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This topic has moved here: Subject: Can/Should Bungie (temp)ban people who log into H3 early?
  • Subject: Can/Should Bungie (temp)ban people who log into H3 early?
Subject: Can/Should Bungie (temp)ban people who log into H3 early?

MY LOVE FOR YOU IS LIKE A TRUCK...
Posted by: Langley
--on another note, I think MLG Chewhatever is an idiot.

Posted by: Achronos
There is a reason I am user ID 1 and my account creation date is before this site came online.

I'm stuck in quite the conundrum about this issue and I'm curious as to what the rest of the Septi thinks about this one. This debate originates in the fact that I have seen several people boasting about how they are going to find ways to buy H3 early (before release day) for various reasons. I've seen malicious threats about ruining the storyline and the such, to the more "fun" taunts of "nanny nanny boo boo, I'm playing before you!"

Since it is technically illegal to buy the game early (correct me if I'm wrong Fo) I would imagine that Bungie would be justified in any actions they sought to do. Could they make it so the banhammer temp-bans anyone who logs into the game until the 25th? Which would only protect against people seeking to play the game over XBL or those who would want to log in to get achievements. I would assume there would be no way to accurate defend against someone who has the game early and is playing campaign off-line. Is Bungie making sure that game deliveries only happen close to the time of actual release? Is that even plausible? If I learned anything my Criminology classes that the biggest factor in crime is the availability of something versus it's consequences. I would imagine if there were box-loads of copies of Halo 3 sitting around for days at an Ebgames or Gamestop or whatever, chances are that an employee is going to attempt to take/sell copies.

Now, I'll fully admit that I was one of the people that had the French leak of Halo 2. I didn't actively pursue getting it, a friend of mine had it and let me play it. However, I never logged into the game on XBL or had the intentions of spoiling the game for anyone. However, with a game such as Halo 3, I'm sure there are plenty of people that have that mentality. And after seeing the Bioshock debacle here recently, I'm thinking about how things are going to run for Halo 3.

Let me know what you guys think. Think should or shouldn't be done. Am I over-reacting or under-reacting? Should Bungie tempban me for making this thread?

~B.B.

  • 08.31.2007 7:11 AM PDT

That's a really interesting idea. I think they should, but then again you can just stay off the internet for the week before its release.

  • 08.31.2007 7:23 AM PDT

MY LOVE FOR YOU IS LIKE A TRUCK...
Posted by: Langley
--on another note, I think MLG Chewhatever is an idiot.

Posted by: Achronos
There is a reason I am user ID 1 and my account creation date is before this site came online.

Posted by: Hobo GRrunt
That's a really interesting idea. I think they should, but then again you can just stay off the internet for the week before its release.


Oh, I plan to Hobo, or at least limit myself to talking to people via MSN or in private chapters. See the thing is, if you tried to post the ending to Halo 3 in order to spoil it, and you couldn't back it up with proof via achievements, I would imagine you're "opinion" wouldn't carry much weight. Which would potentially protect against some people having the game spoiled. Like I said, I understand there is no way for Bungie/MS to protect against a person who is playing an early copy of the game on campaign off-line because they are separated. I'm just looking at the people who are seeking to try to leverage it against others by either having the game on their "recent games list" or having unlocked achievements.

Maybe I'm over-reacting, and I fully concede that, but I would hope that Bungie/MSGS would be at least doing something to people that are breaking release date and such. I think a temp-ban to even the 26th would be punishment enough. NO co-op for you (grabs bag Soup Nasi style).

~B.B.

  • 08.31.2007 7:32 AM PDT
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the ninjas WILL perme ban anyone who spoils Halo 3's ending in the first day...

  • 08.31.2007 7:39 AM PDT
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sir_brilliant: Team Rocket blasting off at the speed of light
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sir_brilliant: Meowth, that's right!

Actually, this is a novel idea, and you figure XBL wouldn't let you play halo 3 before the 25th anyway.

While I don't know the legal situation, it seems perfectly sensible to ban anyone from XBL (and B.net if their gamertag is linked) if they log onto the game early.

  • 08.31.2007 7:52 AM PDT
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Posted by: BerserkerBarage
I'm stuck in quite the conundrum about this issue and I'm curious as to what the rest of the Septi thinks about this one. This debate originates in the fact that I have seen several people boasting about how they are going to find ways to buy H3 early (before release day) for various reasons. I've seen malicious threats about ruining the storyline and the such, to the more "fun" taunts of "nanny nanny boo boo, I'm playing before you!"

Since it is technically illegal to buy the game early (correct me if I'm wrong Fo) I would imagine that Bungie would be justified in any actions they sought to do. Could they make it so the banhammer temp-bans anyone who logs into the game until the 25th? Which would only protect against people seeking to play the game over XBL or those who would want to log in to get achievements. I would assume there would be no way to accurate defend against someone who has the game early and is playing campaign off-line. Is Bungie making sure that game deliveries only happen close to the time of actual release? Is that even plausible? If I learned anything my Criminology classes that the biggest factor in crime is the availability of something versus it's consequences. I would imagine if there were box-loads of copies of Halo 3 sitting around for days at an Ebgames or Gamestop or whatever, chances are that an employee is going to attempt to take/sell copies.

Now, I'll fully admit that I was one of the people that had the French leak of Halo 2. I didn't actively pursue getting it, a friend of mine had it and let me play it. However, I never logged into the game on XBL or had the intentions of spoiling the game for anyone. However, with a game such as Halo 3, I'm sure there are plenty of people that have that mentality. And after seeing the Bioshock debacle here recently, I'm thinking about how things are going to run for Halo 3.

Let me know what you guys think. Think should or shouldn't be done. Am I over-reacting or under-reacting? Should Bungie tempban me for making this thread?

~B.B.


Lol, I saw your argument with that one guy on the Xbox forums.

  • 08.31.2007 8:06 AM PDT
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It is not illegal to buy the game early. It is illegal to sell it early; there's a difference.

No, users who get the game early should not be banned. If people link or post spoilers, they should be dealt with, but banning people for committing no crime and not doing anything wrong is not acceptable.

However, I never logged into the game on XBL

There's also just that small factor that you need a modchip to be enabled to play the leaked version of Halo 2, and doing so would result in the permanent banning of the console from live.

[Edited on 08.31.2007 8:08 AM PDT]

  • 08.31.2007 8:07 AM PDT
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I would say the 24th. But agree with your idea... a little bit. It's tuff to say yes. The reason I say the 24th is because Microsoft and other companies will be holding launch events where you will get to play Halo 3 before midnight. And if it was till the 25th, they would be blocking their own events.

[Edited on 08.31.2007 8:10 AM PDT]

  • 08.31.2007 8:09 AM PDT
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My friend, you would not tell with ſuch high zeſt
To children ardent for ſome deſperate glory,
The old Lie: Dulce et decorum eſt
Pro patria mori.

I don't see how it's illegal to buy the game early. Selling the game early might violate a contract that a retailer has signed with Microsoft as the publisher and leave the retailer vulnerable to a civil [not criminal] case... but the consumer has no obligation to respect street dates from what I understand.

Hell, I bought Halo 2 two days before the UK release date from a mum & dad retailer in Southampton...

EDIT: Beaten by one one seven, who I hope is ready for some team games come H3Day.

[Edited on 08.31.2007 8:11 AM PDT]

  • 08.31.2007 8:10 AM PDT
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Posted by: Sir Fragula
I don't see how it's illegal to buy the game early. Selling the game early might violate a contract that a retailer has signed with Microsoft as the publisher and leave the retailer vulnerable to a civil [not criminal] case... but the consumer has no obligation to respect street dates from what I understand.

Hell, I bought Halo 2 two days before the UK release date from a mum & dad retailer in Southampton...

EDIT: Beaten by one one seven, who I hope is ready for some team games come H3Day.

Yeah it's not illegal. Just annoying for the gaming company.

  • 08.31.2007 8:12 AM PDT
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If team games = co-op, then definitely. Been too long since I've seen you online Fragula.

  • 08.31.2007 8:14 AM PDT

MY LOVE FOR YOU IS LIKE A TRUCK...
Posted by: Langley
--on another note, I think MLG Chewhatever is an idiot.

Posted by: Achronos
There is a reason I am user ID 1 and my account creation date is before this site came online.

How can you legally buy a game that is not legally for sale? You cannot legally possess what you cannot legally buy? If a retailer is under contract to not sell you the game before a certain date, how can you legally buy the game from them. And if you are in possession of illegal materials, that means you're breaking the law.

That's why it's illegal.

~B.B.

  • 08.31.2007 8:46 AM PDT
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How can you legally buy a game that is not legally for sale? You cannot legally possess what you cannot legally buy? If a retailer is under contract to not sell you the game before a certain date, how can you legally buy the game from them. And if you are in possession of illegal materials, that means you're breaking the law.

That's why it's illegal.


Completely wrong.

It is the seller's responsibility to ensure they are not breaking any rules. You can legally buy things before their street date, but it is illegal to sell them. Learn the difference.

You cannot legally possess what you cannot legally buy?

Incorrect conclusion based on faulty understanding of the law.


The retailer has a contract with the publisher not to sell the product before date X. Breaking that contract is illegal. The terms of that contract do not apply to customers that purchase the product, which is why it is not illegal to buy the product, but it is to sell it.

[Edited on 08.31.2007 9:02 AM PDT]

  • 08.31.2007 8:59 AM PDT

MY LOVE FOR YOU IS LIKE A TRUCK...
Posted by: Langley
--on another note, I think MLG Chewhatever is an idiot.

Posted by: Achronos
There is a reason I am user ID 1 and my account creation date is before this site came online.

Posted by: One One Seven
How can you legally buy a game that is not legally for sale? You cannot legally possess what you cannot legally buy? If a retailer is under contract to not sell you the game before a certain date, how can you legally buy the game from them. And if you are in possession of illegal materials, that means you're breaking the law.

That's why it's illegal.


Completely wrong.

It is the seller's responsibility to ensure they are not breaking any rules. You can legally buy things before their street date, but it is illegal to sell them. Learn the difference.

You cannot legally possess what you cannot legally buy?

Incorrect conclusion based on faulty understanding of the law.


And since they are directly contributing to the breaking of a legal contract, Bungie/MSGS can hold them (the buyer) responsible. Let me rephrase, it is illegal to use or distribute a product before the contract release date. They illegally sold you the game, therefore the original contract holders do not owe you any justification for termination of services that we NOT promised to you when you bought the product.

~B.B.

[Edited on 08.31.2007 9:06 AM PDT]

  • 08.31.2007 9:04 AM PDT
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And since they are directly contributing to the breaking of a legal contract, Bungie/MSGS can hold them (the buyer) responsible. Let me rephrase, it is illegal to use or distribute a product before the contract release date.

No they cannot.

If I were to purchase the game before it's release date, I am free to do so. I did not sign a legally binding contract, and so I am immune to it's terms. You're implying that people can be held accountable to contracts they did not agree to, which would be insane! I will sign a contact with your neighbour that I am entitled to 50% of your earnings. By your reasoning, you are breaking a contract by refusing to give me your money!

The only contract that exists is that between me, the buyer, and the retailer, which offers me certain rights.

Your understanding of the law in this area is woefully bad.

You need to understand that it is the seller's responsibility only to ensure they do not break their contract. Any customer is not obliged to honour this contract, nor is bound by it in any way shape or form.

They illegally sold you the game, therefore the original contract holders do not owe you any justification for termination of services that we NOT promised to you when you bought the product.

The Xbox Live Service is a completely different thing altogether. It is a separate product altogether, and customers have their own contract with Microsoft for the service.

[Edited on 08.31.2007 9:16 AM PDT]

  • 08.31.2007 9:10 AM PDT

MY LOVE FOR YOU IS LIKE A TRUCK...
Posted by: Langley
--on another note, I think MLG Chewhatever is an idiot.

Posted by: Achronos
There is a reason I am user ID 1 and my account creation date is before this site came online.

You cannot legally take possession of something that is not legally able to be transfered to you. If the retailer cannot legally sell you the game...you cannot legally take possession thereof from them. Plain and simple. Do you want some Westlaw examples?

I cannot legally sell you Frag's mum, because I am not legally entitled to transfer ownership to you. If the retailer cannot legally transfer ownership to you, you cannot legally buy it from them. Anything bought between a consumer and a retailer that is bought illegally represents a non-valid contract. Any non-valid contract can be voided by the persons that have original rights.

~B.B.

[Edited on 08.31.2007 9:17 AM PDT]

  • 08.31.2007 9:12 AM PDT
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Posted by: BerserkerBarage
You cannot legally take possession of something that is not legally able to be transfered to you.
~B.B.

Then explain to me why all the Bioshock owners from Toys R Us weren't in trouble?

  • 08.31.2007 9:20 AM PDT
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You cannot legally take possession of something that is not legally able to be transfered to you. If the retailer cannot legally sell you the game...you cannot legally take possession thereof from them. Plain and simple. Do you want some Westlaw examples?

I cannot legally sell you Frag's mum, because I am not legally entitled to transfer ownership to you. If the retailer cannot legally transfer ownership to you, you cannot legally but it from them.


Wrong again, and again, and again.

You cannot sell me Fragula's mum because aside from the sale of human beings being illegal under law in most areas, you have no right to sell the item (you cannot sell what you do not own). In this case it is also illegal to buy because owning of another human being is also illegal; your choice of example is again poor.

We will stick to the product at hand, at least to save you from continuing to make further mistakes in an area of law you have repeatedly shown yourself to have no basic knowledge of.

In this example, I am going to sell you Halo 3 early. I am under a contract with Microsoft (the publisher) of the game, not to sell the game before the 25th September. If I sell you the game early, I am breaking this legally binding contract, and giving Microsoft legal justification to take me to court.

I cannot distribute the product to you legally or transfer ownership to you legally, but your ownership of the item is not illegal. You are not accountable for me transferring the ownership to you, and you are free to sell the product as you wish because you are not bound by the terms in the original contract.

I have tried repeatedly to explain why your understanding is so flawed, and evidently you refuse to listen. However I will ask you this: why is no action ever taken against the people who purchase the game? It's not just because they are harder to take to court, but because there is no legal grounds for doing so.



[Edited on 08.31.2007 9:27 AM PDT]

  • 08.31.2007 9:23 AM PDT

MY LOVE FOR YOU IS LIKE A TRUCK...
Posted by: Langley
--on another note, I think MLG Chewhatever is an idiot.

Posted by: Achronos
There is a reason I am user ID 1 and my account creation date is before this site came online.

Posted by: odmichael
Posted by: BerserkerBarage
You cannot legally take possession of something that is not legally able to be transfered to you.
~B.B.

Then explain to me why all the Bioshock owners from Toys R Us weren't in trouble?


Because 2k didn't feel like making an issue of it. Since they maintained original contract rights on it, they could have hammered anyone that they found to have the game early. But they didn't, and maybe they should have.

~B.B.

  • 08.31.2007 9:24 AM PDT

MY LOVE FOR YOU IS LIKE A TRUCK...
Posted by: Langley
--on another note, I think MLG Chewhatever is an idiot.

Posted by: Achronos
There is a reason I am user ID 1 and my account creation date is before this site came online.

And you seem to be failing to understand that if you cannot legally possess the game because you have an invalid contract, Bungie/MSGS can legally take back the game because you do not technically own it because it was transfered to you through an invalid contract.

The same is true with regards to the buying of stolen property. You cannot legally take possession because the thieves (sellers) DO NOT LEGALLY HAVE THE ABILITY TO SELL YOU (buyer) THE PRODUCT. Since you bought it under an invalid contract, the police can take said property from you without anything in return. Since you cannot legally gain possession or ownership of a product that cannot be legally sold to you, you have no inherent ownership of the item. I'm not wrong Seven, you should just give up.

~B.B.

[Edited on 08.31.2007 9:30 AM PDT]

  • 08.31.2007 9:26 AM PDT

Strange evolution how people have come to believe
That we are it's greatest achievement
We're barely, we're just a collection of cells
Overrating themselves

Temp bans? Just permaban them.

EDIT #2:

Forget it, my brain is far too uncaffeinated to put my thoughts into words.

[Edited on 08.31.2007 9:36 AM PDT]

  • 08.31.2007 9:32 AM PDT
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You are using a completely flawed understanding of legal contracts.

The legal contract between a buyer and seller is unaffected by other contracts. The contract that was created in selling the product and transferring ownership still stands, and it is legal. Microsoft have no grounds to get the game back as they do not own the copy. Neither does the seller.

I find your laws highly amusing in a scary way. You seem to be under the impression that you can be held accountable to contracts which you did not agree to and that ownership is invalidated if a contract you did not agree to nor have anything to do with is broken.

The same is true with regards to the buying of stolen property. You cannot legally take possession because the thieves (sellers) DO NOT LEGALLY HAVE THE ABILITY TO SELL YOU (buyer) THE PRODUCT. Since you bought it under an invalid contract, the police can take said property from you without anything in return. Since you cannot legally gain possession or ownership of a product that cannot be legally sold to you, you have no inherent ownership of the item. I'm not wrong Seven, you should just give up.

It is not at all the same as buying stolen property.

To transfer ownership you have to legally own the product. If you steal it, you do not legally own it and so have no right to sell it (or possess it, or anything else that the owner has not granted you). A retailer owns the stock they buy from Microsoft, and so can transfer ownership of that stock. Breaking the contract is illegal, transferring ownership is not.

This is why the police can take the item back; the new owner is not the legal owner, because the thief could not legally sell the item; transferring ownership is illegal.

Let's compare the two:

Stealing:

Microsoft ---> Retailer (The retailer steals the stock from Microsoft)
Retailer ---> You (Microsoft is the legal owner of the goods as Microsoft did not transfer ownership. Microsoft has the right to get the goods back, and you are owed compensation by the retailer)


Selling:

Microsoft ---> Retailer (The retailer buys stock from Microsoft under a contract that states they will not sell it on before a certain date. The retailer legally owns the stock)
Retailer ---> You (The retailer legally owns the goods, and so can transfer ownership to you. This means breaking the contract with Microsoft, giving Microsoft the case to take legal action, but the transfer of ownership is legal. You legally own a copy of Halo 3)

[Edited on 08.31.2007 9:42 AM PDT]

  • 08.31.2007 9:33 AM PDT

etc etc/glaringly obvious/and so on, and such <=Not redundant!
Posted by: Cr4ne Style
Taxes do nothing to affect the share of wealth, since taxes are only applied to income.

So that's not even a part of the conversation at all, so it's pointless talking about it....

"for a "best" moral to exist, there must exist the "best" moral base. If the base of morality varies from location to location, culture to culture...then there can't be an absolute moral..

Posted by: BerserkerBarage
Since it is technically illegal to buy the game early (correct me if I'm wrong Fo) I would imagine that Bungie would be justified in any actions they sought to do. Could they make it so the banhammer temp-bans anyone who logs into the game until the 25th?

Let me know what you guys think. Think should or shouldn't be done. Am I over-reacting or under-reacting? Should Bungie tempban me for making this thread?


i am no attorney, but i highly doubt that it is illegal to buy the game prior to the official launch date. many game developers give out free copies of their game, and they frequently do so before the general public may buy the game. so, we should expect there to be significantly many players playing the game, even on xboxlive (unless they do not offer xbox live support until 12am 9/25, which i doubt, but this is just a guess) before the rest of us can.

from a practical point of view, i cannot see any reason why bungie would care if people play h3 prior to launch. they may have reason to be irked if they learn that retailers are selling copies before they are supposed to, but they would have little reason to be upset about individual players playing before the game's launch. even if they did mind people playing hours or days before the launch, this will be such a small number of players (relative to the thousands and thousands that will play after midnight when the game launches) that i cannot imagine that they will devote any resources to stop them.

i expect that they will do nothing. if people play on xbox live prior to the game's launch, it just means that they are playing a little earlier than others, and that is not a huge problem.

  • 08.31.2007 9:34 AM PDT

MY LOVE FOR YOU IS LIKE A TRUCK...
Posted by: Langley
--on another note, I think MLG Chewhatever is an idiot.

Posted by: Achronos
There is a reason I am user ID 1 and my account creation date is before this site came online.

And you fail to understand that until the product can be legally transfered to another party through a valid contract, the property rights are still the property of the original rights holder. I'm talking to two lawyers as I'm typing this and they are both saying that is correct.

~B.B.

  • 08.31.2007 9:36 AM PDT

etc etc/glaringly obvious/and so on, and such <=Not redundant!
Posted by: Cr4ne Style
Taxes do nothing to affect the share of wealth, since taxes are only applied to income.

So that's not even a part of the conversation at all, so it's pointless talking about it....

"for a "best" moral to exist, there must exist the "best" moral base. If the base of morality varies from location to location, culture to culture...then there can't be an absolute moral..

Posted by: One One Seven
It is not illegal to buy the game early. It is illegal to sell it early; there's a difference.

No, users who get the game early should not be banned. If people link or post spoilers, they should be dealt with, but banning people for committing no crime and not doing anything wrong is not acceptable.


once again, one one seven has nailed this point. people who buy the game before a certain time are not breaking any laws, and they are not even defying the xboxlive tou. as for retailers selling the game early, while i am willing to bet that this violates their agreement with game makers, i do not think that they are breaking any laws, but this is just a guess.

  • 08.31.2007 9:37 AM PDT