Halo 3 Forum
This topic has moved here: Subject: In depth explanation of the Halo 3 skill ranking system.
  • Subject: In depth explanation of the Halo 3 skill ranking system.
Subject: In depth explanation of the Halo 3 skill ranking system.
  • gamertag:
  • user homepage:
  • last post: 01.01.0001 12:00 AM PDT

I've won a 178 game with no loses and im a level 15 but you know what i doesn't matter how the system works because I'm having fun and the people i play with don't can about a stupid number. A number shouldn't be the reason to play a game because if it is then you are missing the point. You don't play to show off your rank you play to have fun. If you are only playing for rank there is a high chance you won't play very long on the game anyways. If you want to prove how good you are go play in a live event like mlg. Playing live to prove how good you are is like a minnow in the ocean yelling I'm the biggest here.

  • 11.29.2007 12:44 PM PDT
  • gamertag:
  • user homepage:
  • last post: 01.01.0001 12:00 AM PDT

good explanation of the system
Posted by: SickRealskillz
um i checked your name chaddie you have played 285 i dunno how many are team slayer but the total overall is way over 100. what i'm getting at is if the teammates your playing with play alot of games that is factored in for the whole team not just for you. so if you havent played very many and they have and they lost alot or half then you will not rank up quick playing with them in your party because there sigma is factored in with yours you have to play by yourself rank up and then play with them if you want but again if they only when like half of their games you guys wont rank up quick, even if you win 30 in a row they lost alot before that maybe not you but they did. its not as bad for double team because you only got 1 guy that his sigma is factored in and everybody receives the same mu for the win so if your teammates all have low sigma but yours is high the low will out weigh the high and thats why you dont rank up if you want to rank up and truly have won most you games then play by yourself for awhile.

  • 11.29.2007 1:20 PM PDT

Posted by: BRMrPurple
I've won a 178 game with no loses and im a level 15 but you know what i doesn't matter how the system works because I'm having fun and the people i play with don't can about a stupid number. A number shouldn't be the reason to play a game because if it is then you are missing the point. You don't play to show off your rank you play to have fun. If you are only playing for rank there is a high chance you won't play very long on the game anyways. If you want to prove how good you are go play in a live event like mlg. Playing live to prove how good you are is like a minnow in the ocean yelling I'm the biggest here.
People in your situation generally complain because they aren't getting any competition not because they care about the number next to there name. In most cases an individual would find winning 178 games against people that can't compete very boring. Apparently you enjoy it but I think your an exception. The other problem with this is the people you are beating don't enjoy playing you. It's really not fair to them at all. So this does in fact matter. However, this problem is getting looked into and hopefully it can be remedied by Bungie.

[Edited on 11.29.2007 2:31 PM PST]

  • 11.29.2007 1:56 PM PDT
  • gamertag:
  • user homepage:
  • last post: 01.01.0001 12:00 AM PDT

That is you. i'm different. i have never before had to win 28 games in a row to level up once. my other account is level 40 and has played 1/3 of the games i have on this account. we finnaly leveled up to 33 last night. i do play for fun, but i also take it seriously because im a competitive person. what is wrong with wanting to go up in levels to play better people?

  • 11.29.2007 2:14 PM PDT

Posted by: GGL BLiNDSiDE
I don't understand the sigma and mu stuff but what i dont understand is how me and my friend GGL Baculum can go on a 27 game win streak in team slayer and not level up past 31. any explanation will be useful.
Looking at your games played I believe you are slow to go up due to your winning record. There are two known problems with the system that I know of:

1) It doesn't handle mixed parties properly.
- From the looks of it you don't fall into this catagory. You tend to play with GGLBaculum all the time but it's generally just you two and you are both the same rank.

2) Having too good a record will slow ranking.
- This appears to be the culperet. You've only posted 3 losses so your win percentage is in the high 90's. From what I've seen winning too often will actually slow your ranking. The problem or at least part of it is believed to be the conservative nature of the ranking system combined with the high uncertainty of your skill level. Basically the system might actually believe you could be in the range of 33-45 or something like that. It's conservative so it picks the lower estimate.

- To solve the issue you could try several things. First you could try losing more. I know that sucks but it may help the issue. Secondly you could try splitting up for some games and see if that helps. Thirdly I might suggest pairing up with a higher rank if you know someone. It looks like you finally started to move again once you paired up with xX GTM Xx who was a 39. However, this may just put you into the mixed party catagory which has problems of it's own. The best idea might be to mix two solutions. If you both split up but pair up with lets say 48's or something you won't have as much of an issue being in a mixed party. You'll also more then likely end up playing against higher ranks and thus have more of a challange. In this case hopefully winning will actually move you up and if you lose that's probably a good thing at this point. So it might just be a win win situation. Once you've leveled to a competative area you can play together again.


Bungie is looking into both of these issues and hopefully they will be able to fix them. Until then you're going to have to either deal with it or try to work around the issue effecting you. Sorry I don't have better news but I believe that is the answer to your troubles and at least now you know why you are having this experience.

[Edited on 11.29.2007 2:29 PM PST]

  • 11.29.2007 2:24 PM PDT
  • gamertag:
  • user homepage:
  • last post: 01.01.0001 12:00 AM PDT

It Might be me misunderstanding the first post but, on my second account BBM MASSIVE, i won 16 games in doubles with my partner and didn't progress a single lvl from my 37, which im gueeing is to do with my sigma. But as soon as i lost a single game i dropped to a 36 instantly, which I believe goes against everything that has been said so far.

When you win 16 without goin up then lose one and go down it is pretty annoying and to me extremely unfair.

  • 11.30.2007 9:13 AM PDT
  • gamertag:
  • user homepage:
  • last post: 01.01.0001 12:00 AM PDT

So if i am winning about 1 game to every loss, I have a low sigma.

If I go banannas and win 15 out of 20 my sigma is high?

So a 35 that wins 70% of his games against other 35s (lets keep it simple) has a potenital true skill of say 39 because of a high sigma?

But a 35 that wins 55% of his games against other 35s has a potential of 36 because of a low sigma?

Does that seem right?

Is there any way to see your win to loss ratio besides reading through your game history?

I would like to figure out my sigma from my 42 in slayer, I want that brigadier symbol.





[Edited on 11.30.2007 9:43 AM PST]

  • 11.30.2007 9:42 AM PDT
  • gamertag:
  • user homepage:
  • last post: 01.01.0001 12:00 AM PDT

Halo, like most games with multiplayer, is competitive.

Play to win, otherwise you are disrupting the systematic ranking process, whether for your own team or the opponents.

  • 11.30.2007 9:47 AM PDT

Posted by: Shadow x Hawk x
It Might be me misunderstanding the first post but, on my second account BBM MASSIVE, i won 16 games in doubles with my partner and didn't progress a single lvl from my 37, which im gueeing is to do with my sigma. But as soon as i lost a single game i dropped to a 36 instantly, which I believe goes against everything that has been said so far.

When you win 16 without goin up then lose one and go down it is pretty annoying and to me extremely unfair.
Your situation is understandably confusing. I took a look at your games and I only saw one team doubles loss. There may have been a couple more but even so that means you have a very high win %. A high win rate appears to slow down individuals ability to level up. If you win to much eventually your progress begins to slow and can even stall. This is a known issue and Bungie is looking into it. The worst example I've seen is a team that won 140 games without losing and is stuck at level 15. In fact they actually made it to level 16 but dropped back to 15 after a win.

This problem is believed, at least in part, to be do to the conservative ranking the system uses. It's actually still very uncertain where you belong, thus it's willing to move you liberally up or down (normally). Under extreme conditions (teams that win to much) it's so unsure it can actually stall out in the up direction, and because it's conservative it has you lower then it thinks you might be. Under these conditions wins don't seem to do as much for you as far as ranking up but losses can really hurt. In truth the system at this point probably believes you are actually higher then the 36 it shows you to be, but it's being conservative and that's why you are still at 36.

So that's the basic reason as far as I understand it of why this happend. Bungie is looking into this issue so it's something that will hopefully be fixed in the future. For now you can try a few workarounds which may allow you to level up higher where you belong.

1) Lose some games. This should help eleviate the issue and allow you to rank properly again.
2) You can split up from your teammate and try going in alone for a little bit.
3) You could try pairing up with a higher rank if you know someone. In the very least this might bring you tougher competition which will be more fun. Hopefully if you win this will help you move up further and if you don't...well I think that's a good thing to at this point.

I recommend those measures only if you really believe you are stuck. Looking at your past games I believe you may start to have issues going up, but I'd try playing with your partner some more first and see what happens.

[Edited on 11.30.2007 12:16 PM PST]

  • 11.30.2007 12:08 PM PDT
  • gamertag:
  • user homepage:
  • last post: 01.01.0001 12:00 AM PDT

As good as this all sounds it is mighty bloody annoying when you win 7 games in a row and dont rank up at all yet people you are plying in a group with are ranking up every game and your winning the thing.

I was playing with a group I was a level 39 he ws a 39 by the end of it he was a 42 and I was a 39 so how is this at all fair? Screw the system it should be as simple as you win you go up the same and if you lose you go down the same.

  • 11.30.2007 6:03 PM PDT

Posted by: FecknMental
As good as this all sounds it is mighty bloody annoying when you win 7 games in a row and dont rank up at all yet people you are plying in a group with are ranking up every game and your winning the thing.

I was playing with a group I was a level 39 he ws a 39 by the end of it he was a 42 and I was a 39 so how is this at all fair? Screw the system it should be as simple as you win you go up the same and if you lose you go down the same.
The system is fair in that regard. Why should you go up together if you don't play together all the time. The current situation arises because the two of you (or more) haven't played all your games together. Only people who play EVERY game together will rank the same. Think of it this way. Your friend is a 39 and has won 80% of his games and is on a 7 game winning streak. Remember this is just a hypothetical. You on the other hand have been a 39 for a month now and have played about 100 games while only winning 50. Why should you go up the same number of ranks as your friend for winning those 7 games. Basically the system says "okay maybe you've improved but based on your record it's possible this is just a small streak." Your friend in that scenerio has obviously proven his merit more then you have. The system is going to move him faster.

  • 11.30.2007 6:27 PM PDT
  • gamertag:
  • user homepage:
  • last post: 01.01.0001 12:00 AM PDT

Thank you so much!
I just had a discussion about how we thought we gained levels and you cleared a lot up.
Hope to see you guys in game :)

  • 11.30.2007 8:28 PM PDT

i have two file shares of me getting 25 kills in a row without dying
Bungie better give me some reconigtion


Posted by: muscrat
Finally sumthing 2 stop the whiners. :D

You can has Recon!


[Edited on 11.30.2007 9:45 PM PST]

  • 11.30.2007 9:44 PM PDT
  • gamertag:
  • user homepage:
  • last post: 01.01.0001 12:00 AM PDT

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. — That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, — That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness. Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shewn that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security. — Such has been the patient sufferance of these Colonies; and such is now the necessity which constrains them to alter their former Systems of Government. The history of the present King of Great Britain is a history of repeated injuries and usurpations, all having in direct object the establishment of an absolute Tyranny over these States. To prove this, let Facts be submitted to a candid world.

  • 12.01.2007 11:21 AM PDT
  • gamertag:
  • user homepage:
  • last post: 01.01.0001 12:00 AM PDT

Posted by: TwoFaced1680
Posted by: FecknMental
As good as this all sounds it is mighty bloody annoying when you win 7 games in a row and dont rank up at all yet people you are plying in a group with are ranking up every game and your winning the thing.

I was playing with a group I was a level 39 he ws a 39 by the end of it he was a 42 and I was a 39 so how is this at all fair? Screw the system it should be as simple as you win you go up the same and if you lose you go down the same.
The system is fair in that regard. Why should you go up together if you don't play together all the time. The current situation arises because the two of you (or more) haven't played all your games together. Only people who play EVERY game together will rank the same. Think of it this way. Your friend is a 39 and has won 80% of his games and is on a 7 game winning streak. Remember this is just a hypothetical. You on the other hand have been a 39 for a month now and have played about 100 games while only winning 50. Why should you go up the same number of ranks as your friend for winning those 7 games. Basically the system says "okay maybe you've improved but based on your record it's possible this is just a small streak." Your friend in that scenerio has obviously proven his merit more then you have. The system is going to move him faster.


But at the end of the day I have played hundreds of level 45`s+ and wiped the floor with them so how is it fair that these guys rank up so quick when they clearly cant cope away up at that level. I usually go into games by myself and end up losing big time only if there is no team play or bad connections but when I look at the peoples stats we are going against I have seen people with 400 exp and they have played over 2000 ranked matches so thats a 1 in 5 win ratio so how do these muppets rank up quicker?

Sorry but IMO it should be you win you rank up you lose you lose a rank to pot with your Sigma etc.

And another winge if people want to bring there friends in a game who are just level 9`s etc then why should I be penalized cause they are -blam!-? I win 7 games dont rank up but lose and I lose a rank

  • 12.01.2007 11:29 AM PDT

Posted by: FecknMental
Posted by: TwoFaced1680
Posted by: FecknMental
As good as this all sounds it is mighty bloody annoying when you win 7 games in a row and dont rank up at all yet people you are plying in a group with are ranking up every game and your winning the thing.

I was playing with a group I was a level 39 he ws a 39 by the end of it he was a 42 and I was a 39 so how is this at all fair? Screw the system it should be as simple as you win you go up the same and if you lose you go down the same.
The system is fair in that regard. Why should you go up together if you don't play together all the time. The current situation arises because the two of you (or more) haven't played all your games together. Only people who play EVERY game together will rank the same. Think of it this way. Your friend is a 39 and has won 80% of his games and is on a 7 game winning streak. Remember this is just a hypothetical. You on the other hand have been a 39 for a month now and have played about 100 games while only winning 50. Why should you go up the same number of ranks as your friend for winning those 7 games. Basically the system says "okay maybe you've improved but based on your record it's possible this is just a small streak." Your friend in that scenerio has obviously proven his merit more then you have. The system is going to move him faster.


But at the end of the day I have played hundreds of level 45`s+ and wiped the floor with them so how is it fair that these guys rank up so quick when they clearly cant cope away up at that level. I usually go into games by myself and end up losing big time only if there is no team play or bad connections but when I look at the peoples stats we are going against I have seen people with 400 exp and they have played over 2000 ranked matches so thats a 1 in 5 win ratio so how do these muppets rank up quicker?

Sorry but IMO it should be you win you rank up you lose you lose a rank to pot with your Sigma etc.

And another winge if people want to bring there friends in a game who are just level 9`s etc then why should I be penalized cause they are -blam!-? I win 7 games dont rank up but lose and I lose a rank
How do you know how fast the 45's ranked up? I bet you don't know at all. You just assumed because they are above you they did it faster. That's obviously not necessarily true. Just because they did it earlier doesn't mean the did it faster.

Experience can be lost by quitting. I've seen 45's with NO experience. You can't try to calculate there record by looking at the experience posted online. If you want to know someones real record you have to go to Bungie.net and figure out there experience penality so you can compensate for it. I challange you to show me a 45 with 1/5 of there games won.

If you can really handle 45's then maybe you will be one someday, but I looked at your stats. On the 10th page you were a 41 and soon dropped to a 37. I'm not sure what happend there. Perhaps you share the account, perhaps you had internet difficulty, or perhaps you just couldn't win enough to maintain it. What I do know is that if you look at your games played from the 2nd to the 10th page you played 206 games and lost 103. I might be off by just a little but that's about right. So out of 206 games you won half and were around a 39 that entire time. To me that isn't an indicator of someone who should be any higher.

However, the first page shows a little different story. You won 18 out of 25 games and have moved up to a 41. Maybe somethings changed or maybe it was just a good series of games for you. Either way you are now moving back up. In my opinion after going 103/103 you shouldn't move up after just 7 wins in a row. The problem I found with Halo 2's system (and is basically what you want) is that the ranks would move after every little streak. 7 wins in a row (which is bound to happen even if you aren't any better) would move you up a couple ranks. The next night you'd fall back down. It was a constant back and forth. I like the stability this system offers. I think it's the right way to do it.

  • 12.01.2007 1:06 PM PDT
  • gamertag:
  • user homepage:
  • last post: 01.01.0001 12:00 AM PDT

dont blame the ranking system seby for you not being able to lvl up. Try to keep a positive K/D ratio first before you complain. You want to lvl up faster learn how to play.

  • 12.01.2007 6:52 PM PDT
  • gamertag:
  • user homepage:
  • last post: 01.01.0001 12:00 AM PDT

hey i get a question do u ever stop going up? cuz im a 46 in slayer and ive won about ten strait going postive everygame.

the higher u get does it just take a relly long time to go up, or does it just stop

  • 12.02.2007 1:12 PM PDT

Posted by: Mr BIue Sky
hey i get a question do u ever stop going up? cuz im a 46 in slayer and ive won about ten strait going postive everygame.

the higher u get does it just take a relly long time to go up, or does it just stop
The system will never artificially stop you from moving, but that doesn't mean you won't stop going up. Most people will evenatually level out. Once they've done that they may fluctuate up or down by a rank but they're movement should effectivly have stopped.

If you've been stuck at a level for a while it becomes more difficult to move up. Essentially the system becomes somewhat sure you belong at a level and therefore is going require even more proof that you should move (this of course works both in the up and down direction). So depending on how long you've been at 46 and how many games it took you to get there will effect how long it might take to move on to the next level.

Another factor would be who you are playing against. You are rewarded more for beating people above you and less for beating people below you. As you approach the top you will generally start to play more people below you do to the fact that there are fewer and fewer people to play above you. This will also slow down the ranking process.

**EDIT**
Looking back on the second page you partied with a 30. This caused you to be matched against teams with lower ranks. As a rough rule of thumb take the teams ranks and average them together. One of the teams you played was a 46/43/25 another was a 35/46/44 the others on that page were similiar. Because of the lower average rank of those teams you were expected to win. So when you did win you didn't really get a whole lot of credit.

[Edited on 12.02.2007 2:19 PM PST]

  • 12.02.2007 2:13 PM PDT

How many times do I need to say it?

Kill Death ratio's, Headshot's, stick's, medal's MEAN NOTHING! ABSOLUTELY NOTHING!

  • 12.02.2007 6:14 PM PDT

Halo/Bungie FTW!

HELLPPPPP

I think i got a 15 winning streak and just leveled up one level

Maybe my sigma is low? How i rise it?

  • 12.02.2007 6:53 PM PDT
  • gamertag:
  • user homepage:
  • last post: 01.01.0001 12:00 AM PDT

So if this fake rank system works??? How is it that i havn't gone up?

  • 12.02.2007 8:19 PM PDT

Posted by: WeDoItBig
So if this fake rank system works??? How is it that i havn't gone up?
I'm going to assume your talking about Team Doubles, however, in the future it helps to be specific. Considering you are a 48 you must have gone up. You've gone up 48 levels in fact. Keep at it and you might go up higher. I'm assuming you think those 9 wins in a row as a 48 should have brought you up to 49. There are two things to consider here. First you've obviously played a good number of games. As you play more the system zero's in on what it thinks you should be. The more sure of your level the harder it is to go up or down. In the very begining it might have been possible to move a level per game but now that you are a 48 it won't be that easy. You also need to consider the system gives you more credit for beating people above you. Out of those 9 games you only played 1 person above you. It's going to be slower going towards the top because there are fewer and fewer people above you to play. Just keep winning and forget about that rank next to your name. In your case the system is working perfectly.

[Edited on 12.02.2007 9:04 PM PST]

  • 12.02.2007 9:03 PM PDT

Posted by: ReaperX6 BR
HELLPPPPP

I think i got a 15 winning streak and just leveled up one level

Maybe my sigma is low? How i rise it?
It was a 10 game winning streak and yes you only went up once. If it took you a while to reach 33 or you've been there for a while your sigma will be lower and you'll move slower. I don't know exactly how sigma works but I believe if you start to go on a long streak it would actually increase again. Just keep playing and winning. That's the best you can do for yourself. The system will take care of the rest. I noticed most of those games you played were in a very mixed party. This is going to slow down the higher ranks ability to go up because you are going to be playing people below you more often. The system expects you to beat people lower then you so you don't get as much credit for doing so.

  • 12.02.2007 9:17 PM PDT

Halo/Bungie FTW!

Sigma is influenced by SOCIAL matches?

  • 12.03.2007 3:39 AM PDT