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  • Subject: In depth explanation of the Halo 3 skill ranking system.
Subject: In depth explanation of the Halo 3 skill ranking system.

Posted by: LAXICE23
hellllloooooo. my rank ISNT movin and i dont see how that solves it.whats happening here is not that its just standin still; IT HASNT MOVED FROM THE START.
You have an experience penelty of -104. You get penalized every time you quit (or get disconnected). Basically anytime you don't finish a matchmaking game normally you get a penelty. You've earned 46 experience but after subracting the penelty you have -58. So basically at this point you won't see a rank change until you've won about 60 more games, assuming you don't have any more penelties along the way.

  • 12.07.2007 6:37 PM PDT

Ok well I decided to try this out and start a new account (this one) and am a level 37 gunnery Sargent where as my other account FecknMental now known as Me Mental is a level 39 or something and a commander.

I am ranking up really quickly in comparison so it does appear that if your a social gamer who plays a lot with your friends in social etc you get penalized for this by making it almost impossible to rank up.

This is a crap ranking system I have never heard of it being a good idea to penalize someone who plays the game a lot?

  • 12.07.2007 7:11 PM PDT
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Is what bugs me most about the TruSkill bit is the inconsistency in matches. I'll play some matches and I get steamrolled in a couple games and then totally pwn some other team in other matches. So much of the time it feels as if I'm constantly taking skill from similar or lower skilled players ( but similarly ranked ) and handing it off to higher skilled players that are still climbing the ladder to get up to their "TruSkill". I think this is caused by three things:

A lack of real comparison between different skill levels. As level 40s and level 20s rarely fight, it's tough for someone with a real skill of 40 but a current rating of 20 to prove themself. Instead, they have to pwn other level 20s over and over again, occasionally getting pwned by level 45s in the same boat.

Sigma goes down too easily. The game doesn't take in enough data to properly gauge a player's skill before deciding that it knows what the players skill is very strongly before it actually does.

There's no room for "proven noobs". In the Elo ranking system, people can go down from the starting position, and then find matches among similarly low-ranked players. In the TruSkill system, everyone starts at rank 1, so someone that really has a rank of 1 will forever be a stepping stone for everyone else climbing the ladder and won't ever get a chance to fight people of similarly low skill. Well, they might, but it would be very rare as long as new people are joining the ranking pool.

  • 12.07.2007 9:50 PM PDT
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I am really trying not to complain. I read the whole explaination of the ranking system that was posted and I checked my last 50 team slayer ranked games. After that I find I am more frustrated than ever. Out of 50 team slayer matches I have only lost 4, I am not ranking up and its really starting to anger me. Bungie plz explain why this is happening.

  • 12.07.2007 10:09 PM PDT

Posted by: Siths Bud
Ok well I decided to try this out and start a new account (this one) and am a level 37 gunnery Sargent where as my other account FecknMental now known as Me Mental is a level 39 or something and a commander.

I am ranking up really quickly in comparison so it does appear that if your a social gamer who plays a lot with your friends in social etc you get penalized for this by making it almost impossible to rank up.

This is a crap ranking system I have never heard of it being a good idea to penalize someone who plays the game a lot?
No. The skill leveling from one playlist to another is completly seperate. You don't get penalized for playing social. That's just silly. It's an easy explanation and has nothing to do with penelizing those that play lots of social.

If you beat someone of a higher rank you get a lot more credit toward ranking. The first account you made which is now "me mental" you paired up with equally ranked individuals at the start. As a result you played against equally ranked individuals and thus got a normal amount of credit for winning. Your record for the first 89 games was 51-38 which is about a 57% winning record.

However, the second account you made you played with higher ranks. It looks like the lowest high level you paired with was a 23. Sometimes they were even higher. This meant your opponents were much higher ranks also and you were rewarded far more for each win. Your record for the 81 games played so far is 53-28 which is about a 65% win rate. Not only were you playing higher ranked people which gave you a boost, but you had a better record.

In addition to those two large differences, on your first account "me mental" it appears that at least for part of those first 89 games you paired with a much lower rank. By pairing with a lower rank your opponents tend to be lower then you and fall somewhere in the middle of the low and high rank on the team. Beating lower ranks gives you much less credit when you win.

So not only were you not "boosted" by higher ranks on the first account but you were also held back later on by lower ranks and you had a worse win rate. Seems to me that's a more likely reason for ranking slower, don't you think?

[Edited on 12.07.2007 10:35 PM PST]

  • 12.07.2007 10:33 PM PDT

Posted by: Mylon
A lack of real comparison between different skill levels. As level 40s and level 20s rarely fight, it's tough for someone with a real skill of 40 but a current rating of 20 to prove themself. Instead, they have to pwn other level 20s over and over again, occasionally getting pwned by level 45s in the same boat.
The TrueSkill system is actually supposed to be an improvement in this area. It allows for better players to rank more quickly so they have to play fewer games to get up high. I'm not sure if you played Halo 2 online but basically there was a set number of games you had to play to make it to your level. There was no way for better players to speed through the ranks. However, TrueSkill allows players to move pretty fast early on and even skip ranks.

Posted by: Mylon
Sigma goes down too easily. The game doesn't take in enough data to properly gauge a player's skill before deciding that it knows what the players skill is very strongly before it actually does.
I'm not sure I really agree here. There are a couple issues that have caused some people to rank slower then they should, but I don't think it's related to how fast Sigma drops. These issues are being looked at and will hopefully be fixed. Under normal circumstances I don't think people are getting stuck to early due to Sigma.

Posted by: Mylon
There's no room for "proven noobs". In the Elo ranking system, people can go down from the starting position, and then find matches among similarly low-ranked players. In the TruSkill system, everyone starts at rank 1, so someone that really has a rank of 1 will forever be a stepping stone for everyone else climbing the ladder and won't ever get a chance to fight people of similarly low skill. Well, they might, but it would be very rare as long as new people are joining the ranking pool.
I don't think the starting position is a limitation of TrueSkill. I don't see why they can't set it up to start us at 25 or something like that. I think that would be a great idea (at least in theory). You are absolutly right though. 1's are always stepped on by every single person moving up. That is certainly a problem for the lower ranks. I honestly think this is doable under the current system. At this point I'm guessing it wouldn't be changed, but I think it could have been done that way.

  • 12.07.2007 10:57 PM PDT
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my question is pretty simple, i remember in halo2 that bungie had a feature online that showed your progress toward levelup, does that feature exist for halo 3 and if not will it

  • 12.08.2007 12:49 AM PDT

Posted by: TwoFaced1680
I don't think the starting position is a limitation of TrueSkill. I don't see why they can't set it up to start us at 25 or something like that. I think that would be a great idea (at least in theory). You are absolutly right though. 1's are always stepped on by every single person moving up. That is certainly a problem for the lower ranks. I honestly think this is doable under the current system. At this point I'm guessing it wouldn't be changed, but I think it could have been done that way.
It never ends does it TwoFaced?

Anyway, a player will not be a level 1 for more than a few games. The system does MM by more than just your skill level. Initially it also matches players who have a low sigma against players who have a high sigma as "tests" to enable the system to get new players up quickly. For instance, a player who is a 1 with a high sigma matched against a player who is a 5 with a low sigma. Player with 1 wins and gains a lot of mu because the system is pretty certain that the player with a 5 should be a 5 and keeps player 1's sigma high moving him as much as 2 skills.

If a player is in the "below average" range of the system, they are going to be a "stepping stone" as the bulk of the players are better than them. If someone is a 10, they will be constantly playing "new" players as those new players move up. If the constant influx of new players slows down, those at the lowest skill levels should start having a better experience.

  • 12.08.2007 6:17 AM PDT
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Posted by: TwoFaced1680
The TrueSkill system is actually supposed to be an improvement in this area. It allows for better players to rank more quickly so they have to play fewer games to get up high. I'm not sure if you played Halo 2 online but basically there was a set number of games you had to play to make it to your level. There was no way for better players to speed through the ranks. However, TrueSkill allows players to move pretty fast early on and even skip ranks.

I'm not sure I really agree here. There are a couple issues that have caused some people to rank slower then they should, but I don't think it's related to how fast Sigma drops. These issues are being looked at and will hopefully be fixed. Under normal circumstances I don't think people are getting stuck to early due to Sigma.


Fewer games, but still too many. Like I've explained, very often it feels like I'm that stepping stone for someone that hasn't yet reached their "tru skill". A few of my losses can be attributed to genuine good matches, but I still end up fighting a lot of people that get 20+ kills out of 50 in a match, suggesting that they are really above and beyond their supposed skill.

I don't think the starting position is a limitation of TrueSkill. I don't see why they can't set it up to start us at 25 or something like that. I think that would be a great idea (at least in theory). You are absolutly right though. 1's are always stepped on by every single person moving up. That is certainly a problem for the lower ranks. I honestly think this is doable under the current system. At this point I'm guessing it wouldn't be changed, but I think it could have been done that way.

Sure, TruSkill _could_ start at 20 or 25 or whatever and that would give more room for people to compare themselves to the average and prevent below average people from being treated like stepping stones all of the time. The fact it currently starts at 1 does seem like a limitation. Maybe not of the system itself, but definitely of its application.

Another interesting note is how so many people try so hard to level up, treating that as the endgoal in itself. People should work on improving their game and seeing their truskill reflect this, as opposed to merely trying to get their truskill up, perhaps artificially so.

  • 12.08.2007 9:04 AM PDT

Wow you checked all those games lol.

The thing is though I am winning 1 or 2 games then ranking up whereas with the Mental Me account I had won something like 20 games and never ranked up.

I know what you mean though about the lower ranks and personally I am fed up with it that people are bringing lower ranks into my games who cant handle the pace or the other team have lower levels that are really really good which means I lose more rank points :-(

  • 12.08.2007 9:31 AM PDT

~~Lieutenant Chaise~~

Posted by: Jay120171
Posted by: Lt Chaise
Ok, I think I understand that part, but what about this. I'm going to use an example here and say you need 300 exp to be promoted to Commander Grade 2, but 250 exp to be promoted to Colonel Grade 1. If the exp needed for a total differnet rank is lower then the exp needed for another grade of a lower rank, then is it possible to get to get that next grade of the lower rank, even if you have the exp to be promoted to the next different rank?

I think I understand but here is how it works. For example, you would need 250 EXP AND a Highest Skill of 40 to get the next rank. If you don't get the skill of 40 then you just get Grade increases like Grade 2 and so on.


That's what I originally thought, but when I looked at the service record on this site, it said the person needed, for example, 300 exp OR skill 30. But I may have read it wrong.

  • 12.08.2007 10:33 AM PDT
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which one is first commander are colonel?

  • 12.08.2007 11:27 AM PDT
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It means that if you reach 300 xp without highest skill 30, you will rank up to grade 3 captain, but if you reach highest skill 30 at and point you will become a... whatever the star is (i should know, since that's what rank i am)

  • 12.08.2007 12:06 PM PDT
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it's one star (something) , two star (commander), then three star (colonel)

  • 12.08.2007 12:06 PM PDT
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very true, well done.

  • 12.08.2007 1:25 PM PDT

Posted by: Quantum Oddity
I am really trying not to complain. I read the whole explaination of the ranking system that was posted and I checked my last 50 team slayer ranked games. After that I find I am more frustrated than ever. Out of 50 team slayer matches I have only lost 4, I am not ranking up and its really starting to anger me. Bungie plz explain why this is happening.
I think two things could be happening here. It's hard for me to determine your history because of how spread out your Team Slayer games are, but perhaps you have an idea. How long did it take you to reach your current level? Did you seem to get there fast or was it a fairly slow journey with a fair number of losses. The longer it takes you the more sure the system becomes and you start to rank slower. This could certainly be part of the puzzle.

The other problem might have to do with this:

Posted By: Ferrex - Source

How? What are you fixing?
First, there is a general matchmaking issue affecting parties of mixed skill levels, which slows (or halts) the progress of players in those parties. This is made worse in large teams, and doubly so in Social playlists were skill levels are not displayed. Top men at Bungie are investigating the cause for this issue (tentatively identified as an unintentionally vigorous guard against boosting exploits that were a problem in Halo 2) and effective fixes for it. All of our playlists will benefit from dialing this in, as soon as we feel good about the changes.


Ferrex (aka Tyson Green) is a multiplayer designer at Bungie and he posted the quote above in the optimatch forum a while back. I noticed over the last 50 games or so you were often in mixed parties. Probably more often then not you were the high rank too. The issue with mixed parties could be causing slower ranking then normal. Also the system doesn't give you as much credit for playing lower ranks. Pairing with lower party members generally means on average you will play lower ranks then yourself which doesn't benefit you as much.

Those are the things most likely effecting you.

  • 12.08.2007 2:13 PM PDT

Reach is hot garbage.

Its sad that a user has to post this instead of an actual Bungie employer. Bungie am fail.

  • 12.08.2007 2:15 PM PDT

Posted by: Jay120171
It never ends does it TwoFaced?
19 pages and going strong :) I'd rather the questions be here though then all over the forums.

  • 12.08.2007 2:20 PM PDT

Posted by: BlueblurONE
Its sad that a user has to post this instead of an actual Bungie employer. Bungie am fail.
All the information comes from Microsoft. There is a publicly available paper on TrueSkill and how it works which is linked by the OP. So a write up really isn't necessary as it's already available. Bungie may have taken a few liberties of there own, but the heart of the system is described in that paper. However, a nudge in the right direction by Bungie may have reduced some of the initial confusion.

[Edited on 12.08.2007 2:27 PM PST]

  • 12.08.2007 2:25 PM PDT
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I know what you mean. I was playing with my friend who just started live and hes a 30 now in 20 games. I was a 25 and am now a 27. Because of my many games played I can't level. It gets frustrating having no room for improvement because if he is a 30 and could easily get 40 soon I should be able to get that high too if I did just as well as him.

  • 12.08.2007 2:44 PM PDT

You have an experience penelty of -104. You get penalized every time you quit (or get disconnected). Basically anytime you don't finish a matchmaking game normally you get a penelty. You've earned 46 experience but after subracting the penelty you have -58. So basically at this point you won't see a rank change until you've won about 60 more games, assuming you don't have any more penelties along the way.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^what twofaced said

yah may be true but i have proof its not workin, get this. i played today in rumble pit with my friend at his house with MY account and won about 6 games. we lost about 2 then won like 7 more. all day we did this and what? i check my stats later, HAS NOT MOVED. not even like -42 or anything higer. check out my profile. i might have not won that many games as i said but won i lost, i came in second and social games move you up it exp. whoever is in first OR second. and it STILL doesnt explain y i have the security shoulders and why other achievements didnt register. i no twofaced has 519 gamerpoints but does he have the shoulders? no he doesnt. but what he DOES have is the basic training achievement which i DONT have, but i have the pin on the game. look at my service record. also provin my point, i dont suk, 46 exp on the first day thatn you very much. reply...

[Edited on 12.08.2007 3:12 PM PST]

  • 12.08.2007 2:55 PM PDT
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Ferrex (aka Tyson Green) is a multiplayer designer at Bungie and he posted the quote above in the optimatch forum a while back. I noticed over the last 50 games or so you were often in mixed parties. Probably more often then not you were the high rank too. The issue with mixed parties could be causing slower ranking then normal. Also the system doesn't give you as much credit for playing lower ranks. Pairing with lower party members generally means on average you will play lower ranks then yourself which doesn't benefit you as much.

Those are the things most likely effecting you.[/quote]
I appreciate the reply and yes sometimes I am playing with lower lvls. On the other hand most of the time Im not, for example for a long time I was playing with 2 38s and a 34 all ranked higher than me.

  • 12.08.2007 3:22 PM PDT
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Thanks for this, it rly helps.

  • 12.08.2007 4:09 PM PDT

Posted by: LAXICE23
You have an experience penelty of -104. You get penalized every time you quit (or get disconnected). Basically anytime you don't finish a matchmaking game normally you get a penelty. You've earned 46 experience but after subracting the penelty you have -58. So basically at this point you won't see a rank change until you've won about 60 more games, assuming you don't have any more penelties along the way.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^what twofaced said

yah may be true but i have proof its not workin, get this. i played today in rumble pit with my friend at his house with MY account and won about 6 games. we lost about 2 then won like 7 more. all day we did this and what? i check my stats later, HAS NOT MOVED. not even like -42 or anything higer. check out my profile. i might have not won that many games as i said but won i lost, i came in second and social games move you up it exp. whoever is in first OR second. and it STILL doesnt explain y i have the security shoulders and why other achievements didnt register. i no twofaced has 519 gamerpoints but does he have the shoulders? no he doesnt. but what he DOES have is the basic training achievement which i DONT have, but i have the pin on the game. look at my service record. also provin my point, i dont suk, 46 exp on the first day thatn you very much. reply...
Everything is working fine. Just crunch the numbers to prove it. You don't need to guess.

I checked your stats at 6:37 PM last night. You had an experience penelty of -104. You now have a penelty of -113 so that's 9 more penelties then the last time I checked. Looking at your games played since then you've played at total of 27 matchmaking games. You should have earned 13 experience during those games. 13 - 9 = 4. So your gain in experience since last night when I checked should be 4. Looking at your experience now you have -54 which is exactly 4 more then -58 which is where it was last night.

The math all checks out. You are getting all the experience you deserve. If you are quiting games then stop. If you are having internet difficulties then try to work them out. There is nothing wrong with your experience.

  • 12.08.2007 5:26 PM PDT
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who cares how they rank it. if your any good at all you will level up just play the game and have fun.

  • 12.08.2007 7:15 PM PDT