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This topic has moved here: Subject: Interesting Lack of Change.
  • Subject: Interesting Lack of Change.
Subject: Interesting Lack of Change.
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Oh noes, serious thread time.
I lol'd at the 'moderators who do nothing' line. How do you know which mods are banning people and which aren't, aside from being inactive, like Maka?
Although I agree with the rest of your OP, I must state this: this is The Internet. Deal with it. If you can't, leave.

  • 10.28.2007 4:25 AM PDT

Devil is Double is Deuce and Joker always trumps Deuce.

Posted by: dalmedya
I lol'd at the 'moderators who do nothing' line. How do you know which mods are banning people and which aren't, aside from being inactive, like Maka?

It's fairly obvious when they don't sign in for months on end.

  • 10.28.2007 8:09 AM PDT

Twitter | Nothing

Posted by: MCs Brother
Posted by: dalmedya
I lol'd at the 'moderators who do nothing' line. How do you know which mods are banning people and which aren't, aside from being inactive, like Maka?

It's fairly obvious when they don't sign in for months on end.


Anyway, you did make some valid points and yeah I do think the community is nothing like it used to be. But what can we do, I see a lot people moaning about it but not many trying to fix it.

  • 10.28.2007 8:33 AM PDT

We’ve watched while the stars burned
Out, and creation played in reverse.
The Universe freezing in half-light.
Once I thought to escape.
To end a master, step out of the
Path of collapse. Escape would make us God.
Yet I cannot help but remember one enigma,
A hybrid, elusive destroyer.
This is the one mystery I have not solved.
The only element unaccounted for.

Posted by: Pezz
fantastic.
I think you meant fabulous.

[Edited on 10.29.2007 9:32 PM PDT]

  • 10.29.2007 9:24 PM PDT
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Destinypedia - The Wiki for Bungie's Destiny
Posted by: DEATHPIMP72
Anyone but Foman. He smells like cheese.

Posted by: Shai Hulud
Half a year, and no real change. The only, little change that there has been was just an increase in those who make this site less of a community, and more of a random collection of people who fall into what really are just high-school clicks. I'll tell you what those clicks are, not naming names, but if you really know me, you'll know who I think fall into those groups:

(etc)
Don't forget the ever-present "veterans" who have been around for a whopping three or four years (or sometimes even five!) and feel like that is a sufficient amount of time to lord it over the newcomers and lament how terrible the community is compared to the "good old days." Call me old or something, but these posts always seem to be a bit silly coming from people who've been around for only a few years, which is really not much time at all in the grand scheme of things -- even an online community.

Anyway, I, like many of the previous posters, love the uniqueness of this place, and it is truly the only place where I can socialize on a regular basis and on a somewhat immature-but-friendly level with people ten or fifteen years younger than me AND with people who are one or two hundred years older than me (Recon) without feeling like we have nothing at all in common. For a community like this one, my opinion has always been that you should take it relatively lightly. I like coming here to engage my brain in a lighthearted and half-serious way during the downtimes at work or in my personal life when I have nothing better to do. Spam and flaming only bother me to the extent that they get in the way of me trying to have more entertaining/engaging discussions. The same goes for forum drama, which is prevalent here but fortunately tends to confine itself to certain areas of the site.

If you look at things in that way, you'll see that conformity to a single type of member (whatever that type may be) is not the way to go. I'm not sure what kind of homogenous community you seem to be pushing for, but I can assure you that things would not be nearly as fun or interesting around here if we didn't have some of the characters that we do. As much as I have been guilty of getting a little worked up in the past at some of the trolls, flamers, drama queens, knee-jerk Bungie-haters, knee-jerk Bungie defenders, or the automatic devils' advocates, I wouldn't want everybody here to be the same. I agree with you that there is much childishness visible on these forums, thanks to the fact that many community members are children, but that does not give anybody the right to say that the community as a whole is childish.

I realize that your post wasn't malicious; it kind of falls into that category of the regularly scheduled once-a-month "Ain't Like It Used To Be" or "The Community Is Ailing/Dying/Dead/Annoying" threads. Many people before you have attempted to "categorize" the various types of BNet members, and almost all of their posts, like yours, disparage or negatively portray the vast majority of the "categories" into which their victims fall. It seems from outward appearances that the categorizers truly dislike or even despise anybody who they don't think falls within their idea of being a good, contributing member to this community. To me, however, these "categories" always ring a little bit false. This place has way too many unique members to allow for adequate categorization. Now don't get me wrong -- this place is very much a community. But it's not like a real-life community for many reasons. For example, people can come and go as they please, face little consequence for their actions (provided that they are within the rules), and almost always make their actions in this community last priority behind the other more important things in their life and their real-life communities (as they should).

Mature, intelligent discussion is quite easy to find once you know where to look for it and how to elicit it. It is surprising to me, therefore, that despite your long tenure in these forums, you wrote your first post in a mature, sophisticated manner and had the automatic expectation that everybody would flame you. No offense intended here, but I find it a bit ironic that your post appears to reflect careful analysis and observation (whether accurate or not) of the types of posts and members that can be found here, yet you seem to have not realized that your post was unlikely to draw any flaming. I'm glad to see that this thread has proved at least that part of your first post to be wrong. I just think that I'd like to see a bit more observation (and perhaps enforcement) of the forum rules, but I don't feel that everybody needs to conform to your idea of a helpful community member.

At any rate, to sum it all up, I think that you, and really anybody, attempting an analyze-then-lament-the-state-of-the-community post should take things here a little more lightly. I think that it's great when people have ideas about how to improve the community, how to encourage better posting, or how to raise the maturity level a bit here. But sadly, this is not one of those posts. For all of its well-written eloquence and mature analysis, all your post amounts to is a finger-pointing and complaining session with no usefulness for improving what you perceive and claim to be a sad state of affairs.

I suppose you predicted a response similar to this in your original post, but making such a prediction merely shows that you are aware of the nature of your original post. It does not make you more justified or correct in what you wrote. Once again, please don't misinterpret me as flaming you or saying that I disagree with your "categories," because I've already noted that I don't tend to categorize members in that way (I tend to see people as individuals) and thus cannot really comment as to the accuracy of your categorization. What I'm saying, in essence, is that I think that you're taking things a little too seriously and perhaps over-dramatizing the entire community. After all, it's a video game forum, not a high school soap opera. And I mean that in the friendliest possible way.... know what I mean?

Moving on to your other topic, which is really a whole different topic entirely:
I'm going to end by saying that I find it disgusting that so many of you criticize things that quite simply are not the way you want them. The games aren't such-and-such the way you want them. Bungie doesn't treat you the way you want them. One thing that you'll learn in life when or IF you grow up, is that things simply aren't the way you want them, and you have to accept that. -blam!-ing gets you no-where. Bungie responds with an "appease," and then all you do is -blam!- more. Doesn't that say something? It's like asking for cake, and then getting pissed off because someone put sprinkles on top because they were nice.I disagree with you somewhat. Some things aren't the way you want them, and you have to accept it because no matter what you do, they won't change. For example, you might want the sun to rise in the west, but you have to accept it and complaining about it won't change anything. In a similar vein, there are many aspects of Halo and Bungie that will not or cannot be changed, and you have to accept those and stop complaining as well. But a reasonable and ambitious person realizes that some things can be changed, and that person will set out actively to change them to make them more efficient, more desirable, more fun, or more profitable.

Yes, there are many spoiled and/or arrogant members here who erroneously believe that Bungie should be catering to their whims (take your pick of the various issues that are popular with these folks). And perhaps those are the only kinds of posts that you are talking about here. But in case you're not, the key is realizing what can be reasonably complained about or discussed in order to facilitate changes that are beneficial to everybody. I see nothing wrong with making a well-reasoned post about a gametype or map change in Optimatch that you think would be better, or with advocating new features for BNet that you think would make it easier or more fun to visit.

At any rate, it seemed like you were saying that we should accept everything (apparently everything "in life") without complaint. If that's not what you meant, then I'm sorry, but if it is, then I must respectfully disagree.

  • 10.29.2007 10:51 PM PDT
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I agree with most of what Foman said. I'd probably agree with all of it I wasn't afraid of going blind from reading it all.
As it is, I'm seeing spots.
No, really.

  • 10.29.2007 11:04 PM PDT
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And the Shadow fell upon the Land, and the World was riven stone from stone. The oceans fled, and the mountains were swallowed up, and the nations were scattered to the eight corners of the World. The moon was blood, and the sun was as ashes. The seas boiled, and the living envied the dead. All was shattered, and all but memory lost, and one memory above all others, of him who brought the Shadow and the Breaking of the World. And him they named Dragon.

God dammit Foman.

[Edited on 10.30.2007 1:02 AM PDT]

  • 10.29.2007 11:04 PM PDT

Foman crits for 2507.

  • 10.29.2007 11:06 PM PDT
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Yet again, I arrive at a thread too late and the opinion I have has been expressed by many others.

I love this community. Through it's ups and downs, when the trolls come out to play, when we have our little lulls where not much is going on, I love this community. The only other board I go to sees much less traffic, but is almost as entertaining. It's the 9th most visited sports forum in the US. That's neither here nor there. Bungie.net has a certain appeal to it. There are times where I'm just so angry with the community (doesn't mean I dislike it) but I still come back pretty much every day. Sometimes I poke fun at the community as a whole, but rarely do I mean any spite. I try to at least associate with members of every "clique" or facet of this community. That's how I was in high school, too (your analogy works!). Sure, there are some cliques that I haven't associated myself with yet, and maybe I never will, but I like what I see. This reply really isn't going anywhere. I'm just expressing my opinion on the community. I'm not as well versed as Foman, or as witty as a lot of the members of the community, so I'll just let you take whatever I said however you want. Surely I'm rambling now; I'm going to sleep.

  • 10.30.2007 12:44 AM PDT
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Meh. I still say it's just a website. I used to get emotionally involved in this place...but then again, I was a weird kid in high school. I can't believe how easily I fell into these cliques on this Forum. I mean, you'd think that with anonymity, there'd come some sort of uniqueness from everyone...but no, it just gives us more reason to be jerks. I look back at my old posts when I thought I was all that, and I can't believe I went 3 and a half years with only two bans.

Anyway, something we all have to discover and what may be part of what you refer to as "growing up" is that this is just a website, like any other. It can bring some temporary entertainment...or anger, but in the end, these are just words on a screen and only you can let yourself be affected by them.

Maybe this is just sleep deprivation talking, but I say give it a rest. Enough with the "this place ain't what it used to be" and the "You new people are ruining everything". Let the kids have their fun and when you're ready...move on to real life. I sincerely hope I'm not still checking this Forum in another three years.

(If none of that made sense, I blame the fact that it's 3 a.m.)

  • 10.30.2007 2:00 AM PDT

I'll be on my own side.

I know what you mean, Halifax. I remember when I used to tolerate those morons in the Flood, and went along with the "Flood Family" crap. Then again, I was like 15.

I still sign on every day, and I browse the forum, but I don't post much. I know the community has changed. It's not tight-knit or whatever you want to call it, but things change. Sure, I could blame all the morons who showed up after the Halo 2 announcement, but does pointing fingers really do anything? I still have friends from this forum that I met years ago, including Shai Hulud, whom I play Halo 3 with regularly. Isn't that what a community is about? I don't recall the Halo community being shackled to the confines of an Internet forum. 90% of my XBL friends list is people I met on these forums or other places in the Halo community, like IBO, and I even hung out with one at the Halo 3 launch. To me, that's infinitely more important than the amount of spam topics in the Flood, or how much Sketch does or doesn't post.

Quit worrying about the state of the forums, and focus more on the friends you make on said forums. Sure, our place of discussion may be more hectic or disorganized, but does that mean that we suddenly no longer have the ability to discuss things in our private groups or play with each other on XBL, or IM each other? No, it does not.

[Edited on 10.30.2007 2:17 AM PDT]

  • 10.30.2007 2:14 AM PDT
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ive only been here for maybe a day? but from what ive seen so far its a pretty good community.

  • 10.30.2007 6:53 AM PDT
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Posted by: muffin360
ive only been here for maybe a day? but from what ive seen so far its a pretty good community.

Do you know what a good community is even like? I doubt most people here do. A good community is where everyone gets along with each other and can step on each other's toes a bit and no one gets mad. If that was this community then there wouldn't be need for the moderators.

You can compare this to your community you live in. Does everybody in your neighborhood or town (if you live in the boonies) know who you are and do you have relationships with those people? I'm willing to bet that most people in here would say no, I am even one of those who could say no. Now, maybe your neighborhood is huge, but do you even know the people that are only 5 houses away maybe? If so, I'd say that a better community than the one I mentioned earlier, but until everyone enjoys everyone else's company, this community stinks.

I'm not saying this just because I'm older than most people here, but way back when there were only a couple hundred regulars at bcom, the only moderators were Bungie employees and they only handled a select few people (Master Xbox, Jason, Neo, etc.) who actually tried disrupting the forums.
For me, I have a nice little neighborhood from bnet, it's called the Jumpers, and we all get along most of the time. Some of the people in the group are new, and then there are those that I've known for years on the web. Sometimes we tell each other that we hate one another, but after knowing people for so long, you know that they aren't being "oh no internetz" serious. By the way, I hope you're a furry dirtball Flamechu, Naruto sucks, and I hope your mom grounds you from playing video games for no less than a month.

How is this supposed to happen? The 7th Column, but who cares about that right? We got the Flood now, so everything is ok, pff, as if. So much for the neighborhood idea. Wish I had more time, but that's why I don't even frequent this website as much as I used to.

Peace, and oh yea, this community sucks, lol.

  • 10.31.2007 8:30 AM PDT
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Talk to the Soul | ~B.B. | Know Your Duardo |  | Hero | ISFJ | 77135 | 94371

"It's not who I am underneath, but what I do that defines me."

Posted by: Josher 35
Peace, and oh yea, this community sucks, lol.

Your mom sucks. :P

OH, I GOT U SO BADD!!! U NVR SAW IT COMMIN! BURN 2 DA MAX!!! !!!!!one!!!!!one11111!!!!!

  • 10.31.2007 8:37 AM PDT

Posted by: Shai Hulud
What I have to say is, once again, something that needs to be said. Something felt by many, but expressed by none.


Try felt by many, and expressed by at least four people a week for the past three years.

  • 10.31.2007 8:41 AM PDT
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AWESOME!!!!!!!! I DIDNT KNOW IT WAS ALREADY "LETS CRY ABOUT VIDEO GAME COMMUNITIES" TIME.... YAY!!!

  • 10.31.2007 9:50 AM PDT

Sandswept Studios Design Director

Visit us and check out our games at Sandswept.net!

~~Pardon Our Dust.~~

Shai's back! I wish he'd stay. :D

You guys know why I like these threads? They make everyone post. Un Gato, Shai, Jeff McRae. The others.

Instead of hiding in your groups, secretly talking about how the community is trash, you come out and post on the forums. Talk about reasons why the community seems so crappy. All the good people have labeled it as such, and choose to avoid it. Good contributions you guys have been making.

Note the mild sarcasm.

Just because new people move in, does not mean all the old people have to move out and say it's been ruined. Yet, that's exactly what you all have allowed. I stay on the forums, no matter what state they're in, because it keeps the old community together a lot more. Hiding in groups or not posting at all really doesn't contribute to the community much at all. I think a few people here that rarely post, but have been around since 2004 or earlier, really need to get off their high horses and mingle a little bit. That would improve the community.

  • 10.31.2007 10:08 AM PDT
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*Reads various comments*

*Stares around with tired eyes*

It's just an internet forum.

*Shrugs*

  • 10.31.2007 10:15 AM PDT
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And the Shadow fell upon the Land, and the World was riven stone from stone. The oceans fled, and the mountains were swallowed up, and the nations were scattered to the eight corners of the World. The moon was blood, and the sun was as ashes. The seas boiled, and the living envied the dead. All was shattered, and all but memory lost, and one memory above all others, of him who brought the Shadow and the Breaking of the World. And him they named Dragon.

I agree Zag!

I considered to write a kick-ass-long-reply, but quickly discovered that I only had 2 min to do it.
So, I'll rather repeat myself instead.
I agree, Zag!

  • 10.31.2007 10:16 AM PDT

Strange evolution how people have come to believe
That we are it's greatest achievement
We're barely, we're just a collection of cells
Overrating themselves

Posted by: SS_Zag1
I stay on the forums, no matter what state they're in, because it keeps the old community together a lot more.

You told me it was due to your OCD.

As for me, until they block b.net here at work, I'll be around in some way or another.

I don't know if all the "old" guys coming back into the community is such a good thing. It would turn any thread they post in into an IM session. An off-topic IM session. I'm all for posting off-topic, but I'm not sure how the current administration would feel about it.

[Edited on 10.31.2007 10:19 AM PDT]

  • 10.31.2007 10:18 AM PDT

Sandswept Studios Design Director

Visit us and check out our games at Sandswept.net!

~~Pardon Our Dust.~~

Posted by: twinkiemaker
I don't know if all the "old" guys coming back into the community is such a good thing. It would turn any thread they post in into an IM session. An off-topic IM session. I'm all for posting off-topic, but I'm not sure how the current administration would feel about it.

Well, then there's the other side of the coin.

All the 'old' members are good chums, great buddies. All the moderators and them get along. They could break a thousand rules and never get punished, because it's "just that one guy and his hilarity".

Meh. I'm really stuck in the middle. I wasn't really around back in 2003 (and before), but I've been around longer than most. I think the Community has changed, but apparently I missed the really big changes. Bad timing, I suppose.

Whatever state it's in, it's still a community. Saying "If you can even call it that" is pretty ridiculous. It might not be the community some of you were used to, but it's still a community, and I like it. I like most the people here, I think they're great people, and I think plenty of people here hafve positively contributed to an extent. Obviously no one here has done something as amazing as Anton did once, or started up some huge fan site. I mean, seriously, Prometheus, Ash, and myself made a silly Pimps at Sea game and Blahoogana and Foman have been working on Bungiepedia. It's not huge contributions, but that's not really what having a great community is about.

It's all the small, consistent ones.

  • 10.31.2007 10:30 AM PDT
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Whatever state it's in, it's still a community. Saying "If you can even call it that" is pretty ridiculous. It might not be the community some of you were used to, but it's still a community, and I like it. I like most the people here, I think they're great people, and I think plenty of people here hafve positively contributed to an extent.
Nice point.
Even though I've been here since late 2004, I've been pretty quiet for all of this time until around June of this year.
I think the community is pretty good, since there a lot of fun people in the community and its not some sort of "group circle of close friends".
Just a few days ago I joined in with the community to have some online fun (Mod vs Mems) and made some good friends out of it :D.

  • 10.31.2007 10:44 AM PDT
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Posted by: twinkiemaker
I don't know if all the "old" guys coming back into the community is such a good thing. It would turn any thread they post in into an IM session. An off-topic IM session. I'm all for posting off-topic, but I'm not sure how the current administration would feel about it.

Haha, twas an awesome IM session in threaded view it was, lol.

Posted by: SS_Zag1
All the 'old' members are good chums, great buddies. All the moderators and them get along. They could break a thousand rules and never get punished, because it's "just that one guy and his hilarity".

Being friends with people has its "benefits". Although, look at it this way, would you get more mad at someone you didn't know who called you names and disrespected you or more mad at a friend who is joking around? I'd like to think I'm allowed to speak more freely than most of the people on bnet because I have so many good relationships with people here. It just figures that a good percentage of the people are moderators.

  • 10.31.2007 10:44 AM PDT

Sandswept Studios Design Director

Visit us and check out our games at Sandswept.net!

~~Pardon Our Dust.~~

Posted by: Josher 35
Being friends with people has its "benefits". Although, look at it this way, would you get more mad at someone you didn't know who called you names and disrespected you or more mad at a friend who is joking around? I'd like to think I'm allowed to speak more freely than most of the people on bnet because I have so many good relationships with people here. It just figures that a good percentage of the people are moderators.

Oh, I'm well aware of the inherent difference in response between friends and people you don't know. Obviously they're treated differently. I still think there's a point where a lot of the older members are so ridiculously friendly it could get out of hand. So, if the older members feel the community sucks, then they don't have to come back. It's find with me.

Now, let's look at a great example.

You. I don't know you, Josher. You don't post often, and you can hardly call yourself a community member anymore. The only reason I'm familiar with your name is because I've been in the Jumpers on and off. Just because you sit in the Bungie Jumpers all day doesn't mean you're actually a helpful member, and I think a lot of the others just like you can stop coming in and talking about how the community sucks, when you do nothing to improve it.

Just think about it. Calling yourself part of the community really should require you being a part of the community. Helping out and contributing some. If you call yourself a veteran, but haven't done anything with your many years here besides be a good member, you shouldn't be holding that over people like some golden goblet.

[Edited on 10.31.2007 11:00 AM PDT]

  • 10.31.2007 10:51 AM PDT

Old school Bungie, born and raised,
In the Septagon is where I spend most of my days.
Relaxin', maxin', posting all cool,
Talking about Halo, life and some school.
Got in one little argument, and the mods got scared,
they said "You're gonna get banned and your member title'll be bare!"

Posted by: SS_Zag1
Calling yourself part of the community really should require you being a part of the community.


But who's job is it to lay down the accepted definition of being an active member. We all know how uncomfortably unbiased the Friend's and Family program went. Anyone who was here for a couple of months and posted a couple instances was instantly an "active" member.

Now, there's nothing wrong with that, but if we go by that definition, then anyone who meets those few prerequisites is, by Bungie's standards, an active member.

  • 10.31.2007 11:02 AM PDT