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This topic has moved here: Subject: Interesting Lack of Change.
  • Subject: Interesting Lack of Change.
Subject: Interesting Lack of Change.

With B.B. gone, the passion of Bungie.net has lessened.


Posted by: atomic weggie
Posted by: just another fan
I wish the Jumpers would visit the main forums more often. That's not a complaint, but a wish.


I don't if all they're going to do is kick the current community in the nuts. "I told you so" and labeling people isn't a constructive way of evaluating anything. Yes Shai is entitled to his opinion. But like I said before, stating your opinion is so much more well received when it's followed by constructive ways of fixing what you think is wrong.


And this thread can't be the first step in that? Don't jump to conclusions so soon.

  • 11.01.2007 11:51 AM PDT

Go Chiefs

Pardon me while I wax philosophical, but maybe focusing on what was isn't the greatest idea. Saying the community sucks now lacks perspective.

The current situation is what it is. You'll have to adapt or be miserable. I hardly ever post in the Flood anymore because it has lost that certain element of fun it had for the last couple years. So I have mostly withdrawn to groups but I check the Flood on occasion to see if I'll get surprised. Sometimes I am.

But in my place are the thousands of people that came on board for H3. It's just as much their community as mine (or yours) now. The only constant I've witnessed during my time here is there are always people moaning about better days. You'll just have to get over it.

  • 11.01.2007 12:00 PM PDT

Posted by: Shai Hulud
What better way to do that than to make the community aware of what we think? Being in no positions of real power, me and my "posse" (hah!) can't just go and change things without making what we think known.

So, because I, and the people with whom my forum personality "grew up" with on this site have some distaste for the state of the community now means that we can't be here and try to make things better? What kind of "community" throws away those who stop fitting in? Read some history, and you'll find that those types of communities have not been very moral in their decisions.


Who said you aren't welcome? Who's throwing you away for not fitting in? Fitting in is about contributing and getting to know these newer members. It's certainly not about pigeon holing an entire community, especially when you haven't even been around to get to know the very people you've labeled.

Now that you've made it perfectly clear about your distastes, how do you suggest we fix things?

  • 11.01.2007 12:04 PM PDT

With B.B. gone, the passion of Bungie.net has lessened.

I respectfully disagree, Sir Cumference. I don't see why it's necessary for me to conform to a community that, according to elmicker, B.B.,and atomic weggie, would do better without me. I think their statements are in poor taste and that they are incapable of actually speaking for the community. I think this place can be bettered. I haven't quite figured out how to do that, but that doesn't make me a hypocrite or an incessant whiner. At least I'm willing to try to do something. However, if the community is actually so opposed to my presence as elmicker and his ilk say it is, then perhaps I'll leave. We'll see what the outcome of this is...

And if the community truly wishes to reject those who wish to help out, then I don't think anyone can hold a positive opinion of this place without being an arrogant, self-centered prick.

  • 11.01.2007 12:08 PM PDT
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Hmm, A very interesting topic though I see a very few problems that might turn this topic into a flamefest between one another (Unless it already has).
For me, this place is like a candied-apple that has gone rotten. It's got it's caramelly goodness, but the bulk of it seems to want me to spit it back out once I take a bite. You, elmicker, are part of the rotten apple.
I question your grasp on your own emotions. Try counseling. It might help.
Please don't personally attack other members. It way too easy for this to turn into a back and forth insulting between members, which would degrade this topic.
Don't you see anything wrong with that? Automatically assuming that we're stuck-up because of our opinions of the forums are negative? Go through these questions in your head: How does that make us stuck up? Is it right to call us that merely because our opinions are different from your own?
I see nothing wrong with expressing your opinon. Its actually pretty good hearing what others think of the community they are in, but others mainly see you as "stuck-up" because your pressing your side of the story as if there is "I'm right, your wrong" sort of statements.
Second, I despise your attempt to insult Josher because he decided to use formal grammer. Say funnier all you want, B.B., we all know what you mean. But calling someone stuck up for saying something differently than you, and claiming that it's what the community uses, is quite hypocritical. It's like telling a teacher to piss off when she tells you that "ain't" ain't a word!
Many of you claim to speak for the community, but honestly, in doing so, you're giving the community an even worse name than what I labeled it with. I'm going to choose to think that you are not competent spokesmen for this community, and are simply choosing to speak out of your asses through anger without thinking beforehand.

And if the community truly wishes to reject those who wish to help out, then I don't think anyone can hold a positive opinion of this place without being an arrogant, self-centered prick.

I'm disappointed that members on both sides of this argument are resorting to insulting others who disagree instead of proving their points and opinions clearely and without insults.

As long as members don't clean up their act in this topic, I expect it won't last long until this turns into a flamefest and gets locked.

Very nice topic, and I hope this can still be an intellectual converstion.



[Edited on 11.01.2007 12:29 PM PDT]

  • 11.01.2007 12:18 PM PDT
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And the Shadow fell upon the Land, and the World was riven stone from stone. The oceans fled, and the mountains were swallowed up, and the nations were scattered to the eight corners of the World. The moon was blood, and the sun was as ashes. The seas boiled, and the living envied the dead. All was shattered, and all but memory lost, and one memory above all others, of him who brought the Shadow and the Breaking of the World. And him they named Dragon.

This thread makes me cry.


EDIT: Sorry, my opinion don't matter, my account was made in early 2005.

[Edited on 11.01.2007 12:41 PM PDT]

  • 11.01.2007 12:31 PM PDT

Posted by: Shai Hulud
I respectfully disagree, Sir Cumference. I don't see why it's necessary for me to conform to a community that, according to elmicker, B.B.,and atomic weggie, would do better without me. I think their statements are in poor taste and that they are incapable of actually speaking for the community. I think this place can be bettered. I haven't quite figured out how to do that, but that doesn't make me a hypocrite or an incessant whiner. At least I'm willing to try to do something. However, if the community is actually so opposed to my presence as elmicker and his ilk say it is, then perhaps I'll leave. We'll see what the outcome of this is...


This is my point. You haven't "tried" to do anything, other than deride an entire community. I also never stated that we would be better off without you, so please stop lumping me in with other people's opinions. Lastly, I do not speak for anyone but myself.


And if the community truly wishes to reject those who wish to help out, then I don't think anyone can hold a positive opinion of this place without being an arrogant, self-centered prick.


You haven't stated a positive opinion, other than your admiration for your private group.

See I have been for the past two years, and I think Bungie does a helluva job at still making this one of the best gaming communities in the world. They listen to their fans, interact with their fans on a daily basis and make this a really cool place to discuss the games we love and interact with our friends. Things like the Halloween playlist, giving out Recon armor to fans who have given us a laugh and holding fun interactive competitions like the mems vs. mods and humpday challenges.

This is not a utopia, there's no such thing as a perfect community. Of course B.net was a more close knit and stimulating community 3-4 years ago, it had 80% less people and no Halo 2 to bring in the leeches who only want to take and not give. But even with all it's warts, B.net still kicks more ass than any game community I've ever seen. Period.

[Edited on 11.01.2007 1:32 PM PDT]

  • 11.01.2007 12:58 PM PDT
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Destinypedia - The Wiki for Bungie's Destiny
Posted by: DEATHPIMP72
Anyone but Foman. He smells like cheese.

Posted by: Shai Hulud
I respectfully disagree, Sir Cumference. I don't see why it's necessary for me to conform to a community that, according to elmicker, B.B.,and atomic weggie, would do better without me. I think their statements are in poor taste and that they are incapable of actually speaking for the community. I think this place can be bettered. I haven't quite figured out how to do that, but that doesn't make me a hypocrite or an incessant whiner. At least I'm willing to try to do something. However, if the community is actually so opposed to my presence as elmicker and his ilk say it is, then perhaps I'll leave. We'll see what the outcome of this is...

And if the community truly wishes to reject those who wish to help out, then I don't think anyone can hold a positive opinion of this place without being an arrogant, self-centered prick.
Personally, I've been impressed by you in the past. Your apology thread from last January was humble and touching, and I've never seen anything you posted here outrage my conscience, despite the fact that I don't always see things the way you do. That is why, although I disagreed with you, it was a respectful disagreement and I went to great lengths to explain why I simply saw things differently.

I think that a lot of the hostility in this thread from all of the various posters is somewhat unwarranted, but also understandable. It mostly boils down to seeing the same thing in different ways. I'm not going to make this a "can't we all just get along" post (mostly because they don't work), nor am I going to assign any fault. But I will say that it's disappointing to see how things have deteriorated past the second page of this thread.

Perhaps it's because of my line of work, but I can totally see the validity of all of the various viewpoints in this thread. Flaming and insults aside, the basics of the current conflict are that one side thinks that due to his long absence, Shai has no ability or perspective that would allow him to truly opine on the state of the Community. They also see Shai's original post as an insult to the Community due to its provocative tone near the end of the post and its lack of solutions to the alleged "problem" with the Community. The other side, obviously, thinks that mere non-participation should not be a bar to commenting on the current state of affairs, and also tends to agree with the original post. If it were possible to discuss this issue civilly, this topic would be worthy of its own thread and would probably be an extremely engaging and interesting debate.

Although I have my own perspective on this particular issue and I'm willing to argue it, I've hesitated to jump back into this discussion at this point after my one post on page 2. This is because, in my opinion, the discussion's rather passionate intensity and the hostility I see are unproductive and perhaps a bit overdramatic. Again, I'm not pointing fingers at either side, but I just don't want to get involved in all of the hyperbole and emotion that have eclipsed the original issue.

I understand that the conversation has migrated somewhat, Shai, but if you get a chance, I'd like to see your response to my post on the second page of this thread, which is far more on point for this thread's original purpose. Not that I'm trying to "guide" things back on topic (because I kind of like the way these Septagon threads tend to "evolve"), but I was rather disappointed at the nasty turn that this thread took. At this rate, it won't be long until the thread is locked for being too far gone to allow for any further meaningful discussion. And that would be a shame, because I am enjoying the discussion and the more civil arguments being raised by everybody who has posted here.

  • 11.01.2007 1:07 PM PDT

I'll be on my own side.

I'm not about to say I've done great , wonderful things for the community. I can't say I have, but then again, can any of you? I've been here a while, I've never been banned, always been helpful whenever possible, and that's about it. This doesn't make me any "higher" on the food chain so to speak, but it doesn't make me any "lower" either. So just because I've chosen to frequent the Jumpers more than Bungie.net (I haven't left, I just post a lot less frequently), does that mean I'm no longer part of this community?

I'm willing to bet that almost all the people here who have their panties in a bunch about Josher and Shai haven't done anything for this community that they haven't.

Zag, prometheus, BB, can you tell me what makes you such upstanding memebers of this community?

[Edited on 11.01.2007 1:33 PM PDT]

  • 11.01.2007 1:30 PM PDT

Halo3Planet, the place for all things Halo 3..

Need help finding skulls, make sure to go here.

I really don't think anything could come from this thread. We all can see the state of affairs on the site. There isn't much of a need to tell us. But, others are saying that if you make a critique, then you should have some answers, too. But, that also seems unable to happen for this specific problem. There is no way (that I can see) to stop people from forming groups, or cliques. There is no way to get people to be more respectful, unless they choose to do so. All of those problems are hard enough out in the real world, but are exponentially more difficult here on the internet. Everyone is as anonymous as they choose to be, so there is no reason for them to try to help out the community, or just be a better member in general.

We can't exactly shame people into being more respectful because, once again, they are totally anonymous. They can choose what they want to say, knowing full well that no one can do anything about it. No one here knows who they really are, so, when and if they are banned, they could either make a new account, or just leave. They obviously didn't have much to contribute to the community anyway.

So, it seems to me like this thread has no possible solution that would appease both sides. I highly doubt we could even come to a compromise. I personally think Shai did it just to stir up trouble on this topic, but I could be totally wrong, and apologize if I am wrong. It's just too hard to tell what people really think over the internet, especially in forums. Maybe I'm just being cynical, but I doubt that anything good could come from this thread.

  • 11.01.2007 1:31 PM PDT

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Posted by: Deus_Ex_Machina
Cortana 5 is a carbon-based lifeform that frequently visits these forums, currently residing in the United States. Practically every male on the site responds to her posts.

The Joyeuse IP Formula

When I fist joined, I did see a lot of the same you said. Thing is, the people who did matter in the b.net community left thanks to the huge absorbtion of idiots from Halo 3. I'm not sure what I would be put as when I first joined. Perhaps, at first I was just an "extra." But it's hard to say. I can definitely see where the popular ones come into your post. I might have been one of them at one point. (Anyone remember summer of '06?)
Now, I just try to hang out and do what I can. Some people just don't get it. They want to seem bigger than everyone else here. Which is a hard feat. And sometimes (ok, a lotta times) just isn't worth it.
Missed you Shai!

[Edited on 11.01.2007 1:44 PM PDT]

  • 11.01.2007 1:42 PM PDT

Posted by: Nedus
. So just because I've chosen to frequent the Jumpers more than Bungie.net (I haven't left, I just post a lot less frequently), does that mean I'm no longer part of this community?


Depends on what your definition of "no longer part of the community" is. I'd say only posting in a private group that 99.9% of B.net members can't see doesn't do a whole lot for the community at large. It's not a bad thing, lots of people who come here only post in their private groups and then leave. But if we're to digest what Shai (and many others before him) said, then we all have to move forward and come up with ideas on how to better the community.

Pointing out the problems, saying I told you so, and then leaving doesn't really do a whole lot, know what I mean?


I'm willing to bet that almost all the people here who have their panties in a bunch about Josher and Shai haven't done anything for this community that they haven't.

Zag, prometheus, BB, can you tell me what makes you such upstanding memebers of this community?


Let's stop putting each other on trial.

  • 11.01.2007 1:50 PM PDT
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God, i hate B.net sometimes. That's the third time in this thread it's chewed up a multi-thousand character post and not posted it :<. That's why my posts have mostly been short - they started out as long winded pap and ended up getting erased.


Posted by: Shai Hulud
I respectfully disagree, Sir Cumference. I don't see why it's necessary for me to conform to a community that, according to elmicker, B.B.,and atomic weggie, would do better without me.


Wrong end of the stick. The community is better for your presence - that is undoubted. The community is better off without a post about how much it sucks with no propositions, or even ballpark ideas on how to go about fixing it. The community is better off without people who return expecting to be instantly respected for past glories.

Lord knows what you'll actually try. Personally i'd lay money on a resurrection of the seventh column council. It's about due any time now.

  • 11.01.2007 2:00 PM PDT

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Posted by: Deus_Ex_Machina
Cortana 5 is a carbon-based lifeform that frequently visits these forums, currently residing in the United States. Practically every male on the site responds to her posts.

The Joyeuse IP Formula

Posted by: SexyBanannaGirl
Posted by: atomic weggie
Let's stop putting each other on trial.

Its funny that you say this, especially when you consider how much user joined dates were put on display in this thread. Not to flame anyone, but foman saying that people who have been here years look silly making threads like this is an example of that. If you dont have an idea of how things work here in 2 years, you really arent going to ever get it, so why does it matter if it is two years or five? The fact is that it doesnt. Nothing should look silly based on the time in of the member, instead you should look at the post. Content>age.

I don't hate you anymore! j/k
Amen, SBC.

  • 11.01.2007 2:05 PM PDT

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Posted by: Deus_Ex_Machina
Cortana 5 is a carbon-based lifeform that frequently visits these forums, currently residing in the United States. Practically every male on the site responds to her posts.

The Joyeuse IP Formula

Posted by: SexyBanannaGirl
Posted by: cortana 5
I don't hate you anymore! j/k

So you still hate me? :(

:P

I never hated you! You just sometimes annoyed me to no end! Haha.
Don't worry. <3

  • 11.01.2007 2:10 PM PDT

Posted by: SexyBanannaGirl
Posted by: atomic weggie
Let's stop putting each other on trial.

Its funny that you say this, especially when you consider how much user joined dates were put on display in this thread. Not to flame anyone, but foman saying that people who have been here years look silly making threads like this is an example of that. If you dont have an idea of how things work here in 2 years, you really arent going to ever get it, so why does it matter if it is two years or five? The fact is that it doesnt. Nothing should look silly based on the time in of the member, instead you should look at the post. Content>age.


Totally agree. I could care less how long someone's been here. I've also seen a lot of new members turned off by the treatment they've received from older members. That's like saying you're opinion doesn't count about Halo because you're only a 10 rank.

I'm just trying to steer this thread into a more positive, what can we do from here on out, rather than chastising each other. Yes, we've identified the problems, so let's move on and try and make things better.

  • 11.01.2007 2:14 PM PDT

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~~Pardon Our Dust.~~

I'd like to say that putting time and effort into making this a better place, and then have someone from 'back then' come in and spit in my face is a little irritating.

Now, Ignoring everything off-topic, I will comment on the original post.

If anything, the community has changed drastically. You say, Shai, you've seen a large lack of change. That's really funny, considering everyone else posting here seems to think the community has changed a ton, from faces to overall attitude. Just something to think about.

More people have come, and many of the old members have gone, or are no longer really part of what goes on around here. I may be wrong in saying they're not part of the community, but lack of helping out or general existance does make me question how much of the community they actually are.

Now, I completely agree that the "cliques" and what-not are completely silly, and as you can tell, they cause contention. I guess no one can be forced to visit all the forums as I try to do, or participate equally. So, Shai, what this looks like to me, is just a general complaint, with no proposed solution or idea. Are you just venting, or were you trying to accomplish something specific here?

  • 11.01.2007 2:26 PM PDT
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Destinypedia - The Wiki for Bungie's Destiny
Posted by: DEATHPIMP72
Anyone but Foman. He smells like cheese.

Posted by: SexyBanannaGirl
Posted by: atomic weggie
Let's stop putting each other on trial.

Its funny that you say this, especially when you consider how much user joined dates were put on display in this thread. Not to flame anyone, but foman saying that people who have been here years look silly making threads like this is an example of that. If you dont have an idea of how things work here in 2 years, you really arent going to ever get it, so why does it matter if it is two years or five? The fact is that it doesnt. Nothing should look silly based on the time in of the member, instead you should look at the post. Content>age.
Unless I'm misreading your post, I think that you misread mine. I never put join dates on display, nor did I ever say that people who have been here for years look silly making threads like this. I said that it's silly for people who have been here for years to lament about the "good old days," considering that a few years hardly makes much difference on a forum like this. In that sense, you and I seem to be 100% in agreement.

  • 11.01.2007 2:26 PM PDT

Strange evolution how people have come to believe
That we are it's greatest achievement
We're barely, we're just a collection of cells
Overrating themselves

Posted by: SexyBanannaGirl
If you dont have an idea of how things work here in 2 years, you really arent going to ever get it, so why does it matter if it is two years or five?

The thread was never about anyone "getting it".

Shai, et al; were venting their frustrations of days gone by, and the Communities inability to bring back what once was. Only those who were here back then (which I wasnt) can truly judge then vs. now. Thats why membership dates are being tossed around.

Personally, I feel that the Community has shifted from "Hey, Bungies a cool company with some great games" to an over-abundance of ADHD afflicted rank-whores. Its no suprise that the population outside of b.net contains the same demographics.

What am I going to do? Nothing. I'll still be here, with a bottle of tequila and my leg warmers humming an old Kenny Rogers song, at least until they block b.net at work.

  • 11.01.2007 2:26 PM PDT
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Posted by: x Foman123 x
Personally, I've been impressed by you in the past. Your apology thread from last January was humble and touching, and I've never seen anything you posted here outrage my conscience, despite the fact that I don't always see things the way you do. That is why, although I disagreed with you, it was a respectful disagreement and I went to great lengths to explain why I simply saw things differently.

I think that a lot of the hostility in this thread from all of the various posters is somewhat unwarranted, but also understandable. It mostly boils down to seeing the same thing in different ways. I'm not going to make this a "can't we all just get along" post (mostly because they don't work), nor am I going to assign any fault. But I will say that it's disappointing to see how things have deteriorated past the second page of this thread.

Perhaps it's because of my line of work, but I can totally see the validity of all of the various viewpoints in this thread. Flaming and insults aside, the basics of the current conflict are that one side thinks that due to his long absence, Shai has no ability or perspective that would allow him to truly opine on the state of the Community. They also see Shai's original post as an insult to the Community due to its provocative tone near the end of the post and its lack of solutions to the alleged "problem" with the Community. The other side, obviously, thinks that mere non-participation should not be a bar to commenting on the current state of affairs, and also tends to agree with the original post. If it were possible to discuss this issue civilly, this topic would be worthy of its own thread and would probably be an extremely engaging and interesting debate.

Although I have my own perspective on this particular issue and I'm willing to argue it, I've hesitated to jump back into this discussion at this point after my one post on page 2. This is because, in my opinion, the discussion's rather passionate intensity and the hostility I see are unproductive and perhaps a bit overdramatic. Again, I'm not pointing fingers at either side, but I just don't want to get involved in all of the hyperbole and emotion that have eclipsed the original issue.

I understand that the conversation has migrated somewhat, Shai, but if you get a chance, I'd like to see your response to my post on the second page of this thread, which is far more on point for this thread's original purpose. Not that I'm trying to "guide" things back on topic (because I kind of like the way these Septagon threads tend to "evolve"), but I was rather disappointed at the nasty turn that this thread took. At this rate, it won't be long until the thread is locked for being too far gone to allow for any further meaningful discussion. And that would be a shame, because I am enjoying the discussion and the more civil arguments being raised by everybody who has posted here.


Can I point out that this thread is about the community, not you? You're not helping progress.

elmicker - I think the council is a great idea. You should try to get it back together, and you may as well try to set things in motion yourself. It'd be a good way to get people working together to a common aim.

  • 11.01.2007 2:30 PM PDT
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Crimson Clover

I just wanted to say, that I love you all.

  • 11.01.2007 2:36 PM PDT