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Subject: Censorship
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I've been contemplating on the issue of censoring all religious/political references in these forums. Obviously in any other forums such references are spam, and in here they can spark intense flame wars due to people taking sides on issues- sometimes to extremes. What I am complaining about isn't that topics about religion and politics are banned, but rather that any references are to be kept out of the forums.

As many of you may know, I have, in the past, had the phrase, "Jesus!!! That's my king." in my signature. I was told by Shishka that it had to be removed, which I did. His reason for having me remove it seems reasonable- references to religion and/or politics can spark negativity in forum members of the opposite view.

But I wonder, is it truly necessary to remove rather passive references of religion or politics? After all, I had the "Jesus" reference in my signature for four months without inciting a single negative remark. In fact, the only feedback I recieved from it was a positive remark from DUSTER, who told me of his Christian views and plans for setting up Halo LAN parties at his church (over PM of course). My sig was not offensive, but was a simple statement of my beliefs.

Now I am not going against Shishka telling me to take the "Jesus" out of my signature. I just feel that there was no problem being caused by it. So why must something so non-problematic have to go?

-Sarge

  • 12.15.2004 7:41 PM PDT
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For some reason i'm thinking about the ACLU now...

  • 12.15.2004 7:45 PM PDT
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ACLU?

  • 12.15.2004 7:48 PM PDT
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I agree with you but its just easier for the Mod's to keep it all out of the Forum.
Example: If somebody had "Jesus sucks, Allah owns" (This is hypothetical) in their sig and was asked to remove it, they could point to your sig and whine "Im not taking mine out because he has a reference in his!!"

I agree but I see where the Mod's are coming from.

  • 12.15.2004 7:49 PM PDT

Posted by: The Sarge
ACLU?


If you even speak those words you’re going to start an ass load of flame wars. Be carefull.

  • 12.15.2004 7:52 PM PDT
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It's actually not censorship, you know.

I see your point, but I see the moderators' even better. It's a good idea to keep religious/political references out of forums where it could spark intense off-topic debate (I'm looking at you here, Bungie.net). Look at it this way--if they allowed Jesus, they'd have to allow Satan and Richard Nixon. Nobody wants that.

  • 12.15.2004 7:54 PM PDT
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The United States of America-- STILL more rights than North Korea!
--New official U.S. motto.

Cronin's Law----The New Flood Drinking Game

"it is estimated that over three thousand individuals over the course of history have died rather than submit to breaking their eggs at the smaller end."
--
I dunno wtf that has to do with anything, but its in Farenheit 451, which is about censorship... which is kinda related?

  • 12.15.2004 7:55 PM PDT
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Posted by: eliteskull94
I agree with you but its just easier for the Mod's to keep it all out of the Forum.
Example: If somebody had "Jesus sucks, Allah owns" (This is hypothetical) in their sig and was asked to remove it, they could point to your sig and whine "Im not taking mine out because he has a reference in his!!"

I agree but I see where the Mod's are coming from.
Granted, but that sort of reference is offensive. I could see no problem arising from a sig stating "Allah is my God," since it is a simple statement, rather than something that one could take true offense to.

  • 12.15.2004 7:55 PM PDT
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Posted by:Banshee Barron
Posted by: The Sarge
ACLU?


If you even speak those words you’re going to start an ass load of flame wars. Be carefull.
Just wondering what it meant. If you would be so kind as to explain it to me, over PM if you'd like.

[Edited on 12/15/2004 8:08:53 PM]

  • 12.15.2004 7:59 PM PDT
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I'm not implying that its existence was offensive to anyone, but that its existence could cause problems for the Mod's.

  • 12.15.2004 8:05 PM PDT
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Nah, the ACLU doesn't care about private goings-on unless those goings on involve governmental violations of civil rights. Bungie can do whatever the hell it wants.

  • 12.15.2004 8:08 PM PDT

-S

Here's the truth and the whole of the truth. Prepare to recieve my dark medecines.

The greater majority of the internet is stuck up idiot trolls, narrow minded bigots, and zealous fundamentalists. Forums are not sanctuary from these people.

It's our job as moderators (and as a Bungie employee charged with working with community on a regular basis) that we do what is necessary to keep the forums running like clockwork. Part of this is doing what we can to deal with offensive posts and posters.

Now, here's where the fun part comes in: What you or I may feel is "offensive" doesn't necessarily mean that's someone else's definition.

In other words, yes, someone may be offended by a forum signature. Even if it's as simple as a statement of personal belief.

Alternatively, a person may decide to use that as reason to flame other users. I've seen it before: Entire threads devoted to calling a user an idiot because they supported one presidential candidate over the other, or have a religious belief that isn't the same as theirs, or even is of another nationality.

Further still is the more common situation: A user sees an opinion in another user's sig, wishes to discuss it, finds out they can't, and feels restricted while and sees the other user as recieving preferential treatment. Then they might put something in THEIR sig that offends the other person, and the process begins again.

And before you start saying "I don't care what other people think," keep in mind that you don't represent anyone other than yourself. I have a thousand people every day to watch over, and that means restricting the freedoms of all to balance for the sensibilities of the many various minds that pass through here on any given day.

The rule stands. No religious, political, or ethnic commentary in your signature, just as there is none in the forum. This is not going to change. If you cannot deal with this, you may as well seek out another forum.

  • 12.15.2004 8:12 PM PDT
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Posted by: Shishka
This is not going to change. If you cannot deal with this, you may as well seek out another forum.
Maybe I will find another forum, or better yet a Group devoted to religious and political discussion, where I could sign all my posts with "Jesus!!! That's my king." But in the mean time, I'll be staying here.

-Sarge

[Edited on 12/15/2004 8:38:46 PM]

  • 12.15.2004 8:37 PM PDT
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I've seen people flame each other over the use of All-Caps, which is really not an important issue. So if He's your king and someone wants to flame you for it, I'm just fine with that. Are you? Are you willing to let it escelate, or are you going to just turn the other cheek, and perhaps write an opinionated, calm response, using reasons, instead of harsh language? After all, You can say whatever you want to someone over live, so why not type whatever you want in the forums? If the thread turns sour, and you quit posting to it, it will be lost in a matter of a half a day. Mabye Bungie should weed out the people who post multiple flames instead of offering some constructive criticism, or different opinions.

  • 12.15.2004 8:55 PM PDT
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Posted by: Banshee Barron
Posted by: The Sarge
ACLU?


If you even speak those words you’re going to start an ass load of flame wars. Be carefull.

Aherm! I take creadit for those words.

[Edited on 12/15/2004 9:02:00 PM]

  • 12.15.2004 9:01 PM PDT
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Posted by: Texas Ben
"it is estimated that over three thousand individuals over the course of history have died rather than submit to breaking their eggs at the smaller end."
--
I dunno wtf that has to do with anything, but its in Farenheit 451, which is about censorship... which is kinda related?


It's twelve thousand, actually. It's to do with the human spirit and how it can resolve itself against minor issues. Beatty speaking to Montag, right?

  • 12.15.2004 9:04 PM PDT
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Posted by: Twitch666
can I put satan is my mistress?
because I can guarantee you that there's nothing religious about that


...See? A well meaning thread with it's best intentions, can be hurt by open discussion.

  • 12.15.2004 9:08 PM PDT
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Shishka's post was the long version. For those who don't really want to read it all, the gist of it was that this is Bungie's forum. Their game, their rules. You have no freedoms here outside of what Bungie has granted you. If you don't approve, there are plenty of other forums out there.

  • 12.15.2004 9:09 PM PDT
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Posted by: Sofa King Slick
I've seen people flame each other over the use of All-Caps, which is really not an important issue. So if He's your king and someone wants to flame you for it, I'm just fine with that. Are you? Are you willing to let it escelate, or are you going to just turn the other cheek, and perhaps write an opinionated, calm response, using reasons, instead of harsh language? After all, You can say whatever you want to someone over live, so why not type whatever you want in the forums? If the thread turns sour, and you quit posting to it, it will be lost in a matter of a half a day. Mabye Bungie should weed out the people who post multiple flames instead of offering some constructive criticism, or different opinions.


Even the most well-intended debates have the potential to escalate into a name-calling contest. It's better to not even give that a chance to happen.

  • 12.15.2004 9:47 PM PDT
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Posted by: Tanikaze
Posted by: Sofa King Slick
I've seen people flame each other over the use of All-Caps, which is really not an important issue. So if He's your king and someone wants to flame you for it, I'm just fine with that. Are you? Are you willing to let it escelate, or are you going to just turn the other cheek, and perhaps write an opinionated, calm response, using reasons, instead of harsh language? After all, You can say whatever you want to someone over live, so why not type whatever you want in the forums? If the thread turns sour, and you quit posting to it, it will be lost in a matter of a half a day. Mabye Bungie should weed out the people who post multiple flames instead of offering some constructive criticism, or different opinions.


Even the most well-intended debates have the potential to escalate into a name-calling contest. It's better to not even give that a chance to happen.
But what are the results of those name calling contests? Are they really that horrible? It just seems to me that we take flame fests out of proportion. Sure, they're unpleasent. Sure, they're stupid. But all the mods have to do is lock the thread and possibly ban some of the participants. I've seen flame fests, and I think they ill in comparison to threads where spammers post links to trojans. Those threads are true problems. They can damage computers. But flame fests just show the true colors of some of the more ignorant of the forums.

  • 12.15.2004 9:56 PM PDT
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The Sarge, one thing you don't seem to understand is that as it stands at the moment the mods have way too much work to do. They don't get paid to moderate, they're real people with real lives, and having so many more flame fests just wouldn't be a good thing. Being able to put that message in your sig just isn't worth it. You can make a religious chapter, though, and talk about whatever you want there.

  • 12.15.2004 10:07 PM PDT

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