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This topic has moved here: Subject: No religion in the Flood; yet evolution and big bang are permitted?
  • Subject: No religion in the Flood; yet evolution and big bang are permitted?
Subject: No religion in the Flood; yet evolution and big bang are permitted?

2:10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
2:11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
2:12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

Well many Christian's interpret the bible in a different way that shows that evolution is an exact opposite from Creationism. Evolution says the world took billions of years to form, the bible literally says everything was made in six LITERAL days (if you look at the Hebrew word they used for days, it means 24 hour period I believe). Evolution says that death formed before sin, but the bible says sin came AS A RESULT from death. Evolution says that man are animals, the bible says that man should take dominion over the Earth and all it's creatures.

Anyway, I don't want to turn this into a debate, I just feel like everyone should have an opportunity to express their views on these kind of things. And creationism leads to flame wars, I admit that. That's why I also believe in all or none. The earth, it's origin and how we got here could be some deep stuff. There's many theories on it, a lot that evolve creationism and some that involve evolution. I just believe in equal opportunity, that's all.

[Edited on 08.26.2007 3:07 PM PDT]

  • 08.26.2007 3:04 PM PDT
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Posted by: UL7IM4 G33K
Posted by: Ryanman7Posted by: UL7IM4 G33K

Proving either of the sides wrong is completely futile.

Yeah. Like I said, it's different ways of thinking. I, personally, feel logic and reason are superior to faith. But that's an opinion of mine. You will never be able to change what I consider important in determining fact, and therin lies the problem of arguing one way or the other.


Well, in my mind, logically, this universe couldn't exist without a creator. Be it God or some other deity. Facts are facts, but that doesn't that they disprove God's existence. In fact, logically, you cannot disprove or prove the existence of God. That is the only reason why the argument is circular, there is no overwhelming and argument ending proof of either side being right.


Well, like I said, how to think is more of an opinion. It's not a circular argument, it's just a natural inability of ANYBODY to truly switch "sides" once you get past the age where you are heavily impressionable.

Although, I do have to call you out on the "no proof that god doesn't exist" thing. Technically, I could say I'm immortal. Since you couldn't prove me wrong would that make me correct? (note: not trying to be an ass.... just something to think about)

  • 08.26.2007 3:09 PM PDT

"Science without religion is lame. Religion without science is blind." - Albert Einstien

Its a matter of interpretation. Do you really think that people from 64BC or 200AD or whenever would understand what gases expanding in an infinite void means? It would be like someone from Star Trek trying to come back and teach how to make a time machine, we wouldn't comprehend it, it is beyond our grasp. 24 hours... the earth was dramatically different back then. It wasn't even the same size as it is now at it's creation. Days were far different then. The moon was closer to the earth, etc. So how can we truly say the Earth was created in 6 of our days? It is a basic description at best.

Ever wonder why atheists attack these small things? Because they are just that, unimportant small things in the bible to make it complete. What is the overall message of the bible? Law, Grace, and Salvation through Christ Jesus. Now does knowing the exact way the earth came to be seem important to that theme? In no way does it fit with that theme, but it does give a basic explanation as to where we came from.

  • 08.26.2007 3:10 PM PDT

2:10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
2:11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
2:12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

Actually, you can't disprove or prove God using logic because the bible says God made logic therefore he can exist outside of it. So the argument is indeed circular.

It's like saying that there are two parallel universes... and you can't disprove the other universe using your own universe's logic because that logic might not even apply to the other.

[Edited on 08.26.2007 3:12 PM PDT]

  • 08.26.2007 3:11 PM PDT
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sorry for the double post all ; )

Posted by: Code Zero
Anyway, I don't want to turn this into a debate, I just feel like everyone should have an opportunity to express their views on these kind of things. And creationism leads to flame wars, I admit that. That's why I also believe in all or none. The earth, it's origin and how we got here could be some deep stuff. There's many theories on it, a lot that evolve creationism and some that involve evolution. I just believe in equal opportunity, that's all.


The cool thing about Halo is it DOES contain references to the Bible (which I do not mind). Having a knowledge of religeon and scientific theory both will help increase the enjoyment you get out of the game.
Especially since it's such a heavy influence on the game, almost none of the story threads in the H3 forums get out of hand, despite mixing fatih with science. So, in this case, I would not support "all or none" on the forums... because discussion of either of these topics is necessary when used in the right context

  • 08.26.2007 3:12 PM PDT

2:10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
2:11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
2:12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

Well I'm talking about specifically The Flood forum, not any of the Halo forums.

  • 08.26.2007 3:14 PM PDT
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Posted by: Code Zero
It makes no sense to allow evolution yet silence creationism because creationists might want to present their arguments against evolution but they can't because it's against the rules. So you have a bunch of evolutionists agreeing with each other yet you'll see no disagreements because all the disagreements are shunned.

And then you have all the "how did the world come into existence" topics where you'll get answers about big bang and all that, yet nothing about God, and if there is, the topic gets locked. You have all kinds of scientific topics that can be explained with creationism just as easily as they can be explained with evolution (sometimes even MORE SO) but we cannot even speak of that stuff because it's against the rules.
Yes. You can explain everything very easily with Creationism. "God did it". That's an easy explanation, but a deeply unsatisfying one that is not really answering any questions. It raises more than it answers, in fact. The beauty of evolution is that it is so simple, and yet leads to such stunning complexity... And requires no supernatural being to explain it.

A thread about it could discuss possible mechanisms, how it occurs, the forces that drive and direct it... A religious input would (very probably) consist of "It's not true", "God did it", or "Explain X missing link". All that would do is derail an otherwise interesting thread (the first is flame-baiting, the second, inarguable and the third... Find link X and you now have Y and Z, two new missing links!). Without religious input, you get a thread of as you say "lots of evolutionists agreeing with each other" and discussing the science. With such input, you get an argument about its truth. Which as we've previously seen, will go nowhere; the scientific side has evidence, the theistic side, the holy word.

Ditto for the Big Bang - a highly intriguing and very current topic of discussion and debate. The same exact input from religious people again lends nothing... Everyone knows that some (many) people think God created everything we see in 7 days, but there's really nothing more they can say after that. Add into the debate with current research that disproves or questions the current theory, but don't expect to be allowed to post "I think God created the universe, as it says so in the Bible. The Big Bang "theory" is just that; and if it's not true then God must have done it".

If I turned up in a Big Bang thread and said "I think our Universe was created by a huge snake" and then tried to 'prove' my point by arguing from an old book I found in my loft, I'd probably be banned for spamming. ]:

  • 08.26.2007 3:16 PM PDT
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Posted by: UL7IM4 G33K
Ever wonder why atheists attack these small things? Because they are just that, unimportant small things in the bible to make it complete. What is the overall message of the bible? Law, Grace, and Salvation through Christ Jesus. Now does knowing the exact way the earth came to be seem important to that theme? In no way does it fit with that theme, but it does give a basic explanation as to where we came from.


Exactly why I read the new testament. Although I disagree with it having to go through Jesus, I find the vast majority of his teachings to be essential in self-betterment.

Posted by: Code Zero
Actually, you can't disprove or prove God using logic because the bible says God made logic therefore he can exist outside of it. So the argument is indeed circular.


Ah. The old Omicient/Omnipotent argument.
Lets all agree we could argue about/discuss these things for eternity : D

  • 08.26.2007 3:17 PM PDT

2:10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
2:11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
2:12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

Yes. You can explain everything very easily with Creationism. "God did it". That's an easy explanation, but a deeply unsatisfying one that is not really answering any questions. It raises more than it answers, in fact. The beauty of evolution is that it is so simple, and yet leads to such stunning complexity... And requires no supernatural being to explain it. Stop there. No dude, no we won't just give "God did it." because there is much, much more in the bible to be said than that. There are texts about all kinds of sciences in the bible that fit the description of today's world almost perfectly. Talk about medicine, geography, archeology, history and all kinds of passages in the bible, the most of which are eventually proven to be true. And this stuff has been spoken of in the bible way before the events even occurred. The beauty of the bible is it's prophesies. Not just "God dit it.". It's way more in depth than that.

  • 08.26.2007 3:18 PM PDT
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Posted by: Code Zero
Science is not a religion, no, Reiginko.

But from many creationist's point of view, evolution is not science. From my point of view, at least, evolution is not science in the least. I'm all fine and dandy with talking about solid concrete proven science. But when it comes to evolution, which is the exact opposite of creationism, I can't even give my input on those topics without it being shunned by the rulebook.

And yes, Reiginko, evolution has EVERYTHING to do with religious beliefs. To some people anyway. Even to others, it has a lot to do with it. Evolution and the big bang provide an explanation for our origin. So does Creationism. They're almost exact opposites. If there's talk of evolution, I have the urge to post my views on it, but I can't, because that's against the rules.

So I truly believe that if you silence once, you need to silence the other.


A completely valid point.

I've posted in many threads where I have to choose my religious wordings carefully. I usually put a little "I apologize for bringing religion into this" disclaimer.

But yeah, I see exactly what you're getting at Code. I wish the religion rule was a tad more flexible, to at least make some debates more debatable.

  • 08.26.2007 3:22 PM PDT
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This thread pretty much shows why religous debates are prohibited. Ive already seen several people call atheists ignorant and stuck up for not sharing their own view on things.

More on topic, its a balance. If people just would have been able to accept that we´re not all thinking alike there wouldnt be a problem, thats not even possible in real life though and its sure as hell not possible in a community where the majority of members are in their mid teens and doesnt have a clue on whats going on in the world or why things are the way they are today.

  • 08.26.2007 3:25 PM PDT

2:10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
2:11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
2:12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

I know why religious debates are prohibited, Bat, and I in no way expect them to ever be accepted. This thread is not trying to allow religious talking (although it would be nice) but I'm trying to find out why the opposite argument is completely valid.

  • 08.26.2007 3:28 PM PDT
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Posted by: Code Zero
Stop there. No dude, no we won't just give "God did it." because there is much, much more in the bible to be said than that. There are texts about all kinds of sciences in the bible that fit the description of today's world almost perfectly. Talk about medicine, geography, ...

I don't know about that. The bible said the world is flat didn't it?

  • 08.26.2007 3:30 PM PDT
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Very true Batzter. Sadly, as you stated, not everyone is open to opposing views. I've gone into threads claiming I personally don't agree with evolution only to be told I was "wrong." I don't see how I can be "wrong" for having a belief, but yeah. It feels like if everyone is not on the same page there won't be discussion, only random flames.

I can see why topics on evolution vs. intelligent design get locked. But some topics do go on about evolution because there isn't direct religious discussion going on. I think topics like those need some clarity (in respect to the Rules.)

Posted by: Ryanman7
I don't know about that. The bible said the world is flat didn't it?


Not to my knowledge......

But what exactly does this have to do with the topic? (I'm not patronizing you, I'm merely curious as to what you mean.)

[Edited on 08.26.2007 3:33 PM PDT]

  • 08.26.2007 3:31 PM PDT

2:10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
2:11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
2:12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

Posted by: Ryanman7
Posted by: Code Zero
Stop there. No dude, no we won't just give "God did it." because there is much, much more in the bible to be said than that. There are texts about all kinds of sciences in the bible that fit the description of today's world almost perfectly. Talk about medicine, geography, ...

I don't know about that. The bible said the world is flat didn't it?
Common misinterpretation of the bible. It says the world is circular, but the Hebrew word that is used in the Hebrew version of the bible can also mean "spherical". So no, the bible doesn't necessarily teach a flat Earth.

  • 08.26.2007 3:33 PM PDT
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I believe it said the world had corners. Then again, I'm not a theologian exactly so don't quote me on that : D

  • 08.26.2007 3:34 PM PDT

2:10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
2:11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
2:12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

Posted by: Ryanman7
I believe it said the world had corners. Then again, I'm not a theologian exactly so don't quote me on that : D
I don't know what you're getting at here either, because this isn't even on topic. But I will answer you. The bible does say that God spread his people to the four corners of the Earth (or something along those lines, I forget) but you can see that a spherical object (an orange, for example) can be cut into four pieces by slicing it down the middle both ways. That leaves four parts of the sphere, or four "corners". If you really want to know more, don't talk about it in here. You can go to any of the Christian bungie groups or PM me or whatever. I just don't want this topic to be locked because of it turning into a debate.

  • 08.26.2007 3:36 PM PDT

2:10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
2:11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
2:12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

Sorry for the double post, but here's a perfectly good topic where I can't express my views. Am I good or evil? Well, the bible says that all men are evil because of sin. Of course I can't say that in that particular topic because it's against the rules.

  • 08.26.2007 3:39 PM PDT
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Well I'd say not to reply to that topic, because your reply wouldn't be relevant (kinda like my post lol)
He's asking what you'd want to be (good/evil, whatever). If you were to waltz in and declare everyone evil, that'd be considered prosumptuous and tactless. You could say, "I'm pretty sure I'm evil, I believe almost everyone is at their core" and still get your point across without having to bring religeon into it.

  • 08.26.2007 3:50 PM PDT
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Posted by: Code Zero
I know why religious debates are prohibited, Bat, and I in no way expect them to ever be accepted. This thread is not trying to allow religious talking (although it would be nice) but I'm trying to find out why the opposite argument is completely valid.

No im fully aware of what you were getting at when you created this thread and im backing you up to a 100 %. Many existential questions and questions related to the creation are directly excluding those that are religious believers since any argumentation would risk their membership. So what we are getting is a one sided show where people are padding eachother on the back. Evolution is a theory too in my book and people believe in theories, thats what differs them from generally accepted truths or facts if you so will.

  • 08.26.2007 3:51 PM PDT

2:10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
2:11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
2:12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

You got a point there, I suppose (To Ryanman)

[Edited on 08.26.2007 3:52 PM PDT]

  • 08.26.2007 3:51 PM PDT
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Banning discussion about science because religious people feel that it opposes their views is comprehensively ridiculous.

And yes, Iceman, you may be told you are wrong... Everyone is entitled to their opinion, but in truth, many people hold 'opinions' that are wrong. If it is my opinion that one and one make three, then... I am very wrong and no-one, no-one should respect my opinion, let alone revere it. This is not a direct parallel to your experience, of course! If, by some miracle (literal or otherwise), evidence were to turn up that absolutely negated our current theories of evolution (and it went through sufficiently rigorous trials!) then those evolutionists would move on (not 100% of them, of course, but the more scientifically-minded of them) to discussions of new theories, new hypotheses, perhaps how this evidence could be reconciled with the current theory. No such evidence could convince a theist, as evidence and reason mean nothing; all is under God's domain.

Religious discussion is banned because it can't be discussed from any position other than authority, arguing from religious texts. Scientific discussion is allowed because it can lead somewhere. Scientists don't often paint themselves as anti-religionists, but as soon as a religious post appears in a scientific discussion thread that's what it becomes. Scientific debate shouldn't be banned because religious people feel that... it offends them, that it is opposing their personally-held view. Religious discussion is banned because it inevitably leads to flame wars. Scientific debate... just doesn't.

It's not a question of banning one 'side' and not the other, it's a question of banning a disruptive and flame-baiting topic to make the forums more manageable.

  • 08.26.2007 3:58 PM PDT
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Posted by: Batzter
So what we are getting is a one sided show where people are padding each other on the back.
That I think sums up the reason why evolution, etc. threads need to stop. They aren't a debate or discussion as many are intended to be. Most of the counter aurguements aren't allowed o Bungie, so it just boils down to the posters saying "I'm great, if you don't believe what I believe, you're stupid.". That needs to stop.

  • 08.26.2007 4:03 PM PDT

2:10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
2:11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
2:12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

Posted by: J J Kwon
Posted by: Batzter
So what we are getting is a one sided show where people are padding each other on the back.
That I think sums up the reason why evolution, etc. threads need to stop. They aren't a debate or discussion as many are intended to be. Most of the counter aurguements aren't allowed o Bungie, so it just boils down to the posters saying "I'm great, if you don't believe what I believe, you're stupid.". That needs to stop.
Indeed, this is exactly what I was getting at.

[Edited on 08.26.2007 4:05 PM PDT]

  • 08.26.2007 4:04 PM PDT

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Posted by: Saint
The problem at the heart of this matter is that there can be no real debate about a Theistic belief, where all 'evidence' comes from scripture. Scientific debate is relatively easy: Person A believes one theory, person B, another. If person A can cite a piece of evidence that categorically confirms his theory, then B really has nowhere to go but to concede that A's is the correct position (if the evidence is to be found in a respectable journal).

Religious debate, on the other hand, basically comes down to: Person A's book says one thing, person B's, another. No evidence will sway either, nothing will convince either to change his or her point of view. Science is evidence vs. evidence. Religion is undeniable, unwaverable truth vs. everyone else.

There can be no religious 'debate', only argument and fighting. Thus even adding their side to a talk about evolution or the Big Bang is fruitless; the people talking doubtless know that there are some people who believe that a deity created us all from nothing, but those people have no evidence or reason to back up their claims and so won't be adding anything by weighing in with "God did it". Religious positions add nothing to scientific talks... Philosophical ones, perhaps, but scientific ones... No.

Posted by: UL7IM4 G33K
Most of the time they dodge and beat around the bush, usually attacking the basic structure of my arguments rather than debating the topic at hand.
Hilarious, that brightened my day [;


I agree, 100%.

  • 08.26.2007 4:10 PM PDT