Halo 1 & 2 for PC
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Subject: How Bungie Makes Great Games
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I Love you guys on the PC forums (in a straight way,) and wanted you guys to get the same information that I posted on the Halo 3 forums. So i hope you guys enjoy. :)


I am not anti-Halo. I'm a PC gamer, and I have both *bad* halo games made by Gearbox and Hired Gun. I am saddened by Bungie's choice to abandon its PC and MAC friends, to go work for the XBOX goliath. So I hope you can understand that I do not hate Bungie for their decision, but at the same time, I do not see them as entirely honest. I feel that Bungie has been "tainted" (for lack of a better word,) after being annexed by microsoft. So let me explain this taint. This is not a rant. In this post I hope to be as concise as possible, so grab a cold soda or something, get comfortable, this is gonna be a bumpy ride. If you don't have a care for history, then jump to the end. If you would like to see what Microsoft, Bungie, Ensemble, and Command and Conquer have in common, read on.

Our story begins when Bungie was a growing seedling in the great forest, that was the 90s videogaming market. They were a company dedicated to MAC users, and were responsible for great games including Myth and Marathon. Myth was an RTS, Marathon aws an FPS, both completely innovative and overall incredible games for their time. So what does Bungie do next after finishing their excursions in Myth and Marathon? Theuy do what every company does, create a new incredible game series, and name this one, Halo. Sounf familiar? Good, because it should, pat yourselves on the back.

Halo was originally supposed to be a great RTS, pushing the envelope further, surpassing the great Myth RTS. But as you probably already know, Microsoft stepped in, and took them over. Why did Microsoft annex Bungie? To push their new Xbox console. With microsoft entering the videogaming battle, they needed good names, and they chose Halo. Halo was thereby transformed into an FPS, and the rest is history. But stop the fast forward in 2005 after the release of Halo 2.

Halo 2 comes out after massive hype, and is a great sequel. For those of you who disagree, please bare with me, as I am starting to get to my point. The PC Gamers had been abandoned by Bungie, and we do what we always do best, that is mod great games. Out comes Command and Conquer Generals: Zero Hour, and what do we do? Well, we start to create the coolest mod ever, by turning CNC into a Halo RTS, otherwise known as Halogen.

Fast forward again to fall 2006. Halogen has apparently been discontinued, as Microsoft has politle asked them to cease production of HaloGen, mere weeks before its public FREE release. Two weeks later, the first trailer for Halo Wars comes out. Are you starting to see something yet? If not bare with me, it'll become obvious soon.

Fast forward to fall 2007, and out comes Halo 3, the smash hit. There is one particular piece that catches my eye, which I am fairly certain, hasn't caught yours. The Mongoose, does anyone know where this ATV cme from? Obviously the minds at Bungie, correct? My friends you are mistaken.

That's right, I am implying plagarism. But how could I? Let's go back again to HaloGen. You can visit the official site of the mod at this link.

LINK: http://halogen.slipstreamproductions.net
Did you click there and realize that it doesn't exist? But wouldn't you like to know at least what it looked like. If not, click anyway, because this is the basis of my entire argument. Through the wonders of the Internet Archive, I am able to present to you, what this site looked like, some 2 years ago, under a different domain name.

LINK: http://web.archive.org/web/20051129021607/http://www.derelict studios.net/halo/index.php

They updated it, and the end result was incredible. Here was the last updated site, before it was discontinued.

LINK: http://web.archive.org/web/20050809005851/http://halogen.slip streamproductions.net

If you care about what I am saying about Bungie, let me point this out to you in case you haven't already seen it. Click the second link (the last update for the site.) Do you see on the lower panel an image of an atv? It's the grayed out link for " media." Does this look like a Mongoose or is it mere coincidence. I know you are now saying, "Well, it's only another ATV. It's not that big of a deal." Well my friend, you have missed something very very big. It is what we call DIRECT PLAGARISM. The infringement upon a person's own thoughts. Click the 2nd link and scroll down to see a picture of this ATV. Read it. It should say, "In todays update, I've picked to show the final Mongoose (ATV) texture, The updated texture for the Light War factory and the completely re-designed Skyhawk interceptor. First off, The ATV has been nicknamed the Mongoose. It depends on its high speed, quick maneuverability, and cheap design to escape and evade enemy fire. It has minimal firepower, and lacks any kind of armor, but it can remain hidden from the enemies while not moving."

When I saw this, I said something like "DID YOU SEE THAT, IT SAID MONGOOSE. IT SAID F***ING MONGOOSE. THEY STOLE THE F***ING VEHICLE AFTER THEY KNOCKED THEM OFF WITH LEGAL RIGHTS." If you think this cannot be, look at this picture.

LINK: http://web.archive.org/web/20060218055055/www.derelictstudios .net/site/halo/images/ATVSkin.jpg

THAT's WHAT YOU CALL PLAGARISM!!!

I do not wish to deter your image of Halo 3 as a great game. But I simply wish to point this "minor" detail out. I will continuing playing Halo 2 Vista online and will be continually disappointed by Bungie. I hope all of you guys the best gaming experience on Halo 3, as I do not have a 360, and do not intend to get one (though I really want to play Halo 3 because it's soo 1337.) Wish you guys the best of luck. :)

Sincerely,

Recoton007



[Edited on 09.30.2007 5:10 PM PDT]

  • 09.30.2007 4:25 PM PDT

HMdz! Halomaps clan. Awsome clan!
Jesus died on Friday and took two days to respawn. Talk about lag.
Why you looking at my sig? You must be bored.

good agrument R007 but one problom your links there dead :\

  • 09.30.2007 4:49 PM PDT
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TY Halo2Vista for the url fix. :)

[Edited on 09.30.2007 5:21 PM PDT]

  • 09.30.2007 5:04 PM PDT

Posted by: Recoton007
I Love you guys on the PC forums (in a straight way,) and wanted you guys to get the same information that I posted on the Halo 3 forums. So i hope you guys enjoy. :)


I am not anti-Halo. I'm a PC gamer, and I have both *bad* halo games made by Gearbox and Hired Gun. I am saddened by Bungie's choice to abandon its PC and MAC friends, to go work for the XBOX goliath. So I hope you can understand that I do not hate Bungie for their decision, but at the same time, I do not see them as entirely honest. I feel that Bungie has been "tainted" (for lack of a better word,) after being annexed by microsoft. So let me explain this taint. This is not a rant. In this post I hope to be as concise as possible, so grab a cold soda or something, get comfortable, this is gonna be a bumpy ride. If you don't have a care for history, then jump to the end. If you would like to see what Microsoft, Bungie, Ensemble, and Command and Conquer have in common, read on.

Our story begins when Bungie was a growing seedling in the great forest, that was the 90s videogaming market. They were a company dedicated to MAC users, and were responsible for great games including Myth and Marathon. Myth was an RTS, Marathon aws an FPS, both completely innovative and overall incredible games for their time. So what does Bungie do next after finishing their excursions in Myth and Marathon? Theuy do what every company does, create a new incredible game series, and name this one, Halo. Sounf familiar? Good, because it should, pat yourselves on the back.

Halo was originally supposed to be a great RTS, pushing the envelope further, surpassing the great Myth RTS. But as you probably already know, Microsoft stepped in, and took them over. Why did Microsoft annex Bungie? To push their new Xbox console. With microsoft entering the videogaming battle, they needed good names, and they chose Halo. Halo was thereby transformed into an FPS, and the rest is history. But stop the fast forward in 2005 after the release of Halo 2.

Halo 2 comes out after massive hype, and is a great sequel. For those of you who disagree, please bare with me, as I am starting to get to my point. The PC Gamers had been abandoned by Bungie, and we do what we always do best, that is mod great games. Out comes Command and Conquer Generals: Zero Hour, and what do we do? Well, we start to create the coolest mod ever, by turning CNC into a Halo RTS, otherwise known as Halogen.

Fast forward again to fall 2006. Halogen has apparently been discontinued, as Microsoft has politle asked them to cease production of HaloGen, mere weeks before its public FREE release. Two weeks later, the first trailer for Halo Wars comes out. Are you starting to see something yet? If not bare with me, it'll become obvious soon.

Fast forward to fall 2007, and out comes Halo 3, the smash hit. There is one particular piece that catches my eye, which I am fairly certain, hasn't caught yours. The Mongoose, does anyone know where this ATV cme from? Obviously the minds at Bungie, correct? My friends you are mistaken.

That's right, I am implying plagarism. But how could I? Let's go back again to HaloGen. You can visit the official site of the mod at this link.

LINK: http://halogen.slipstreamproductions.net
Did you click there and realize that it doesn't exist? But wouldn't you like to know at least what it looked like. If not, click anyway, because this is the basis of my entire argument. Through the wonders of the Internet Archive, I am able to present to you, what this site looked like, some 2 years ago, under a different domain name.

LINK: http://web.archive.org/web/20051129021607/http://www.derelict studios.net/halo/index.php

They updated it, and the end result was incredible. Here was the last updated site, before it was discontinued.

LINK: http://web.archive.org/web/20050809005851/http://halogen.slip streamproductions.net

If you care about what I am saying about Bungie, let me point this out to you in case you haven't already seen it. Click the second link (the last update for the site.) Do you see on the lower panel an image of an atv? It's the grayed out link for " media." Does this look like a Mongoose or is it mere coincidence. I know you are now saying, "Well, it's only another ATV. It's not that big of a deal." Well my friend, you have missed something very very big. It is what we call DIRECT PLAGARISM. The infringement upon a person's own thoughts. Click the 2nd link and scroll down to see a picture of this ATV. Read it. It should say, "In todays update, I've picked to show the final Mongoose (ATV) texture, The updated texture for the Light War factory and the completely re-designed Skyhawk interceptor. First off, The ATV has been nicknamed the Mongoose. It depends on its high speed, quick maneuverability, and cheap design to escape and evade enemy fire. It has minimal firepower, and lacks any kind of armor, but it can remain hidden from the enemies while not moving."

When I saw this, I said something like "DID YOU SEE THAT, IT SAID MONGOOSE. IT SAID F***ING MONGOOSE. THEY STOLE THE F***ING VEHICLE AFTER THEY KNOCKED THEM OFF WITH LEGAL RIGHTS." If you think this cannot be, look at this picture.

LINK: http://web.archive.org/web/20060218055055/www.derelictstudios .net/site/halo/images/ATVSkin.jpg

THAT's WHAT YOU CALL PLAGARISM!!!

I do not wish to deter your image of Halo 3 as a great game. But I simply wish to point this "minor" detail out. I will continuing playing Halo 2 Vista online and will be continually disappointed by Bungie. I hope all of you guys the best gaming experience on Halo 3, as I do not have a 360, and do not intend to get one (though I really want to play Halo 3 because it's soo 1337.) Wish you guys the best of luck. :)

Sincerely,

Recoton007


Links fixed

[Edited on 09.30.2007 5:16 PM PDT]

  • 09.30.2007 5:14 PM PDT

Very good post, +rep....

Oh wait. We dont have that feature.

  • 09.30.2007 5:21 PM PDT

Hello! Star Wars FTW. Also, join the MAW group. Please?

Sorry pal, but next time do your research. The mongoose was invented by Bungie for use in halo 2, but was later pulled. The makers of Halogen did not come up with the mongoose.

http://halo.wikia.com/wiki/Mongoose#Involvement_in_Halo_2

  • 09.30.2007 6:03 PM PDT
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Posted by: Sergeant Pepper
Sorry pal, but next time do your research. The mongoose was invented by Bungie for use in halo 2, but was later pulled. The makers of Halogen did not come up with the mongoose.

http://halo.wikia.com/wiki/Mongoose#Involvement_in_Halo_2

/ownt

Also, wasn't the Mongoose in one of the Halo books?

  • 09.30.2007 6:38 PM PDT
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Posted by: Sergeant Pepper
Sorry pal, but next time do your research. The mongoose was invented by Bungie for use in halo 2, but was later pulled. The makers of Halogen did not come up with the mongoose.

http://halo.wikia.com/wiki/Mongoose#Involvement_in_Halo_2


This comes as new information to me, so as I frequently say in the past, I accept my mistake as I love to learn new things everyday. As I said before, I'm a PC gamer, so I did not have the pleasure of having this concept art packet with the mongoose, among possibly many other cool things. I do own all of the books, but cannot recall a mention of a mongoose atv in them. Maybe there was, but to tell you honestly, I can't remember as it was so long ago. Anyway, thx for the clear up. I don't mean to speak slander on the board, of Bungie, which is why whenever I say something, I support it with as much evidence as possible.

In my posting, I was partially hoping to possibly breathe new life into what is and will remain a dead mod for CNC:G:ZH. To bad we PC gamers, have to wait, probably until 2009 at earliest for Halo 3, let alone a game similar to Halo Wars. HaloGen would have been an incredible mod, but Microsoft, after watching it very carefully, had ultimately seen it as a threat to Halo Wars, and decided to strike it down. I have searched, and there is no underground HaloGen underway. So, thx again Sergeant Pepper for the clear up. I might see you sometime on Halo 2 Vista. :)

- Recoton007

[Edited on 09.30.2007 7:13 PM PDT]

  • 09.30.2007 7:11 PM PDT
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Meh, s'ok i do think M$ are a$$wipes for knocking of HaloGen though... and hey is M$ making HaloWars for PC? NO! I dont think M$ shoulda been able to pull legal rights on them, and they werent profiting in anyway, why the hell could M$ pull legality on them?

  • 09.30.2007 7:13 PM PDT

Slaying noobs since 2007.

Posted by: cHr0n0sPh3r3
Meh, s'ok i do think M$ are a$$wipes for knocking of HaloGen though... and hey is M$ making HaloWars for PC? NO! I dont think M$ shoulda been able to pull legal rights on them, and they werent profiting in anyway, why the hell could M$ pull legality on them?
What. The. Hell.

  • 09.30.2007 7:24 PM PDT
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Posted by: cHr0n0sPh3r3
Meh, s'ok i do think M$ are a$$wipes for knocking of HaloGen though... and hey is M$ making HaloWars for PC? NO! I dont think M$ shoulda been able to pull legal rights on them, and they werent profiting in anyway, why the hell could M$ pull legality on them?


I really think you should go read the copyright laws in your region. Bungie and Microsoft had legal justification in shutting down Halogen. It was their story/universe/characters/etc, that were being used to make Halogen. It's called intellectual property. While most companies wouldn't really give a hoot if someone was making a game mod from their work if it's non-profit, but they still have a legal right to shut it down if they so desire. And since Ensemble Studios was developing Halo Wars they saw Halogen as a threat to the potential earning ability of the game. Therefore they requested it to be stopped. While it might not have been a popular decision, as is made obvious by the replies to the thread. Microsoft and Bungie were legally justified in there actions.

  • 10.01.2007 11:41 AM PDT
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So let me get this straight. You wrote ten paragraphs to make a minor point at which you thought that Bungie had "stolen" the idea of the Mongoose from Halogen? Probably should've Googled the Mongoose in the first place. It was a concept design even before Halo 2. And more so, I know this may also be a shock to you, given that you don't do any research at all, but your beloved Bungie was responsible for the ports to the PC. They mandated the lovely Halo 1 PC net code too. So stop blaming the scape goat and look to the people who are actually responsible.

  • 10.01.2007 12:14 PM PDT
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Posted by: Agamemnon582bc
So let me get this straight. You wrote ten paragraphs to make a minor point at which you thought that Bungie had "stolen" the idea of the Mongoose from Halogen? Probably should've Googled the Mongoose in the first place. It was a concept design even before Halo 2. And more so, I know this may also be a shock to you, given that you don't do any research at all, but your beloved Bungie was responsible for the ports to the PC. They mandated the lovely Halo 1 PC net code too. So stop blaming the scape goat and look to the people who are actually responsible.

I don't wish to shock you, but I do my research. I had not found a mongoose in any halo before halo 3, so seeing it for the first time in a concept art packet was a surprise to me. Unfortunately, Bungie is not responsible for either "heeps of c***" released by both Gearbox and Hired Gun. With the exception of making the original coding of the game, they in no way aided Gearbox or Hired Gun. To further show how Bungie has lost control over their own company, Hired Gun is a group of ten people working at Microsoft Game Studios (hint: Microsoft is in full control of Bungie, so in a way they can no longer freely make the games they want, like when they made Myth and Marathon.) What I am saying is that Bungie has changed, and even though the same people are working there, the Bungie that everyone knew and loved, is gone. So in this, I am saying that they are NOT responsible for the ports. By saying this, I am also preserving Bungie's image as a good company, because I don't believe that the halo ports did justice to the original games. I am not blaming a scapegoat.

I am frustrated when Microsoft exercises its power and "flexes its muscles," by knocking off small groups of five fan-boys at a time, after years of toil. if you are aware, a 2D interpretation of Bungie's Halo was created as a free game download for the Visualboy. Despite the large amount of publicity, which CLEARLY caught Microsoft's eye, this game/mod was not forced to close up shop. In this, I blame Microsoft for being a money hungry Corporation, willing to take down its fans who just want to have some fun. Mods off of games are made all the time. For example, there is a Star Wars mod for Battlefield 1942, and even when it recieved a lot of publicity from modding websites, Lucas Arts let production continue. Why is this? Because Lucas Arts is not (in more understandable terms for you) -blam!-.

  • 10.01.2007 4:04 PM PDT

Slaying noobs since 2007.

Well, you didn't look hard enough. 'The Mongoose' was a concept back when Halo was an 'rts'. And, don't try to act all-knowing. It's not working out for you.

  • 10.01.2007 4:20 PM PDT
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All-Knowing?!? I just said previously that I am not all knowing. I learn new things everyday. In this case, I was completely unaware of the existence of the mongoose concept in the original halo game. I searched for previous references to the mongoose and all i found were a bunch of sites referencing it from Halo 3. So until this thread, I was left uniformed. jeez...

  • 10.01.2007 4:42 PM PDT

Slaying noobs since 2007.

So, you don't call being overtly arrogant being self-proclaimed 'all-knowing'? Right. Somebody is trippin.

  • 10.01.2007 4:46 PM PDT
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Maw

After making Marathon, they didn't do what any good game manufacturer would do, they went with something a little closer to ONI.

Also, there are a couple other cases of apparent plagiarism, but for my own sake I won't point them out.

  • 10.01.2007 4:59 PM PDT

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Relax he admitted he was wrong, which nearly made me fall out of my chair cuz we all know how often that happens in interent arguments. And if any of you were heading a software game company and M$ exec dropped by to make you an offer, you would sign the papers and then head to the bathroom to clean out your drawers. You wouldn't turn your nose up at it and say, "I want to keep making software for a platform with a 10% market share because thats what my fans would want me to do. Screw the fans I'm going to go with the guy with the check that has my name and a lot of zeros on it.

  • 10.01.2007 5:19 PM PDT
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Posted by: Iggwilv
Relax he admitted he was wrong, which nearly made me fall out of my chair cuz we all know how often that happens in interent arguments. And if any of you were heading a software game company and M$ exec dropped by to make you an offer, you would sign the papers and then head to the bathroom to clean out your drawers. You wouldn't turn your nose up at it and say, "I want to keep making software for a platform with a 10% market share because thats what my fans would want me to do. Screw the fans I'm going to go with the guy with the check that has my name and a lot of zeros on it.


I wouldn't, I would go Sony for 15% more. Unless the best they could do was 10, then screw sony I'm micro$#!^.

  • 10.01.2007 5:24 PM PDT
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Being that Fox seems to have a chip on his shoulder, I shall sidestep him and allow for him to do whatever he wishes in his little cave in North Carolina. I am however interested in learning as much as I can learn of Bungie and Halo. So trekkie, when you say that there are "other cases of plagiarism" this catches my attention not because I wish to watch Bungie burning down, while I dance around the fire yelling, "Take down the corporations!!!" but rather it is because I seek the truth through the eyes of all individuals (excluding Fox, I already know his arrogant perspective.) If you do not wish to say anything, that is completely acceptable in my terms, as I do not wish to force anything upon anyone. Plagarism or not, I'm still playing H2V, and have been playing it since the game came out. :)

  • 10.01.2007 5:25 PM PDT

Slaying noobs since 2007.

I do admit, you did make quite a reply to me. But, still, just because you mention me twice, and repeat several things I typed to you doesn't mean a thing to me. And, making a smartass reply to Agy actually caused me to notice this thread. So, unless you are done with your quite simplistic views of Bungie and their 'evil illegal conspiracies of making the mongoose', their isn't a lot left here.

  • 10.01.2007 5:33 PM PDT

Hello! Star Wars FTW. Also, join the MAW group. Please?

To Recoton007:
Your enlightenment: http://gbxforums.gearboxsoftware.com/showthread.php?t=23429

So aggememnon can save his breath.

  • 10.01.2007 5:39 PM PDT
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Hired Gun clearly had a lot of work with Bungie, and so did Gearbox. But Sgt., do you honestly believe that Bungie dedicated as much of its efforts to Halo PC and Halo 2 Vista, as it did with their console originals? What I mean is that they are ports. The real people behind Halo 2 Vista were those ten guys from Hired Gun, who may have worked hard, however the game's reviews reveal the truth.

http://www.metacritic.com/games/platforms/pc/halo2?q=halo

Bungie offers a unique touch to all of its games, however in order to leave this kind of seal of excellence, it needs to dedicate more than 10 people in a basement, towards a game. I am not saying that Bungie was not at all focused on the projects of Halo PC and H2V, but rather I was giving a comparison. If Bungie is going to release a game 2-3 years after the original game was released, they should show some real effort. Apparently, 10 guys in a MGS basement is cutting it. And the critics back me up on this one.

(BTW: I'm not always one to trust information from companies about themselves. [ex: if you want reviews on Nintendo Games, you don't look in Nintendo Power, similarly if you want info on Gearbox you don't go to gearbox.com] The best critics are external and in being so, act as the bestsource of theoretically imbiased information. But for the sake of argument, i'll give leeway.)

  • 10.01.2007 6:14 PM PDT
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Posted by: TUI_Obi_Wan
Posted by: cHr0n0sPh3r3
Meh, s'ok i do think M$ are a$$wipes for knocking of HaloGen though... and hey is M$ making HaloWars for PC? NO! I dont think M$ shoulda been able to pull legal rights on them, and they werent profiting in anyway, why the hell could M$ pull legality on them?


I really think you should go read the copyright laws in your region. Bungie and Microsoft had legal justification in shutting down Halogen. It was their story/universe/characters/etc, that were being used to make Halogen. It's called intellectual property. While most companies wouldn't really give a hoot if someone was making a game mod from their work if it's non-profit, but they still have a legal right to shut it down if they so desire. And since Ensemble Studios was developing Halo Wars they saw Halogen as a threat to the potential earning ability of the game. Therefore they requested it to be stopped. While it might not have been a popular decision, as is made obvious by the replies to the thread. Microsoft and Bungie were legally justified in there actions.


Of course they had a right. But they stood to lose NO money from it. (I'm never, ever, going to play an RTS on a console) Somehow, they can justify destroying years of work from multiple people, so they can release a crappy RTS on a system that can't play the genre anyway?!?
Sorry, Obi, but just because it was justified didn't make it right. M$oft shut down the only chance we had at a Halo RTS (that, frankly, was going to be amazing) just for the hell of w.horing the Halo franchise a little bit more.

Posted by: Iggwilv
You wouldn't turn your nose up at it and say, "I want to keep making software for a platform with a 10% market share because thats what my fans would want me to do. Screw the fans I'm going to go with the guy with the check that has my name and a lot of zeros on it.


You're right. Even if Bungie was full of saints, they were in debt to boot. I personally would never work for M$oft but that's because I'm an arrogant elitist : D

[Edited on 10.01.2007 6:33 PM PDT]

  • 10.01.2007 6:28 PM PDT

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