,000 H2 games in MM, I can say some things with absolute certainty. (Sorry for those who don’t like long posts – I type fast.)

As far as “skill” goes, once a player reaches a certain arbitrary level, say, around 20-25 or so with the current levels, there is very little additional “skill” one can attain to continue maintaining an edge over one’s opponents. Every one uses the same dodging/evading techniques, team strategies, and has comparable aim against other like players. I can say, quite literally, that only in 2 or 3 out of every 100 matches do I encounter a player or players who I can confidently say, beat me because of superior speed or skill. The other times I was beaten have to do with the conditions I’ll outline below.

The main factor has to do with connection superiority. Host vs. non-host, and varying degrees of latency between the parties connected to the host machine all affect the outcome of matches. Only the host is playing in real time, all others are reacting to delayed maps – some worse than others. Bullets miss their target, plasma pistols fire into space, stickies miss, etc., etc. Auto-aim/magnetism does not work with latency, and frame-rates can stutter making accurate shots impossible. Now, there is some delay built into the game to allow for minor differences in connections, but extremes in latency will result in easy kills for those with better connections. If you’ve never played on a poor connection, then you wouldn’t understand the disadvantage other players have. I’ve found that most people I’ve tried to explain this to, think it’s mumbo-jumbo. It’s real, and exists.

The next has to do with button-glitching. I don’t want to get into an argument again with anyone over whether or not it’s cheating. All I’m going to say is that glitching offers a tremendous advantage over non-glitching players. If all players are glitching, then its advantage is diminished, and most often will offer kills to the players with the least latency. I think this is why most players who button-glitch say that it’s no big deal, because much of the time they’re playing against others who do the same. However, against someone who is NOT glitching, there is absolutely no defense against it. As a matter of fact, in some cases, especially melees, button-glitching actually CANCELS the opponent’s ability to counter or evade. Even when all players are glitching, the kill goes to the player who initiates the sequence and has data received at the host machine first, since the kill-time is measured in milliseconds. I can’t tell you how many times I’ve been first to trigger a couple of bursts of BR fire, or melee first, only to lose the encounter. It’s not because I have “lesser skill” than the other, or somehow don’t melee as hard because I’m “weak” or something. The game simply isn’t programmed that way. The reasons have to do with what I’ve written above.

So, what is skill in H2? The original poster made an excellent dissection of its elements. However, unlike other sports, skill in H2 doesn’t continue to progress as one gains more and more experience, past a certain arbitrary level. You reach a limit of what was programmed into the game, and how maps can be used most efficiently, and the only way to continue winning against others of similar skill is through connection superiority, or manipulations of the game that not all players participate in. There are obvious methods of cheating that have to do with bridging, modding, etc., but those don’t involve gaming skill.

Since moving to a different part of the country a couple years ago, I’ve never had host. But I can tell you, the times I DID have host, I sometimes had 25-30 kills per 50-point game. Now I’m usually under 15, and sometimes even under 10. It’s simply not possible to get worse to this degree, and I’m not being matched against a higher-caliber player. These losses keep my current level between 15 and 22, which goes up and down depending upon how many quitters, de-levelers, players with better connections, organized teams, etc., etc., I get matched up with in a row.

I can tell you one "skill" I don't have, and that's the knowledge of what the different areas of the maps are commonly known by, so they can be called out. I don't plan to learn these, as I have too much else on my mind and just want to play for enjoyment. But, this does put me at a disadvantage when playing on a team where the others are depending upon these communications.

When someone trash-talks maliciously or exhibits other poor behavior because they beat you, it’s because they are cretins and don’t understand the real reason they won. I’ll be very glad when H3 is here, because I know Bungie has made some major improvements to even the playing field.


You are so incredibly wrong it's not even funny. You believe that button glitching and connection host play a bigger role than team work and individual ability. I'm sorry, you are neither good enough nor intelligent enough to make such claims.

  • 08.05.2007 9:22 PM PDT
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About the whole spew with connection. When you're off host and perhaps have a mediocre connection, what most players don't do is to adjust to the latency provided with the connection. Meaning you should play 1-2 seconds behind, as in lead the person a lot more when firing a BR, or to fire the shotgun at the right moment when they're walking towards you.

To me players level 20-27ish play the same, while players 28+ play a bit more advanced. Of course there are exceptions, due to the fact that many good players may not be able to advance in rank due to cheaters or just plain bad luck.

  • 08.05.2007 9:37 PM PDT

John 3:16

Thx ICEMAN ASSASS1N.

As far as I've seen, people still say cheating doesn't take skill. Well, in this case, specialized skills a.k.a. button combos.

There's a big problem with Halo 2. And that's the auto-aim. And of course, the fact that the cross-hair drags itself to the target. Button combo's is the leap that makes an oh-so easy 4 shot kill to a skill kill. Such as RRX.

THE MAJORITY, can 4 shot easily. The majority can pretty much master the basics in Halo 2. With enough time and effort.

Button combo's are what I call Limit Breakers. Better timing, focus, and reflexes are required, thus adding an extension of elements of skill. Which is why MLG banns super bouncing and approves button combinations.

According to bungie, it's cheating. So I think the word cheating shouldn't be used in the debate.

Those of you who disapprove of button combos, your not attacking the subjectively enough. Your simply saying this+cheating=no skill.
You need to prove how button combos aren't skill without using the stereotype given to these techniques.

Button combinations are completely fair. They can still be countered. And some can be countered easily. And your forgetting the fact that there are risks to buton combos.

Heres the list:
RRX (Double Shot)
- If you miss, the other person get's the advantage. if you screw up during execution, you give the opponent the advantage. Furthermore, aiming becomes 35-60% harder during execution

BXR
- It's predictable, can only be done with full clip or 0 spare ammo, ineffective against crouch, can be countered with BXB,

BXB
- Easy to get caught up in, has a tendency to miss, sacrifices shooting time, you might accidentally put yourself in a bad position... especially after missing.

Anything else share pretty much the same traits. Puts you in a heavy disadvantage if it fails, and they have specific conditions.
Unlike many of the game's basics, everything else is pretty much low risk.

Button combos aren't skill. They are techniques. Used by skill-full players. Just like no-scoping is a technique, used by skillful players, in the right situation. And like sticking grenades, they have their advantages, and disadvantages, in a balanced sort of way. Why balanced? Balanced they don't make the player unstoppable. They just add depth to the game's skill.

  • 08.05.2007 10:24 PM PDT

"Ideas are bulletproof!"
-V-

Button glitches won't make someone that was worse than you, better than you. They don't have that kind of improvement. You lost to people who were better than you with or without glitches.

Ohh, sure don't get me wrong there are so many people out there who could just plain out beat my face in at halo, the onlt thing that I'm saying is that there are so many kids that while your trying to play a game, especially one like HC, do nothing but double shoot to get the half second advantage to make up for the little amount less well that some people shoot. So rather than doing like some people do, which I also find annoying, but still less so, where people that are really good double shoot and bxr so that they can kill faster and with less effort. BUT, do you see how that is different than the punks that can pull off a bxr even only half the time that aren't good and sneak in some cheap kills on your team. Because then, assuming they never do win, you can very rarely play a fun game where you beat the other team only with better shooting and strategy...etc. And more realistically, you'll play lots of game that are absolutely NO fun and then even if you do win, WHO CARES! if you're not having fun than why play? So getting back on topic and to summarize, some people button combo the way "pro's" can noob combo, they do it to save effort and time, as apposed to punk kids that do it to get that little hang of an advantage on you so that they can go home and tell their moms about how many people they beat on Halo 2 that day. Basicaly, it's not players that are good that I have a problem with it's the ones that we ALL know that suck.

  • 08.06.2007 12:14 AM PDT

"Ideas are bulletproof!"
-V-


Button combo's are what I call Limit Breakers. Better timing, focus, and reflexes are required, thus adding an extension of elements of skill. Which is why MLG banns super bouncing and approves button combinations.

Well, actually the reason that MLG allows button combos is that there isn't a real "definite" way to tell if they cheated or if they just shot faster than you for example. So if you make it legal to do then there will never be a debate about weather they cheated because it is allowed. As apposed to bouncing, which in my opinion for the most part takes allot more creativity and reasoning power than pressing three buttons at the right speed to cheat some one, that can be told defiantly weather or not they did or did not do it by simply looking...ie. look at him, is he somewhere he can't usually be? If so, you can safely say that he's cheated.

  • 08.06.2007 12:28 AM PDT

Good topic, even though I think Team Snipers is a bad example, because it's more like RS than Halo, where it's all about using the right weapon at the right time, not using he same weapon a hole game.
Posted by: FKxPandemic

And I must add, RRX is probably the most skill based part of Halo.


BTW, That's hilarious. Can I paste that in my Signature???

  • 08.06.2007 1:01 AM PDT

Freedom of Speech does not equal "Freedom from Consequences when one speaks".

It is a right, and all rights have responsibilities associated with them. Ignore the responsibility, and you tend to lose the right.
Recon Number 54

Posted by: SOSLICK22
B3OWULF, lets play some LAN, then Lets play some LIVE...I'll show you that there is little difference.


I've heard this before, and while I've never played LAN, I remember what it was like when I had host. The difference between that experience, and what I have now, is night and day. When I was host, the frame rate was smooth and consistent, I could bring an opponent down in three or four bursts from the BR, grenades only had to land marginally close to get a kill -- or at least bring the shields down enough so that a couple bullets would finish them off, the "splash" from rockets causes much more damage, I always came out on top with melees, sniper zeroed in easily on the head even if the aim wasn't dead-on, etc., etc.

Like I said above, if you've never played with latency, you wouldn't understand how much of a disadvantage it is. You most likely have a great connection, so therefore, a LAN isn't much different.

Last night my latency was exceptionally bad, and I had a lot of quitters on my teams. I was often playing in the yellow, and even in the red. My level dropped from 16 to 13. Does this represent a change in skill? No. It's a representation of my results based upon my experiences during gameplay that I've outlined above in my previous post.

There are times that my connection will hit a "sweet spot" and will be about as perfect as possible, and I'll quickly rack up sometimes 10-12 kills in a matter of a minute or two. But that always goes away, and I'm back to conditions like they usually are. Having played both under poor conditions and great ones, I know that there is a huge difference.

[Edited on 08.06.2007 8:00 AM PDT]

  • 08.06.2007 7:42 AM PDT

Posted by: ICEMAN ASSASS1N
Kevin's post = breath of fresh air.
Take it from this guy people, he knows what he's talking about.

Second accounts are NOT cheating:
http://www.bungie.net/News/content.aspx?cid=13824

Posted by: Done DL
So now you're saying you judge skill on levels? Wow. I played about 5-6 people here in these forums and the average score was 50-4. There's really no such thing as legit 40+, I call them lucky 40+, since they were lucky enough not to encounter cheaters. But again rank doesn't define your skill, obviously you haven't learned that.


Best quote ive seen in a long time....Absolutely true.

  • 08.06.2007 7:57 AM PDT

Posted by: B3OWULF
Posted by: SOSLICK22
B3OWULF, lets play some LAN, then Lets play some LIVE...I'll show you that there is little difference.


I've heard this before, and while I've never played LAN, I remember what it was like when I had host. The difference between that experience, and what I have now, is night and day. When I was host, the frame rate was smooth and consistent, I could bring an opponent down in three or four bursts from the BR, grenades only had to land marginally close to get a kill -- or at least bring the shields down enough so that a couple bullets would finish them off, the "splash" from rockets causes much more damage, I always came out on top with melees, sniper zeroed in easily on the head even if the aim wasn't dead-on, etc., etc.

Please just stop posting. It is apparent that you have no idea what your talking about. LAN is 10,000% better than online play. There is no detectable latency and everyone has the same abilities. Don't say LAN is worse when YOU HAVE NEVER PLAYED IT!

Posted by: B3OWULF
Like I said above, if you've never played with latency, you wouldn't understand how much of a disadvantage it is. You most likely have a great connection, so therefore, a LAN isn't much different.

I know how much of a disadvantage it is with lag (again, your confusing the two). And yes, SOSLICK22 probable has a really good connection. He wouldn't be saying LAN and LIVE were the same if he had and average/below average connection.

Posted by: B3OWULF
Last night my latency was exceptionally bad, and I had a lot of quitters on my teams. I was often playing in the yellow, and even in the red. My level dropped from 16 to 13. Does this represent a change in skill? No. It's a representation of my results based upon my experiences during gameplay that I've outlined above in my previous post.

Rank doesn't represent skill. You can't base skill on a rank because of the quitters and cheaters. Those who say high rank=skill are the cheaters. (again, agreeing with you)

BTW, you are using latency wrong. EVERYONE has latency, except for host. Latency in its self is easy to counter act. Latency is the time it takes for the packets of information from the host takes to get to your Xbox. Where the problem is is with lag and the loss of packets. That is what really screws you over. You mixing up latency and lag. They are to different things.

SOSLICK22, LAN and LIVE, as I stated above, are on opposite ends of the "good" scale. LAN is %10,000 better than LIVE to the average LIVE player.

  • 08.06.2007 8:11 AM PDT
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I like to button glitch when people are nearby and I only have a BR it's fun to knock them with a BxR :)
R

[Edited on 08.06.2007 8:28 AM PDT]

  • 08.06.2007 8:28 AM PDT

Freedom of Speech does not equal "Freedom from Consequences when one speaks".

It is a right, and all rights have responsibilities associated with them. Ignore the responsibility, and you tend to lose the right.
Recon Number 54

Posted by: OG Fastforward

BTW, you are using latency wrong. EVERYONE has latency, except for host. Latency in its self is easy to counter act. Latency is the time it takes for the packets of information from the host takes to get to your Xbox. Where the problem is is with lag and the loss of packets. That is what really screws you over. You mixing up latency and lag. They are to different things.

SOSLICK22, LAN and LIVE, as I stated above, are on opposite ends of the "good" scale. LAN is %10,000 better than LIVE to the average LIVE player.


I know that LAN is better than Live -- that's a no-brainer. However, the most accurate way to describe it is that it's like having host.

I'm using the term latency correctly. I have perfect pings, and no packet loss. That is also a problem for some players, but thankfully, not an issue for me any longer. (BellSouth lines used to be bad this way.) I don't know how you say that latency is easy to counter -- it's inherent in the line between you and host, and many factors come into play, including the number of servers and connections your signal has to hop.

Round Trip Time is one measure of latency, and is what you describe. Another measure of latency is the Max Pause -- which is also a major problem with my connection. Yes, everyone except for host has latency to deal with, but once you're below about 60-70ms or so, everyone can play on generally a level playing field.


Posted by: OG Fastforward
Please just stop posting. It is apparent that you have no idea what your talking about.


Who elected you Forum Moderator? I think it's clear that I DO understand quite a bit.

  • 08.06.2007 9:05 AM PDT

This unit may wreck, or explode at any moment.

Posted by: Done DL
What? Your first and second sentences contradict each other. You basically said that if you are skilled you can get up to a high level, then you said rank doesn't prove skill.


I was actually talking about your skill, You have admitted to being able to beat everyone on here. That includes everyone that cheats in any form, correct? If this is true, you should be able to do it. Thus, the part about me having faith in you. I know I can't.

  • 08.06.2007 9:09 AM PDT

This unit may wreck, or explode at any moment.

By the way, the last few posts were exactly what I wanted, well thought out explanations of the issue. Calm opinions might just make us understand each other and end the flaming threads. ( for at least a few minutes). I am older than most of you, and have never gotten cheat codes for any game that I have played, and I will not let my kids do it either. For the gamers who glitch in thc, I have no problem with that, as I never play that variant. My main issue is when people use them in slayer or unranked games and think they are more skilled than the players who do not. If I cared about my rank, I would not let my kids play on my account. For me H2 is stress relief, I like close games with people of equal talent. But that enjoyment is taken away when a team 5 ranks under you deystroys you 50-28 by glitching, standbying or whatever. For those that only glitch in Thc I applaud you for having some honor.

  • 08.06.2007 9:22 AM PDT