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This topic has moved here: Subject: Power corrupts; absolute power corrupts absolutely.
  • Subject: Power corrupts; absolute power corrupts absolutely.
Subject: Power corrupts; absolute power corrupts absolutely.

Posted by: WolfmanMaverick
You people have just sent my sides into orbit. A bunch of MLG try hards sucking the dick of some supposed pro half the thread hasn't even heard of. Classic.

Ok before my wife sees me on here and kicks my butt for not doing chores I will make this quick. I am talking about a MM ban. Not an XBL ban. As far as I know we do not pay for that service and Bungie can remove you from it at will. Like I said before if Achronos wants to come in here and clarify that he can. I am just going off my interpretation of the system. Now time for me to get back to my work before I get in trouble.

[Edited on 10.24.2007 11:28 AM PDT]

  • 10.24.2007 11:27 AM PDT

Posted by: X Rampancy X
JESUS CHRIST I'M COVERED IN BEES
Theme song tiem.
Pezz = win.
Lazer kitty says: PEW PEW PEW!

Posted by: Achilles1108
Ok before my wife sees me on here and kicks my butt for not doing chores I will make this quick. I am talking about a MM ban. Not an XBL ban. As far as I know we do not pay for that service and Bungie can remove you from it at will. Like I said before if Achronos wants to come in here and clarify that he can. I am just going off my interpretation of the system. Now time for me to get back to my work before I get in trouble.


The idea being that bungie has the right to deny anyone access of their game servers. While those who are banned could still play custom games over XBL, they would be effectively unallowed to participate in matchmaking.

In theory, this is all a good idea. But in practice, well... the only way to find out how it will work is to test it, and I'm not even sure if it will get that far.

So far, the one really good idea that's been proposed in this thread is to only allow users with linked gamertags, preferably one's with gold accounts, to participate in the Optimatch forum, because... lets face it. If you don't have XBL, you shouldn't be posting about it.

  • 10.24.2007 12:02 PM PDT

.||./

My gamertag is SHADOWRIDERJP.

I am all in favor of having to have a linked gamertag to access the files forums or Optimatch. I am going to have to side with Saint though on the MM ban idea. In MM you can mute people who are being asses with a touch of your finger. In the forum though users can not do that which is why we need moderators. I really don't care if people are jackasses in MM or XBL, I can mute them. It kinda sounds like punishment for the sake of punishment. I can see people not posting here as much like Saint said. I think most people <3 Halo 3 more than they <3 the forums and won't post here in fear of losing MM if mod goes hang wire or them make a silly mistake and end up not playing Halo 3 MM because of it.

[Edited on 10.24.2007 12:13 PM PDT]

  • 10.24.2007 12:12 PM PDT

MY LOVE FOR YOU IS LIKE A TRUCK...
Posted by: Langley
--on another note, I think MLG Chewhatever is an idiot.

Posted by: Achronos
There is a reason I am user ID 1 and my account creation date is before this site came online.

Posted by: End
Posted by: Captain K Mart
Posted by: End
Well if I know that I got banned from Xbox Live for "double posting" by evilcam I WILL sue.

Good luck with that. If you've ever read the Terms of Use you'll realize that you can be banned from Xbox Live at any time, with or without reason.

evilcam and the rest of the moderators do NOT work for Microsoft and is not even a Bungie employee. I CAN sue.


Of course you can sue little kiddie...you'll just lose...immediately. Welcome to summary judgment.

~B.B.

  • 10.24.2007 12:43 PM PDT
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Posted by: Achilles1108
Ok before my wife sees me on here and kicks my butt for not doing chores I will make this quick. I am talking about a MM ban. Not an XBL ban. As far as I know we do not pay for that service and Bungie can remove you from it at will. Like I said before if Achronos wants to come in here and clarify that he can. I am just going off my interpretation of the system. Now time for me to get back to my work before I get in trouble.
As far as the matchmaking ban which I understood, I still do not agree. However, I do no see the point of making you link gamertags to use the forums.

Anyone could just make a silver tag and start posting. If you mean linking it within your Halo 3 service record, that maybe complicated. Either way, I just do not see the point.

  • 10.24.2007 12:57 PM PDT

Strange evolution how people have come to believe
That we are it's greatest achievement
We're barely, we're just a collection of cells
Overrating themselves

Posted by: odmichael
Posted by: Achilles1108
Ok before my wife sees me on here and kicks my butt for not doing chores I will make this quick. I am talking about a MM ban. Not an XBL ban. As far as I know we do not pay for that service and Bungie can remove you from it at will. Like I said before if Achronos wants to come in here and clarify that he can. I am just going off my interpretation of the system. Now time for me to get back to my work before I get in trouble.
As far as the matchmaking ban which I understood, I still do not agree. However, I do no see the point of making you link gamertags to use the forums.

Anyone could just make a silver tag and start posting. If you mean linking it within your Halo 3 service record, that maybe complicated. Either way, I just do not see the point.

I think it is meant as a means to discourage those who lack certain social graces from ruining others fun. If someone is acting like an ass and is banned for it (which would mean they are also taking 3, 7 or more days off from MM), they would be much less likely to repeat that behaviour in the future.

Ive read too many threads today to remember if it was mentioned, but I would think that every person would have viewing rights to The Optimatch forum, but would not be allowed to post, which I dont have a problem with.

  • 10.24.2007 1:07 PM PDT
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Posted by: Achilles1108
Mods seem like Gods.


I can see it now... the Goderators.

  • 10.24.2007 1:22 PM PDT

MY LOVE FOR YOU IS LIKE A TRUCK...
Posted by: Langley
--on another note, I think MLG Chewhatever is an idiot.

Posted by: Achronos
There is a reason I am user ID 1 and my account creation date is before this site came online.

Ahhh, here's my reply Detective, I'm sure you knew it was coming.

Let's just get one thing out of the way first. Bungie has every right and ability to limit you from playing MM. It is quite obvious that they do because if Bungie "ban-hammered" you in Halo 2, you lost your ability to play the Matchmaking system in Halo 2, but you could still play customs and still use that account on the rest of XBL. Bungie doesn't owe you anything in regards to their Matchmaking service. To further explain this point, and to demonstrate that Bungie does indeed control the Horizontal AND the Vertical in regards to Matchmaking; look at the concept of changing playlists via the Optimatch system. From what I remember, that cheeky bastid Ninja On Fire, quite often changed what playlists/gametypes were available to us in Halo 2's Matchmaking. From what I remember, not once did he ask for my expressed permission to change anything. Why? Because he's a cheeky bastid and doesn't have to ask for my permission. They control the ability to dictate what is allowed and what isn't via their service, namely MatchMaking. That means that essentially they could change Matchmaking to only offer games that were FFA Rocket games on Sandtrap with 4 people, first to 1 kill wins. That's the only game you can play in Matchmaking. And they have the right and ability to do that. What they didn't have the right to do was to remove Actionsack from Halo 2 because that is legally, ethically, and morally wrong. But that is for another thread...

I think that Achilles left out the fact that obviously this would be solely a Matchmaking ban. One that probably wouldn't be for such a long period of time. Maybe 48 hours. Nothing too serious. Remember they can still play campaign, co-op campaign, customs, forge something, all while they are banned from Matchmaking. Damn Bungie for giving them plenty of other options to do something if they can't do Matchmaking. I don't think that Achilles would argue that an extensive Matchmaking ban would be wise. Just a little poke with a stick to see what kind of reaction you'd get (/Ed Murrow). A 48 hour ban would be enough of a persuasion that those who it effected would take notice but not to the point where they would become consistently outraged. If they were banned for 2-3 days, I hardly think they'd be on a soapbox screaming about the injustice a week later. I'm sure that as soon as their ban ended it would be out of sight out of mind. I think that the proposed longevity of the banned sought by Achilles would greatly get rid of some of the apprehension of those nay-sayers.

Another point that Achilles forgot or left out is what exactly would constitute receiving a Matchmaking ban. I would imagine it wouldn't be for minor offenses such as bumping or an all-caps thread title. However, consistent minor infractions would constitute a Matchmaking ban. Say 3 instances of the same minor offense in a 6 month period would constitute a Matchmaking ban. Outside of that, it just goes on their ban record. Now, for major things such as consistent spamming or flaming or breaking of such rules would constitute a Matchmaking ban along with their B.net ban. It's easy to make the case for that because all those activities would constitute a XBL ban if you were to do them via their service. Yep, XBL even has rules against spam. All that would need to be added is that Bungie reserves the right to limit your ability to play the Matchmaking service if your conduct on the website is outside of the Code of Conduct. Since arguably if you were doing those exact same behaviors in Halo 3, Bungie would probably want to ban you because it violates the Code of Conduct you agreed to when you joined XBL. Which brings up a good point, at least in my mind. If you are being an ass-clown on B.net because you feel you're just an anonymous user, chances are that you've probably been an ass-clown in Halo 3 because you feel that you are just an anonymous user. Granted they aren't inherently correlated, but you get the picture. Showing that Bungie doesn't approve of such behavior regardless if it is on XBL or B.net and people might start understanding that their actions do have consequences.

Now, on to the point that B.net moderators are not Bungie employees. Well, yes that is obviously true outside of Stoshy, TDW, Achronos, Lukems, Frankie, et cetera. You know, the "gold-texters" for the most part. However, the moderating staff all represent Achronos by proxy. Which is why Achronos takes great pride and extreme measures before he mods someone. From my interactions with him, he (Achronos) feels that the moderators of the site reflect him because he chose them to represent him. Seems quite obvious. So as I would imagine none of the moderators would ever claim to be Bungie employees, they understand that their actions are approved and condoned by a Bungie employee. Which is why that unless Achronos personally overturns your B.net ban (which I have never heard happen; but I have heard that he's extended a couple) then you are essentially banned by Achronos. Now how this relates to Achilles idea is that the moderators are able to hand out B.net bans because of the proxy authority of their modships. If the rule were made that their bannings carried with it the ability to be banned from Matchmaking, they have that authority also. Even though they are not Bungie employees, they are still acting on behalf of one, namely Achronos. And honestly, I wouldn't doubt that Achronos would want to extend the negative consequences that are associated with not playing nice on his website because honestly if he were the only moderator, there would be far less of us that were not perma-banned.

So far, I have no qualms with the idea presented by Achilles, albeit with some clarification. But here's the problems that I do see this system creating. There is an old saying, "In Soviet Russia, laws makes you"; meaning that if this rule were to become available it could have a negative effect on the general B.net population. Not just the bad members, but the good ones alike. Now, if you know anything about me there are 3 types of threads that you will almost always find me posting in. I can't help it, I am drawn to their suckiness. Those 3 threads are: quitting threads, M6D threads, and glitches threads. Since those 3 threads deal with some of the more controversial topics discussed on B.net, they eventually involve some flaming and harsh words. I've more than occasionally participated in those aspects of them. Does that necessarily make me a bad member of the community? No, at least not in my opinion, or in the moderators apparently since I have never been banned. However, if Achilles' suggestion were to be put in place, people would shy away from those discussions for fear of earning themselves a Matchmaking ban as well as a B.net one. I've often times thought that I should avoid those topics because of various reasons, but then again, I enjoy having a good argument once in awhile. Now, if I had to risk a 2-3 day MM ban for going into some of those topics, I might be a little less likely to venture in there. Is that a good or bad thing? It's hard to tell. But it is because of that gray area that this idea could be problematic. This idea could very well put to bed any controversial topics from being raised. Although I have seen many threads in the Septi whose whole purpose it was to criticize the mods or Online Team and very rarely have I seen people be blacklisted for the ideas put forth in those threads. I did however see Achronos come down like the word of God on Logical Thinking posting on an Alt. account. Which I've always thought was funny that Logical was posting on an Alt account, when Logical was an Alt account. Sorry, forgive the digression.

Anyways, to wrap things up, I think that Achilles has a decent idea, and I am all for something that would limit and effectively punish people that abuse others on B.net. Especially if that punishment hits them somewhere a little more close to home, and that's their ability to play Halo 3 in Matchmaking. But then again, is that really such a harsh punishment? 3 days from not being able to do Matchmaking when the game offers you soooo many other options. Let alone that it is not even an XBL ban, so you could theoretically play other games on Live still. I understand that it seems somewhat heavy handed, and even the moderators are wary of it, but I really think that when you consider that it's only a 3 day ban from one aspect of a video game, the punishment does not seem that strict. At least to me it doesn't. Of course I work in a profession where we send people to prison for the majority of their lifetimes, maybe I'm a little desensitized.

If you're read this far, you get an e-cookie.

~B.B.

[Edited on 10.24.2007 1:56 PM PDT]

  • 10.24.2007 1:51 PM PDT
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Talk to the Soul | ~B.B. | Know Your Duardo |  | Hero | ISFJ | 77135 | 94371

"It's not who I am underneath, but what I do that defines me."

Posted by: Achilles1108
Ok before my wife sees me on here and kicks my butt for not doing chores I will make this quick. I am talking about a MM ban. Not an XBL ban. As far as I know we do not pay for that service and Bungie can remove you from it at will. Like I said before if Achronos wants to come in here and clarify that he can. I am just going off my interpretation of the system. Now time for me to get back to my work before I get in trouble.


But would Bungie actually be willing to ban people from their MM system? Me think not. Reason: Every single player is logged. Each player players games. If the moderators start banning a mass amount of people on the forum, and, in turn, from MM, I think it would actually hurt Bungie rather than helping. Remember when Bungie reduced the MM playlists in Halo 2 because they didn't want everyone spread out? I think this would be the same situation. I'm sure there are a lot of banning from the forums. If the same thing happened in Halo 3, then the population would decrease and be more spread out.

I like your idea Achilles, I just don't know if it would be in Bungie's best interest.


[Edited on 10.24.2007 2:09 PM PDT]

  • 10.24.2007 1:51 PM PDT

Don't send me group invites.

The only problem I have with this is that if I get blacklisted for posting in the Flood I get blacklisted from MM. Which I don't like.

Unless I read it wrong. Other than that, I think it would clean the Halo 3 forum up very nicely.

  • 10.24.2007 1:53 PM PDT

Old school Bungie, born and raised,
In the Septagon is where I spend most of my days.
Relaxin', maxin', posting all cool,
Talking about Halo, life and some school.
Got in one little argument, and the mods got scared,
they said "You're gonna get banned and your member title'll be bare!"

During my drive home from school today, I thought of the condition we're in. My government final fresh in mind, I couldn't help but realise how this entire issue couldn't but be helped with federalism.

Federalism, the division between national and state governments, is for more than just politics. Many have said in the past that we don't have enough moderators for the 1,000,000+ members. Frankly, this isn't precisely true. Spam isn't overflowing enough to desperately require more moderators; the moderators we have now do, although some instances more apatheticly than others, get the job done.

The problem is, we have no way to educate new members (as well as recent and current members, too) as to how things should be run. We certainly can't have the mods responsible for introducing them to the community, nor is a ToU or AUP going to do the job. The latter two are more often than not ignored, as with any kind of situation (when was the last you actually read the Terms of Use document of a program you downloaded before clicking the "OK" button? Seriously.) and they aren't adequate substitutes for real time experiences that these new members, or any one for that matter, learn best with.

I believe that no one is mean or vicious by nature, that they are taught or kept in an environment of such behavior. When these new members, these "blank slates" if you will, come into our forums, they are immediately exposed to the type of behavior that we are trying to take care of here. They are near-instantaneously filled with bad examples of behavior, poor conduct, and just plain rottenness that goes on here.

These aforementioned "blank slates" begin to get written on. Unforetunately, because they have little knowledge of what we really like here, they believe that it's how everyone acts (I know I did when I first joined), and act in the same or similar way. Without any kind of intervention, this cycle will continue to roll; downhill, mind you, as they continually try to outwit, out insult, and out-"phail" each other, coming up with new and innovative ways to do so.

So how do we stop this? We need examples. We need role models. We need fellow peers who connect with them, showing them what kind of behavior Bungie.net rewards. We need a secondary governmental structure who derives their authority from the primary one to set examples in their activites: Federalism, gentelmen.

But as mentioned before, no one is going to be willing to actively connect to each member. We need a way for them to stand out, to be recognized as they do their normal activity as they do today, but with purpose. WIth the knowledge that they are making a difference, that their posts and threads help educate new members, they themselves will improve and evolve with the ones they are mentoring.

Instead of giving you my answer, I'll let you figure out your own. How do we show members on an everyday basis what we want from them? How do we get our most active members today to share in the burden of this job? How do we solve our problem in the most effective way, without disrupting the authority already established right now?

Answer those questions, and you may just have your answer.

  • 10.24.2007 1:53 PM PDT
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  • Exalted Mythic Member

Bungie listens to its fans! ^.^ | Ninja .II./ You
RCG: In ur base, steelin' ur flagz. | Watch the demo, then join the carnage!

You're talking about 'promoting' a swathe of regulars to 'Trusted Member' or 'Senior Member' - and maybe giving them something to stand out so it's obvious whose lead to follow. That would work, I guess, if the status could be turned on or off by normal moderators at will (one or two posots that aren't in line with the status and you're busted back down to Member).

However, in b4 ELITISM!!! >.<

  • 10.24.2007 2:27 PM PDT

Old school Bungie, born and raised,
In the Septagon is where I spend most of my days.
Relaxin', maxin', posting all cool,
Talking about Halo, life and some school.
Got in one little argument, and the mods got scared,
they said "You're gonna get banned and your member title'll be bare!"

Posted by: Saint
However, in b4 ELITISM!!! >.<


Anyone who knows me knows that I've been a supporter of elitism to some point or another, I won't lie about that.

I'm reluctant to say it, though, as some have openly thought that I only make my suggestions to bend Bungie.net to suit me, which is untrue.

I care about the community, and I try to do my best to help it. Unfortunately, I can only do as much as others allow me to.

  • 10.24.2007 2:40 PM PDT

Concerning the exclusion of forum members from certain forums because they do not have an Xbox Live gamertag linked to their account, I must say I am not in complete agreement. While playing Halo 3 on Xbox Live does require a gamertag, and most of the people who have a gamertag and frequent these forums have likely linked the two together, that does not mean that all Halo 3 players who visit these forums have linked gamertags. It seems to me that not allowing certain members to post in the Halo 3 and Optimatch forums would only increase the number of off-topic Halo 3 posts in the forums that they then would have access to, i.e. the Underground, the Septagon, and the Flood. I can see this idea potentially working for the Halo 3 Files forum, simply because linking one's gamertag and forum account is essentially a prerequisite of actively participating in that forum. However, I think that limiting access to the Halo 3 and Optimatch forums in any way would only cause an increase of off topic Halo 3 posts in the other forums.

  • 10.24.2007 2:41 PM PDT

Sandswept Studios Design Director

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Posted by: Achilles1108
Hah who knew Achilles would have forgot something. (quiet Zag)

Heh. I would've posted earlier, but those school proxy's are tricky fellows. I almost got to the point of SIGNING IN to Windows LIVE ID. I was so close. :(

So close.

Anyway, I like this idea, it's full of win. Of course, then I got to thinking; for small mishaps and/or inability to follow some of the rules that carry less penalty, people get banned for 3 days. Cool, but then you get banned from Live for 3 days? Ok, but is that a bit harsh for a simple mess up? I would say so.

Then consider this; a guy gets banned for SEVEN days. Now he's without Live AND B.net for 7 Days? It's almost like an already harsh punishment gets extremely harsh. I figure while they're banned from B.net they can play more Matchmaking to cool off. Minus some people get very put out about their inability to play Matchmaking for a few days, I'm really still in favor of this idea. It puts some actual weight on the account, and makes it something far more valuable. (Of course, valuable things are also more valuable to steal, right? ;)

I'd put my vote in for this, the few arguments against it notwithstanding.

  • 10.24.2007 2:59 PM PDT

Old school Bungie, born and raised,
In the Septagon is where I spend most of my days.
Relaxin', maxin', posting all cool,
Talking about Halo, life and some school.
Got in one little argument, and the mods got scared,
they said "You're gonna get banned and your member title'll be bare!"

Posted by: SS_Zag1
(Of course, valuable things are also more valuable to steal, right? ;)


Oh my God.

Could you imagine if someone or someones hacked moderators' accounts to purposefully kick people out of matchmaking?!

We know it can happen, and its happened before.

Giving people the ability to keep 100 or so people out of matchmaking for seven days would be a terrible thing.

  • 10.24.2007 3:22 PM PDT

Sandswept Studios Design Director

Visit us and check out our games at Sandswept.net!

~~Pardon Our Dust.~~

Posted by: prometheus25
Posted by: SS_Zag1
(Of course, valuable things are also more valuable to steal, right? ;)

Giving people the ability to keep 100 or so people out of matchmaking for seven days would be a terrible thing.

I would hope it doesn't take 7 days for the Web Team to respond and fix a problem like that.

  • 10.24.2007 3:42 PM PDT
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Posted by: Achilles1108
Make it to where when a member with a GT linked gets blacklisted they not only lose the privies to the forums, but also to MM itself.

I can't even begin to tell you how much I support this Idea.

To give you an idea, when I saw this thread title, I thought it was a -blam!-ing and moaning post from a member, not a well thought-out and constructive idea from a Mod.
Posted by: th3m4dblimp3r
The only flaw I can see in this is having a few good, trustworthy moderators.

Well, that is a slight problem, but I'm sure Bungie could find new Mods... :)
Posted by: End
Moderators =/= Bungie employees Moderators are just regular members who.. moderate. They CAN NOT ban me from something I PAID FOR. They would have to be working for Bungie and or Xbox Live to do such a thing. For instance, Recon Number 54 CAN NOT ban me but lukems can. Why you ask? HE WORKS FOR BUNGIE.

Allow me to attempt to explain to you where your knowledge of contract law is lacking.

You knowingly signed a contract when you got your XBL account. Unless you are under the age of majority, in which case you specifically should not have signed up in the first place (your parents would have had to). The under-age XBL folks I'll deal with in a second.

By accepting the contract, you accepted every single word in it. You are bound by it. It is a legally binding contract in every sense of the term. You did not have to agree to it, you could have gone along your merry little way. Since XBL has a ToU/ToS (and you agreed to abide by them - if you didn't read them first, that's not MS's fault it's yours, and a court would agree), they detail fairly exactly what they can and can't do, and what you can and can't do.

They state they can ban you for any reason. Or no reason.

This is absolutely standard, not in anyway strange. I call it the "They are doinging everything BUT violating the rest of the rules, and are being 100% pains in our butts, so he's gone" rule.

Now, regarding people who are underage. You could, upon being banned, claim that you didn't have the legal right to agree to the ToU/ToS. You could sue MS.

The court would look at you, and say "Ok. Not an enforceable contract because you are under age."

That means you have two choices. Either you ask that the contract be Voided, and everything be returned to the way it was, or you suck it up and abide by the contract. The latter returns you to what I posted above, the former means that MS would cut you a check for the fees you had paid them, and your account goes away.

That's what is meant by "returned to how things originally were". You get what you paid MS back, and they get rid of you.

They would eat the cort costs for their side, and you would eat the costs for your side. They would also likely laugh at you when you sputtered about how they can't do that, you want your GT back.

As for MM, you don't pay for that. You pay no fee to Bungie of MS for MM. You pay for XBL, and XBL alone. To suggest that buying the game is you "paying" for MM is foolish. MM is a gift, a bonus, a treat.

As someone else said, Bungie can shut it down at will, and they don't even have to warn us.

I hope that helps.

As for the idea that a hacks Mod account would be a horrible thing, I would like to think it wouldn't take all that long to fix. If they can't "unban" people, the system has more issues than the one we're talking about. :)

  • 10.24.2007 3:47 PM PDT
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  • Elder Mythic Member

haha, i would never post again! :P

  • 10.24.2007 3:48 PM PDT

Sandswept Studios Design Director

Visit us and check out our games at Sandswept.net!

~~Pardon Our Dust.~~

Posted by: Gendo
haha, i would never post again! :P

See? We're already seeing positive results from this system!

;)

[Edited on 10.24.2007 3:52 PM PDT]

  • 10.24.2007 3:52 PM PDT

Old school Bungie, born and raised,
In the Septagon is where I spend most of my days.
Relaxin', maxin', posting all cool,
Talking about Halo, life and some school.
Got in one little argument, and the mods got scared,
they said "You're gonna get banned and your member title'll be bare!"

Posted by: SS_Zag1
Posted by: prometheus25
Posted by: SS_Zag1
(Of course, valuable things are also more valuable to steal, right? ;)

Giving people the ability to keep 100 or so people out of matchmaking for seven days would be a terrible thing.

I would hope it doesn't take 7 days for the Web Team to respond and fix a problem like that.


Well of course they would, but that's not to say the damage wouldn't already have been done. Some individuals who were blacklisted/banned for the right reasons may be unavoidably reinstated during the fixing process.

Who knows, a worst-case scenario may involve them having to scrap the idea because they can't avoid the consequences without a complete netcode overhaul. We'd then be back to where we are now.

With less...invasive ideas, such possibilities could be avoided.

  • 10.24.2007 4:00 PM PDT

Posted by: SS_Zag1
Posted by: Gendo
haha, i would never post again! :P

See? We're already seeing positive results from this system!

;)

Ha, When I saw this, this morning, my first thought was...
Man these jerks really want to make me go play with a Wii, well... It ain't happenning. Sorry. :}

  • 10.24.2007 4:00 PM PDT