- BerserkerBarage
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- Exalted Mythic Member
MY LOVE FOR YOU IS LIKE A TRUCK...
Posted by: Langley
--on another note, I think MLG Chewhatever is an idiot.
Posted by: Achronos
There is a reason I am user ID 1 and my account creation date is before this site came online.
Ahhh, here's my reply Detective, I'm sure you knew it was coming.
Let's just get one thing out of the way first. Bungie has every right and ability to limit you from playing MM. It is quite obvious that they do because if Bungie "ban-hammered" you in Halo 2, you lost your ability to play the Matchmaking system in Halo 2, but you could still play customs and still use that account on the rest of XBL. Bungie doesn't owe you anything in regards to their Matchmaking service. To further explain this point, and to demonstrate that Bungie does indeed control the Horizontal AND the Vertical in regards to Matchmaking; look at the concept of changing playlists via the Optimatch system. From what I remember, that cheeky bastid Ninja On Fire, quite often changed what playlists/gametypes were available to us in Halo 2's Matchmaking. From what I remember, not once did he ask for my expressed permission to change anything. Why? Because he's a cheeky bastid and doesn't have to ask for my permission. They control the ability to dictate what is allowed and what isn't via their service, namely MatchMaking. That means that essentially they could change Matchmaking to only offer games that were FFA Rocket games on Sandtrap with 4 people, first to 1 kill wins. That's the only game you can play in Matchmaking. And they have the right and ability to do that. What they didn't have the right to do was to remove Actionsack from Halo 2 because that is legally, ethically, and morally wrong. But that is for another thread...
I think that Achilles left out the fact that obviously this would be solely a Matchmaking ban. One that probably wouldn't be for such a long period of time. Maybe 48 hours. Nothing too serious. Remember they can still play campaign, co-op campaign, customs, forge something, all while they are banned from Matchmaking. Damn Bungie for giving them plenty of other options to do something if they can't do Matchmaking. I don't think that Achilles would argue that an extensive Matchmaking ban would be wise. Just a little poke with a stick to see what kind of reaction you'd get (/Ed Murrow). A 48 hour ban would be enough of a persuasion that those who it effected would take notice but not to the point where they would become consistently outraged. If they were banned for 2-3 days, I hardly think they'd be on a soapbox screaming about the injustice a week later. I'm sure that as soon as their ban ended it would be out of sight out of mind. I think that the proposed longevity of the banned sought by Achilles would greatly get rid of some of the apprehension of those nay-sayers.
Another point that Achilles forgot or left out is what exactly would constitute receiving a Matchmaking ban. I would imagine it wouldn't be for minor offenses such as bumping or an all-caps thread title. However, consistent minor infractions would constitute a Matchmaking ban. Say 3 instances of the same minor offense in a 6 month period would constitute a Matchmaking ban. Outside of that, it just goes on their ban record. Now, for major things such as consistent spamming or flaming or breaking of such rules would constitute a Matchmaking ban along with their B.net ban. It's easy to make the case for that because all those activities would constitute a XBL ban if you were to do them via their service. Yep, XBL even has rules against spam. All that would need to be added is that Bungie reserves the right to limit your ability to play the Matchmaking service if your conduct on the website is outside of the Code of Conduct. Since arguably if you were doing those exact same behaviors in Halo 3, Bungie would probably want to ban you because it violates the Code of Conduct you agreed to when you joined XBL. Which brings up a good point, at least in my mind. If you are being an ass-clown on B.net because you feel you're just an anonymous user, chances are that you've probably been an ass-clown in Halo 3 because you feel that you are just an anonymous user. Granted they aren't inherently correlated, but you get the picture. Showing that Bungie doesn't approve of such behavior regardless if it is on XBL or B.net and people might start understanding that their actions do have consequences.
Now, on to the point that B.net moderators are not Bungie employees. Well, yes that is obviously true outside of Stoshy, TDW, Achronos, Lukems, Frankie, et cetera. You know, the "gold-texters" for the most part. However, the moderating staff all represent Achronos by proxy. Which is why Achronos takes great pride and extreme measures before he mods someone. From my interactions with him, he (Achronos) feels that the moderators of the site reflect him because he chose them to represent him. Seems quite obvious. So as I would imagine none of the moderators would ever claim to be Bungie employees, they understand that their actions are approved and condoned by a Bungie employee. Which is why that unless Achronos personally overturns your B.net ban (which I have never heard happen; but I have heard that he's extended a couple) then you are essentially banned by Achronos. Now how this relates to Achilles idea is that the moderators are able to hand out B.net bans because of the proxy authority of their modships. If the rule were made that their bannings carried with it the ability to be banned from Matchmaking, they have that authority also. Even though they are not Bungie employees, they are still acting on behalf of one, namely Achronos. And honestly, I wouldn't doubt that Achronos would want to extend the negative consequences that are associated with not playing nice on his website because honestly if he were the only moderator, there would be far less of us that were not perma-banned.
So far, I have no qualms with the idea presented by Achilles, albeit with some clarification. But here's the problems that I do see this system creating. There is an old saying, "In Soviet Russia, laws makes you"; meaning that if this rule were to become available it could have a negative effect on the general B.net population. Not just the bad members, but the good ones alike. Now, if you know anything about me there are 3 types of threads that you will almost always find me posting in. I can't help it, I am drawn to their suckiness. Those 3 threads are: quitting threads, M6D threads, and glitches threads. Since those 3 threads deal with some of the more controversial topics discussed on B.net, they eventually involve some flaming and harsh words. I've more than occasionally participated in those aspects of them. Does that necessarily make me a bad member of the community? No, at least not in my opinion, or in the moderators apparently since I have never been banned. However, if Achilles' suggestion were to be put in place, people would shy away from those discussions for fear of earning themselves a Matchmaking ban as well as a B.net one. I've often times thought that I should avoid those topics because of various reasons, but then again, I enjoy having a good argument once in awhile. Now, if I had to risk a 2-3 day MM ban for going into some of those topics, I might be a little less likely to venture in there. Is that a good or bad thing? It's hard to tell. But it is because of that gray area that this idea could be problematic. This idea could very well put to bed any controversial topics from being raised. Although I have seen many threads in the Septi whose whole purpose it was to criticize the mods or Online Team and very rarely have I seen people be blacklisted for the ideas put forth in those threads. I did however see Achronos come down like the word of God on Logical Thinking posting on an Alt. account. Which I've always thought was funny that Logical was posting on an Alt account, when Logical was an Alt account. Sorry, forgive the digression.
Anyways, to wrap things up, I think that Achilles has a decent idea, and I am all for something that would limit and effectively punish people that abuse others on B.net. Especially if that punishment hits them somewhere a little more close to home, and that's their ability to play Halo 3 in Matchmaking. But then again, is that really such a harsh punishment? 3 days from not being able to do Matchmaking when the game offers you soooo many other options. Let alone that it is not even an XBL ban, so you could theoretically play other games on Live still. I understand that it seems somewhat heavy handed, and even the moderators are wary of it, but I really think that when you consider that it's only a 3 day ban from one aspect of a video game, the punishment does not seem that strict. At least to me it doesn't. Of course I work in a profession where we send people to prison for the majority of their lifetimes, maybe I'm a little desensitized.
If you're read this far, you get an e-cookie.
~B.B.
[Edited on 10.24.2007 1:56 PM PDT]