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Subject: New forum system?
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You're ignoring that this is just a beta. You act as though this was ever meant to be a completed forum.

  • 12.03.2004 1:12 PM PDT
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Posted by: Vinkus
Recon, you are quite right. My Amazon and eBay comparisons were a little apples and oranges but the previous argument was that these forums are somehow supernaturally busy. So busy that one couldn't possibly expect any forum and underlying server to withstand the massive strain of it all; I just don't buy that argument.

Yes, this is "just" a software developer's web site. But it's Bungie's web site. The company responsible for what will be, by far, the best selling Xbox game this year. The company responsible for what was PREVIOUSLY one of the best selling Xbox games ever. The game was hyped, the stats and web site have been hyped with it. For the most part, it all lives up to it but the forums don't. Hell, they're barely adequate and they don't represent the company very well. That's all I'm getting at.

It's not a huge issue. You're right, it's all freebies for us....but I don't think it's too much to ask that all the forum topics get displayed on the page or that the damn thing have a search function. I just hope Bungie is getting some of their money back from Ideal Science or at least not paying them MORE to fix fundamental functions of the forums.



A question that's been lingering on my mind for a while now, is, why is there a need for a search function? Out of all the tools and options on Bungie.net, it'd get used the least. I certainly would have no wish to use it.

Still on the topic of the topic display issue, I'd agree that Ideal really do need to do something, and fast. Whether this means a better server, better management of the database, or some important fixes in the code, I don't know, but it should be done as soon as it can.

Then again, we ought to cut Bungie a bit of slack while the pride of their latest achievement settles in, but that doesn't mean Ideal shouldn't be working on a solution.

  • 12.03.2004 1:16 PM PDT
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Posted by: Tanikaze
You're ignoring that this is just a beta. You act as though this was ever meant to be a completed forum.


Considering the magnitude of Bungie.net, and the expectations it has to live up to, the build of the Forums should be irrelevant, all that should matter is the performance.

  • 12.03.2004 1:18 PM PDT

Tom Achronos
Bungie.net Overlord
twitter: http://twitter.com/Achronos

"I have no words that would do justice to the atrocities you commit to the English language, as well as your continued assaults on the concepts of basic literacy and logical reasoning."

The final word on the forum system:

1. This system won't be replaced. That's not an option, both from a time standpoint, and due to the fact that the solution you propose is like destroying a planet to kill one rat. It isn't necessary to start over to fix the problems. They're simply bugs in the system, not fundamental design flaws (which the old threaded forum had).
2. The topic listing problem is a bug that's caused by excessive load. We are preparing a fix, should go out fairly soon. The results are quite drastic.
3. Search was initially omitted because we wanted to do it right: an effective search that doesn't destroy performance is required for this site. It will be added early next year.
4. The fix mentioned in item #2 also helps quite a lot with speed. However, considering that any of the "traditional" options you're thinking about are ALL slower than what we have, you're not going to get faster by switch systems.
5. The bottom thingy can be minimized (press the little arrow). And if it was removed, the main navigation for the site would be gone.

  • 12.03.2004 1:20 PM PDT

Tom Achronos
Bungie.net Overlord
twitter: http://twitter.com/Achronos

"I have no words that would do justice to the atrocities you commit to the English language, as well as your continued assaults on the concepts of basic literacy and logical reasoning."

Posted by: Vinkus
Yep...awesome forums. Very professional. I'm a ASP/ASP.NET programmer by profession and if I launched a public app like this with this many bugs and no freakin' search function, I'd either be fired or stuck working nights and weekends until I got it fixed.


Okay, so I've reconsidered my post, based on your subsequent responses. There are a few things you have to realize about bungie.net. Unlike, say, xbox.com, or Amazon, or whoever, bungie.net is run by about 5 people. Of those, I am the only developer full time dedicated to it. Everybody else is either a contractor or a full time employee who has other responsibilities.

Second, we don't make any money. This is the primary reason why we're such a small team. It is hard to justify getting more help when we're not actually producing a product that people pay for (this is a free community site after all, it isn't even customer support).

Third, the perf problems are mostly addressed via our load handling plans. We peaked at 6million pageviews, and didn't crash. The bugs we are currently seeing in the forums, however, are the result of many users added very quickly and presenting a usage pattern somewhat different that our stress test. You can test all you want, but nothing compares to a million people using the system for real.

Fourth - when you have this many people using your website, you can't simply change things whenever you want. We have to be very careful when you change things, which is why it takes a while to fix things. We have to find, fix, and test, and then make sure we didn't break anything else. And we always find new stuff that was broken.

Fifth - Search. Search is easy. Good search is hard. And by good search, I'm talking about the kind that is effective enough so that people use it, AND one that performs well. Making a search that does both is hard (ask google). We're doing it right. If we just slapped a quick one up there (and we could), not only might it destroy perf, but it wouldn't fix the problem of people posting duplicates, because the search would most likely suck, and people wouldn't use it. So, we're doing it right. I'm sorry if it isn't quick enough for you, but that's not something I frankly care about - I care about getting right.

[Edited on 12/3/2004 1:43:11 PM]

  • 12.03.2004 1:27 PM PDT
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Say, isn't there a way you can use Google to search the forums? I know that when you are looking for pictures, sometimes you have the option to use your searchterm on a certain site (something like 'show more from [insert website here]') I don't know what exact searchterm you have to type in (obvious the url should be in there) but I'm not that good at figuring it out, so maybe some bright kid can figure it out? Cheers.

- Gnorn

  • 12.03.2004 2:26 PM PDT
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Thanks
Recon Number 54, for the clear explaination. Well, atleast we thought about it :-)

One other question, why are locked topics, and very old topics, not erased from the site? Would save heck of space.

  • 12.03.2004 2:47 PM PDT
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Posted by: Gnorn
Thanks
Recon Number 54, for the clear explaination. Well, atleast we thought about it :-)

One other question, why are locked topics, and very old topics, not erased from the site? Would save heck of space.


It's good to have an archive. That way you can always return to old threads for reference.

  • 12.03.2004 3:18 PM PDT
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Posted by: Tanikaze
Posted by: Gnorn
Thanks
Recon Number 54, for the clear explaination. Well, atleast we thought about it :-)

One other question, why are locked topics, and very old topics, not erased from the site? Would save heck of space.


It's good to have an archive. That way you can always return to old threads for reference.


I understand that... but you then end up with the search-function debat again. Seriously, would you go through +1000 threads -for example- to see if there is some answer in there to what you are looking for? New Mombasa posters (but that's not quit the comparison) don't even bother to look at page 2.

  • 12.03.2004 3:25 PM PDT
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Well, I mean like.. if you had the thread bookmarked.

  • 12.03.2004 3:35 PM PDT
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Posted by: Tanikaze
Well, I mean like.. if you had the thread bookmarked.


Ah, I see. I keep forgetting that I can bookmark them. My bad. O_o

Anywho, the threads that are really interesting are in here, or the Flood, for example, and these forums don't tend to grow as wildly as New Mombasa would. So flicking through 2 or 3 pages will show me the desired threads.

(edit: typo)

[Edited on 12/3/2004 3:59:20 PM]

  • 12.03.2004 3:58 PM PDT
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Posted by: Achronos
so I've reconsidered my post, based on your subsequent responses. There are a few things you have to realize about bungie.net. Unlike, say, xbox.com, or Amazon, or whoever, bungie.net is run by about 5 people. Of those, I am the only developer full time dedicated to it. Everybody else is either a contractor or a full time employee who has other responsibilities.

Second, we don't make any money. This is the primary reason why we're such a small team. It is hard to justify getting more help when we're not actually producing a product that people pay for (this is a free community site after all, it isn't even customer support).



There's the explanation of it all. I was not aware of that, would never have guessed that, and kudos to you in that case. I'm shocked to learn the size of the team. Shame on Bungie! Direct money-maker or not, this site is certainly a focus of the Halo 2 marketing campaign and it's pretty sad that it doesn't get better funding and staffing than that. I would have expected at least a temporary expansion of the team leading up to the Halo 2 launch to ensure the site was bullet-proof. I'm also surprised that apparently Microsoft contributes nothing? Bungie is fully owned by MS, no? I expected they'd host the site or contribute to the design and creation of it...something.

I'm pretty much out of comments then. ...well, almost... I admit, I'm not a fan of the bottom nav gizmo even with it shrunk smaller. I would scrap the help box on the right and put the nav stuff over there. I also wish the topic lists were easier to scan. The color scheme, font size, etc make it oddly difficult to read. The individual topics aren't distinguishable enough from their neighbors...not to my eyes, anyway!



  • 12.03.2004 4:42 PM PDT
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Posted by: Vinkus
Posted by: Achronos
so I've reconsidered my post, based on your subsequent responses. There are a few things you have to realize about bungie.net. Unlike, say, xbox.com, or Amazon, or whoever, bungie.net is run by about 5 people. Of those, I am the only developer full time dedicated to it. Everybody else is either a contractor or a full time employee who has other responsibilities.

Second, we don't make any money. This is the primary reason why we're such a small team. It is hard to justify getting more help when we're not actually producing a product that people pay for (this is a free community site after all, it isn't even customer support).



There's the explanation of it all. I was not aware of that, would never have guessed that, and kudos to you in that case. I'm shocked to learn the size of the team. Shame on Bungie! Direct money-maker or not, this site is certainly a focus of the Halo 2 marketing campaign and it's pretty sad that it doesn't get better funding and staffing than that. I would have expected at least a temporary expansion of the team leading up to the Halo 2 launch to ensure the site was bullet-proof. I'm also surprised that apparently Microsoft contributes nothing? Bungie is fully owned by MS, no? I expected they'd host the site or contribute to the design and creation of it...something.

I'm pretty much out of comments then. ...well, almost... I admit, I'm not a fan of the bottom nav gizmo even with it shrunk smaller. I would scrap the help box on the right and put the nav stuff over there. I also wish the topic lists were easier to scan. The color scheme, font size, etc make it oddly difficult to read. The individual topics aren't distinguishable enough from their neighbors...not to my eyes, anyway!


Shame on Bungie?

Just look what this web team has accomplished. A massive, professional website, that spare-time web designers such as myself look at in awe, covering every aspect of Bungie and it's games, as well as two major accomplishments that I'm yet to see elsewhere: Direct RSS feed Stats and the massively popular 7th Column.

The fact that the web team is Bungie and is small gives the place a personal feel. The more involved community members wouldn't settle for a crack team from MS to come in and mess around with the site until they make it how they feel it should be done.

Personally, I've no trouble with the navbar, and I don't see why lots seem to despise it. It's a nice, graphical method of navigating around the site. Nor do I have a problem with the skin -- in fact, it's one of the clearest I've seen.

  • 12.04.2004 1:58 AM PDT
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Just a site note to the apparent bug causing the first page not to show the proper number of topics:

I found out that if you then go to page 2, and there click on "first page" the first page will show all topics again - in most cases that is, doesn't work all the time. Cheers.

- Gnorn

  • 12.04.2004 6:50 AM PDT

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