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This topic has moved here: Subject: Can/Should Bungie (temp)ban people who log into H3 early?
  • Subject: Can/Should Bungie (temp)ban people who log into H3 early?
Subject: Can/Should Bungie (temp)ban people who log into H3 early?
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We need The Don Wan in here. She would know best.

  • 08.31.2007 10:37 AM PDT

MY LOVE FOR YOU IS LIKE A TRUCK...
Posted by: Langley
--on another note, I think MLG Chewhatever is an idiot.

Posted by: Achronos
There is a reason I am user ID 1 and my account creation date is before this site came online.

Alright. Just to give another example and hopefully bring this issue to rest:

CLICKY

"Justice Kristi Gill last Saturday ordered customers not to talk about the book, copy it, sell it or even read it before it is officially released at 12:01 a.m. July 16.

The order also compels them to return the novel to the publisher, Raincoast Book Distribution Ltd., until the official release. At that time it will be returned to them."


This deals with the pre-release of a Harry Potter book before the scheduled release date. The publishers of Harry Potter sought and were awarded an injunction against all the people that bought the book that required them to return the "leaked" copies of the book until the actual release date. This leads to the company being forbidden from selling the last Harry Potter book, see the article here:

CLICKY

Now...if the book publishers can get the legal backing to prevent people from reading the book they got early, I would imagine the Bungie/MS has every right to prevent people from playing the game early through temp-banning them until the game is actually released. I hope that if a store does start selling the game early, that Bungie looks to do what the Harry Potter publishers did and not allow those stores/companies to sell their products in the future.

Now that the legal issue is settled, can we talk about the hypothetical of what you think Bungie could/should do to prevent people from playing early.

~B.B.

  • 08.31.2007 12:57 PM PDT
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Read about the Forgotten Spartan I Program
Butane: To protect the world from devastation!
sir_brilliant: To unite all people within our nation!
Rainman89: To denounce the evils of truth and love!
sir_brilliant: To extend out reach to the stars above!
SpaceGhostFlyer: Jessie!
Butane: James!
sir_brilliant: Team Rocket blasting off at the speed of light
Butane: Surrender now or prepare to fight
sir_brilliant: Meowth, that's right!

Here's what I'm going to say- it may not be illegal to own the game before the release date, but Microsoft can make that a bannable offense on XBL. Legal points aside, all Microsoft has to do it change their rules about XBL.

  • 08.31.2007 1:04 PM PDT

$x='print chr(36),"x=",chr(39),$x,chr(39),";\n",$x; ';
print chr(36),"x=",chr(39),$x,chr(39),";\n",$x;

I work at Microsoft. I have nothing to do with Halo and nothing I say is "the official word".

This is an interesting idea, as I can honestly say that when we pre-ordered halo 2 amazon delivered it to us a day early by mistake.

  • 08.31.2007 1:06 PM PDT
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A Guide to Networking, Matchmaking, and Host in Halo (HBO mirror)

Bungie Friends and Family invitee, and sender of "random emails" about networking.

Alright. Just to give another example and hopefully bring this issue to rest:

CLICKY

"Justice Kristi Gill last Saturday ordered customers not to talk about the book, copy it, sell it or even read it before it is officially released at 12:01 a.m. July 16.

The order also compels them to return the novel to the publisher, Raincoast Book Distribution Ltd., until the official release. At that time it will be returned to them."

This deals with the pre-release of a Harry Potter book before the scheduled release date. The publishers of Harry Potter sought and were awarded an injunction against all the people that bought the book that required them to return the "leaked" copies of the book until the actual release date. This leads to the company being forbidden from selling the last Harry Potter book, see the article here:

CLICKY

Now...if the book publishers can get the legal backing to prevent people from reading the book they got early, I would imagine the Bungie/MS has every right to prevent people from playing the game early through temp-banning them until the game is actually released. I hope that if a store does start selling the game early, that Bungie looks to do what the Harry Potter publishers did and not allow those stores/companies to sell their products in the future.

Now that the legal issue is settled, can we talk about the hypothetical of what you think Bungie could/should do to prevent people from playing early.


Under Canadian Law maybe ... under US law ... maybe. Under British law though, they have no right to do that. And British Law is the law I have to abide by in the UK!

And if my memory serves me, in a similar instance in the US a few years ago, the publishers had no right to ask for the book back, but the recipient willingly gave it back without reading in exchange for an autographed copy.

Anyway, we'll agree to disagree. I know how it works under UK law - and these things do work differently around the world. As for what should be done, I say: nothing. If a user has an illegal copy of the game via piracy, they can't log into Live. There will also be few players with which to play online as well at that point.

[Edited on 08.31.2007 1:17 PM PDT]

  • 08.31.2007 1:15 PM PDT

MY LOVE FOR YOU IS LIKE A TRUCK...
Posted by: Langley
--on another note, I think MLG Chewhatever is an idiot.

Posted by: Achronos
There is a reason I am user ID 1 and my account creation date is before this site came online.

Well, I can't speak for the law in the UK, but in the US, if the retailer broke it's initial contract with the Dev/Pub, anything they sell is an invalid contract and the Dev/Pub can make them give them back if they can prove they have it (credit card receipt for example).

What I'd like to stress is that I think that any game Developer or Publisher should look to punish a retailer for breaking release dates. I hope that if 2kBoston/Aussie make another game like Bioshock that they refuse to allow TRU to sell it. You would think that a company losing the ability to make money off a big seller like Bioshock 2 or Halo 4 (or whatever Bungie does next) would be a sufficient punishment.

~B.B.

  • 08.31.2007 1:21 PM PDT

Why do people in ship mutinies always ask for "better treatment"? I'd ask for a pinball machine, because with all that rocking back and forth, you'd get a lot of free games.

Maybe in order to understand mankind, we have to look at the word itself: "Mankind". Basically, it's made up of two separate words - "mank" and "ind". What do these words mean? It's a mystery, and that's why so is mankind.

PERMABAN

[Edited on 08.31.2007 1:49 PM PDT]

  • 08.31.2007 1:49 PM PDT

Like me? Love me? Got a crush? Follow me on Twitter

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It may have been brought up, but what if someone changes time zones? Someone could have gotten the game in one zone and switched over if they are right along the line.

  • 08.31.2007 2:16 PM PDT

MY LOVE FOR YOU IS LIKE A TRUCK...
Posted by: Langley
--on another note, I think MLG Chewhatever is an idiot.

Posted by: Achronos
There is a reason I am user ID 1 and my account creation date is before this site came online.

I'm talking mostly about having the game several days before release. If you got the game 4-5 hours ahead of schedule, that's nothing to major because there is little chance you'll be playing the game, complete everything, and then run straight to the forums to ruin it before people are home with the game themselves.

Honestly, I'm hoping that somehow Bungie/MS arrange it so the games don't get delivered until Monday during the day. But somehow I don't see that as plausible even though that would be the most ideal.

~B.B.

  • 08.31.2007 4:11 PM PDT

When you hear the thunder, and see the lightning, get ready...for the perfect storm...

Posted by: BerserkerBarage
I'm talking mostly about having the game several days before release. If you got the game 4-5 hours ahead of schedule, that's nothing to major because there is little chance you'll be playing the game, complete everything, and then run straight to the forums to ruin it before people are home with the game themselves.

Honestly, I'm hoping that somehow Bungie/MS arrange it so the games don't get delivered until Monday during the day. But somehow I don't see that as plausible even though that would be the most ideal.

~B.B.


Ok the way I see it, unless you are the guy by the disk making machine, and is stupid enough to take one, which ends up getting reported as a missing disk, then I see no way that people can get the disk early.

However, I will admit that possible events can happen, for example, anyone who is working at a store that is selling Halo 3 could get greedy and steal one and run home with it. But with the security in place for the 25th, I don't see it likey to happen. In the event that it does, then the people will see it as a missing item count, and they will be asking questions, which will end up having the guy arrested for stealing.

The possiblities still exist, but I don't see it happening.

  • 08.31.2007 4:46 PM PDT

MY LOVE FOR YOU IS LIKE A TRUCK...
Posted by: Langley
--on another note, I think MLG Chewhatever is an idiot.

Posted by: Achronos
There is a reason I am user ID 1 and my account creation date is before this site came online.

I guess what I really have a problem with is that people are actively seeking to get the game early by doing something they know they shouldn't. There aren't respecting the fact that Bungie wants the game sold on whatever day for whatever reason. Add on top of that they think that their wrong behavior is something to boast about. "Look everyone, I purposefully broke the street date because some store was stupid enough to sell me the game!" I mean if Bungie wants to let it slide, then obviously I can't do anything about it, but it just sucks for the rest of us that play by the rules and don't go looking to find the game early. I'm not in every game store or Walmart trying to bribe people to sell me the game. And I especially wouldn't be doing it if I knew that if I logged into the system I'd end up temp-banning myself. Sure I could play through the campaign a couple days early, but I couldn't log in to get the achievements so sans pictures or video evidence (which wouldn't be smart since your giving permanent evidence, no one is going to believe you if you've said you've played it.

Like I said previously, I hope that Bungie is considering the fact that people are already talking about breaking release date and it's still 3 weeks away. Why even have release dates at all if you aren't going to try to protect those that abide by them? I think a temp-ban for a week so everyone else that waited gets to play co-op or MP because you blew it and cheated sounds more than fair and a good idea. Although permabanning them has a nice ring to it too.

~B.B.

  • 08.31.2007 5:22 PM PDT
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Posted by: Old Papa Rich
Suffice to say that sometime, a moderator is going to end this account permenantly.

I'm pretty sure One One Seven is right. A not relevant, but still fun to point out example is in Holland, where its illegal to grow and sell marijuana, but it is legal to buy and use it.

  • 08.31.2007 5:31 PM PDT

MY LOVE FOR YOU IS LIKE A TRUCK...
Posted by: Langley
--on another note, I think MLG Chewhatever is an idiot.

Posted by: Achronos
There is a reason I am user ID 1 and my account creation date is before this site came online.

Posted by: Tater Salad jr
I'm pretty sure One One Seven is right. A not relevant, but still fun to point out example is in Holland, where its illegal to grow and sell marijuana, but it is legal to buy and use it.


*Sigh*

He might be right about it in the UK, but I know for absolute 100% certainty that in the US and Canada, that is not the case. If they break their contract with Bungie/MS they cannot legally sell you the game. If they cannot legally transfer ownership of the game to you, you cannot possibly legally own it. I'm sorry, that's just how it works. Maybe I'll have Fo comment on this thread because apparently my word isn't good enough.

And if Bungie isn't looking to punish those who start playing the game early that shouldn't...why shouldn't all of us just get the game early? Why even have release dates when all I have to do is give some 3rd shift worker at Walmart $20 to sell me the game early? I mean, $20 and I can play the game knowing that I won't have the story ruined for me and I can just upload the ending onto Youtube and start making Alt accounts and linking to the vid saying it's about Forge.

~B.B.

  • 08.31.2007 7:42 PM PDT

Posted by: WolfmanMaverick
You people have just sent my sides into orbit. A bunch of MLG try hards sucking the dick of some supposed pro half the thread hasn't even heard of. Classic.

Are we sure that the game stores actually buy the games from MS first? I work at a retailer and many of our software titles are on consignment. Meaning we do not actually own them either. I am not sure if that would even make a difference at all. I really do not think though that it would be in MS best interest to even worry about it. They can just hammer the retailers and get a slam dunk in court and not piss off any consumers.

If people do get it early and wish to come on here and spout off about it and try to leak it then they will just be permabanned from the site. Now if by perma banning we can take away the ability to file share and view stats via Bnet then maybe we can add some value to peoples accounts here and they won't do it. (Holy run on sentences Batman!!)

Posted by: BerserkerBarage
Should Bungie tempban me for making this thread?

~B.B.

Do not tempt me............ :P

  • 08.31.2007 8:20 PM PDT

MY LOVE FOR YOU IS LIKE A TRUCK...
Posted by: Langley
--on another note, I think MLG Chewhatever is an idiot.

Posted by: Achronos
There is a reason I am user ID 1 and my account creation date is before this site came online.

Posted by: Achilles1108

Posted by: BerserkerBarage
Should Bungie tempban me for making this thread?

~B.B.

Do not tempt me............ :P


You would....and then have KP permaban me from the Delta! Jerk!

I'm not very much concerned that the mods here won't be able to adequately keep the spoiler threads shut down if any arise. My real point is...what reason do I have to not get the game early if nothing bad is going to happen to me. Naturally, I'm playing "Devil's Advocate" here, but that is actually a question I'm thinking about. If nothing happens to the consumer, why would they not attempt to find a store to sell them the game early. I'd walk up to the person working the electronics desk at 3am at Walmart and tell him I'll give him an extra $20 bucks if he sells me the game early. Eventually you'll probably find a store that's willing or just doesn't care. And if they do sell it to me early, I'm not going to list where I bought it so how would Bungie/MS even know who to fine for breaking release date?

~B.B.

  • 08.31.2007 8:37 PM PDT
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Destinypedia - The Wiki for Bungie's Destiny
Posted by: DEATHPIMP72
Anyone but Foman. He smells like cheese.

Both One One Seven and BB are making a fundamental mistake of assuming the terms of the contract between Microsoft/Bungie and the retailer.

One One Seven, you need to calm down. You are, in fact, incorrect in your blanket statement (in so many words) that a consumer buying a game from a retailer always transfers title and that thus a consumer who buys a game early from a retailer is always in legal possession. This is incorrect. If the terms of the contract between Microsoft/Bungie do not pass legal title of the game to the retailer until September 25, then the retailer never has the appropriate legal title to the game that would enable such title to pass to the gamer before September 25. If the consumer buys the game from the retailer before the retailer has title to the game, then the consumer has basically bought nothing and does not own the game. No title = no rights to use the game. Thus, it would be completely appropriate to deny the privileges of owning and playing the game to the buyer. That holds true no matter whether you are talking about UK or United States law. And please stop speaking with such arrogance about your legal knowledge. Such concepts are inherently difficult to grasp, as you have shown, and your incomplete and incorrect statements are exacerbated by telling BB that he has no idea what he's talking about.

BB, you seem to be making a big assumption about the transfer of title inherent within the contracts between Microsoft/Bungie and the retailer. Without this leap of assumption that title is being withheld from the retailer (or, at least, until September 25), your theory cannot hold, either. In light of Achilles's post above, I'm inclined to think that your assumption may indeed be correct. But to be honest, it's certainly possible that title to the game passes to the retailer at the same time as possession transfers, and the contract between Microsoft/Bungie and the retailer most likely prohibits the sale of the game until a certain date, while providing for severe liquidated damages in the event of early sales. That's just a guess, but if that's what the contract says, then the retailer is certainly allowed to pass title onto the buyer, and the buyer is legally in both possession and control of the game. It would be unfair to punish the buyer in that event; rather, it would be the retailer who would have to pay the damages.

The end result is that you are both falling a bit short in your legal analyses, and the fact is that unless you are a retailer or Microsoft or somehow otherwise have direct knowledge of the terms of the contract between Microsoft/Bungie and the retailer, you do not know whether a consumer who buys the game early actually has title to the game or not.

As for BB's idea of auto-banning users, I do not like this solution. The better solution is to wait for a person to try to post spoilers and then ban, as it would probably be too difficult and/or too much of a pain in the ass to tell who had the game appropriately (such as people who got promo copies, or Bungie employees themselves) and people who did not.

That said, I will be extremely cautious about logging onto the forums here in the week or two preceding September 25.

[Edited on 08.31.2007 9:04 PM PDT]

  • 08.31.2007 8:47 PM PDT

Old school Bungie, born and raised,
In the Septagon is where I spend most of my days.
Relaxin', maxin', posting all cool,
Talking about Halo, life and some school.
Got in one little argument, and the mods got scared,
they said "You're gonna get banned and your member title'll be bare!"

This whole conversation reminds me of the prohibition era; being illegal to sell, buy, or transport liquer, but completely legal to drink it : S

  • 08.31.2007 8:55 PM PDT

MY LOVE FOR YOU IS LIKE A TRUCK...
Posted by: Langley
--on another note, I think MLG Chewhatever is an idiot.

Posted by: Achronos
There is a reason I am user ID 1 and my account creation date is before this site came online.

Thanks for the clarification Fo, and you are correct that I am not privy to the exact contractual agreements between Bungie/MSGS and their retailers. I would imagine though that they would take serious steps in order to protect their IP when they aren't even allowing game reviewers to actually take possession of the game prior to release. The whole, "come to our review party, we'll supply the snackages!" Which honestly to me is a total win-win situation.

I'll admit that much of my frustration over this issue started with the 2k incident a few weeks ago. I mean, they were selling the game for days before 2k finally got around to issuing a "cease and desist". It just seems to me that this is another way that people who do things legit get screwed over. While the people that are looking to abuse the release date system or ignorant retailers get away with it. I mean, I have seen on several occasions where people are already bragging that they "know" they will get the game earlier than it's release date. That type of ego when you know what you are doing is wrong is really what finally drove me to make a thread about this. Now, I understand that Dev/Pubs don't really want to do things to piss off their customers but really when are they going to stand up and actually support having release dates? If you are going to have them, why aren't you doing your part to ensure that they are being upheld? Like I said before, what do I have to lose for trying to knowingly break release date? Nothing so far as I know.

Here's what I would do, and I'm sure none of you really care, but if you've read this far, I'll bore you some more. I'd ship the games to the retailers over the weekend (22nd/23rd) or have them arrive on Monday the 24th. From midnight on Friday the 21st, I'd just toggle the banhammer to select anyone who logs into the Halo3 interface to automatically temp-ban people until 12:01amEDT on the 25th. Just have a press announcement/release to any MS/Bungie people who have the game ahead of time to not login during those 3 days. Now, I guess that seems like a lot of work for something that might not even matter, but to me at least it would. So you might have gotten the game early, but you couldn't prove it outside of either direct images or video and that's just setting yourself up to get in serious trouble (reference Harry Potter leak lawsuits). Plus it keeps people from playing co-op, multiplayer, actually everything other than just off-line campaign. To me that would seem like a "good-faith" effort on the part of Bungie/MS to show that they don't condone people breaking release dates and taking advantage of it.

Again, I've said that it's quite the conundrum for me because I can understand that it seems that I am completely blowing this out of proportions. Maybe I am. Maybe I'm displaying my age because I'm getting pissed off because people are constantly breaking release dates and nothing happens to them. Maybe it's because of my background that I just don't like seeing something I would call "illegal" happening and no consequences are being put out. Sure the retailer might get a slap on the wrist, but to me that's only half of the problem.

So thanks to the people that have taken the time to read this long diatribe. I know it's not terribly interesting to most.

~B.B.

  • 08.31.2007 10:19 PM PDT

etc etc/glaringly obvious/and so on, and such <=Not redundant!
Posted by: Cr4ne Style
Taxes do nothing to affect the share of wealth, since taxes are only applied to income.

So that's not even a part of the conversation at all, so it's pointless talking about it....

"for a "best" moral to exist, there must exist the "best" moral base. If the base of morality varies from location to location, culture to culture...then there can't be an absolute moral..

Posted by: x Foman123 x
If the terms of the contract between Microsoft/Bungie do not pass legal title of the game to the retailer until September 25, then the retailer never has the appropriate legal title to the game that would enable such title to pass to the gamer before September 25. If the consumer buys the game from the retailer before the retailer has title to the game, then the consumer has basically bought nothing and does not own the game.

BB, you seem to be making a big assumption about the transfer of title inherent within the contracts between Microsoft/Bungie and the retailer. Without this leap of assumption that title is being withheld from the retailer (or, at least, until September 25), your theory cannot hold, either.
But to be honest, it's certainly possible that title to the game passes to the retailer at the same time as possession transfers, and the contract between Microsoft/Bungie and the retailer most likely prohibits the sale of the game until a certain date, while providing for severe liquidated damages in the event of early sales. That's just a guess, but if that's what the contract says, then the retailer is certainly allowed to pass title onto the buyer, and the buyer is legally in both possession and control of the game. It would be unfair to punish the buyer in that event; rather, it would be the retailer who would have to pay the damages.

The end result is that you are both falling a bit short in your legal analyses, and the fact is that unless you are a retailer or Microsoft or somehow otherwise have direct knowledge of the terms of the contract between Microsoft/Bungie and the retailer, you do not know whether a consumer who buys the game early actually has title to the game or not.

As for BB's idea of auto-banning users, I do not like this solution. The better solution is to wait for a person to try to post spoilers and then ban, as it would probably be too difficult and/or too much of a pain in the ass to tell who had the game appropriately (such as people who got promo copies, or Bungie employees themselves) and people who did not.


thanks for chiming in foman. while i am familiar with you from various posts in the forums, can you tell me why people solicited your view in this matter? i know that bersker has a growing background in law and he hoped that you would share your thoughts. are you an attorney? i am just curious.

as for your comments about the debate, your claims are consistent with mine: bb's claim is contingent upon the contract having clauses of one kind, and the rest of us are operating under the assumption that the contract is quite different. since none of us have access to the contract, all that we can do is make stabs in the dark.

i also agree that auto-banning users is a rotten idea. it seems that the only reason that bungie and microsoft would be upset with individual users playing the game prior to the release date (provided that they were not given the game by bungie or a related group) would be if they were going to share spoilers with the general public. halo is surely no harry potter, so the damages caused by leaks will not produce the same level of negative consequences as leaking the ending of a book from an established series. but, this is the end of a trilogy of a huge video game title, so we can expect them to vigilantly try to end all early spoilers. but, if people simply play the game prior to 9/25, even on xboxlive, then i doubt that any form of punishment is in order, and i doubt that bungie or microsoft would want to irk such players. at most they might not allow h3 discs to gain access to xboxlive until 9/25, but i doubt that as well. in any case, i am just making blind guesses, so we will have to watch for activity here in the forums.

  • 09.01.2007 6:10 AM PDT

Old school Bungie, born and raised,
In the Septagon is where I spend most of my days.
Relaxin', maxin', posting all cool,
Talking about Halo, life and some school.
Got in one little argument, and the mods got scared,
they said "You're gonna get banned and your member title'll be bare!"

Posted by: sesquipadelian

thanks for chiming in foman. while i am familiar with you from various posts in the forums, can you tell me why people solicited your view in this matter? i know that bersker has a growing background in law and he hoped that you would share your thoughts. are you an attorney? i am just curious.



Foman plays a lawyer on TV.

  • 09.01.2007 10:42 AM PDT
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And the Shadow fell upon the Land, and the World was riven stone from stone. The oceans fled, and the mountains were swallowed up, and the nations were scattered to the eight corners of the World. The moon was blood, and the sun was as ashes. The seas boiled, and the living envied the dead. All was shattered, and all but memory lost, and one memory above all others, of him who brought the Shadow and the Breaking of the World. And him they named Dragon.

Posted by: prometheus25
Posted by: sesquipadelian

thanks for chiming in foman. while i am familiar with you from various posts in the forums, can you tell me why people solicited your view in this matter? i know that bersker has a growing background in law and he hoped that you would share your thoughts. are you an attorney? i am just curious.



Foman plays a lawyer on TV.



"Haha."

[Edited on 09.01.2007 11:14 AM PDT]

  • 09.01.2007 11:09 AM PDT

Old school Bungie, born and raised,
In the Septagon is where I spend most of my days.
Relaxin', maxin', posting all cool,
Talking about Halo, life and some school.
Got in one little argument, and the mods got scared,
they said "You're gonna get banned and your member title'll be bare!"

Posted by: Qbix89
Posted by: prometheus25
Posted by: sesquipadelian

thanks for chiming in foman. while i am familiar with you from various posts in the forums, can you tell me why people solicited your view in this matter? i know that bersker has a growing background in law and he hoped that you would share your thoughts. are you an attorney? i am just curious.



Foman plays a lawyer on TV.


Haha.
heh, but seriously, Foman is a lawyer.

[Edited on 09.01.2007 11:15 AM PDT]

  • 09.01.2007 11:14 AM PDT
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  • last post: 01.01.0001 12:00 AM PDT

So basically all of the reviewers and people who get advanced copies are just getting pwned?

Not to mention, 2k couldn't do anything about early bioShock sales. However only the seller can get into trouble.

  • 09.01.2007 11:55 AM PDT