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  • Subject: But.....
Subject: But.....
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hey guys, my friends and i made an elephant fly for like 10+ min...take a look, its under my file share as "elephants fly?"...its worth your time!

  • 12.13.2007 11:46 AM PDT
Subject: In depth explanation of the Halo 3 skill ranking system.
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So...how do I get my sigma higher again, so I can level up faster...again.

  • 12.13.2007 2:19 PM PDT

Posted by: I3utteRzZ
So...how do I get my sigma higher again, so I can level up faster...again.
You can't. Sigma is increased slightly before each calculation to prevent it from ever reaching zero. In general though Sigma always goes down after a game. There is no evidence that shows you can do anything to raise your Sigma.

  • 12.13.2007 2:49 PM PDT
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Posted by: TwoFaced1680
Posted by: I3utteRzZ
So...how do I get my sigma higher again, so I can level up faster...again.
You can't. Sigma is increased slightly before each calculation to prevent it from ever reaching zero. In general though Sigma always goes down after a game. There is no evidence that shows you can do anything to raise your Sigma.


If Sigma is simply standard deviation, and you go on a streak that consistantly deviates from your expected performance (lots of variance), wouldn't your sigma naturally increase? I would have thought sigma would only approach 0 if you are performing according to the system's expectations.

Been a few years since I have taken a high levels stats course, but that would be my theory.

  • 12.13.2007 5:30 PM PDT
Subject: But.....

Posted by: TwoFaced1680

Regardless of quiters you lost and thus your skill level was adjusted appropriatly. It was just a conincidence that you happend to go down a level from this loss.

I assume if you won you would expect the game to count as a win. However, you don't seem to feel it should count as a loss. This would be unfair because you would be in a position to win but couldn't lose. Perhaps you just think it shouldn't count at all. Well the problem there is people would abuse that loop hole.

I can be stubborn and stick it out to the end, even if it's just me left. However, quitting in a position like that shouldn't be frowned upon. Everyone involved wanted the game to end. I'm sure you weren't enjoying it and I doubt the other team was either. If you want to stay then stay but you shouldn't feel like a quitter if you leave. There is a big difference between giving up and leaving when you team is down and quitting when you are outnumberd 3-1 and have no chance.

From the 3 person perspective (which I've been on before) I'd rather the last person just quit so we can all get on with our lives and stop wasting time. Being noble and sticking it out doesn't get you anything. If it's over then let it end. On the other hand I've been the last person left and I have stayed. I'm not sure if it has to do with the experience penelty or just the mindset of "I'm not a quitter", but deep down I know I should just leave in that situation.


Thanks TwoFaced for your response. It does make sense.
I guess I was a bit dark that this could happen when I wrote this post. Cheers for clearing it up.

  • 12.13.2007 7:22 PM PDT
Subject: In depth explanation of the Halo 3 skill ranking system.
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ok so i have a quick question that i cant quite get from the info given me and my friend both have a 33 in team doubles my highest skill is 40 in lone wolves and his is 33 in doubles so we start playing and ever 1-2 games we win he goes up 1 skill level while it takes me 3-5 games to go up one skill level yet i have looked and we have about the same Mu and Sigma from my understanding does anyone know what the heck is going on?

  • 12.13.2007 7:55 PM PDT

Just your average Gamer/Musician aspiring to make music for games!

None of the factors you mentioned are considered in deciding how your level changes. The three factors are:

1) Did you win or lose
2) Your skill level in relation to your opponents
3) Certainty of skill levels for you and your opponents

So the real question is how did your team do in those 15 games. Did you play 15 games as a 9 and not go up? Or did you play 15 games to get to the 9? Could you post the gamertag?


Yea, my team won 95% of all our games and im still a 9. The gamertag is ImBlueDabadee .

just look at the game history, the 15 games in slayer start from : 12/3/2007 8:52:52 PM and end at 12/6/2007 9:00:04 PM. Its even more than 15. just look at where i placed, and you determine if i should have at least gone up once out of all those games.

actually, ive won 57 out of 64 games. since i played with that account.

I placed from 3rd to 1st in most of the games . 4th is ususally if its snipers.but still, look at all the games and tell me i should be higher in rank.

i pretty much played about half the total games to get to my 9 but the rest did not rank me up in any way, shape, or form.

[Edited on 12.13.2007 8:38 PM PST]

  • 12.13.2007 8:35 PM PDT
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I love halo3 Matchmaking.

Ive won like 6+ teamslayer games in a row now, every game I win I will go up one level but if the team comes second, Im not sure how many games i have to win in a row to get a level every win, Ill find out sure enough :P

EDIT: Also if you have a party it makes it harder to gain levels! Bungie said it somewhere

[Edited on 12.13.2007 8:57 PM PST]

  • 12.13.2007 8:55 PM PDT

Posted by: AznInWidescreen
None of the factors you mentioned are considered in deciding how your level changes. The three factors are:

1) Did you win or lose
2) Your skill level in relation to your opponents
3) Certainty of skill levels for you and your opponents

So the real question is how did your team do in those 15 games. Did you play 15 games as a 9 and not go up? Or did you play 15 games to get to the 9? Could you post the gamertag?


Yea, my team won 95% of all our games and im still a 9. The gamertag is ImBlueDabadee .

just look at the game history, the 15 games in slayer start from : 12/3/2007 8:52:52 PM and end at 12/6/2007 9:00:04 PM. Its even more than 15. just look at where i placed, and you determine if i should have at least gone up once out of all those games.

actually, ive won 57 out of 64 games. since i played with that account.

I placed from 3rd to 1st in most of the games . 4th is ususally if its snipers.but still, look at all the games and tell me i should be higher in rank.

i pretty much played about half the total games to get to my 9 but the rest did not rank me up in any way, shape, or form.
That's what I thought. I figured you won almost all your games I just wanted to make sure. This is a known issue. Winning a very high percentage of games will cause you to level very slowly. It's a glitch that Bungie is working on fixing. Some teams have won 150+ games and not gotten past level 15. Until the issue is resolved you only have a few work arounds.

1) You can lose games on purpose. This should help eleviate the issue.

2) Play with a much higher rank. I'd suggest limiting the party to two people. I don't know if this works but I've seen some evidence that it might help. It's worth a shot.

3) Play by yourself. I think this will only help if you lose some games, but this way you might not have to throw any intentionally. Of course if you are too good you might win all the time anyway and I dont' think this would help.

That's all I can think of. It's an unfortunate glitch but they are aware of it and are working on fixing it. I assume the fix would be applied with the first major update so it might be another month or so.

  • 12.13.2007 10:37 PM PDT

Posted by: Aircrime
ok so i have a quick question that i cant quite get from the info given me and my friend both have a 33 in team doubles my highest skill is 40 in lone wolves and his is 33 in doubles so we start playing and ever 1-2 games we win he goes up 1 skill level while it takes me 3-5 games to go up one skill level yet i have looked and we have about the same Mu and Sigma from my understanding does anyone know what the heck is going on?
Mu is your skill level, but it's not the one you see. The one you see is a conservative representation of Mu and is calculated using Mu - K * Sigma. Once Sigma drops far enough your displayed skill level should be close to the same as Mu. However, you can't really know exactly what you and your friends Mu really are. Sigma generally goes down after each game. So the more games you play the smaller it gets. Again there is no way to know what the value really is. Unless you play every game together your Mu and Sigma values are going to be different. Obviously in your friends case the current values allow him to level quicker then you. If you both continue to play together you will eventually both reach the same level. It might just take you longer.

  • 12.13.2007 11:12 PM PDT

Posted by: Baaaaaaaaaaaaah
Posted by: TwoFaced1680
Posted by: I3utteRzZ
So...how do I get my sigma higher again, so I can level up faster...again.
You can't. Sigma is increased slightly before each calculation to prevent it from ever reaching zero. In general though Sigma always goes down after a game. There is no evidence that shows you can do anything to raise your Sigma.


If Sigma is simply standard deviation, and you go on a streak that consistantly deviates from your expected performance (lots of variance), wouldn't your sigma naturally increase? I would have thought sigma would only approach 0 if you are performing according to the system's expectations.

Been a few years since I have taken a high levels stats course, but that would be my theory.
I can't really explain the math behind it, but think of it this way. After each game something is learned about you. Depending on who you played and what the system knows about them will determine just how much can be learned from that one game. Every game you play gives the system a bit more information and allows the system to zero in on your true skill. Thus uncertainty (Sigma) has to go down after each game. In theory once Sigma has dropped very low you should trully be at your skill level and prolonged win streaks shouldn't be possible. However, players skills do change and it's possible you've improved and can suddenly win all your games. In that case the system would increase your skill level over time, but it will take a while to "convince it" to move you.

  • 12.13.2007 11:30 PM PDT
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Posted by: TwoFaced1680
Posted by: Baaaaaaaaaaaaah
Posted by: TwoFaced1680
Posted by: I3utteRzZ
So...how do I get my sigma higher again, so I can level up faster...again.
You can't. Sigma is increased slightly before each calculation to prevent it from ever reaching zero. In general though Sigma always goes down after a game. There is no evidence that shows you can do anything to raise your Sigma.


If Sigma is simply standard deviation, and you go on a streak that consistantly deviates from your expected performance (lots of variance), wouldn't your sigma naturally increase? I would have thought sigma would only approach 0 if you are performing according to the system's expectations.

Been a few years since I have taken a high levels stats course, but that would be my theory.
I can't really explain the math behind it, but think of it this way. After each game something is learned about you. Depending on who you played and what the system knows about them will determine just how much can be learned from that one game. Every game you play gives the system a bit more information and allows the system to zero in on your true skill. Thus uncertainty (Sigma) has to go down after each game. In theory once Sigma has dropped very low you should trully be at your skill level and prolonged win streaks shouldn't be possible. However, players skills do change and it's possible you've improved and can suddenly win all your games. In that case the system would increase your skill level over time, but it will take a while to "convince it" to move you.


I absolutely understand that....but I think sigma increases when your "skill" changes, because there is now variation around the expected mean. A larage streak would signify a skill change...so I suspect MU and sigma would go up in that case.

  • 12.14.2007 12:05 AM PDT
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all i can say is......figure out a new system!!!...i got from a 35 to 26 because of bull-blam!- ass players ranked the same as me but no where near as good i get first on my team every time and still loose EVERY game...its like our team 20ft under water...im trying to swim to the surface to get air but i have 3 -blam!-s grabbing my legs bringing me down w/ them and we all die ....there is NO way i can get my level up cause i never have a good team...i even avoid the -blam!-iest of -blam!- player and what do you know im stuck w/ them again next game.. wow 2 games in a row even after i avoided them what are the -blam!- odds this is really ruining the game for me becuase i can't play w/ people my own skill lvl

[Edited on 12.14.2007 12:43 AM PST]

  • 12.14.2007 12:41 AM PDT

dan what yo uwant is never gonna happen, there not goint to rank you up in a TEAM game when just you do good. Find other people to play with if you wanna do TS or just do lone wolf.

  • 12.14.2007 1:28 AM PDT
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ha ha yeah i know i was venting some anger im just sick of getting stuck w/ losers...i feel like a win the lottery when i win a game

  • 12.14.2007 1:49 AM PDT

Praise be the lord, my rock, who readies my hands for war, and my fingers for battle.

I know it's been said. but good work on the OP as well as all the additions from the other contributors.

Guess I just have to play more and play better.

  • 12.14.2007 3:45 AM PDT

etc etc/glaringly obvious/and so on, and such <=Not redundant!
Posted by: Cr4ne Style
Taxes do nothing to affect the share of wealth, since taxes are only applied to income.

So that's not even a part of the conversation at all, so it's pointless talking about it....

"for a "best" moral to exist, there must exist the "best" moral base. If the base of morality varies from location to location, culture to culture...then there can't be an absolute moral..

Posted by: DanThaMan2786
all i can say is......figure out a new system!!!...i got from a 35 to 26 because of bull-blam!- ass players ranked the same as me but no where near as good i get first on my team every time and still loose EVERY game...its like our team 20ft under water...im trying to swim to the surface to get air but i have 3 -blam!-s grabbing my legs bringing me down w/ them and we all die ....there is NO way i can get my level up cause i never have a good team...i even avoid the -blam!-iest of -blam!- player and what do you know im stuck w/ them again next game.. wow 2 games in a row even after i avoided them what are the -blam!- odds this is really ruining the game for me becuase i can't play w/ people my own skill lvl


thank you for sharing your frustration with us, but, your post indicates how the rank system is working well. if you are losing many games with and against players with similar ranks, then you should rank down.

it sounds like you have little reason to be upset with the ranking system. you may wish to play in a party with friends if you find that you are being matched with stinky players.

  • 12.14.2007 6:25 AM PDT
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Posted by: Rankith117
dan what yo uwant is never gonna happen, there not goint to rank you up in a TEAM game when just you do good. Find other people to play with if you wanna do TS or just do lone wolf.


This is not entirely true. Last night both myself and one of my teammates both increased a skill level on different games that we lost. On the game that each one of us was on the loosing team but leveled up, our performance in that game was far above anyone on the other team. So while it it not common to level up in a loss, it is indeed possible.

  • 12.14.2007 7:40 AM PDT

Posted by: CVScorp
This is not entirely true. Last night both myself and one of my teammates both increased a skill level on different games that we lost. On the game that each one of us was on the loosing team but leveled up, our performance in that game was far above anyone on the other team. So while it it not common to level up in a loss, it is indeed possible.
Yes but it's not because of your individual performance in the game or being rewarded even though you lost. It may seem that way but it isn't. What happened was your sigma dropped (as it does the more you play) and even though you lost mu (skill) your displayed skill went up.

A very simplified example of how this can happen:
"Displayed Skill" = Mu - (K * Sigma)

Before loss:
7 = 25 - (3 x 6)

After loss:
9 = 24 - (3 x 5)

You can see your Mu dropped from 25 to 24 because of the loss. You can also see your sigma dropped from 6 to 5 because as you play more games it comes down. So you can see, you lost Mu but your displayed skill level increased from 7 to 9. Again, this is very simplified with nice round numbers just for an example.

  • 12.14.2007 7:53 AM PDT
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Yes, fortunately I understand it all. I was just pointing out to the other poster that said you can't level up if you loose that he wasn't entirely correct.

  • 12.14.2007 8:18 AM PDT
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they way that team slayer is ranked just makes no sense...ill win 8 games in a row gettin first everytime..wont go up even a leve...then.i lose one...and i still place first on my team...and i go down 1 rank...bungie?....are you guys slow?

  • 12.14.2007 8:35 AM PDT
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Ok, I made a new account and played a ton of lone wolves game and here are the stats of my lone wolf activity. This is so we mght better understand halo 3's leveling system.

My Game History

I disregarded in game stats because supposedly they have no affect on leveling but I'd guess 90 - 95% of my wins were by at least 10-15 kills over the person in second.

these are my lone wolf stats ONLY.

I'm a level 23

66 games played.

60 1st place finishes.

91% of my games were 1st place finishes.

4 second place finishes.
1 3rd place finish.
1 4th place finish.

longest 1st place win streak of 18.

here is a detailed time line of all lone wolf games played from 1st to 66th and what games i leveled up on.


1 - 18 [1st place. 18 streak]
level 3 after game 1
level 4 after game 2
level 5 after game 4
level 6 after game 5
level 7 after game 7
level 8 after game 9
level 9 after game 10
level 10 after game 14

19 [2nd place]

20 - 26 [1st place. 7 streak]
level 11 after game 21
level 12 after game 25
level 13 after game 26

27 [2nd place]

28 - 36 [1st place. 9 streak]
level 14 after game 28
level 17 after game 34

37 [4th place]

38 [3rd place]

39 - 54 [1st place. 16 streak]
level 18 after game 39
level 19 after game 47
level 21 after game 48
level 22 after game 49

55 [4th place]

56 - 57 [1st place. 2 streak]

58 [2nd place]

59 - 66 [1st place. 8 streak]
level 23 after game 60


idk if anything of value can be derived from this. But it might be worth a try.




[Edited on 12.14.2007 1:49 PM PST]

  • 12.14.2007 1:46 PM PDT

Join the Spartan I Project for any help on achievements! We're a great bunch of people willing to help you get that 1750 gamerscore.

I have a question. I have a skill of 14, and EXP of 63, so why am I not a lieutenant? Do I have to do all the gunnery sergeant ranks before I can become an officer?

  • 12.14.2007 3:52 PM PDT
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Don't lose...

  • 12.14.2007 7:45 PM PDT

Men, we've led these dumb bugs out to the middle of nowhere to keep from getting their filthy claws on earth, but, we stumbled on to something that's so hot for them, that they're scrambling over each other to get it. Well, I don't care if it's God's own anti-son-of-a-b*tch machine, or a giant hola-hoop, we ain't gonna let them have it. What we will let them have, is a belly full of lead, and a pool of their own blood to drown in!

Good theory on the ranking system; however it doesn't disprove the fact that the ranking system is the single most disappointing characteristic of Halo 3. Here's an idea for a system, are you ready to handle some LOGIC, Bungie?
X (wins) - Y (Loses) = Rank
That just happened.

  • 12.14.2007 8:56 PM PDT