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  • Subject: No religion in the Flood; yet evolution and big bang are permitted?
Subject: No religion in the Flood; yet evolution and big bang are permitted?

"Science without religion is lame. Religion without science is blind." - Albert Einstien

Posted by: webb90
Posted by: UL7IM4 G33K
Although, I do feel that public schools should teach all religions, or at least teach the kids about them. It does not pay to be an ignorant atheist (like most are).


Stereotypes like that are what I hate to see.

Its more from observation than stereotype. Alot of atheists only are atheists because they are rebelling against the norm or are ignorant and afraid of religion. Now that doesn't mean all atheists are, just many I have run into, and I have talked to ALOT of them.

[Edited on 08.26.2007 11:22 AM PDT]

  • 08.26.2007 11:22 AM PDT
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Fair enough.

Have you talked to a lot of them personally? Or on message boards online? Because I actually have noticed how upstuck and aroggant most atheists are on message boards. But I assure you that MOST atheists are definately not like that, and I'm sorry that this small minority of the atheist community has made you view us in such a way. But I understand that if enough people in a particular group piss you off in a short space of time, the assumptions you'll have about those people in the future will be hard to rectify.

I will forever believe that all -blam!--blam!-s wear sparkly glasses and pink bathing suits due to an unfortunate -blam!- pride parade outside my home when I was 4 :P

EDIT:Guess the missing words and you win a free pen!

[Edited on 08.26.2007 11:35 AM PDT]

  • 08.26.2007 11:33 AM PDT

"Science without religion is lame. Religion without science is blind." - Albert Einstien

Well, I don't hate atheists, i just know that alot of them are arrogant about their belief in nothing. I have run into a few great atheists though, who really do know what they are talking about. Of course even they block out things that I do work extremely hard to point out to them.

  • 08.26.2007 11:36 AM PDT
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The Marty Army

Ah, look at the lonely people...

I'm going to have to agree with Foman, it's gotta be terribly frustrating for people who believe their religion's story of human creation who cannot discuss it while other, non religion-based theories are permitted for discussion. I don't think that's right.

This seems, to me, like a classic case of the double standard, looking at it prima facie.

  • 08.26.2007 11:45 AM PDT
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Posted by: UL7IM4 G33K
Well, I don't hate atheists, i just know that alot of them are arrogant about their belief in nothing. I have run into a few great atheists though, who really do know what they are talking about. Of course even they block out things that I do work extremely hard to point out to them.


Well that's good to know =)
But still you shouldn't try to force your beliefs upon someone else. Trying to point out things in an effort to make them spiritual, is the same as atheists waving science in creationists faces whenever they see one. Let people choose for themselves I say.

Although that may be hard for someone who's faith considers "spreading the word" a virtue lol. I guess we're screwed =)

  • 08.26.2007 12:05 PM PDT
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Posted by: webb90
Posted by: UL7IM4 G33K
Well, I don't hate atheists, i just know that alot of them are arrogant about their belief in nothing. I have run into a few great atheists though, who really do know what they are talking about. Of course even they block out things that I do work extremely hard to point out to them.


Well that's good to know =)
But still you shouldn't try to force your beliefs upon someone else. Trying to point out things in an effort to make them spiritual, is the same as atheists waving science in creationists faces whenever they see one. Let people choose for themselves I say.

Although that may be hard for someone who's faith considers "spreading the word" a virtue lol. I guess we're screwed =)


Nah, there's a difference between forcing your beliefs (or lack thereof) on someone else and "spreading the Word". Namely, "forcing" your beliefs on someone normally isn't on par with what you should be doing according to your beliefs. Forcing is more an arrogant, "I'm right and you're wrong" way of saying things. This manner of speaking, with atheists, Christians, and many other religions alike, is prevalent on the internet, unfortunately.
"Spreading the Word" is only really done out of respect and care for another person. And if they don't want to hear it, then their wishes are respected.
And that's ultimately the point here. Regardless of what we're talking about here, everyone has the right to believe what they want to, and everyone else needs to respect that. Members here should really keep that in mind regardless of what is being discussed, but it plays a vital role in this scenario.

  • 08.26.2007 12:23 PM PDT

"Science without religion is lame. Religion without science is blind." - Albert Einstien

Posted by: webb90
Posted by: UL7IM4 G33K
Well, I don't hate atheists, i just know that alot of them are arrogant about their belief in nothing. I have run into a few great atheists though, who really do know what they are talking about. Of course even they block out things that I do work extremely hard to point out to them.


Well that's good to know =)
But still you shouldn't try to force your beliefs upon someone else. Trying to point out things in an effort to make them spiritual, is the same as atheists waving science in creationists faces whenever they see one. Let people choose for themselves I say.

Although that may be hard for someone who's faith considers "spreading the word" a virtue lol. I guess we're screwed =)

It is more trying to get him to acknowledge what I have said rather than them believing it is true. Most of the time they dodge and beat around the bush, usually attacking the basic structure of my arguments rather than debating the topic at hand.

  • 08.26.2007 12:26 PM PDT

I am a Floodian

Do I think discussion about the validity and proof behind evolution should be allowed? Yes. However, I believe the moment any side, even in the original post, a member attacks another for his beliefs, religious or scientific, the thread should be locked instantly. No questions asked.

  • 08.26.2007 12:51 PM PDT
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The problem at the heart of this matter is that there can be no real debate about a Theistic belief, where all 'evidence' comes from scripture. Scientific debate is relatively easy: Person A believes one theory, person B, another. If person A can cite a piece of evidence that categorically confirms his theory, then B really has nowhere to go but to concede that A's is the correct position (if the evidence is to be found in a respectable journal).

Religious debate, on the other hand, basically comes down to: Person A's book says one thing, person B's, another. No evidence will sway either, nothing will convince either to change his or her point of view. Science is evidence vs. evidence. Religion is undeniable, unwaverable truth vs. everyone else.

There can be no religious 'debate', only argument and fighting. Thus even adding their side to a talk about evolution or the Big Bang is fruitless; the people talking doubtless know that there are some people who believe that a deity created us all from nothing, but those people have no evidence or reason to back up their claims and so won't be adding anything by weighing in with "God did it". Religious positions add nothing to scientific talks... Philosophical ones, perhaps, but scientific ones... No.

Posted by: UL7IM4 G33K
Most of the time they dodge and beat around the bush, usually attacking the basic structure of my arguments rather than debating the topic at hand.
Hilarious, that brightened my day [;

[Edited on 08.26.2007 1:00 PM PDT]

  • 08.26.2007 12:56 PM PDT

"Science without religion is lame. Religion without science is blind." - Albert Einstien

Exactly Saint. People who argue their side as truth in this argument are the ones who end up insulting and flaming. What people need to realize is that a religious argument is not about who is right or wrong, but informing the opposing side of your standpoint. In the end, I am usually arguing for recognition of my point of view rather than to prove them wrong. Get them to acknowledge the possibility, however small it may be in their mind.

Proving either of the sides wrong is completely futile.

  • 08.26.2007 1:06 PM PDT
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Posted by: DarkishRav3n
True that science is not a religion, but evolution and the big bang are just that...science, and that science is theory.

I think it would be a wonderful thing to learn about in school...in science class or whatnot, if I was also taught that is was a theory. However, the unfortunate thing today is that it is taught as a fact.


One could argue that reliegeon is always presented as fact too : S
As a "mellow" atheist, I have no problem discussing reliegeon and stuff. It has obviously influenced the Halo games greatly... there are many discussions on these threads about it if I remember right.
The problem is that, while I take no offense to you dissing science and its shortcomings, it's a sure bet a religeous person will have a fit if you present facts that are contrary to their beliefs. The whole arrangement is more to protect the religeous than to stifle them. I could argue all day with logic to disprove reliegeon, and you could argue all day with faith to disprove mine. They're two completely different schools of though and it's not fun for either party to try to compete with the other.
Posted by: UL7IM4 G33K

Proving either of the sides wrong is completely futile.

Yeah. Like I said, it's different ways of thinking. I, personally, feel logic and reason are superior to faith. But that's an opinion of mine. You will never be able to change what I consider important in determining fact, and therin lies the problem of arguing one way or the other.


[Edited on 08.26.2007 1:10 PM PDT]

  • 08.26.2007 1:06 PM PDT
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Jeez guys, I was just trying to make a joke.

  • 08.26.2007 1:16 PM PDT

Posted by: Recon Number 54

You misunderstand and thereby illustrate the purpose and point of my post.

I did not express my own personally held beliefs. I explained why certain topics are restricted and others are allowed until they pass a certain point. I expressed my dismay at the fact that people are unable to allow others to have alternate visions of "how it all works".

It appears that you took my attempt at espousing tolerance as an attack on your personal views, and are attempting to "defend them" from what you perceive as an attack. Please don't. I didn't express my own theological views and I don't want to hear yours. THAT alone is how an allowed topic will get locked.

Even if I share your beliefs (and you cannot know if I do or do not), I do not think that such personally held views are best expressed in this venue. Especially when we made a personal agreement (and gave our word) to follow the rules and restrictions of this site.

Are your personal beliefs so important that they demand you to break your own promises?


My bad...I was referring to what you said-

Quote- "how can a loving god allow pain and suffering to exist?"

I didn't see your post as an attack, I wasn't actually really trying to defend myself...again...sorry...:p

  • 08.26.2007 1:35 PM PDT

Bungie.net rule #1: You have no rights, including no freedom of speech. "Fair" isn't an issue. And as Recon said, if an evolutionist starts preaching about how all creationalists are stupid or vice versa then the thread will be locked.

[Edited on 08.26.2007 1:43 PM PDT]

  • 08.26.2007 1:38 PM PDT

"Science without religion is lame. Religion without science is blind." - Albert Einstien

Posted by: Ryanman7Posted by: UL7IM4 G33K

Proving either of the sides wrong is completely futile.

Yeah. Like I said, it's different ways of thinking. I, personally, feel logic and reason are superior to faith. But that's an opinion of mine. You will never be able to change what I consider important in determining fact, and therin lies the problem of arguing one way or the other.


Well, in my mind, logically, this universe couldn't exist without a creator. Be it God or some other deity. Facts are facts, but that doesn't that they disprove God's existence. In fact, logically, you cannot disprove or prove the existence of God. That is the only reason why the argument is circular, there is no overwhelming and argument ending proof of either side being right.

  • 08.26.2007 2:29 PM PDT
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...and that is exactly why religious discussion shouldn't be allowed. It's a circular argument, an argument from authority... If there's a debate about a scientific topic, there is nothing religion can add to it.

  • 08.26.2007 2:38 PM PDT
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Posted by: Lord Butters I
...if an evolutionist starts preaching about how all creationalists are stupid or vice versa then the thread will be locked.


Sorry to splice your post, but I think that is the only inevitable result of these debates. When neither side acknowledges the arguments of the other, we turn to other lines of reason. Specifically, "your argument is flawed because you are flawed", or something like that. For example:

"Your reasoning is wrong because I don't believe in God/there is no way the theory of creation is wrong."

"Well, if you won't acknowledge my point of view, I'm afraid that makes you an arrogant/ignorant person who refuses to listen to anybody else."

"Now you're trying to force your belief/theory on me"

"You're stupid"

"No, you're stupid."


I think everybody just wants to be acknowledged in their opinions, but simultaneously we don't want to acknowledge another person's opinions, because that would be like subscribing to the opposite theory, which would clearly cause anybody to burst into flame, no matter which theory they subscribe to.

  • 08.26.2007 2:39 PM PDT
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Posted by: Saint
The problem at the heart of this matter is that there can be no real debate about a Theistic belief, where all 'evidence' comes from scripture. Scientific debate is relatively easy: Person A believes one theory, person B, another. If person A can cite a piece of evidence that categorically confirms his theory, then B really has nowhere to go but to concede that A's is the correct position (if the evidence is to be found in a respectable journal).

Religious debate, on the other hand, basically comes down to: Person A's book says one thing, person B's, another. No evidence will sway either, nothing will convince either to change his or her point of view. Science is evidence vs. evidence. Religion is undeniable, unwaverable truth vs. everyone else.

There can be no religious 'debate', only argument and fighting. Thus even adding their side to a talk about evolution or the Big Bang is fruitless; the people talking doubtless know that there are some people who believe that a deity created us all from nothing, but those people have no evidence or reason to back up their claims and so won't be adding anything by weighing in with "God did it". Religious positions add nothing to scientific talks... Philosophical ones, perhaps, but scientific ones... No.

Posted by: UL7IM4 G33K
Most of the time they dodge and beat around the bush, usually attacking the basic structure of my arguments rather than debating the topic at hand.
Hilarious, that brightened my day [;


You're essentially saying that if someone has religion, stating their opinions and beliefs are pointless.
Scientific debate is relatively straightforward, but if a scientific theory contradicts something in a certain religion, I don't see why someone can't interject and say that they think otherwise. If you ate salad for every meal for ten years to lose weight, it worked well, and then someone came in and said that studies show that salad is bad for you, wouldn't you want to say something so that others will know that they should choose whether or not salad will be good for them? I know, bad example. What's a point without a counterpoint? There actually can be effective religious debate, and there can be debates between religious view and scientific ones. Just because no one can win the debate doesn't mean that it can't happen, and although they normally turn into a big argument, sometimes they don't.
I completely respect the views and beliefs of Atheists. At the same time, i don't think it's right that you can tell me that I can't express my beliefs on a subject, but you can, because your views are "scientific" and mine are religious.

Plus, are you in the same forums as I am? There is never a situation where Person A convinces Person B that Person B was wrong, no matter what they're talking about. Everyone is stubborn about everything. Discussion here is basically everyone stating their own opinions, and eventually someone comes in and attacks one, pisses everyone off, and the thread gets locked. That happens no matter what the thread is about.

  • 08.26.2007 2:41 PM PDT

2:10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
2:11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
2:12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

It makes no sense to allow evolution yet silence creationism because creationists might want to present their arguments against evolution but they can't because it's against the rules. So you have a bunch of evolutionists agreeing with each other yet you'll see no disagreements because all the disagreements are shunned.

And then you have all the "how did the world come into existence" topics where you'll get answers about big bang and all that, yet nothing about God, and if there is, the topic gets locked. You have all kinds of scientific topics that can be explained with creationism just as easily as they can be explained with evolution (sometimes even MORE SO) but we cannot even speak of that stuff because it's against the rules.

[Edited on 08.26.2007 2:49 PM PDT]

  • 08.26.2007 2:46 PM PDT
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Posted by: Code Zero
It makes no sense to allow evolution yet silence creationism because creationists might want to present their arguments against evolution but they can't because it's against the rules. So you have a bunch of evolutionists agreeing with each other yet you'll see no disagreements because all the disagreements are shunned.

And then you have all the "how did the world come into existence" topics where you'll get answers about big bang and all that, yet nothing about God, and if there is, the topic gets locked. You have all kinds of scientific topics that can be explained with creationism just as easily as they can be explained with evolution (sometimes even MORE SO) but we cannot even speak of that stuff because it's against the rules.


I think it's because you can't possibly argue against "God made the universe" without flaming or a long-winded explanation about the virtues of the scientific process. You can easily (well, if you know enough) take potshots at theories like evolution and the big bang.

  • 08.26.2007 2:51 PM PDT

2:10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
2:11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
2:12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

And many of those potshots at evolution and the bigbang can taken from the bible, too...

  • 08.26.2007 2:54 PM PDT

"Science without religion is lame. Religion without science is blind." - Albert Einstien

Has anyone ever thought that The Big Bang in no way goes against there being a creator? The Big Bang Theory is not an issue here, because many Christians BELIEVE in the Big Bang Theory. It is Evolutionism (man from ape) they do not believe in. It is too common a misconception that people think Christians alienate themselves from all science. I am a Christian, and I LOVE science. Physics was my favorite and to be honest my most loved field of science aside and with Astronomy. Does that mean I am hypocritical? Hell no, it means I can embrace both sides because there is no conflict between the two. The only reason people think the Bible and science contradict is because they read the bible with a 21st century mind, when the Bible's events were described to people 2000 years ago or however long. Back then, people didn't know what the Big Bang, or the Universe, or even a Star for that matter was.

How do you get that point across to people who have no idea, even the basics of the basics, of what your talking about? The Bible seems like it would fit the bill.

  • 08.26.2007 3:00 PM PDT

I am a Floodian

Posted by: PyrobeIIum
I think everybody just wants to be acknowledged in their opinions, but simultaneously we don't want to acknowledge another person's opinions, because that would be like subscribing to the opposite theory, which would clearly cause anybody to burst into flame, no matter which theory they subscribe to.

No, not really. People acknowledge other people's opinions, they just acknowledge that they are the wrong opinion.

  • 08.26.2007 3:01 PM PDT

"Science without religion is lame. Religion without science is blind." - Albert Einstien

Posted by: squirrel dude
Posted by: PyrobeIIum
I think everybody just wants to be acknowledged in their opinions, but simultaneously we don't want to acknowledge another person's opinions, because that would be like subscribing to the opposite theory, which would clearly cause anybody to burst into flame, no matter which theory they subscribe to.

No, not really. People acknowledge other people's opinions, they just acknowledge that they are the wrong opinion.

It would be better called admitting the possibility. I admit the possibility of there not being a God, but honestly I would rather believe and be wrong than not believe and be wrong.

  • 08.26.2007 3:02 PM PDT