Halo 3 Forum
This topic has moved here: Subject: Yea only one problem it dosent work all the time!
  • Subject: Yea only one problem it dosent work all the time!
Subject: Yea only one problem it dosent work all the time!
  • gamertag:
  • user homepage:
  • last post: 01.01.0001 12:00 AM PDT

Joe 325 - Exp is different than Skill. Your skill level is the number by your name 1-50. Experience is awarded one point at a time for each win in a ranked or unranked game. (social) If you leave a game early it gives you that screen asking if you want to be penalized. If you leave you lose 2 exp. If you get Disconnected you also lose XP. And finally if you turn your xbox off in the middle of a game you lose XP.

  • 12.11.2007 7:24 PM PDT
  • gamertag:
  • user homepage:
  • last post: 01.01.0001 12:00 AM PDT

Thanks this has been a very interesting read and definitely shows how many of peoples' ideas are myth regarding the skill system.

I'm not sure if this has been asked but here goes. So i understand everything you've said but i was wondering if anything other than stats in that single playlist matter. For example, will my Team Doubles mu/sigma value affect anything that i do in Team Slayer? Military rank (based purely on exp) seems like it's totally independent of everything you've talked about as it's a concrete +1 per win and not influenced by TruSkill so i assume that has nothing to do with anything.

Finally, do you have any ideas as to how matches are made? Related to my above question, i was wondering how much (if any) influence exp/military rank, and skill levels in other playlists affected matchmaking in one specific list.

edit: my bad - just saw that thurston asked the same thing several posts up but yea, just shows it's a popular question

[Edited on 12.11.2007 7:35 PM PST]

  • 12.11.2007 7:27 PM PDT

Posted by: thurst0n
Not sure if someone has asked this before. But according to your equation it should be impossible to level up after a loss. Why then did my friend. Who I know had a very high sigma. Level from 4 to 5. After playing team doubles with me. I think I was around 40 at the time.

Game 1: http://www.bungie.net/Stats/GameStatsHalo3.aspx?gameid=176038 835&player=Blebbins Win Level 1 - 4
Game 2: http://www.bungie.net/Stats/GameStatsHalo3.aspx?gameid=176044 027&player=Blebbins Loss Level 4 -5
Game 3 http://www.bungie.net/Stats/GameStatsHalo3.aspx?gameid=176049 375&player=Blebbins Loss Stayed Level 5

Maybe I am missing something. We got creamed in game 2 and he still leveled up.

The game before We won and he leveled from 1-4. I just don't see how he could level up after losing according to your method?
The formula given is the formula used to determine your displayed skill level (the one you see next to your gamertag). Your skill level is a conservative estimate of what the system thinks you might be. So the formula is this:

"Displayed skill level" = Mu - K*Sigma

Mu is a number tracked behind the scenes and represents the skill level the system currently thinks you might be at. Remember the displayed skill level is not the same as Mu. The displayed skill level is a conservative representation of Mu and is calculated using the formula above.

Sigma (aka. certainty) is the variation. If you have a Mu = 25 and Sigma = 5 the system believes you are in the range of 20-30.

K is a constant and is assigned by the developer. Microsofts documentation says 3 is often used. The higher the number the more conservative the estimate.

So in a case where Mu = 25 and Sigma = 5 the displayed skill level would be = 25 - 3*5 = 10

If sigma drops the displayed skill level will rise. If Mu drops the display skill level will fall. When you lose a game Mu always goes down, however, if Sigma drops enough from that loss your displayed skill level can actually rise.

Posted by: thurst0n
One other thing. Do I have a differant sigma/mu for each hopper? (TS, TO, Tact, Doubles, Lone Wolves?) Or is my sigma the same for everything.
Every playlist is seperate so you have a different Sigma and Mu for each.

  • 12.11.2007 7:49 PM PDT
Subject: In depth explanation of the Halo 3 skill ranking system.

Hmmm, then why sometimes you can jump 2 levels?

  • 12.11.2007 8:27 PM PDT
  • gamertag:
  • user homepage:
  • last post: 01.01.0001 12:00 AM PDT

Since I've played over 1300 games, and my sigma is probably ridiculously low, is it still possible for me to skip levels? It probably depends on which playlist right?

  • 12.11.2007 9:11 PM PDT
  • gamertag:
  • user homepage:
  • last post: 01.01.0001 12:00 AM PDT

i like how you put that , only proble is i was a 38 and was playing a couple of games last night and i was the lowest ranked person in the game , i came in 4th and lost skill, i then played a swords match and came in 3rd and i was again the lowest skill by at least 4 and i went down another skill point. another problem i had was in team slayer me and some freiends were just having fun playing some game and next thing you know we start playing the same team over and over , that team all had at leat a 43 in other game types we were all around 20 in team slayer , we lost 3 games in a row to them and all of us went down because they won of course . the problem is they should have the individuale skills in each game type , yes of course , but they should have a system worked out to prevent people gettinh higher skills in say lone wolves and then going in as a 1 in team slayer with his friends that are 20's and then he runs the whole game getting 20 kills while they run around and try to hide and camp out or he gets his other lvl 40 friends and gos to town on a bunch of ppl that are not nearly as good. a good example of this is my 9 year old cousin , i started him up a x-box live account just for a month while he stayed with me in NC and i let him play HALO 3 , it was the first time he had ever played it and he was loving it , untill i put him online , he actually was doing really good , untill he lost a couple of games in a row to a group of people and they started talking trash , i looked at their ranks , every one of them again was a lvl 40 or above , and my cousin was a lvl 5. it kinda makes me wish i would have been in the same room as those kids talkin trash to my cousin cause hes only 9 and they were like 17, sure im 23 but i would hurt em just scare em a little using some boot camp tactics if you know what i mean. well enough of my BS im just saying the skill system is ok , it could use some work of course but they definatly need to fix the part where a 45 can go to another game type and be a lvl 1 (im ok with him being a lvl 1 , just make it so he plays ppl that are also higher ranks in other typs of games so its more even for ppl that are 20's across the board)

  • 12.12.2007 7:15 AM PDT
  • gamertag: [none]
  • user homepage:

It is on

I agree it really sucks when you go into a gametype with someone who's highest level is a 40 or 45 and they are level 5 or 6 in another playlist, however this sad event of being unfairly matched sucks, it is un avoidable. The Other day i decided to make a new account. Since i was 38 commander and going no where, i decided to start from scratch, if you can imagine being a level 1 recruit who is really a 38 commander and destroying a group of nubs is probably frustrating to the other people playing, It is most likely that you will not be fairly matched in a multiplayer online match, and by the way a good way to increase your cousins skill is to play him one- on - one in a custom games match or just in a group so he can learn the ways of the Force *Wink*

PEACE

  • 12.12.2007 8:07 AM PDT
  • gamertag: [none]
  • user homepage:

It is on

This is The profile i used other than my 38 commander, look at my K\D Ratio x Sam Adams x

[Edited on 12.12.2007 8:11 AM PST]

  • 12.12.2007 8:09 AM PDT
  • gamertag:
  • user homepage:
  • last post: 01.01.0001 12:00 AM PDT

yea that was a really good post, but just to get this straight. if a new gamertag with all ranked lvls at 1 and an old gamertag with a ranked lvl at around 50 play ina playlist where both gamertags are lvl1 the new guy will lvl up way faster just becuase the old guy played and won alot in the past?

[Edited on 12.12.2007 9:15 AM PST]

  • 12.12.2007 9:14 AM PDT
  • gamertag:
  • user homepage:
  • last post: 01.01.0001 12:00 AM PDT

Great explanation, never truly understood the True Skill system till I read this.
Thanks alot :).

  • 12.12.2007 9:31 AM PDT

Thanks for the info

  • 12.12.2007 11:45 AM PDT

Posted by: AmaToL
yea that was a really good post, but just to get this straight. if a new gamertag with all ranked lvls at 1 and an old gamertag with a ranked lvl at around 50 play ina playlist where both gamertags are lvl1 the new guy will lvl up way faster just becuase the old guy played and won alot in the past?
No. All playlists are seperate. If you have a 50 in Team Slayer but then decide to go play Team Objective (a playlist you are new to) it will be as though you've never played a game before. You'll be treated as a 1 and can level as fast as any other person who's never played a game before.

  • 12.12.2007 12:06 PM PDT

Posted by: Psmo290
Since I've played over 1300 games, and my sigma is probably ridiculously low, is it still possible for me to skip levels? It probably depends on which playlist right?
Every playlist is completly seperate. If you've played 1300 games of Team Slayer and them go into Team Objective it'll be like you've never played a game there.

  • 12.12.2007 12:09 PM PDT
  • gamertag:
  • user homepage:
  • last post: 01.01.0001 12:00 AM PDT

I have read as much of this post as I could so I do sincerely apologize if this question was asked before.

What happens to Mu and Sigma if you quit out/get lagged out of a ranked TS match?
Does it even count as a loss?
Or is the punishment for quitting strictly limited to losing EXP which at this point I can care less about...

Out of the last 50 ranked TS matches I finished completely through without quitting or getting lagged out I won 32 of them, not in a row.
In that time I went from a 46 to a 48. So the theory on ranking up slows down as you get higher is supported. At least in my case anyway.

Excellent post and many props for the research you guys did on this!
If you need a research assistant for in-game data collection, I can help!

  • 12.12.2007 2:46 PM PDT
  • gamertag: [none]
  • user homepage:

True skill sucks. I wish they could bring back the halo 2 system. It was much more accurate.

  • 12.12.2007 5:12 PM PDT
  • gamertag:
  • user homepage:
  • last post: 01.01.0001 12:00 AM PDT

Posted by: USSTRATCOM
I have read as much of this post as I could so I do sincerely apologize if this question was asked before.

What happens to Mu and Sigma if you quit out/get lagged out of a ranked TS match?
Does it even count as a loss?
Or is the punishment for quitting strictly limited to losing EXP which at this point I can care less about...

Out of the last 50 ranked TS matches I finished completely through without quitting or getting lagged out I won 32 of them, not in a row.
In that time I went from a 46 to a 48. So the theory on ranking up slows down as you get higher is supported. At least in my case anyway.

Excellent post and many props for the research you guys did on this!
If you need a research assistant for in-game data collection, I can help!

Leaving matches has no effect on rank, just EXP.

  • 12.12.2007 5:56 PM PDT

I was wondering if anyone could help me understand a conundrum I've found. My friends and I were playing ranked slayer and one of them dropped from the party during the veto countdown. Obviously as a result he never spawned or did anything in that match. However, when he rejoined the group he went up in rank. How does that happen?

edit to add: we won the match without him, and he did not play during the time he was out of the group.

[Edited on 12.12.2007 7:39 PM PST]

  • 12.12.2007 7:38 PM PDT

Just your average Gamer/Musician aspiring to make music for games!

I have a question.

If i play say 15 games and get MVP in 90% in all of them, never go negative, and gets a lot of medals. Shouldnt that mean i should go up in rank? I was using my little brothers one month account to show my friend how to play halo, since he is new. And i would play slayer with him. I would get MVP and avg. about 11-14 kills a game. I got to about a 9 and havent gone up since. This is where the 15 games question comes up. Why havent I leveled up yet? Ive already gotten the experience for a leutienant but not the level.

please answer this.

  • 12.12.2007 10:24 PM PDT

Posted by: TherionMEC
I was wondering if anyone could help me understand a conundrum I've found. My friends and I were playing ranked slayer and one of them dropped from the party during the veto countdown. Obviously as a result he never spawned or did anything in that match. However, when he rejoined the group he went up in rank. How does that happen?

edit to add: we won the match without him, and he did not play during the time he was out of the group.
All members on a team finish the same regardless of how they participated. So even if you quit or get disconnected you'll still get credit for a win if your team wins without you.

  • 12.13.2007 12:07 AM PDT

Posted by: AznInWidescreen
I have a question.

If i play say 15 games and get MVP in 90% in all of them, never go negative, and gets a lot of medals. Shouldnt that mean i should go up in rank? I was using my little brothers one month account to show my friend how to play halo, since he is new. And i would play slayer with him. I would get MVP and avg. about 11-14 kills a game. I got to about a 9 and havent gone up since. This is where the 15 games question comes up. Why havent I leveled up yet? Ive already gotten the experience for a leutienant but not the level.

please answer this.
None of the factors you mentioned are considered in deciding how your level changes. The three factors are:

1) Did you win or lose
2) Your skill level in relation to your opponents
3) Certainty of skill levels for you and your opponents

So the real question is how did your team do in those 15 games. Did you play 15 games as a 9 and not go up? Or did you play 15 games to get to the 9? Could you post the gamertag?

  • 12.13.2007 12:13 AM PDT
  • gamertag:
  • user homepage:
  • last post: 01.01.0001 12:00 AM PDT

Nice

  • 12.13.2007 12:47 AM PDT
Subject: But.....
  • gamertag:
  • user homepage:
  • last post: 01.01.0001 12:00 AM PDT

I havent read all the replies on this thread so forgive me if someone said this, but my friend and I was playing a team slayer and our team lost pretty hard but he leveled up anyway how is that possible? they were even skilled and we all saw it happen!

  • 12.13.2007 5:41 AM PDT

Please excuse me if this has already been asked, 22 pages is quite a lot to wade through, plus i din't want to start a new thread.

My most recent game of TS was 3 on 3 on Construct.
My 2 team members decided to bail out early, leaving just myself against the three opposition.
Now, I am a firm believer of not quitting a game, no matter how much your losing by, so I decided to play out the game and consequently got smashed.

As a result of this highly unamusing game of hide and seek and "lets see who can kill von zipp the most, and lets tea bag him cause he deserves it", I went down in skill level. How does that work? Why is that fair?

Should I have just bailed out and taken the EXP loss? And is this promoting an ideology that if rats are bailing from a sinking ship, you should bail too?

Thanks in advance to your advice/answers.

  • 12.13.2007 6:05 AM PDT

Posted by: Vartsviinet
I havent read all the replies on this thread so forgive me if someone said this, but my friend and I was playing a team slayer and our team lost pretty hard but he leveled up anyway how is that possible? they were even skilled and we all saw it happen!
For an explanantion on how you can lose but go up please look at the third post down (by me) on this page (page 22). Also could you tell me which came it was, just so I could check it out.

[Edited on 12.13.2007 9:48 AM PST]

  • 12.13.2007 9:46 AM PDT

Posted by: von zipp
Please excuse me if this has already been asked, 22 pages is quite a lot to wade through, plus i din't want to start a new thread.

My most recent game of TS was 3 on 3 on Construct.
My 2 team members decided to bail out early, leaving just myself against the three opposition.
Now, I am a firm believer of not quitting a game, no matter how much your losing by, so I decided to play out the game and consequently got smashed.

As a result of this highly unamusing game of hide and seek and "lets see who can kill von zipp the most, and lets tea bag him cause he deserves it", I went down in skill level. How does that work? Why is that fair?

Should I have just bailed out and taken the EXP loss? And is this promoting an ideology that if rats are bailing from a sinking ship, you should bail too?

Thanks in advance to your advice/answers.
Regardless of quiters you lost and thus your skill level was adjusted appropriatly. It was just a conincidence that you happend to go down a level from this loss.

I assume if you won you would expect the game to count as a win. However, you don't seem to feel it should count as a loss. This would be unfair because you would be in a position to win but couldn't lose. Perhaps you just think it shouldn't count at all. Well the problem there is people would abuse that loop hole.

I can be stubborn and stick it out to the end, even if it's just me left. However, quitting in a position like that shouldn't be frowned upon. Everyone involved wanted the game to end. I'm sure you weren't enjoying it and I doubt the other team was either. If you want to stay then stay but you shouldn't feel like a quitter if you leave. There is a big difference between giving up and leaving when you team is down and quitting when you are outnumberd 3-1 and have no chance.

From the 3 person perspective (which I've been on before) I'd rather the last person just quit so we can all get on with our lives and stop wasting time. Being noble and sticking it out doesn't get you anything. If it's over then let it end. On the other hand I've been the last person left and I have stayed. I'm not sure if it has to do with the experience penelty or just the mindset of "I'm not a quitter", but deep down I know I should just leave in that situation.

[Edited on 12.13.2007 10:18 AM PST]

  • 12.13.2007 10:10 AM PDT