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  • Subject: What really constitues skill in Halo?
Subject: What really constitues skill in Halo?
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Posted by: Done DL
SUMMARY OF TOPIC

Weapon glitching IS cheating.

Only posters on bungie and low level players care about it.

More advanced players don't care that it is cheating and still use it.
LMAO

  • 08.06.2007 3:22 PM PDT

John 3:16

Posted by: xVxV3ndettA
Thx ICEMAN ASSASS1N.

As far as I've seen, people still say cheating doesn't take skill. Well, in this case, specialized skills a.k.a. button combos.

There's a big problem with Halo 2. And that's the auto-aim. And of course, the fact that the cross-hair drags itself to the target. Button combo's is the leap that makes an oh-so easy 4 shot kill to a skill kill. Such as RRX.

THE MAJORITY, can 4 shot easily. The majority can pretty much master the basics in Halo 2. With enough time and effort.

Button combo's are what I call Limit Breakers. Better timing, focus, and reflexes are required, thus adding an extension of elements of skill. Which is why MLG banns super bouncing and approves button combinations.

According to bungie, it's cheating. So I think the word cheating shouldn't be used in the debate.

Those of you who disapprove of button combos, your not attacking the subjectively enough. Your simply saying this+cheating=no skill.
You need to prove how button combos aren't skill without using the stereotype given to these techniques.

Button combinations are completely fair. They can still be countered. And some can be countered easily. And your forgetting the fact that there are risks to buton combos.

Heres the list:
RRX (Double Shot)
- If you miss, the other person get's the advantage. if you screw up during execution, you give the opponent the advantage. Furthermore, aiming becomes 35-60% harder during execution

BXR
- It's predictable, can only be done with full clip or 0 spare ammo, ineffective against crouch, can be countered with BXB,

BXB
- Easy to get caught up in, has a tendency to miss, sacrifices shooting time, you might accidentally put yourself in a bad position... especially after missing.

Anything else share pretty much the same traits. Puts you in a heavy disadvantage if it fails, and they have specific conditions.
Unlike many of the game's basics, everything else is pretty much low risk.

Button combos aren't skill. They are techniques. Used by skill-full players. Just like no-scoping is a technique, used by skillful players, in the right situation. And like sticking grenades, they have their advantages, and disadvantages, in a balanced sort of way. Why balanced? Balanced they don't make the player unstoppable. They just add depth to the game's skill.


Does anyone listen to what I have to say? not that I have a problem with it. But I can easily predict what all of you are going to say. Your all using the same argument over and over, and repeating them isn't going to change anyone's mind.

  • 08.06.2007 4:24 PM PDT
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SUMMARY OF TOPIC

Weapon glitching IS cheating.

Only posters on bungie and low level players care about it.

More advanced players don't care that it is cheating and still use it.

  • 08.06.2007 4:29 PM PDT

The bible is the best book Ever!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I AM A PROUD CHRISTIAN. HALO IS AWESOME BUT GOD IS MUCH BETTER!!!!!!!!
Did you knew that JESUSdied for you?

Posted by: xVxV3ndettA
Posted by: xVxV3ndettA
Thx ICEMAN ASSASS1N.

As far as I've seen, people still say cheating doesn't take skill. Well, in this case, specialized skills a.k.a. button combos.

There's a big problem with Halo 2. And that's the auto-aim. And of course, the fact that the cross-hair drags itself to the target. Button combo's is the leap that makes an oh-so easy 4 shot kill to a skill kill. Such as RRX.

THE MAJORITY, can 4 shot easily. The majority can pretty much master the basics in Halo 2. With enough time and effort.

Button combo's are what I call Limit Breakers. Better timing, focus, and reflexes are required, thus adding an extension of elements of skill. Which is why MLG banns super bouncing and approves button combinations.

According to bungie, it's cheating. So I think the word cheating shouldn't be used in the debate.

Those of you who disapprove of button combos, your not attacking the subjectively enough. Your simply saying this+cheating=no skill.
You need to prove how button combos aren't skill without using the stereotype given to these techniques.

Button combinations are completely fair. They can still be countered. And some can be countered easily. And your forgetting the fact that there are risks to buton combos.

Heres the list:
RRX (Double Shot)
- If you miss, the other person get's the advantage. if you screw up during execution, you give the opponent the advantage. Furthermore, aiming becomes 35-60% harder during execution

BXR
- It's predictable, can only be done with full clip or 0 spare ammo, ineffective against crouch, can be countered with BXB,

BXB
- Easy to get caught up in, has a tendency to miss, sacrifices shooting time, you might accidentally put yourself in a bad position... especially after missing.

Anything else share pretty much the same traits. Puts you in a heavy disadvantage if it fails, and they have specific conditions.
Unlike many of the game's basics, everything else is pretty much low risk.

Button combos aren't skill. They are techniques. Used by skill-full players. Just like no-scoping is a technique, used by skillful players, in the right situation. And like sticking grenades, they have their advantages, and disadvantages, in a balanced sort of way. Why balanced? Balanced they don't make the player unstoppable. They just add depth to the game's skill.


Does anyone listen to what I have to say? not that I have a problem with it. But I can easily predict what all of you are going to say. Your all using the same argument over and over, and repeating them isn't going to change anyone's mind.


balance ? BXR beats the sword (often) that is not balance

well this is my lat post promise

  • 08.06.2007 4:30 PM PDT
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But, if the sword user was smart, he'd BXR with the sword!

  • 08.06.2007 4:32 PM PDT
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Posted by: Done DL
But, if the sword user was smart, he'd BXR with the sword!

Lol. I tried RRxing with a sword its an instant kill! :[)

  • 08.06.2007 4:41 PM PDT
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Location: Outlaws' Summit.

Posted by: xVxV3ndettA
Posted by: xVxV3ndettA
Thx ICEMAN ASSASS1N.

As far as I've seen, people still say cheating doesn't take skill. Well, in this case, specialized skills a.k.a. button combos.

There's a big problem with Halo 2. And that's the auto-aim. And of course, the fact that the cross-hair drags itself to the target. Button combo's is the leap that makes an oh-so easy 4 shot kill to a skill kill. Such as RRX.

THE MAJORITY, can 4 shot easily. The majority can pretty much master the basics in Halo 2. With enough time and effort.

Button combo's are what I call Limit Breakers. Better timing, focus, and reflexes are required, thus adding an extension of elements of skill. Which is why MLG banns super bouncing and approves button combinations.

According to bungie, it's cheating. So I think the word cheating shouldn't be used in the debate.

Those of you who disapprove of button combos, your not attacking the subjectively enough. Your simply saying this+cheating=no skill.
You need to prove how button combos aren't skill without using the stereotype given to these techniques.

Button combinations are completely fair. They can still be countered. And some can be countered easily. And your forgetting the fact that there are risks to buton combos.

Heres the list:
RRX (Double Shot)
- If you miss, the other person get's the advantage. if you screw up during execution, you give the opponent the advantage. Furthermore, aiming becomes 35-60% harder during execution

BXR
- It's predictable, can only be done with full clip or 0 spare ammo, ineffective against crouch, can be countered with BXB,

BXB
- Easy to get caught up in, has a tendency to miss, sacrifices shooting time, you might accidentally put yourself in a bad position... especially after missing.

Anything else share pretty much the same traits. Puts you in a heavy disadvantage if it fails, and they have specific conditions.
Unlike many of the game's basics, everything else is pretty much low risk.

Button combos aren't skill. They are techniques. Used by skill-full players. Just like no-scoping is a technique, used by skillful players, in the right situation. And like sticking grenades, they have their advantages, and disadvantages, in a balanced sort of way. Why balanced? Balanced they don't make the player unstoppable. They just add depth to the game's skill.


Does anyone listen to what I have to say? not that I have a problem with it. But I can easily predict what all of you are going to say. Your all using the same argument over and over, and repeating them isn't going to change anyone's mind.


My bad, I forgot about this thread LOL there's so many of these topics on skill/button combo.

Anywho, that was a really well thought out post. If this site had a rep system I'd so +rep you :-)

More people need to make posts like this, it makes for an actual debate as opposed to mudslinging by two sides not getting anywhere.

  • 08.06.2007 4:50 PM PDT
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Posted by: I ToXiC ChAoS I
When you suck at halo your oppion doesn't count.


OH NOES

*leaves Bungie.net forever*

  • 08.06.2007 4:51 PM PDT

Weapon glitches take a lot of skill. And before you reply to this i dont care what you think, i will laugh at your reply, and im not even gonna look at this thread again so it doesn't even matter.

  • 08.06.2007 5:41 PM PDT
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Posted by: Sharpest
OMG you teh suxzorz


I agree wholeheartedly.

  • 08.06.2007 6:20 PM PDT

John 3:16

balance ? BXR beats the sword (often) that is not balance

well this is my lat post promise


The only real weakness to the sword is range when used at it's highest potential. And the thing about the sword is, that using it at it's highest potential is so easy that countering it gets too tough.

Of course, there's ways to take it down. That's obvious. But whats not obvious to you is that the sword puts the user at low risk.
It pretty much owns anything at Dual Wielding Range. And probobly even farther.

And it's not hard to figure out how to maneuver with it.
The idea that it can be beaten is not proof enough to say that it balances the game.

It's the fact that the sword, is probobly the most lazy weapon in the game. Unlike the rocket, where you have to aim, lead, and reload.
Halo is a game of chaos in most cases, where people are at a range where dual wielding reaches it's optimum range. Or to put it more accurately, a little farther than the optimum range of dual wielding.

Even though the stero-type "sword noob" doesn't do anything but put a label, the word's reflect the swords characteristics. Easy to use, easy to kill with, easy to conquer with. that, destroys balance.


BXR smg is pretty good, just like BXR sword, and BXR brute shot. There's less BS thanks to button combos.

Much thanks ICE, I'm glad to see there are people who are willing to first think reasonably and rationally than make a thousand excuses as to why "X idea" pisses them off.

[Edited on 08.06.2007 6:29 PM PDT]

  • 08.06.2007 6:26 PM PDT
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Posted by: TheKilla88
Posted by: FKxPandemic
I disagree with the button glitches. I'm not arguing that they aren't exploiting glitches, or cheating blah blah blah. But its certainly ignorant to say that anyone who uses them is not good. A majority of people who use button glitches, would be just as good without them. The people that rely on button glitches aren't good, but most people don't rely on them. Your opinion basically said all halo pros aren't good at Halo. Funny thing is, they were pros without glitches, and still would be. they don't need them, and button glitches do not have a big enough impact on a player to make him good. A bad player using button glitches does not get any better.


See? Unlike in the Halo 3 forum, people can disagree with eachother without saying 'OMG you teh suxzorz

I see your point. I worded it funny, but here you go:

Using Button glitches, although technically doesn't make you any worse, sure as hell doesn't make you any better. I was trying to say that real pros don't need button glitches to gain the advantage. Although most pros use them, they would probably gain more technical skill by actually having to play without them. Thats why i am loving Halo 3, no button glitches (hopefully, there was a couple in the beta)
Very true dude. I never used glitches in halo 2 and I was owning in the beta because of that reason.

  • 08.07.2007 1:49 PM PDT

John 3:16

Posted by: XS5
Posted by: TheKilla88
Posted by: FKxPandemic
I disagree with the button glitches. I'm not arguing that they aren't exploiting glitches, or cheating blah blah blah. But its certainly ignorant to say that anyone who uses them is not good. A majority of people who use button glitches, would be just as good without them. The people that rely on button glitches aren't good, but most people don't rely on them. Your opinion basically said all halo pros aren't good at Halo. Funny thing is, they were pros without glitches, and still would be. they don't need them, and button glitches do not have a big enough impact on a player to make him good. A bad player using button glitches does not get any better.


See? Unlike in the Halo 3 forum, people can disagree with eachother without saying 'OMG you teh suxzorz

I see your point. I worded it funny, but here you go:

Using Button glitches, although technically doesn't make you any worse, sure as hell doesn't make you any better. I was trying to say that real pros don't need button glitches to gain the advantage. Although most pros use them, they would probably gain more technical skill by actually having to play without them. Thats why i am loving Halo 3, no button glitches (hopefully, there was a couple in the beta)
Very true dude. I never used glitches in halo 2 and I was owning in the beta because of that reason.


The beta had a bunch of casual type players. I did better in H3 beta than I do in H2 and I use button combos in lan games and such. >_>
Most people I've fought with don't depend on glitches. I don't see why people think button combos are so uber.

  • 08.07.2007 2:12 PM PDT
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Plus I Think it's funny how all these pros (most of them that I know) think there so good for BXRing. LOL I could care less it's a game. There just yelling BXR in your ear when all there doing is gaining a number? That number doesn't mean anything in real life. Just shows how much of a life they don't have.

  • 08.07.2007 2:15 PM PDT
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First, I'd say I agree with the original post more than any other "what's a good player" thread I've read. Now on to the ever-debated topic of button glitches. Button glitches exist, they are not easy to do/use effectively, and I really don't have a problem with good players using them against each other. What I have a problem with is that I'm not a hardcore gamer who wants to have to practice a specific skill to get good at a game. With almost any game I can get very good by just playing the game, learning how it works, etc. etc. This is true with halo up until you have to practice button glitches to step up to the next level. Now I don't really want to be as good as the level 40+ players, but I'd like it if people who use button glitches stuck with their own kind where it is less of an unfair advantage. I'd like to be able to become as good as I can just playing the game as it was meant to be played and not have to deal with people who spend hours every day practicing specific button combinations. Another game just like this is super smash brothers for the gamecube. Anyone who has played that game can attest to the fact that the uppermost players use tons of various button combos and glitches to move faster and kill more efficiently. I never wanted to compete in tournaments or anything so I never spent tons of time learning how to hit 7 buttons within a second of each other, but it was annoying to me when I had to play against people who did and who just annihilated me because of the advantage the glitches gave them. That's about all I have to say about that.

  • 08.07.2007 3:06 PM PDT

This unit may wreck, or explode at any moment.

Posted by: Explodsive
First, I'd say I agree with the original post more than any other "what's a good player" thread I've read. Now on to the ever-debated topic of button glitches. Button glitches exist, they are not easy to do/use effectively, and I really don't have a problem with good players using them against each other. What I have a problem with is that I'm not a hardcore gamer who wants to have to practice a specific skill to get good at a game. With almost any game I can get very good by just playing the game, learning how it works, etc. etc. This is true with halo up until you have to practice button glitches to step up to the next level. Now I don't really want to be as good as the level 40+ players, but I'd like it if people who use button glitches stuck with their own kind where it is less of an unfair advantage. I'd like to be able to become as good as I can just playing the game as it was meant to be played and not have to deal with people who spend hours every day practicing specific button combinations. Another game just like this is super smash brothers for the gamecube. Anyone who has played that game can attest to the fact that the uppermost players use tons of various button combos and glitches to move faster and kill more efficiently. I never wanted to compete in tournaments or anything so I never spent tons of time learning how to hit 7 buttons within a second of each other, but it was annoying to me when I had to play against people who did and who just annihilated me because of the advantage the glitches gave them. That's about all I have to say about that.


Very well put.

  • 08.07.2007 3:38 PM PDT
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Weapon Control.

  • 08.07.2007 3:39 PM PDT
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ok, i'm just going to put in my opinion, whether covered already or not.

To start off, button combos. For me i can own most people on a 1 v 1 legit br battle, but i also get owned when someone double shoots. the button combos take skill and practice to use and it is perfectly fine. i know that it is annoying to have it used on me, but if i wanted to own him, then i need to learn how to do it myself. button combos are the next step in getting better after perfecting accuracy.

Now superbounces i believe are cool to learn in customs, but are unnecessary. if you need to superbounce to get kills then you suck, that's the bottom line.

Weapon efficiency. It is good to be good at all weapons, but it's not completely necessary. really if you can shoot and beat down, then you are efficient at most weapons. You also have to pick the right weapon for the right situation. the noob combo is very annoying because it requires less skill then just normal br'ing. i think that noob combos should only be used when facing a noob comboer.

Knowing map. People say that camping constitutes that you suck, but it shows skill. If i can sit at sniper tower and kill you everytime, then why should i leave. But this also brings me to sword and shotguning. I only believe in camping if both my opponent and myself have an equal advantage at killing each other. For instance, i will not sit at one spot with a sword if my opponent does not have a shotgun. Now i will use a sword if i seem to fail killing you with a br. I am more of the "equal until flasking" type, where i will fight on with equal weapons until i am out of shields, then i will do whatever it takes to win. So basically camping should be a competition of a fair one v one invasion.

grenades. using grenades is part of the game. if i can kill someone more efficiently with a grenade then a br then i will. if you think i am grenade whoring then you have the same grenades, use them.

that's it for me, thanks

  • 08.08.2007 9:46 PM PDT

To be good in halo good aim is almost necesary, the better the aim the faster you can have your sensetivity can go to while you still play well, I personally have mine on 2 because I have terrible aim, and I'm rank 18 in snipers and team slayer. The people you find at rank 50 or close to that usually have their sensetivity to 8, 9, or 10.
You also need to be fast, spawning luckily may make your whole game....but if you know the spawns for snipers and br's and any power weapons it helps big time.
If you use a "noob combo" I would never call you a noob unless I was joking, but using the weapons on the map that help you should not be a bad thing, yes...the plasma pistol is a little over powered but there are some people(like my friend) that can pick up a noob combo and totally miss a person and get pwned themselves. I don't think people should be called noobs because they use a weapon a few times if they are behind, and even if they are ahead it means they got to the weapons faster than you, and may be your fault that you weren't using your "skills" to try to kill the person rushing for the weapon.
Cheating is very irritating to people who are on the short end of the stick, if you want any dignity never use BXR...I was having a little debate today with my friend about how it is cheating and he disagreed. Super jumps can be fun but honestly if someone superjumps and gets about one kill on you you should just take him/her out with whatever you can...I'm terrible sniping people from that high, but that's just me. I know many people think that superjumping is cheating but I think it is just fun, I never use it to kill people...but that's just me, you may have your opinion but I don't care to hear it.

Sorry if this is too long for anyone to read....but I don't care. Read it if you feel you need to. And don't get too angry if something upsets you about what I wrote.





[Edited on 08.08.2007 10:10 PM PDT]

  • 08.08.2007 10:09 PM PDT

Posted by: Cruxis
Now superbounces i believe are cool to learn in customs, but are unnecessary. if you need to superbounce to get kills then you suck, that's the bottom line.

agreed


[Edited on 08.08.2007 10:12 PM PDT]

  • 08.08.2007 10:12 PM PDT

God is dead

Halo skill boils down to moving some pixels around a TV screen quickly, accurately and pressing buttons. It is amusing that people who have conquered this art (not me admittedly) often believe it makes them very tough guys in the real world.

  • 08.09.2007 3:44 AM PDT

in halo 2 skill and winning are 2 completely different things, you explained skill up top in the first post but whoever wins is decided by a factor of host advantage, cheating, team colour, overpowered power weapons, skill and good team mates

host advantage is a big thing then different counties are involved and can single handedly be the thing stopping people from winning ie: host shotty vs off host shotty.

i dont go by a game without someone cheating, in team slayer its button combos and the rare superbounce, and in team snipers its the occasional superbounce, if theyre good without cheating dont cheat, alot of the time someone glitches, they wouldnt have won if they didnt. one single glitch can turn around the scores, BXR the shotty guy and then camp with shotty. some say if ou dont like glitches your bad with them, but im not bad with glitches i just get badly done over by host advantage when it comes to glitching so i dont bother. i only superbounce in custom games because it really does give one team a huge advantage, EG one team goes 1 point ahead then all superbounce then the other team cant make it back.

some people think team colour doesnt matter but i do, i have a record of my last 1000 ranked matches, in over 65% of them i have been on blue team, and i have only won 40% of those matches with a kps spread of 0.8 while in red team i am in 35% of the time and have won 65% of those matches with a kpd spread of 1.2, explain that? is red team more camouflaged? do i just like red more? or does red team more often than not get host advantage?

there are several weapons i feel are far too powerful and easy to use, take the plasma pistal for example, itsaimposible to miss anyone really unless theyre behind a brick wall, then they have no shield and it takes a single grenade, bullet w/e to finish them off, cheap due to the easiness and quickness of it, the sword it really depends on host advantage, 50% of the time my sword lunges miss due to people not being where im told they are. the rocket launcher renders vehicles in all matches completly useless and its insane when it comes to killing people, the only reason i miss everytime is because of the stupid auto aim, i aim somewhere and theres someone somewhat nearby and the rocket misses them both. the only 2 things i find wrong with the sniper is that it fires to quickly for people to react, especially when host is using it, they see you and fire 3 times before you know youve been hit once. also when a pixel of the head of someone is peaking over a wall they can snipe you.

you have pointed out everything that skill is in the original post

and to really perform well you need team mates that dont go negative every game they play, im ussually put on a team where at least one person goes -6 when i have a good score, also a team that works together andwatches each others backs, i hate it when i get a sniper and get assassinated due to my team running off and leaving me close range defenceless

there i think ive pointed out all the main things that constitutes to people winning and why skill has not as much to do with halo2 as it should. i consider myself skilled but im ussually loosing to american host advantage (i live in england) or because of team mates that dont perform well. there is the odd occasion where the other team uses cheap tactics like the plasma pistol, sword or rocket whoring or even the glitching that keeps goin on, if theres anything ive missed out someone please add to my list

  • 08.09.2007 5:54 AM PDT

On Waypoint I'm rocketFox;
http://halo.xbox.com/forums/members/rocketfox/default.aspx

Old GTs; RebelRobot, Flamedude

What constitutes real skill in Halo is using both weapon skill and tactics to best effect. You could be a great sniper but if you don't know how to apply that to an objective game you may as well not play. Just as you might have a great game plan but if you can't stick someone or use any weapon effectively you may as well not play. Anyone who can use both of these together has proper skill.

Glitching or button combos are for people who need an extra edge and are not prepared or able to exceed their normal skill levels. And thats fine, if there is a loophole people will exploit it. I personally think its sneaky and not the intentions of the game designers. You aren't meant to be able to superjump but we all do it now and then. Just as cheating (e.g. standby) may take effort but its effort wasted, like learning to run fast going backwards - totally pointless, and I wonder why cheaters don't just practice. Surely its more rewarding beating an opponent honestly using your wit than beating them through glitches or cheats.

I'm hoping that there arent so many glitches in Halo 3 and then we can finally see who's good and who's been hiding behind their glitches.

  • 08.09.2007 10:11 AM PDT