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  • Subject: Is B.net a "community" that people would want to live in?
Subject: Is B.net a "community" that people would want to live in?

Tom Achronos
Bungie.net Overlord
twitter: http://twitter.com/Achronos

"I have no words that would do justice to the atrocities you commit to the English language, as well as your continued assaults on the concepts of basic literacy and logical reasoning."

I should point out that I have always been the most strict enforcer here. Shishka may have been strict, but you were lucky he got to you before I did. I have little tolerance for morons and people who think they can type whatever they want here without consequences.

As for the moderators, they themselves do a great job. Part of the problem we have though is an issue of consistency and coverage. The mods cannot be expected to catch everything; after all, they should be allowed to pariticpate in the forums too. It is a problem of numbers - there are way more people that need to be banned than actually get banned. It isn't a problem of too few moderators, because when you add more mods, issues of training and consistency come up.

What we need is something that allows us to leverage the users on this site in a way that helps the mods get pointed to where they are needed. It just so happens that I have something in mind to help with this. But as Halo 3 needs work, it will have to wait.

At any rate, the point here is that ragging on the mods about this kind of thing is not really productive conversation. And contrary to your opinion, groups still exist and some of them continue to be pretty vibrant, if smaller, communities.

  • 09.11.2007 11:55 AM PDT

Tom Achronos
Bungie.net Overlord
twitter: http://twitter.com/Achronos

"I have no words that would do justice to the atrocities you commit to the English language, as well as your continued assaults on the concepts of basic literacy and logical reasoning."

That didn't mean you weren't breaking the rules. Sounds like you almost are asking why the mods hassle you when you want to have "fun" but expect them to hit everyone else instead.

It doesn't work like that... it CAN'T work like that.

Posted by: MeechVII
When Zanzi was around, you could have some fun with people without having the soul send you a message. Groups and The Flood were also reliable sources of amusement. That's not really the case now IMO.

Perhaps I am just being nostalgic, but I don't really think so. I was pretty much fine with the site until rather recently. Seems to me the "community" is a community in the same sense that a prison population is, just without the obligation to stay and less butseks.

Get off my mommy.

  • 09.11.2007 12:00 PM PDT

.||./

My gamertag is SHADOWRIDERJP.

Bungie keeps getting more popular. The less number of people the less -blam!-s you have. The more people you have the more -blam!-s you have. You combat this by getting more strict. I think it is fine.

  • 09.11.2007 12:01 PM PDT

Posted by: MeechVII

When Zanzi was around, you could have some fun with people without having the soul send you a message. Groups and The Flood were also reliable sources of amusement. That's not really the case now IMO.


Our group is alive and kicking, but that's because we've made a concerted effort to not water down the membership with mongoloids. But I hear ya, the days of Thunderdome are over. With that comes good and bad.

Good = less of having to wade through mindless threads and flame wars that go on for days
Bad = Stricter policies which lead to a stale environment and creative members leaving

Face it, the increased strictness is a product of the population boom. Achronos and the mods had no choice but to impose a zero tolerance policy or else the H3 forum would run wild. But I'm sure this is the same thing people said when H1 and H2 came out.

  • 09.11.2007 12:37 PM PDT
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Posted by: DEATHPIMP72
Anyone but Foman. He smells like cheese.

Quick side note about consistency. "Inconsistency" definitely has a negative connotation to it, but it's not necessarily a bad thing. Things have never been consistent across different moderators; as already noted previously, Achronos and Shishka were always, respectively, the strictest and second-strictest with the rules. Inherently, the ability to say that someone is more or less strict reveals inconsistency. But inconsistency does not necessarily mean unfairness. It simply means that whether you are banned for 30 days, seven days, or not at all depends on who catches you. If you break the rules, you should expect punishment, and a complaint from a spammer that he got a 60-day ban when his buddy only got 30 days is silly.

Just like in the real world (where sometimes if you fight a speeding ticket, you will get off completely, and sometimes the judge will sentence you to traffic school, and sometimes the judge will sentence you to a $400 fine), a lot depends on who catches you breaking the rules and how they are with rule enforcement. That is the nature of subjectivity, and is a far better alternative than the only other viable method of enforcement, which would be mandatory harsh bans for every single violation of the rules.

For me, the mods are all doing great because in their own ways, they are very consistent with themselves and rarely -- if ever -- blatantly unfair. A person who breaks the rules should expect punishment of some sort, and they have no right to complain about its severity. To me, as long as the blacklistings and bans on this site occur only for violations of the rules, the severity (or lack thereof) of punishment does not need to be perfectly consistent. This reflects the real world and is perfectly acceptable, as it builds in the ability to evaluate specific circumstances.

Sorry, I know that's a bit off-topic to the original post, but I just wanted to add my thoughts on consistency.

As for community, of course it has changed and Meech is right. Compare it to a small town growing into a huge city. You don't know everyone walking down the street anymore, even though other benefits of living in a huge city are present. Huge cities need more strict law enforcement (you can't set off fireworks in your apartment, even though you might be able to do it in your backyard in a small town if nobody else lives near you) and with more law enforcers comes more inconsistency in their enforcement (once again -- not necessarily a bad thing). Also, in a small town, you're a lot more likely to personally know the mayor and have him drop by for dinner than in a larger city. Moreover, there comes less feeling of community, until you realize that there are places you can go where you do know almost everybody (your favorite bar, or social group, or wherever) and you can regain the sense of a smaller community within that large city.

To me, it's the same deal here -- we still have the groups, some of which are indeed quite active little communities (one of my most active groups has only 20 members). We also still have the Septagon, which despite its public nature, tends to see the same 40 or 50 posters on a regular basis (even though, granted, our topics of discussion here are limited). The web team still administers the site, even though it's less likely to be able to interact with each of us on a personal level due to the sheer size of the community. And moderators need to be more strict with rule enforcement because failure to do so would make the forums unreadable -- 50 people going off-topic is a lot worse than 5. To me it all makes perfect sense.

Communities that are awesome tend to attract more people and grow. I would expect nothing less of the Bungie Community. My advice is to recognize that this will result in less feeling of closeness. If you desire the close community feeling, you can still find it here -- if your groups suck, ask around and find some good ones. As far as rule enforcement goes, don't break the rules and you'll never have anything to worry about. It is, after all, possible to have fun while not breaking the rules :-)

[Edited on 09.11.2007 12:47 PM PDT]

  • 09.11.2007 12:39 PM PDT
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Now that you've taken the time to look at my sig, I actually regret not providing you with something more worthwhile.

Posted by: Achronos
That didn't mean you weren't breaking the rules. Sounds like you almost are asking why the mods hassle you when you want to have "fun" but expect them to hit everyone else instead.

It doesn't work like that... it CAN'T work like that.

Posted by: MeechVII
When Zanzi was around, you could have some fun with people without having the soul send you a message. Groups and The Flood were also reliable sources of amusement. That's not really the case now IMO.

Perhaps I am just being nostalgic, but I don't really think so. I was pretty much fine with the site until rather recently. Seems to me the "community" is a community in the same sense that a prison population is, just without the obligation to stay and less butseks.

Get off my mommy.

Admittedly, I do flirt with the line between what is acceptable and not from time to time, but I've rarely had any problems. I've not been hassled by the mods ever really. I got banned once or twice near the beginning of my time here and warned once shortly after the site update. My problem isn't even with the mods specifically, it's more with a change in the attitude of the site as a whole. The only other site I frequent with any regularity is worldofwarcraft.com. Their forums are a hideous pile of hate and complaint threads. It just seems to me that B.net is taking a turn towards being more like WoW.com. That may be inevitable with the growing number of users, but it doesn't make it any more of an enjoyable transition.

As for the groups thing, I know they're still around. I post in mine regularly. However, groups took a hit after the site update. I know this because every single group I was in dropped in activity and a few died outright.

This thread turned into something considerably more whiny than I intended it to be. I don't dislike the mods, Achronos, or even the site, but I could see a point in the future where I could start to and that irritates me. I don't want a reason to leave this site regardless of whether or not anyone would care if I did.

  • 09.11.2007 12:43 PM PDT

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Posted by: MeechVII

Admittedly, I do flirt with the line between what is acceptable and not from time to time, but I've rarely had any problems. I've not been hassled by the mods ever really. I got banned once or twice near the beginning of my time here and warned once shortly after the site update. My problem isn't even with the mods specifically, it's more with a change in the attitude of the site as a whole. The only other site I frequent with any regularity is worldofwarcraft.com. Their forums are a hideous pile of hate and complaint threads. It just seems to me that B.net is taking a turn towards being more like WoW.com. That may be inevitable with the growing number of users, but it doesn't make it any more of an enjoyable transition.

As for the groups thing, I know they're still around. I post in mine regularly. However, groups took a hit after the site update. I know this because every single group I was in dropped in activity and a few died outright.

This thread turned into something considerably more whiny than I intended it to be. I don't dislike the mods, Achronos, or even the site, but I could see a point in the future where I could start to and that irritates me. I don't want a reason to leave this site regardless of whether or not anyone would care if I did.


Well the rate of complaining and threats have increased it seems on te fourms but you have to look at the factors for which there occuring. Optimatch for example is flooded with constant complaining because of peoples favorite gametypes were removed aka BTB Skirmish. No Mods even approach the thread anymore and you get alot of stupid stuff. Other places like Halo 3 its really te same type of threads over and over again for which get really annoying. Too many fan boys right now more then ever. Were 14 days away from the huge release.

The Mods are different now. Ninja is gone. Recon post sometimes but rare. Pezza i saw one today but never on really. Shiska is gone as well. But with a new game the life of the community will be in greater numbers.


[Edited on 09.11.2007 1:09 PM PDT]

  • 09.11.2007 1:05 PM PDT

>> Eternal War
Help save humanity! Join the epic war against the invading Vallcry!

I am a proud user of correct spelling and grammar.

The community is becoming more immature every day, mostly in the Halo 3 Forum. It seems every time I look there, someone is getting flamed for posting a topic that has twenty clones floating around, not knowing a piece of information, for thinking of an idea, or just random flaming. This makes me angry to see the newest generation of members are going to be the worst yet. Although I'll admit I'm not as "old" as some other members, but I think that being a member for a full year is proof enough that the website is changing. I'm not saying change is bad, but when it's this "immature" kind of change, we just need to do something to keep it from happening.

I ask myself this question almost all the time when I see someone breaking the rules, "Why can't they just follow the rules?" Does it make them feel cool to show off the fifty blacklistings they own? As long as we are doing the best we can, then I can't really seem to find a way to make the Halo 3 forum grow up. Although it should die down after the game is released, people have less to beg for and flame about.



Posted by: Achronos
What we need is something that allows us to leverage the users on this site in a way that helps the mods get pointed to where they are needed. It just so happens that I have something in mind to help with this. But as Halo 3 needs work, it will have to wait.


For some reason, a Thread Flagging System comes to my mind....

  • 09.11.2007 1:21 PM PDT

Formerly known as BASs13 and One Point Three

The atmosphere has changed, but sadly, nothing lasts forever. I find this place a refuge from the Halo 3 and Flood forums. I saw the change happen a lot at the BioShock forums, I was one of the earlier posters and when the demo (and eventually the game) came out, we saw a huge influx. I lmow that these conditions will only be temporary, it'll cool down eventually.
Posted by: nuclear Halo
For some reason, a Thread Flagging System comes to my mind....
If they had that, the mods wouldn't be able to enjoy the forums. They do volunteer; they aren't paid.

  • 09.11.2007 1:37 PM PDT

I hate everything, but it's not my fault.

Ah, you miss the fun. Well, first of all, I'll point out the obvious: you were breaking the rules that were already there, so you can't blame us for finally enforcing them. Secondly, I think that perhaps you are finally tired of the stupidity of The Flood, but before you got tired of it you found it funny. I'm not sure The Flood has changed all that much, although I admit unique topics are scarce and it is increasingly infected by 4chan.

  • 09.11.2007 1:40 PM PDT
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The account I'm using is not my first. Before the Big Blue Bungie website came along I was a regular user, (and it was indeed alot easier to keep track of) so i feel i have a decent view of the 'before' and 'after' of this situation.
I have kept an eye on some of the goings on from time to time since then and only recently did i decided to have another attempt at integrating myself into this so called 'community,' and i created this new account.

I have never had any problems with the Mods, at any level, and I dont think they are in any way too strict. If you dont act like a tool you wont feel the repercussions that go hand in hand with being a tool.

I feel now though that much of the community feel of the bungie forums has been lost. Individual groups may still flourish, but these public forums have become less and less appealing to any newcomers i imagine. I have come to accept that, as has been said before, with the increase in the population, the ratio of moron : agreeable user will stay the same, but will apply to a much greater swathe of people.

My main issue has always been the attitude of players in game.
As far as i can tell, it began with Halo PC. It seems i can't find a single server which does not include at least one person who feels he must leave his caps lock on and spam the rest of us with barely coherent swearing and insults, often trying to see how many racial slurrs they can fit into a single line of text.

This soon bled into Halo 2 and now i cant find a server whos population does not major in foul mouthed preteens, insidentally, many of these are clearly not old enough to have even purchased the game legally as can be told by their angellic voices. Only now i have to listen to them through my speakers as they squeal "GET RAPED! GET RAPED!" if they kill me, or "OH MY GOD, YOU F****** HALO NERD! HALO NERD!" should i kill them.

It makes me sad.

  • 09.11.2007 1:44 PM PDT

Posted by: Ghandi 2
although I admit unique topics are scarce and it is increasingly infected by 4chan.


That's surprising. I thought one of the reasons for the new forum was an upgraded ability to clamp down on this stuff.

  • 09.11.2007 1:47 PM PDT

I hate everything, but it's not my fault.

Well yeah it's easier to get idiots who are begging for it and who tread the line constantly, but the 4chan mentality seems to be continually growing (people now will openly defend that hell-hole in The Flood, #moap is practically a less pr0n0graphic suburb of it, etc.) and it's extremely frustrating for me.

  • 09.11.2007 2:08 PM PDT
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Now that you've taken the time to look at my sig, I actually regret not providing you with something more worthwhile.

Posted by: Ghandi 2
Ah, you miss the fun. Well, first of all, I'll point out the obvious: you were breaking the rules that were already there, so you can't blame us for finally enforcing them. Secondly, I think that perhaps you are finally tired of the stupidity of The Flood, but before you got tired of it you found it funny. I'm not sure The Flood has changed all that much, although I admit unique topics are scarce and it is increasingly infected by 4chan.

If I was breaking so many rules, how would I make it this long with almost no repurcussions from the mods? I'm mostly a sarcastic bastard and if being a sarcastic bastard can get you banned, then Achronos himself would have a week of time out. The strictness doesn't impact me directly for the most part. It simply makes people too nervous to take part in anything other than the straight forward and 100% safe topics that pop up. That fear makes the forums less fun. If I were a bad member, I would have earned some bannings by now, but I haven't, other than two that were caused by ignorance of the rules probably around 2 years ago.

As for the stupidity of The Flood, it's my opinion that while The Flood does attract the idiots, it also attracts the most creative and interesting members. You can only talk about Halo so much, so if you want something else to chat about, The Flood is where you find it.

  • 09.11.2007 2:15 PM PDT

Posted by: MeechVII


As for the stupidity of The Flood, it's my opinion that while The Flood does attract the idiots, it also attracts the most creative and interesting members. You can only talk about Halo so much, so if you want something else to chat about, The Flood is where you find it.


The Flood used to give me the heebie jeebies. But after Zanzibar was brutally murdered, The Flood was the only forum I could stomach. It's definitely the most immature of all the forums (although H3 is closing ground at light speed), but like you said it's the only place for off topic discussion. But even in the Flood, there's way less leeway and tolerance from the ninjas.

  • 09.11.2007 2:28 PM PDT

Some times i will write something huge, full of opinion, and observation, but i just hit "cancel" instead. I try to censor what I say, or just keep quiet about how i feel in general regarding the forum, because i don't know what's best for it, but i try to help the best i can. The Flood is an off-topic forum, but a line has to be drawn somewhere. I don't see much of a difference except the preparation in the wake of a huge game release that's coming up. They're doing the best they can to look out for the well-being of the community.

  • 09.11.2007 2:28 PM PDT

2:10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
2:11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
2:12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

Absolutely not. This entire forum (for the most part) is full of close minded -blam!-s who disagree with anything that isn't included in the overall general opinion.

Which is why I hardly visit here anymore.

[Edited on 09.11.2007 2:42 PM PDT]

  • 09.11.2007 2:41 PM PDT

Sandswept Studios Design Director

Visit us and check out our games at Sandswept.net!

~~Pardon Our Dust.~~

I found something rather interesting today. Whilst watching the World of Warcraft forums (for about an hour over a friends shoulder), I noticed how similar to Bungie.net it was. Employees have special icons next to topics they've posted in/created, special colors for employees and moderators, and not a lot of ability to spam with signatures, colors, and avatars. Very similar. Now, this whole post is not necessarily about the WoW forums themselves, but what I saw there. (Note: I'm not a fan of WoW! ;)

A few differences from our forum?

- I didn't notice a single stupid link, meme, or other shenaniganry.
- When signing in to your account, you are ALWAYS given the Terms of Use and Code of Conduct, which the buttons "I agree to these rules etc." (or something similar) and "I disagree". Maybe we could use that? A very blatant "Tread carefully."?
- Proper grammar and punctuation, far more-so than the strange things you see in the Halo 3 Forum. (immediate example: "lol sounds good. too bad u dnt have it though!" Sure, people shouldn't be forced to have proper grammar and such, (as long as it's legible enough) but it was almost refreshing to see so many legible posts, all in a row. It's like the Septagon, only everywhere I looked.

Now, perhaps this is just because it's a different kind of player (note: PC gamers usually type better than console junkies) or some other reason, I do not know. However awesome Bungie.net is, that forum was pretty up to snuff on what a lot of you are saying Bungie.net should (or shouldn't?) be. Maybe we could take some tips/advice/examples from that forum (or others like it) and implement them here.

Also, it seems the moderators/employees are a lot more heartless and don't really care. You can apparently have your account banned for a LONG time for the simplest things. (Advertising stuff in the wrong forum can be a perma-ban, for example) That may be a huge part of it. .. And I feel like I'm getting off-topic somehow, so that's all I have to say. ;)

I like Bungie.net. It's a fun place. ;)

  • 09.11.2007 3:21 PM PDT
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I agree with Code Zero. I use to try and post on bnet when I could, but people on here exercise the internet (blam)-wad theory way too much. Close-minded wraps it up. Its one thing to disagree, but its another thing for me to read your disagreement complete with attacks about my man-hood and my sister. Here's another peeve using the H3 Forum. It was choked with new threads of the same general purpose. People just want their names in the author column of the thread.

Which is why I stopped checking here in the first place like Code Zero. My attention could better be placed elsewhere.

  • 09.11.2007 3:29 PM PDT

Trailer Park Boys ~ One of the best Canadian made comedies ever.

Looking forward to it.

It’s nice to see the Bungie online staff is still introducing new tools to help make this community function and interact better with one another than before.

Posted by: Achronos
What we need is something that allows us to leverage the users on this site in a way that helps the mods get pointed to where they are needed. It just so happens that I have something in mind to help with this. But as Halo 3 needs work, it will have to wait.

  • 09.11.2007 3:40 PM PDT
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I've been coming to this site since early 2004, and I really haven't noticed any big changes in the community. It seems every few weeks there is another one of these threads about how different this place is from back when they joined, when everything was better, and I always wonder if they're accurately remembering the past. If the mods are stricter I certainly haven't noticed it. Most of the time I wish they would be stricter than they currently are. Achronos isn't any snottier, and the general population of the forums have always been this nasty.

  • 09.11.2007 3:45 PM PDT
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achronos double posting? breaking rule mb?

  • 09.11.2007 3:47 PM PDT

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Posted by: brianv
achronos double posting? breaking rule mb?

What Achronos did was address two different subjects (raised by two different individuals) in two separate posts. That may count as double posting, but only in the "-blam!--retentive Rainman-impressionist" sense. It served an actual purpose other than inflating his own ego and unjustifiably putting the thread back at the top of the forum.

He also posted in sentences, with proper case lettering.

If you're going to call out staffers for misbehaviour, you might want to correct your own first.

-- Steve gets really annoyed at forum cops when they blow the call.

  • 09.11.2007 4:27 PM PDT
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I don't like how the flood has been treated lately by the mods. the flood has never been the best place to find an intelligent conversation. And it shouldn't be that way. The mods have now taken it upon themselves to determine when a thread is relevant or not for discussion. In the Flood a pie thread is just as insightful as a thesis on microbiology. Unless it is blatant spam, it should not be locked. The Flood used to be a place where you could stretch out and it was allowed some elbow room to be its own entity. Zaniness was not shut down just for being ludicrous. It needs to go back to that.

  • 09.11.2007 4:41 PM PDT

*Sgt

Meh.. I'll just stick this one through. I've done it so many times on this forum I have become insensitive to this "nostalgia" and "new suckage" etc etc

  • 09.11.2007 4:59 PM PDT