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Subject: I need to ask about a particular issue.......
  • gamertag: F0rger
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Okay, first off I won't mention any names at all.

Second, I have a friend, he was perma-banned some time ago, and both he and I and others would like to see him back on the forums, mods permitting.

But, before this gets locked for being about a specific user, I would like to propose something to the mods and the community about appealing to perma-bans. I think there should be some way for a perma-banned user to show the mods they've learned their lesson and are ready and acceptable to be back on the main forums. Before this gets written off as a horrible idea, and a time waster, hear me out.

Mods, I would assume, know the difference between someone who really has matured and seen what they did before as wrong, as opposed to someone who just wants to be back to wreak more havoc. Now, what I propose is that said perma-banned member would need the support of at least one mod. Once he has that, he can go to a Master Forum Ninja, or someone else with the authority to lift his ban, with the other mod's support, and appeal for a kind of probation period. During this period the Master Ninja could check up on said user, interview other members who've recently dealt with him, or interview other Ninjas about the user. It's almost like getting out of jail early for good behavior. If the Master Ninja feels the user has matured, and they have learned their lesson, then the user should be back on the forums.

Now, the user I mentioned earlier has the support of at least one mod, and would love to be back on the forums. This is the reason why I'm posting this, because I feel he can handle being back with a sense of maturity.

Please, I'm begging you to at least consider this.

Just for the record, I was not asked to post this. This of my own accord.

  • 09.13.2007 10:23 AM PDT

All permabans can be appealed to the great and onniscient Achronos.

  • 09.13.2007 10:28 AM PDT

Wow way too much work for the mods...:p

And one would think that he was perma-banned for a good reason...either that our he just kept getting black listed until finally perma-banned.

But can't he just make another account? (Different e-mail address?)

  • 09.13.2007 10:28 AM PDT

To recieve a perma-ban someone has to be a real jerk, or has done something very very wrong. Those accounts IMO don't deserve a second chance. Specially if it was related to in-game actions.

  • 09.13.2007 10:32 AM PDT
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Posted by: DarkishRav3n
Wow way too much work for the mods...:p

And one would think that he was perma-banned for a good reason...either that our he just kept getting black listed until finally perma-banned.

But can't he just make another account? (Different e-mail address?)

It was the second one.

And he refuses to make an alt because he knows it will hurt his already slim chances.

  • 09.13.2007 10:35 AM PDT
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"Whatever exists, whatever in creation exists without my knowledge exists without my consent. These anonymous creatures may seem little or nothing in the world. Yet the smallest crumb can devour us. Any smallest thing beneath yon rock out of men's knowing. Only nature can enslave man and only when the existence of each last entity is routed out and made to stand naked before him will he be properly suzerain of the earth."

Posted by: atomic weggie
All permabans can be appealed to the great and onniscient Achronos.


Bad Weggie! Bad!

Foregoing the question of the actual rule broken in order to warrant the bans, I think two questions really need to be asked:

1) How many times before has the person in question received warnings or been blacklisted?

2) How often did the person show a willingness to test the waters without getting a warning or blacklisting?

If the answer to either question is several times, I think the point is rather moot, since the person hasn’t shown any trends toward maturing in the past, and would be unlikely to show any such trends in the future.

But if, perhaps, said person merely made a very bad mistake one time and got a perma-ban, I think that such an appeal process or something similar could be in order for “second chances,” provided that after the instatement of such a policy the appeals that are granted usually turn out to be good ideas.

  • 09.13.2007 10:39 AM PDT
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Speak to the omniscient, omnipotent Achronos. If he has and his ban hasn't been appealed he's obviously not wanted on the site by him which means he must be a huge dick weed.

  • 09.13.2007 10:41 AM PDT
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Posted by: Mabian
Posted by: atomic weggie
All permabans can be appealed to the great and onniscient Achronos.


Bad Weggie! Bad!

Foregoing the question of the actual rule broken in order to warrant the bans, I think two questions really need to be asked:

1) How many times before has the person in question received warnings or been blacklisted?

2) How often did the person show a willingness to test the waters without getting a warning or blacklisting?

If the answer to either question is several times, I think the point is rather moot, since the person hasn’t shown any trends toward maturing in the past, and would be unlikely to show any such trends in the future.

But if, perhaps, said person merely made a very bad mistake one time and got a perma-ban, I think that such an appeal process or something similar could be in order for “second chances,” provided that after the instatement of such a policy the appeals that are granted usually turn out to be good ideas.
Mabian, I can atest that being banned several times and receiving several warnings is not usually done on purpose. Recently I've been banned and warned a little more than I'd like, but I caught myself. It wasn't anything I was trying to do, it just kept happening. I would flame spammers, bash idiots, and generally get in trouble. All of those were done on purpose, but not to try and get banned or warned.


The user I'm trying to help was actually blacklisted several times, I'm not sure exactly when he was banned, but it wasn't recent. I've seen him in groups and can testify to his increase in maturity since.

  • 09.13.2007 10:47 AM PDT
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A problem with a setup like this is that it gives the ninjas too much work. Think about it, now, they patrol the forums and hand out bans, locks, and warnings.

Your idea would add to what they have to do. In addition to what I've already mentioned, they would have to listen to anyone who wanted to whine about a permaban, try and decide whether or not they've "matured." (Seriously? That's kinda taking this thing too seriously. It sounds more like rehabilitation of a criminal than someone being a jerk on the Internet. If you want an account that badly, just make a new one....) Once they've "analyzed whether or not the inmate is properly rehabilitated," they can choose to allow him a "parole period" during which they watch them and their posts. With one person this might not be horribly bad, but if every idiot who got permabanned was able to use this appeal process then the mods would have to spend a lot more time on Bnet.

Basically, what you're asking is that, in addition to all they already do, you want them to spend several more hours to determine whether or not people who have been jerks enough to get permabanned are worth letting back into the community. To be honest, it's not their responsibility and they shouldn't be even considered for such a task. No offense to your friend, but whether or not he's matured isn't really the ninjas' concern.

You do realize that moderators/ninjas are only Bungie fans who patrol the forums on their free time, right? They don't get paid, and they don't have 40 hours a week to devote to this "job." It's more or less volunteer work... no pay, and little appreciation from the community. Honestly, I think it's a little selfish to have even asked for this.

Lastly, let me quote the Bnet Code of Conduct:
The Short Version
Bungie controls everything. You have no rights. Play nice.

Sorry... bad idea. Is there a reason your friend can't just make a new account?

  • 09.13.2007 10:48 AM PDT
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The only reason why I think this would work is because the user would have to gain the support of a mod to even think about appealing. Gaining that support would not be done a parole period, it would have to be done in groups, unofficially, so it does not take up said mod's time.

Only then can they go to a Master Forum Ninja, and then the Master Ninja can decide if he even wants to help.

  • 09.13.2007 10:51 AM PDT

Posted by: Mabian
Posted by: atomic weggie
All permabans can be appealed to the great and onniscient Achronos.


Bad Weggie! Bad!

Foregoing the question of the actual rule broken in order to warrant the bans, I think two questions really need to be asked:

1) How many times before has the person in question received warnings or been blacklisted?

2) How often did the person show a willingness to test the waters without getting a warning or blacklisting?

If the answer to either question is several times, I think the point is rather moot, since the person hasn’t shown any trends toward maturing in the past, and would be unlikely to show any such trends in the future.

But if, perhaps, said person merely made a very bad mistake one time and got a perma-ban, I think that such an appeal process or something similar could be in order for “second chances,” provided that after the instatement of such a policy the appeals that are granted usually turn out to be good ideas.


Who cares, let Achronos figure it out. There's a process.

1. Get permabanned by a ninja
2. Appeal permaban to Achronos
3. Achronos looks into why you were permabanned
4. Decides it was fair and upholds said permaban OR reduces to a blacklist OR takes away permaban entirely

I know, cause I was permabanned unfairly once and got it reversed.

  • 09.13.2007 10:52 AM PDT
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Posted by: X 10000 Fists X
The only reason why I think this would work is because the user would have to gain the support of a mod to even think about appealing. Gaining that support would not be done a parole period, it would have to be done in groups, unofficially, so it does not take up said mod's time.

Only then can they go to a Master Forum Ninja, and then the Master Ninja can decide if he even wants to help.


What? How are they supposed to first get the support of a moderator without taking up the mods time? Track him down at home and have tea and cookies? I mean seriously... to gain the support of a mod, you need a mod to devote his attention to you for a certain period of TIME.

And, whether or not it's "unofficial" or "in groups" (whatever that means) someone is going to have to watch these parolees (i.e. assess whether or not they've "matured."). If you don't want to take up any of the mods' time, who's going to watch our little miscreants? Certainly not anyone actually from Bungie, that's for damn sure.

Still... bad idea.

EDIT:
Posted by: X 10000 Fists X
...appeal for a kind of probation period. During this period the Master Ninja could check up on said user, interview other members who've recently dealt with him, or interview other Ninjas about the user. It's almost like getting out of jail early for good behavior...

*facepalm* How is that not "parole!?"

[Edited on 09.13.2007 11:04 AM PDT]

  • 09.13.2007 10:57 AM PDT
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Posted by: Dickman
Posted by: X 10000 Fists X
The only reason why I think this would work is because the user would have to gain the support of a mod to even think about appealing. Gaining that support would not be done a parole period, it would have to be done in groups, unofficially, so it does not take up said mod's time.

Only then can they go to a Master Forum Ninja, and then the Master Ninja can decide if he even wants to help.


What? How are they supposed to first get the support of a moderator without taking up the mods time? Track him down at home and have tea and cookies? I mean seriously... to gain the support of a mod, you need a mod to devote his attention to you for a certain period of TIME.

And, whether or not it's "unofficial" or "in groups" (whatever that means) someone is going to have to watch these parolees. If you don't want to take up any of the mods' time, who's going to watch our little miscreants? Certainly not anyone actually from Bungie, that's for damn sure.

Still... bad idea.

Listen, the mods don't need to do any of this. This process would depend solely on their consent to give their time willingly. If they don't want to they don't have to. They aren't obliged to watch this person every waking moment. Just when they feel like it.

  • 09.13.2007 11:01 AM PDT
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And they're supposed to be able to properly do all this, "Just when they feel like it?"

...a kind of probation period. During this period... check up on said user, interview other members who've recently dealt with him, or interview other Ninjas...

If you want this process to work, and you want it to work properly and be fair, it's going to take more time than "whenever the ninjas feel like it." If your ban is appealed because a ninja happens to "feel like it" that day, then it is unfair to anyone else who was unable to appeal their ban because the ninjas either didn't have time or didn't "feel like it." This would result in people going to Achronos with pleas of , "So-n-so got an appeal but I didn't! Not fair!" Which, in turn, also gives Achronos more work.

So, basically, implementing this plan for the ninjas to take care of "whenever" will result in one thing: The ninjas will get tired of hearing people whine about permabans and automatically ignore most requests for one. Then, Achronos will get tired of hearing people whine about the ninjas not accepting the appeal process and cancel the idea all together.

So, basically, even with the system you suggest, a person would have as much of a chance getting a ban lifted as they do now, with Achronos. Brilliant!

Still... bad idea.

[Edited on 09.13.2007 11:18 AM PDT]

  • 09.13.2007 11:16 AM PDT
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Instead of me posting some fancy wording on how the admins should do their job, I'll just use this from the Code of Conduct webpage.
And even to make it better, I will go with the "short version" of the whole thing.
http://www.bungie.net/help/code_of_conduct.aspx
The Short Version
Bungie controls everything. You have no rights. Play nice.


[Edited on 09.13.2007 11:51 AM PDT]

  • 09.13.2007 11:45 AM PDT
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*head to desk action*

This system won't be some quick'n easy scam to get off of a ban, it's something that will take time, so it won't consume the moderator's time.
First, it would take time to gain a moderator's support when you don't even have access to the forums, second, this person would have to approach this mod and ask him if he will help. If the mod says yes than the person and the moderator go to a mod with higher authority. Depending on the credibility of the lower mod, the reason for the ban, and how long ago it happened, the mod with the higher authority will decide whether or not said person deserves a chance. If yes, than the mod with the higher authority can monitor the user by any means he deems necessary. This way it is the moderator's choice, however he wants to run it. Now, to address the whiny jerks. Most of these people would have to go to a lower mod first, and if they haven't matured, they won't even get a chance. They cut it off there. Sure, they can go to the higher-ups, but how hard is it to delete an unwanted PM?

  • 09.13.2007 11:50 AM PDT

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There is already an appeal process in place. The member can message a Master Moderator to request a second look at the ban; if that member doesn't get an answer they feel is suitable, they can then message Achronos to review the ban and see if it's appropriate.

Adding new levels of complexity to the process only makes things tougher, for both the Moderators and members.

-- Steve likes keeping things as simple as possible.

  • 09.13.2007 11:52 AM PDT
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=[

I tried...

  • 09.13.2007 11:57 AM PDT
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You didn't really fail. This process can be put into action anyways, as the rules currently stand. He already has the support of one mod. The user should write a PM to achronos explaining why he should be unbanned, and ask the mod to write a PM to Achronos as well, explaining why they think the user deserves a chance. The only thing you're not going to get is an official probation, but that really just means that the user has to make a better case.

I think it's better to keep such a "system" unofficial anyways. Getting moderator approval requires the person to know a moderator, and not everyone here does. It would seem a bit discriminatory to put that kind of thing in the rule book. I know that kind of sounds like I'm saying that favoritism is alright as long as no one notices.... and well maybe I am. :/ But that's the way the world works anyways.... people who know someone are inherently going to be trusted more than someone who no one has any personal experience with.

Also, I don't think that there is a big enough pool of permabanned users who are now mature to warrant such a system being put in place.

  • 09.13.2007 12:13 PM PDT

-S

"Hi. I was blacklisted several times before being permanently blacklisted from the forums. Despite the number of times I showed clear enough disregard for the rules, I would like to be unblacklisted. I promise to behave because now I am mature. In fact, I'm mature enough to ask a friend to break the rules to try to help my appeal process!"

I would say the only smart thing the blacklisted could do is man up and either approach a master forum ninja or Achronos, explain what he did to get banned, what his record was, and why anyone should believe that a person that has been blacklisted multiple times has had some internal dial set magically to "mature," and will not cause trouble again.

  • 09.13.2007 2:01 PM PDT

Posted by: X 10000 Fists X
=[

I tried...


You never told us if your "friend" already tried to appeal to Achronos or a master forum ninja. People rag on Achronos, but in the end he is a very fair supreme poobah dictator ruler of the free world in which we are allowed to breath only because of his unparalleled benevolence.

  • 09.13.2007 2:21 PM PDT

Actually he never really told us what his friend did in the first place. What he did say was "It was the second one.", so it sounds like the first account was perma banned too.

[Edited on 09.13.2007 2:28 PM PDT]

  • 09.13.2007 2:27 PM PDT
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Ultimately you're going to have to resort to creating a new profile. There is a way to prevent new profiles you make from being banned, though for reasons of self preservation I won't divulge the specifics here.

  • 09.13.2007 9:42 PM PDT

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People are perma-banned for severely breaking the CoC or the ToU.

I don't think they should even have an appeal process for such things.

  • 09.13.2007 9:50 PM PDT
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Posted by: Anton P Nym
There is already an appeal process in place. The member can message a Master Moderator to request a second look at the ban; if that member doesn't get an answer they feel is suitable, they can then message Achronos to review the ban and see if it's appropriate.

Adding new levels of complexity to the process only makes things tougher, for both the Moderators and members.

-- Steve likes keeping things as simple as possible.

I think you're just lazy.

:P

  • 09.13.2007 10:04 PM PDT

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