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This topic has moved here: Subject: Can/Should Bungie (temp)ban people who log into H3 early?
  • Subject: Can/Should Bungie (temp)ban people who log into H3 early?
Subject: Can/Should Bungie (temp)ban people who log into H3 early?

MY LOVE FOR YOU IS LIKE A TRUCK...
Posted by: Langley
--on another note, I think MLG Chewhatever is an idiot.

Posted by: Achronos
There is a reason I am user ID 1 and my account creation date is before this site came online.

Posted by: xfire grunt
So basically all of the reviewers and people who get advanced copies are just getting pwned?

Not to mention, 2k couldn't do anything about early bioShock sales. However only the seller can get into trouble.


Reviewers don't get advanced copies, they go to the press events. They might get a couple right before release, but all they would have to do is not go on XBL. You can play co-op and multiplayer on local and system link.

2k dropped the ball big time on Bioshock. They ran incorrect commercials saying the game was available prior to release for days. And it took them days to get TRU under control.

I'm hoping that Bungie/MSGS don't make the same mistakes.

~B.B.

  • 09.01.2007 12:11 PM PDT
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Posted by: DEATHPIMP72
Anyone but Foman. He smells like cheese.

Posted by: sesquipadelian
thanks for chiming in foman. while i am familiar with you from various posts in the forums, can you tell me why people solicited your view in this matter? i know that bersker has a growing background in law and he hoped that you would share your thoughts. are you an attorney? i am just curious.

as for your comments about the debate, your claims are consistent with mine: bb's claim is contingent upon the contract having clauses of one kind, and the rest of us are operating under the assumption that the contract is quite different. since none of us have access to the contract, all that we can do is make stabs in the dark.

Yes, I'm a lawyer, although I try to avoid many of the legal topics on these forums since I don't want anything I say being construed as "advice" and getting me in trouble with the nice folks who run the Washington State, Maryland, and DC bars. But in a situation like this, I feel comfortable chiming in with an objective legal analysis that doesn't suggest that anybody take or not take any actions.

So yeah, you're right... we pretty much have to guess at the terms of the contract, and until we do that, it's hard to know whether BB's idea is feasible. But regardless, I'm not so sure that it would be feasible anyway, or a good idea. As you note, it would certainly be pretty easy to skirt around it in order to maliciously post spoilers here. I think that the best solution is going to be to rely on the mods to obliterate the bad posters. I know that they don't relish the job, but some, like evilcam, have stated that it doesn't bother them a whole lot, and that this is part of the duty of being a bnet moderator. Personally, I am the same way -- seeing spoilers doesn't bother me a lot except that I know that other people really hate them.

[Edited on 09.01.2007 2:13 PM PDT]

  • 09.01.2007 1:30 PM PDT

Formerly known as BASs13 and One Point Three

I wonder if the mods get the game early so they don't get their experience of the spoiled. I personally would hate it if I had to read the ending 20 times before I got to play it.

  • 09.01.2007 1:33 PM PDT
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As much as I don't want people to be playing it early, if they are, as long as they don't spoil it, then no, they shouldn't be banned. HOWEVER, if they get online, then yes, because people on their friends list would see it, and it would spread from there.

  • 09.01.2007 2:13 PM PDT
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And the Shadow fell upon the Land, and the World was riven stone from stone. The oceans fled, and the mountains were swallowed up, and the nations were scattered to the eight corners of the World. The moon was blood, and the sun was as ashes. The seas boiled, and the living envied the dead. All was shattered, and all but memory lost, and one memory above all others, of him who brought the Shadow and the Breaking of the World. And him they named Dragon.

Posted by: prometheus25
Posted by: Qbix89
Posted by: prometheus25
Posted by: sesquipadelian

thanks for chiming in foman. while i am familiar with you from various posts in the forums, can you tell me why people solicited your view in this matter? i know that bersker has a growing background in law and he hoped that you would share your thoughts. are you an attorney? i am just curious.



Foman plays a lawyer on TV.


Haha.
heh, but seriously, Foman is a lawyer.


I know, Prometheus:)

[Edited on 09.01.2007 3:37 PM PDT]

  • 09.01.2007 3:28 PM PDT

MY LOVE FOR YOU IS LIKE A TRUCK...
Posted by: Langley
--on another note, I think MLG Chewhatever is an idiot.

Posted by: Achronos
There is a reason I am user ID 1 and my account creation date is before this site came online.

Posted by: x Foman123 x

Yes, I'm a lawyer, although I try to avoid many of the legal topics on these forums since I don't want anything I say being construed as "advice" and getting me in trouble with the nice folks who run the Washington State, Maryland, and DC bars. But in a situation like this, I feel comfortable chiming in with an objective legal analysis that doesn't suggest that anybody take or not take any actions.



Yeah, I would never use Fo for legal advice......

I want to win!

But believe me Fo, I've heard the whole "the answer to this question cannot be construed as legal advice and should not be acted upon in fashion as more than educated opinion. It is offered as-is and carries no legally binding contracts." I get it pretty much every time I call my brother. It was worse when he was a Staff Attorney for the Appeals Courts.

On a side note. As of right now does anyone see any reason why not to get Halo 3 early?

~B.B.

  • 09.01.2007 4:40 PM PDT

etc etc/glaringly obvious/and so on, and such <=Not redundant!
Posted by: Cr4ne Style
Taxes do nothing to affect the share of wealth, since taxes are only applied to income.

So that's not even a part of the conversation at all, so it's pointless talking about it....

"for a "best" moral to exist, there must exist the "best" moral base. If the base of morality varies from location to location, culture to culture...then there can't be an absolute moral..

Posted by: BerserkerBarage
On a side note. As of right now does anyone see any reason why not to get Halo 3 early?


no, because i cannot wait to play it and i want to be playing right now!!!!!!!

i suspect that given the opportunity, the vast majority of readers would play it early if given the chance (either by being given a free copy or sold a copy early by an unseemly seller). i would be happy just to get it as soon after midnight as possible since i teach tuesday morning. as it stands now, given the fact that i will be playing halo3 in the middle of the night, i suspect that the lecture and discussion on kantian ethics will be less spirited than it usually is.

  • 09.01.2007 5:04 PM PDT

MY LOVE FOR YOU IS LIKE A TRUCK...
Posted by: Langley
--on another note, I think MLG Chewhatever is an idiot.

Posted by: Achronos
There is a reason I am user ID 1 and my account creation date is before this site came online.

I'm in the same boat Ses, but I only have to do a Intro to Poli-Sci course!

Yeah, I would imagine that the vast majority would want to get the game early, even though they know that they should wait till release. And that is another of the things I wanted to talk about. Why have release dates when there are seemingly no penalties for breaking them as a consumer?

~B.B.

[Edited on 09.01.2007 5:49 PM PDT]

  • 09.01.2007 5:49 PM PDT

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Talking about Halo, life and some school.
Got in one little argument, and the mods got scared,
they said "You're gonna get banned and your member title'll be bare!"

Posted by: BerserkerBarage
Posted by: x Foman123 x

Yes, I'm a lawyer, although I try to avoid many of the legal topics on these forums since I don't want anything I say being construed as "advice" and getting me in trouble with the nice folks who run the Washington State, Maryland, and DC bars. But in a situation like this, I feel comfortable chiming in with an objective legal analysis that doesn't suggest that anybody take or not take any actions.



Yeah, I would never use Fo for legal advice......


I do. He gives me free advice (cost of alcohol not withstanding). Though, for some reason, most of it involves an odd correlation between burritos, homeless people, and an unusually large ball of twine. Wierd, huh?

  • 09.01.2007 7:19 PM PDT

Old school Bungie, born and raised,
In the Septagon is where I spend most of my days.
Relaxin', maxin', posting all cool,
Talking about Halo, life and some school.
Got in one little argument, and the mods got scared,
they said "You're gonna get banned and your member title'll be bare!"

Posted by: Pure Ruin
There's nothing wrong with a few people buying it early. Nobody gets hurt, nobody loses sales it's not like you're holding up the store at gun point

jesus christ


Unless...they hold a store up at gun point to get them...

The problem lies in the domino effect: First, a small group of people get a game earlier. Then a larger group of people copy the efforts of the predecessors for the next big game, then the circumstances snowball into mass panic and unusually selfish demands.

  • 09.01.2007 7:21 PM PDT
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I'm not sure if this has been brought up because I am in a rush here but what about people in timezones who will get the game before the 25th XBL Server/Microsoft time?

If it comes out here on the 25th, I don't know if it does, it might be a day late, but if it does, I will log in on the 24th according to Bungie.net.

  • 09.01.2007 10:37 PM PDT
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It's not necessarily the person's fault. GameStop might have called them up on the 23rd and told them "Hey we're getting it in tonight, you can drop by tomorrow in the morning and pick up Halo 3" and they might think it's released.

Best thing to do is to check their locations through their GamerTag and see if they can track down what stores are doing it. Punish the stores, not the players.

  • 09.01.2007 10:45 PM PDT

MY LOVE FOR YOU IS LIKE A TRUCK...
Posted by: Langley
--on another note, I think MLG Chewhatever is an idiot.

Posted by: Achronos
There is a reason I am user ID 1 and my account creation date is before this site came online.

Posted by: Pezz
I'm not sure if this has been brought up because I am in a rush here but what about people in timezones who will get the game before the 25th XBL Server/Microsoft time?

If it comes out here on the 25th, I don't know if it does, it might be a day late, but if it does, I will log in on the 24th according to Bungie.net.


Excellent point Pezza, I had forgotten about you Aussies! For some reason I thought you were getting the game after us (US). Like with Bioshock is came out a week later in the U.K.. I didn't realize that it came out the same day for you guys. So...hmm, I guess that would prove problematic for my hypothetical.

~B.B.

  • 09.01.2007 11:54 PM PDT

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[*Please note that anything in my posts is likely to be filled with sarcasm, and should be taken with a pinch of salt. I tend to help people, usually*]

I would hope that Bungie could do so...however I think there may be many a Bungie employee who have the final version of the game (not proper retail version...those are still in production) and are most likely actively playing as we speak.

I was also (shamefully) one of the people who played the Halo 2 French version. (it was also hard to resist playing).

I do understand the idea of playing early being fun...but this is exactly why I plan to stay away from the Forums from the 20th. I do plan on returning only once I've completed Campaign.

But...I remain sceptical about the idea...if Bungie can, they should, and all will be well....I just hope there's not an error in coding for that so that all of those who play after will also be banned :/

[Edited on 09.02.2007 3:35 AM PDT]

  • 09.02.2007 3:34 AM PDT

Good, bad, I'm the guy with the clichéd lines.

Posted by: prometheus25
The problem lies in the domino effect: First, a small group of people get a game earlier. Then a larger group of people copy the efforts of the predecessors for the next big game, then the circumstances snowball into mass panic and unusually selfish demands.

Except for the fact that purchasing items before the street date is not a new concept. I remember buying movies before street date when I was in junior high (which was like 6 or 7 years ago). So no there is no snowball effect. Most people I know don't care enough to go to random stores to try to buy a product early. They'll just wait until it's out and they know they can get it. Those people aren't going to suddenly change views because Joe Shmoh got a game early from Toys r Us.

I don't really see what the problem is. The only problem would be spoilers and anyone that posts them will be banned. I wouldn't be opposed to making it so people can't use live features like matchmaking or file sharing or whatever until Sept 25th.. but anything beyond that would be excessive and unnecessary. As I've said in the past there are too many people on these forums that are ban-happy.

Posted by: Achilles1108
If people do get it early and wish to come on here and spout off about it and try to leak it then they will just be permabanned from the site. Now if by perma banning we can take away the ability to file share and view stats via Bnet then maybe we can add some value to peoples accounts here and they won't do it. (Holy run on sentences Batman!!)?

Like that. That would be a horrible idea. Even if someone is a dick I don't think they should be denied from a service that should be available to everyone that has purchased the game.

[Edited on 09.02.2007 5:03 AM PDT]

  • 09.02.2007 4:53 AM PDT

http://www.omgpop.com/?r=x1wjr

section 4 sub-section 19 in the retailers trading act 1995 any product put up for sale before producers release date is illegal and any person hereon which buys this product is not accounted for and thus will not be prosecuted therefor the original retailer will be.

[Edited on 09.02.2007 5:49 AM PDT]

  • 09.02.2007 5:47 AM PDT
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I think it's important to note that the law on these things and various customer rights vary wildly from region to region.

That holds true no matter whether you are talking about UK or United States law.

I don't doubt that you have an excellent understanding of US law Foman, but there are an extremely large amount of differences between the two. I would not be arrogant enough as to suggest that I know about customer rights in the US ... though from what I can tell, these rights are a lot less than around the rest of the world (a quick example would be the right to return goods after purchasing them online within 7 days if unopened, or a mandatory 1 year warranty, in the UK).

Yes if Microsoft were to state in their contract that the contract is an agreement to sell the stock at a certain time, like buying a house, then the stock could not be legally sold. If you were to sell your house to me, I cannot sell it on until the process has been completed. I also know quite a bit about the retail business myself, and suggest that such a contract - like a housing purchase - is extremely unlikely, and that a clause stating that the item is not for sale before a certain date is most likely.

So as long as the stock is owned by the retailer at the time of sale, even if the terms of the contract prohibit sale, the retailer can sell the item to the customer, and legally transfer ownership. A customer's Statutory rights in the UK mean that the item could not be taken back as long as ownership transfer was legal, no matter what contractual agreements the retailer broke.

fallenrat has just given you a quote from Australian law, again proving that the rules vary wildly.

Please do not make the mistake of assuming that US customs and law practices are similar around the world. In Canada there might be similarities, but in the UK, we customers enjoy an awful lot of consumer protection!

  • 09.02.2007 6:15 AM PDT

Good, bad, I'm the guy with the clichéd lines.

Modding is legal in Australia last I remember. Slightly off topic but yeah.

[Edited on 09.02.2007 8:43 AM PDT]

  • 09.02.2007 8:42 AM PDT

YES

  • 09.02.2007 3:58 PM PDT
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Posted by: DEATHPIMP72
Anyone but Foman. He smells like cheese.

Posted by: One One Seven
I think it's important to note that the law on these things and various customer rights vary wildly from region to region.

That holds true no matter whether you are talking about UK or United States law.

I don't doubt that you have an excellent understanding of US law Foman, but there are an extremely large amount of differences between the two. I would not be arrogant enough as to suggest that I know about customer rights in the US ... though from what I can tell, these rights are a lot less than around the rest of the world (a quick example would be the right to return goods after purchasing them online within 7 days if unopened, or a mandatory 1 year warranty, in the UK).

Yes if Microsoft were to state in their contract that the contract is an agreement to sell the stock at a certain time, like buying a house, then the stock could not be legally sold. If you were to sell your house to me, I cannot sell it on until the process has been completed. I also know quite a bit about the retail business myself, and suggest that such a contract - like a housing purchase - is extremely unlikely, and that a clause stating that the item is not for sale before a certain date is most likely.

So as long as the stock is owned by the retailer at the time of sale, even if the terms of the contract prohibit sale, the retailer can sell the item to the customer, and legally transfer ownership. A customer's Statutory rights in the UK mean that the item could not be taken back as long as ownership transfer was legal, no matter what contractual agreements the retailer broke.

fallenrat has just given you a quote from Australian law, again proving that the rules vary wildly.

Please do not make the mistake of assuming that US customs and law practices are similar around the world. In Canada there might be similarities, but in the UK, we customers enjoy an awful lot of consumer protection!

Yes, as I noted in my opinion, you are right and that would be the case in either the United States or the UK.

There are indeed many statutory differences between US, UK, and Australia, but the common law of all three countries derives from the same source, that being the British common law developed in Great Britain from about 1500 AD through about 1800. Basic property law in all three places, which derives almost entirely from common law, and disregarding statutory changes, remains virtually the same.

As a result, I noted previously that you are making the assumption that title has passed from Microsoft to the retailer and that the retailer has "bought" the game from Microsoft under the condition that it will not resell the game until September 25. But considering that we don't know the terms of the contracts between Microsoft and video game retailers, we cannot say for sure whether a consumer who pays a retailer and receives the game early actually owns the game or not. And that remains true no matter what country you're in. If you pay attention to the details of this legal minutiae, you'll realize that BB's analogy of a person who buys stolen jewels not having legal title to those jewels is not so far off the mark.

At any rate, my point is that you are both right, but you are making opposite assumptions a bit earlier in the chain-of-title that are causing you to think that you're disagreeing -- when you're actually not :-)

  • 09.02.2007 4:42 PM PDT

MY LOVE FOR YOU IS LIKE A TRUCK...
Posted by: Langley
--on another note, I think MLG Chewhatever is an idiot.

Posted by: Achronos
There is a reason I am user ID 1 and my account creation date is before this site came online.

Fo...if we can't disagree and call each other names....what's the point of the forums?

I've just come to the conclusion that I'll go bribe my friend that is the manager of a Ebgames/GS to let me have H3 early. He owes me since I went to TRU to get him Bioshock early, so it won't be a big deal.

It seems to me that nothing can really be done to prevent people breaking release dates, so I might as well myself.

~B.B.

  • 09.02.2007 4:57 PM PDT

When you hear the thunder, and see the lightning, get ready...for the perfect storm...

Posted by: BerserkerBarage
Fo...if we can't disagree and call each other names....what's the point of the forums?

I've just come to the conclusion that I'll go bribe my friend that is the manager of a Ebgames/GS to let me have H3 early. He owes me since I went to TRU to get him Bioshock early, so it won't be a big deal.

It seems to me that nothing can really be done to prevent people breaking release dates, so I might as well myself.

~B.B.


So your saying that you are willing to go the distance and break rules of major companies, just to get on one...and I mean ONE DAY EARLY?!

See, this is what I don't get at all! Why would you want to go on a day early? I know that some people will say, "Ah well I want to get my ranks early and pwned noobz", "I want to Spoil people's dream, but showing the ending of Halo 3 because I want to ruin people's lives" and "So I have a better change of winning by exploring the maps before anyone else does!". What is the point?! Eventually, they will catch up to ya and learn better than you even if you had an extra day to prepared. Did you forget that no one will be in Matchmaking because no one but you will have the game!?

Speaking of Which!, I also would have to assume that the Halo 3 Servers would be still turn off anyways, which would mean that no one will be able to access the Matchmaking Playlists, so it wouldn't matter if you had the game or not, you won't be able to play any matchmaking games until after the Midnight hand strikes and the Servers for Halo 3 turn on for the first time.

Let me tell you something boy! I have the patience to wait for the game. In fact, I may have to wait more than just a day. (pre-order my copy online) My 360 just got the Rings of Doom recently last week. So now I am waiting for the box to come in to send it back, which I had not receive yet! So I don't see why you can become a greedy person and get one before anyone else.

So here is my question: Why would you go into all that mess just to play the game earlier than anyone else?

And heres another one! Why all of a sudden did you go against what you said in your first post?!
A Complete Reversal!!!

If you want to go ahead and get the game early, be my guest, but you better hope that no one knows about it...oh wait...We already know now :)
So going back to my statement from my first post in this topic...
Unless your the guy by the Disk making Machine and stupid enough to take one, then I don't see it happening.
End of Story. What more do you need?!

[Edited on 09.02.2007 10:35 PM PDT]

  • 09.02.2007 10:32 PM PDT

Posted by: BerserkerBarage
Fo...if we can't disagree and call each other names....what's the point of the forums?

I've just come to the conclusion that I'll go bribe my friend that is the manager of a Ebgames/GS to let me have H3 early. He owes me since I went to TRU to get him Bioshock early, so it won't be a big deal.

It seems to me that nothing can really be done to prevent people breaking release dates, so I might as well myself.

~B.B.


Why does something about this feel so ironic? If I saw the game in stores I would probably get it early as well but I would go back in the store afterwards and tell them Microsoft is going to screw them. If you bribe your friend the manager you are putting him in great danger if it is ever found out you bribed a employee.

  • 09.03.2007 7:11 AM PDT