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This topic has moved here: Subject: No religion in the Flood; yet evolution and big bang are permitted?
  • Subject: No religion in the Flood; yet evolution and big bang are permitted?
Subject: No religion in the Flood; yet evolution and big bang are permitted?
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As far as I can tell, the ways it boils down is that you want threads discussing evolution to be banned. From what I have read, that's the only solution that will satisfy you, since we all agree that religious threads will not, and should not, be allowed.

Honestly? I think that's pretty ridiculous. As was already established, religious threads are not allowed because they degenerate faster than most topics. What valid reason is there for evolution threads to be shut down? The only reason I can get from this thread is that their content offends you. To me, that sounds exactly like the "if I can't have my fun, then they won't either" approach.

  • 08.26.2007 4:33 PM PDT

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I will no more freeze threads on evolution than I would those on heliocentrism. I apologise to those who find this distasteful, as I apologise to those who find my inaction against discussions of bacon or hamburger distasteful.

-- Steve will certainly act to prevent proselytizing in the forums, though, even in its strange athiest form.

  • 08.26.2007 4:50 PM PDT

"Science without religion is lame. Religion without science is blind." - Albert Einstien

Since the original idea of Evolutionism is still unproven (man from ape), it is just as debatable as Christianity, or any other religion for that matter. Things do evolve, but there is no proof for evolution. I feel the OP, if his goal is to get that kind of evolutionism to be banned, would be a logical thing to go after. Why agree upon something that isn't even universally agreed upon as fact? If we cannot discuss the validity of a religion next to unproven and what appears to be a dwindlingly supported scientific theory, then why discuss either? They are both just as valid as the other one.

Anything that is supported by facts isn't debatable, because it is something that is universally agreed upon as being the truth. Of course, then there would be no point of having a discussion board if we only discussed non-negotiable facts.

Posted by: Batzter
This thread pretty much shows why religous debates are prohibited. Ive already seen several people call atheists ignorant and stuck up for not sharing their own view on things.

More on topic, its a balance. If people just would have been able to accept that we´re not all thinking alike there wouldnt be a problem, thats not even possible in real life though and its sure as hell not possible in a community where the majority of members are in their mid teens and doesnt have a clue on whats going on in the world or why things are the way they are today.

We stated something that is from our experience, and in no way said it was fact for everyone. I even said that most atheists I RAN INTO, not all of them, but most. You can take my word for it or not. But please don't accuse me of stereotyping. I try my best not to make my personal experiences sound like stereotype, but it doesn't end up that way.

Calling teens ignorant is also stereotypical in itself, so maybe you should stop being hypocritical. Anyways, before this gets anymore degraded into throwing around generalized insults, may we throw our egos and competitive nature aside? Teens are smarter than you give them credit for. It is the adults who end up being more ignorant than most people assume. Age really has nothing to do with how ingorant you are, more your upbringing and motivation to learn what is going on around you.

[Edited on 08.26.2007 4:52 PM PDT]

  • 08.26.2007 4:52 PM PDT
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Its called science. You can't ban it wi/o banning Halo because videogames are science, or physics and stuff like that are.

No big deal.

  • 08.26.2007 5:15 PM PDT
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Posted by: Code Zero
Science is not a religion, no, Reiginko.

But from many creationist's point of view, evolution is not science. From my point of view, at least, evolution is not science in the least. I'm all fine and dandy with talking about solid concrete proven science. But when it comes to evolution, which is the exact opposite of creationism, I can't even give my input on those topics without it being shunned by the rulebook.

And yes, Reiginko, evolution has EVERYTHING to do with religious beliefs. To some people anyway. Even to others, it has a lot to do with it. Evolution and the big bang provide an explanation for our origin. So does Creationism. They're almost exact opposites. If there's talk of evolution, I have the urge to post my views on it, but I can't, because that's against the rules.

So I truly believe that if you silence once, you need to silence the other.


A lot of things are exact opposites. But you only ban the ones that cause trouble.

And religion causes problems, science doesn't. If you don't like science that isn't unproven you don't really like science at all because gravity isn't proven either. So now we can't talk about gravity either, right? Your logic doesn't work.

  • 08.26.2007 5:18 PM PDT
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My friend, you would not tell with ſuch high zeſt
To children ardent for ſome deſperate glory,
The old Lie: Dulce et decorum eſt
Pro patria mori.

Posted by: Anton P Nym
I will no more freeze threads on evolution than I would those on heliocentrism. I apologise to those who find this distasteful, as I apologise to those who find my inaction against discussions of bacon or hamburger distasteful.

-- Steve will certainly act to prevent proselytizing in the forums, though, even in its strange athiest form.


My sentiments exactly. In fact I was genuinely surprised for a few moments to see these aspects of the scientific continuum being put in the same bucket as religious debate.

  • 08.26.2007 5:21 PM PDT
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You were poiting out A LOT which in my opinion is trying to make it general. When it comes to the teens, i never said ignorant. The term ignorant shouldnt be confused with not having the experience, ignorant is more of an active act of avoiding or not caring in this particular case. Assuming that i jumped from being a child directly to adulthood is a little far fetched, ive been a teen too you know. Theres only so much that the normal teen has experienced and learned in its years, it usually takes more time to get a perspective on things.

And for those that are claiming that its "science", religion is a science too.

[Edited on 08.26.2007 5:25 PM PDT]

  • 08.26.2007 5:25 PM PDT

"Science without religion is lame. Religion without science is blind." - Albert Einstien

Posted by: Batzter
You were poiting out A LOT which in my opinion is trying to make it general. When it comes to the teens, i never said ignorant. The term ignorant shouldnt be confused with not having the experience, ignorant is more of an active act of avoiding or not caring in this particular case. Assuming that i jumped from being a child directly to adulthood is a little far fetched, ive been a teen too you know. Theres only so much that the normal teen has experienced and learned in its years, it usually takes more time to get a perspective on things.

And for those that are claiming that its "science", religion is a science too.

Every person has a different number and orginization of experiences. That means not everyone takes 21 years to learn what is going on in the world they live in. There are kids smarter than 30 or 50 year olds, kids who know more about politics than some of the adults here. Its still generalization. In this digital era, age makes no difference anymore. The only age that makes a difference is probably under the age of 7 and over the age of 35.

  • 08.26.2007 5:29 PM PDT
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My friend, you would not tell with ſuch high zeſt
To children ardent for ſome deſperate glory,
The old Lie: Dulce et decorum eſt
Pro patria mori.

And for those that are claiming that its "science", religion is a science too.
No it's not. Science is the act of constantly challenging established doctrine and belief in order to progress toward a fundamental truth. Religion relies on belief; that's the antithesis of the scientific method.

Anyway I can't see this thread going well... I'll leave it from here.

[Edited on 08.26.2007 5:32 PM PDT]

  • 08.26.2007 5:31 PM PDT

I'm not that active, but never dead.

Science is Dynamic and changes as new information is found and discovered.
Religion is Static and doesn't change no matter what information is found and discovered.

Since Religion does not change, and is not willing to change, allowing religion in discusions should not be allowed, while discussions about evolution should be allowed.

It's that simple.

-Alex

  • 08.26.2007 6:12 PM PDT

"Science without religion is lame. Religion without science is blind." - Albert Einstien

But religion does change... at least Mormonism does.

  • 08.26.2007 6:13 PM PDT
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I said a science.

  • 08.26.2007 6:21 PM PDT

Why the hell are you looking at this? Get out.

And no group invites, you jerk. I'm not interested.

Hehe. "No, you must use alternating current! Direct current is obsolete and we may wage a science war on you for disagreeing!"
You forced that out of my brain. Try not to do that again because that is what happens.

There is a difference. People don't normally flame about science. Religion and politics, however, are frequently a hot debate.

Need I quote Achronos on the "You have no rights here. Play nice," rule?

[Edited on 08.26.2007 6:44 PM PDT]

  • 08.26.2007 6:42 PM PDT
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You don't need a university degree to argue religion; you do to argue most aspects of evolution.
Most Bungie users do not, in fact, have university degrees; ergo, most Bungie users are qualified to argue religion, and not evolution, so that is what they choose to argue.
If more Bungie users had uni degrees in evolution, I'm sure the ensuing flame wars would cause many headaches for the ninjas, and result in 'No evolution discussion' rules.

Also, people who deny evolution make me want to break things. The Big Bang, not so much.
Beginning, nothing, exploded, etc.

  • 08.27.2007 5:52 AM PDT
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Posted by: dalmedya
You don't need a university degree to argue religion; you do to argue most aspects of evolution.
Most Bungie users do not, in fact, have university degrees; ergo, most Bungie users are qualified to argue religion, and not evolution, so that is what they choose to argue.
If more Bungie users had uni degrees in evolution, I'm sure the ensuing flame wars would cause many headaches for the ninjas, and result in 'No evolution discussion' rules.

Also, people who deny evolution make me want to break things. The Big Bang, not so much.
Beginning, nothing, exploded, etc.

It's not about the degrees and knowledge. It's about moral standards of groups being able to speak up.

The thing is these groups are talking about 2 totally different subjects that are barely linked together. I think that this is so stupid to fight over. Science is science. What are you going to do? Science is linked with the rest of the world. There is no shutting it up. As much as people think that it is unfair that they can't talk about religion, it IS different than science.

  • 08.27.2007 6:33 AM PDT
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Posted by: UL7IM4 G33K
Posted by: Ryanman7Posted by: UL7IM4 G33K

Proving either of the sides wrong is completely futile.

Yeah. Like I said, it's different ways of thinking. I, personally, feel logic and reason are superior to faith. But that's an opinion of mine. You will never be able to change what I consider important in determining fact, and therin lies the problem of arguing one way or the other.


Well, in my mind, logically, this universe couldn't exist without a creator. Be it God or some other deity. Facts are facts, but that doesn't that they disprove God's existence. In fact, logically, you cannot disprove or prove the existence of God. That is the only reason why the argument is circular, there is no overwhelming and argument ending proof of either side being right.


It is up to the believer to prove that something does exist, not for the opponent to disprove. If I state that there is a purple elephant with yellow polka-dots sitting on my couch, I must prove that statement to be true. You would have no way of disproving this. Where is your evidence that it is not sitting on my couch? It is literally impossible for you to show that it is not there. I have made this statement. I must provide clear evidence that this has taken place.

  • 08.27.2007 1:57 PM PDT

Tom Achronos
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twitter: http://twitter.com/Achronos

"I have no words that would do justice to the atrocities you commit to the English language, as well as your continued assaults on the concepts of basic literacy and logical reasoning."

As the person who made the rule, the reason why religious discussion is not permitted is two fold. First, there is the problem that many people cannot distinguish the question of "why" and the question of "how". Religion is usually about the former. It excels at it - providing meaning where there are no easy answers, and sometimes no easy questions. Science sucks at the "why", but it excels at the "how" - describing the mechanisms of the natural world. Now, the difference between the two is that one is philosophical, and one is based in observation. You can gather evidence against the observations, but not against a philosophy.

This leads into the second reason people shouldn't be talking about religion. Philosophical beliefs supported by faith are incredibly personal. This means they often define at least part of the very core of our world view. This means that any challenge to said world view is going to met with much hostility. While such discussions can be interesting, the vast majority of the population of this planet is not capable of restraining themselves.

By these definitions, the "creationist" world view is considered a religious topic - it does not follow the scientific method and relies on an initial assumption that cannot be evaluated without a religious world view. Evolutionary theory does not require this, and is not considered religious discussion... unless those discussing it try to make a religious world view out of it (which I'm sure you've seen some atheist zealots do - yes, they exist, although I'm not sure why).

And that, as they say, is that.

Or, if you like, the short version: "Because."

[Edited on 08.27.2007 5:29 PM PDT]

  • 08.27.2007 5:17 PM PDT
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Thanks for clearing that up Achronos.

  • 08.27.2007 5:29 PM PDT

Tom Achronos
Bungie.net Overlord
twitter: http://twitter.com/Achronos

"I have no words that would do justice to the atrocities you commit to the English language, as well as your continued assaults on the concepts of basic literacy and logical reasoning."

Well, after your post, I felt that you were right. Some people around here try and find wiggle room with certain rules, so an executive summary was probably necessary.

Posted by: Recon Number 54
Man do I love the timestamp on edits.

  • 08.27.2007 5:31 PM PDT

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Posted by: Achronos
As the person who made the rule, the reason why religious discussion is not permitted is two fold. First, there is the problem that many people cannot distinguish the question of "why" and the question of "how". Religion is usually about the former. It excels at it - providing meaning where there are no easy answers, and sometimes no easy questions. Science sucks at the "why", but it excels at the "how" - describing the mechanisms of the natural world. Now, the difference between the two is that one is philosophical, and one is based in observation. You can gather evidence against the observations, but not against a philosophy.

This leads into the second reason people shouldn't be talking about religion. Philosophical beliefs supported by faith are incredibly personal. This means they often define at least part of the very core of our world view. This means that any challenge to said world view is going to met with much hostility. While such discussions can be interesting, the vast majority of the population of this planet is not capable of restraining themselves.

By these definitions, the "creationist" world view is considered a religious topic - it does not follow the scientific method and relies on an initial assumption that cannot be evaluated without a religious world view. Evolutionary theory does not require this, and is not considered religious discussion... unless those discussing it try to make a religious world view out of it (which I'm sure you've seen some atheist zealots do - yes, they exist, although I'm not sure why).

And that, as they say, is that.

Or, if you like, the short version: "Because."


I honestly have no idea in what you just said.

[Edited on 08.27.2007 6:07 PM PDT]

  • 08.27.2007 5:47 PM PDT

Turn west on Broadway, and right at the second light on Welchester Road. There is a dirt path about a 1/4 mile way up, turn onto it. When you hit the interstate 56 sign pull back onto the road. From there take the road 38 miles towards Wisconsin. Get off at Exist 73 and take that street to Vermont Road, and take a left at the stop sign. Go down that street to the fifth house on the left. Go into the backyard and open the shed. There you will find my leaf blower, its yours to keep.

*claps*



[Edited on 08.27.2007 5:48 PM PDT]

  • 08.27.2007 5:47 PM PDT