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  • Subject: Power corrupts; absolute power corrupts absolutely.
Subject: Power corrupts; absolute power corrupts absolutely.

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Posted by: End
See everuone is telling me the same thing. I KNOW people that work for Xbl/Bungie can ban me. But the moderators of bungie.net have no kind of real power and do not work for Bungie the company in anyway. the forums yes, the company NO.

What I'M saying is that they will have to get some kind of power and I'll understand (Like N0F when he was with Bungie, he DID ban people for forum -blam!-)

Why exactly do you need to hide behind a new account, if you're so darn familiar with this community?

Matchmaking is not Xbox Live. You did not pay for Matchmaking. That came with Halo 3, and is a feature Bungie can choose to moderate as they see fit. If they want to ban you from their matchmaking system, they can, and they can even hand it out to a bunch of ugly, old, trustworthy, and intelligent guys sitting behind their PC monitors. >_>

Emphasize the ugly and old, though. The other two parts are completely irrelevant to wielding such powers.

  • 10.24.2007 4:09 PM PDT
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Posted by: SS_Zag1
The other two parts are completely irrelevant to wielding such powers.

Not to mention completely theoretical... :)

  • 10.24.2007 4:21 PM PDT

Tom Achronos
Bungie.net Overlord
twitter: http://twitter.com/Achronos

"I have no words that would do justice to the atrocities you commit to the English language, as well as your continued assaults on the concepts of basic literacy and logical reasoning."

Non-employees will never be allowed to alter something in the game - even here at Bungie, we have very strict controls on who has direct access to alter the Bungie Favorites, the manual part of the BanHammer, fileshare overrides, etc. We don't let Frankie have access to the banhammer, for example: Luke would have been banned long ago out of spite if the podcasts are any indication. (That was a joke, for the slow people in the audience)

However, it is likely that at some point, the Optimatch forum (at minimum) will be restricted so that only people who have linked Gold gamertags will be able to post in it. The Halo 3 forum and the Halo 3 Files forums could possibly be limited to require a Silver or Gold gamertag to participate, although we'll probably wait to see on that one based on how that forum evolves over the next couple months. Right now, we haven't done it because Optimatch is mostly behaving and we know a lot of you have your gamertag linked to a different Live ID than the one you post in the forums with. We have a few ideas on how to get around that particular problem, though, so don't be surprised if the status quo changes in the next few months. A lot of my time right now is being spent working on a few of the "social problems" we have, so hopefully we'll see things improve in that regard eventually.

Posted by: Achilles1108
That is what kept running through my head tonight as an idea formed in my head at work. I got an idea to make accounts here have some weight to them.

As of now when a member is blacklisted they are not permitted to post to the forums. This includes posting things to the Files Forums. Now this can straighten some members out and they will go onto be productive members of the community. Others though will just see it as an annoyance and continue until they are permanently blacklisted. My proposal is a very drastic one and I have considered some of the pitfalls, which I will get to in a minute.

My proposal would be to make the Halo 3, Halo 2, Optimatch, and Files Forums be only accessible to people with linked GT’s (possibly just Gold). I chose those forums because of their connection to the online play aspect. Now this will help with the controversial part of my idea. Make it to where when a member with a GT linked gets blacklisted they not only lose the privies to the forums, but also to MM itself.

Now I can probably tell that quite a few of you are saying that I have flipped my lid. Well maybe I have. I feel that this would add weight to the accounts and make quite a few people realize that being anonymous on the internet still can have consequences. A three day ban would go a long way.

The biggest drawbacks I have come across so far is that it would make the Mods seem like Gods. This would make us have a level of responsibility that even makes me uncomfortable. This coming from a guy that has dealt with explosives, and live fire over peoples heads. The end result is who would police the police? Achronos of course, but I am sure he has other things to do. Also it would possibly make people scared to post anything for fear of being blacklisted. That in turn could stifle the creative side of the community by making possible good members shy away.

More than likely there will also be some type of legal issue with my suggestion. It would not surprise me one bit. Something tells me that disclaimers would not quite cut it. If Foman reads this I am sure he could clarify anything on that end.

I would really like to hear what any of you guys and gals have to say about this wacked out idea. I know I have not put it all out the way I wanted to. I am kinda tired, but I will answer any questions that you might have for me.

  • 10.24.2007 4:49 PM PDT
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But what about us that can't link there gamertags for one reason or another? There are plenty of good users that don't have them and they shouldn't have to be forced to link it if they don't want to. It just seems certain selfish users are trying to get things for themselves.

  • 10.24.2007 4:56 PM PDT
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Talk to the Soul | ~B.B. | Know Your Duardo |  | Hero | ISFJ | 77135 | 94371

"It's not who I am underneath, but what I do that defines me."

Posted by: Achronos
*speech*

And the man has spoken...

  • 10.24.2007 5:01 PM PDT

Old school Bungie, born and raised,
In the Septagon is where I spend most of my days.
Relaxin', maxin', posting all cool,
Talking about Halo, life and some school.
Got in one little argument, and the mods got scared,
they said "You're gonna get banned and your member title'll be bare!"

Posted by: Duardo
Posted by: Achronos
*speech*

And the man has spoken...


I'm not sure if I should be relieved or annoyed.

It's certainly calming to know that controls and such are so restricted, and that a solution is in the works, but....

...it seems that "we are working on the solution" has been a theme for a very long time. Let's hope the wait is worthwhile.

  • 10.24.2007 5:09 PM PDT

Formerly known as BASs13 and One Point Three

I agree with the limits of non-linked users fro the Halo 3 forum. Non-linked users should not be able to post at all in the Optimatch or Files forums. Since Achronos said no non-Bungie employees, that ends the idea of B.net ban = MM ban. Any "mark of shame" would be counterproductive, because it would be rare so everyone would want to do it.

  • 10.24.2007 5:16 PM PDT
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Talk to the Soul | ~B.B. | Know Your Duardo |  | Hero | ISFJ | 77135 | 94371

"It's not who I am underneath, but what I do that defines me."

Posted by: prometheus25
Posted by: Duardo
Posted by: Achronos
*speech*

And the man has spoken...


I'm not sure if I should be relieved or annoyed.

It's certainly calming to know that controls and such are so restricted, and that a solution is in the works, but....

...it seems that "we are working on the solution" has been a theme for a very long time. Let's hope the wait is worthwhile.
I agree with you, it does get old sometimes, but I do believe they are trying to working on it. I'm sure it will be worthwhile.

  • 10.24.2007 5:22 PM PDT
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Non-employees will never be allowed to alter something in the game - even here at Bungie, we have very strict controls on who has direct access to alter the Bungie Favorites, the manual part of the BanHammer, fileshare overrides, etc. We don't let Frankie have access to the banhammer, for example: Luke would have been banned long ago out of spite if the podcasts are any indication. (That was a joke, for the slow people in the audience)

This is something I always suspected, and expected of Bungie. One of the main reasons the council idea was never brought to fruition I think. Anyone within Bungie can be punished accordingly if transgressions occur(not saying they ever will). But, if the control were given even in small amounts to someone outside of Bungie, little more than removing such powers could be done, and then the damage is really already done. One of the main problems with finding good and trusting mods also, I think. I feel for you Achronos.

However, it is likely that at some point, the Optimatch forum (at minimum) will be restricted so that only people who have linked Gold gamertags will be able to post in it. The Halo 3 forum and the Halo 3 Files forums could possibly be limited to require a Silver or Gold gamertag to participate, although we'll probably wait to see on that one based on how that forum evolves over the next couple months. Right now, we haven't done it because Optimatch is mostly behaving and we know a lot of you have your gamertag linked to a different Live ID than the one you post in the forums with. We have a few ideas on how to get around that particular problem, though, so don't be surprised if the status quo changes in the next few months. A lot of my time right now is being spent working on a few of the "social problems" we have, so hopefully we'll see things improve in that regard eventually.

I must say, I can see only one downfall for limiting the Optimatch forum for those with linked gold accounts only, and the Files forums for only those with linked silver or gold accounts. That downfall being that not all of us have our account linked, or even linked to this email, as you have already stated. I had this problem myself and made a new email all around to connect everything. Not everyone wishes to do this though. If we could maybe change the email associated with our bungie.net account in the near future this would eliminate this. Something I'm sure you have considered and are probably working on.

As for the halo 3 forum, I believe it would be a bad idea to limit it, as it could also be used by those who do not possess, for instance, a fast enough internet to access xbox live, but have played and wish to discuss the game. I realize that high speed cable and dsl is most common these days, but I do not think we should abandon those still without it.

In the end I think some very good ideas have come out of this thread, but we should be careful about how we move forward lest our answers turn into unforeseen consequences. As always trust is an issue, though I am sure you will choose wisely. Personally I think our current crew are doing a swell job, lets just hope they can keep it up.

  • 10.24.2007 5:25 PM PDT

Tom Achronos
Bungie.net Overlord
twitter: http://twitter.com/Achronos

"I have no words that would do justice to the atrocities you commit to the English language, as well as your continued assaults on the concepts of basic literacy and logical reasoning."

The Halo 3 forum and the file forums would be restricted (if they were) to require either silver or gold linkings. That means there is no cost barrier, it just ensures that people talking about Halo 3 here are the ones playing it. Optimatch is likely to be restricted to Gold account users - it is meant for feedback about matchmaking, and quite frankly, we don't really care about your opinion of matchmaking if you're not a Gold account holder, because you aren't using it. Far too many people troll there, and it hurts those who are actually paying for Xbox Live and are trying to constructively help us build a better set of playlists.

"Elitism" and "Exclusivity" have nothing to do with it - it has everything to do with eliminating the people who have no business in that forum other than to troll. That being said, there are a few issues that have to be tackled before we'd do such a thing, but it is in the long term "social plan" at this point.

Posted by: End
Achronos please reconsider.

Halo 3 Files forum it's quite obvious it should be GT linked only but Halo 3 Forum and Optimatch forum should be open for everyone. See my post about "Elitism" and how it will grow rampant because of this and how us without linked tags would be forced to not be able to voice our opinion and feedback of the game to the community. I see GREAT threads being created that are very helpful but they do not have linked tags.

I dcon't know, I just don't like the idea of having "exclusive" members.

  • 10.24.2007 5:34 PM PDT

"FOR YOUR OWN PROTECTION: Ensure brain is engaged before putting keyboard into gear."
Need a ninja?
Got a cheater? [email]h2cheats@microsoft.com[/email]
Forum Rules.
FAQ.
I'm certifiable.

I am definitely, strongly, vehemently opposed to a "scarlet letter" option for forum bans here; for the same reason I shut down cheater reports in the forums. There will be no witchhunts on my watch if I can at all prevent them.

I also do NOT want the ability to ban someone from MatchMaking for their forum behaviour, as the two are entirely separate activities. Admittedly, a jerk in one will tend to be a jerk in both, but there are enough exceptions I think to make separating the two worthwhile. Besides, I hate handing out bans enough already... adding more repercussions to the ninja dispatch button might make me hesitate.

Linked GamerTag requirement for posting in Optimatch I would definitely support; I remember the Halo 2 chaos all too well, and interpret this current lull as the eye of the hurricane. I would also support requiring a linked GT in the file share forums (fora?) so that, if nothing else, feedback would be limited to those who can actually see the content. (Maybe not the screenshots one, though.)

-- Steve knows that things ain't perfect around here, but hopes we won't throw out the good while trying to restrict the bad.

  • 10.24.2007 5:38 PM PDT
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Posted by: Recon Number 54
and once more, while I am typing, the Overlord makes a reply that renders mine moot.

*sigh*


I disagree, your comparison of the two conversations brings up some very good points, not only was your post about the required linking of a gamertag, but forum etiquette in itself. I believe many could learn by taking the time to analyze the differences in your two conversations, I just fear those who need to will never read it.

  • 10.24.2007 5:43 PM PDT

Sandswept Studios Design Director

Visit us and check out our games at Sandswept.net!

~~Pardon Our Dust.~~

Posted by: Recon Number 54
and once more, while I am typing, the Overlord makes a reply that renders mine moot.

*sigh*


Recon™, Stepping on Achronos' Heels Since 1991.

  • 10.24.2007 5:47 PM PDT
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"Sometimes rights have to be restricted to preserve others"

So far this seems to be molding into more than just a good idea :D
Limiting Opitmatch to only the people that can play them (Gold accounts) makes sense, since only they can play it.
Restriction access to the File Forum to Sliver & Gold accounts only also makes sense, to prevent bumping with alt. accounts.

Though like Recon pointed out, problems will arise due to the fact that people can look at your GT profile and comment about your rank and skill when really it has no place in those sort of arguments.

Maybe there could be an option to only allow your friends, or a list of members to be able to see your stats page?

  • 10.24.2007 5:49 PM PDT

Old school Bungie, born and raised,
In the Septagon is where I spend most of my days.
Relaxin', maxin', posting all cool,
Talking about Halo, life and some school.
Got in one little argument, and the mods got scared,
they said "You're gonna get banned and your member title'll be bare!"

Posted by: Recon Number 54
and once more, while I am typing, the Overlord makes a reply that renders mine moot.

*sigh*


Don't be too hard on yourself. I liked this following post, and the post after's examples of good conversation were ace.

But as far as these go, may I cite some of my previous posts. I'll use my two favortie ideas, and choose which one, if not both, would work best to obtain your ideals.
Posted by: Recon Number 54
* Encourage Bungie.Net members to link gamertags to their accounts.

Forum medals
-Have these available to those only with linked gamertags. The medals themselves are worthless, but what it may persuade people to do: pricesless.

* Show that there are rewards for making a Bungie.Net account linked.

*See above
Also, my "elitism" idea might be applicable here. Only those people with linked accounts could be eligible to represent in this society.

* Attempt to build a value into a linked and permanent Bungie.Net account and reduce the value of anonymous and disposable "alt-accounts".


Both medals and the "elitism" model would place value in an account. Members who have obtained any of the former or the prestigious latter would be too reluctant to sacrifice them and lose them, more than likely for good in most cases.

* Because of that value, perhaps behavior will improve since the account has value and is worth protecting.


I really don't need to post examples here, as it's a universal goal, hopefully obtainable by reaching the others.


I sure hope Achronos' solution is coming with force...and soon.

  • 10.24.2007 5:56 PM PDT
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Posted by: Recon Number 54
Posted by: El Roboto
Though like Recon pointed out, problems will arise due to the fact that people can look at your GT profile and comment about your rank and skill when really it has no place in those sort of arguments.

Maybe there could be an option to only allow your friends, or a list of members to be able to see your stats page?

I don't think that I would be in favor of that. When we choose to link, we put our history on display. But anyone who is afraid or ashamed of the truth, apparently has something to hide.

I suck, I know it, and my history supports that view. So?

It doesn't mean that I am stupid, or unable to share my thoughts. Anyone who thinks that a game ranking means that someone is lesser than them... well, I would be happy to show them the error of that conclusion.

And if I saw someone abusing other members based on their rank in Optimatch (or elsewhere)? Then they soon discover that being silenced by some BOG (Bad Old Guy) hurts just as much as getting spawn killed by some BK.


Guess that works too :P
I'm not much of a matchmaking person, I play more custom games than my friends do.

Anyways, can't wait to see how this is all implemented. Glad this thread has not turned into a flamefest as quickly as it happens in the Halo 3 forums, cause theres a lot of good ideas and constructive critizism here that will help make these "potentially" new features happen.

[Edited on 10.24.2007 6:06 PM PDT]

  • 10.24.2007 6:05 PM PDT
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Posted by: Recon Number 54
R54: I think that we should have Wraiths and Scorpions in ranked FFA!
xXxX-I-M-A-PRO-XxXx: I think that is a stupid idea!
R54: What? It's a great idea!
xXxX-I-M-A-PRO-XxXx: I just looked at your stats and you are an 11 in FFA, I am a 43. I am telling you that it is stupid.
R54: But you are not telling me what is wrong with the idea. I think it is brilliant.
xXxX-I-M-A-PRO-XxXx: Look kid, I could easily destroy you, that means that you don't have any right to tell anyone how the game should be done.
R54: But what is wrong with the idea?
xXxX-I-M-A-PRO-XxXx: You suck at this game, just STFU and go back to playing socials. Let the real players talk. Okay?

Honestly?

That's exactly the sort of person that shouldn't be playing with other sentient life.

I'd throw a kegger if he got banned from MM.

The other one was at least civil.

... What? Look, just because I don't employ civility doesn't mean I don't know what it is

[Edited on 10.24.2007 6:13 PM PDT]

  • 10.24.2007 6:13 PM PDT
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Talk to the Soul | ~B.B. | Know Your Duardo |  | Hero | ISFJ | 77135 | 94371

"It's not who I am underneath, but what I do that defines me."

Posted by: Recon Number
I would like to see (if this is possible) that replies are also limited to a Bungie.Net account with a linked Gold or Silver gamercard.
I don't see how this is possible, especially since 'The Classifieds Forum' still lets people reply to topics. I guess we'll see what Achronos and the web team has in store for us.

I would propose that OptiMatch be viewable by all members, but that only members with linked XBL-Gold gamertags (that are not banned from MM) be allowed to create, post or reply. Unlike the other forums, the discussions here are tightly focused. They have a single purpose. To discuss the current state and future changes to MM. Disruptions and rule violations should be minimized and civil thoughtful and valuable discussion should be the standard, not the rare exception. If Bungie is going to get anything of value from the community, the community should present itself and its views in a proper manner.
I agree with you on this. It should be viewable to all members, but only people with linked GT's would be allowed to do reply or create a new topic.

  • 10.24.2007 6:41 PM PDT

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If people play the game and want to be able to give there opinions then it should not be a problem for them to link there gamertag to there account at all.

ALSO, Achronos did say he was doing something about the fact that some people have different emails for there account and there GT, possibly being able to link it anyways?

  • 10.24.2007 7:22 PM PDT