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  • Subject: In depth explanation of the Halo 3 skill ranking system.
Subject: In depth explanation of the Halo 3 skill ranking system.
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Posted by: TwoFaced1680
No data about the game is used aside from the knowledge that your team won or lost. Margin of victory or any other stat isn't considered. Microsoft's paper mentions this so we know that for sure.

The factors for updating your skill level are:

1) Did you win or lose
2) Mu and Sigma values of those involved


Thankyou, all I really needed to know about the system since what I read from the OP. Keep up the great work on this thread.

[Edited on 12.18.2007 10:25 AM PST]

  • 12.18.2007 9:56 AM PDT
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alright if all this is true then why when me and my buddies started our new account and won 40 games out of 40 with 37 steaks, all in team slayer, and we still have a 12 in it

  • 12.18.2007 10:25 AM PDT
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nice job but skill system suck!

  • 12.18.2007 10:29 AM PDT

Teams that ONLY play together have issues
(A team of four who have only played as a team of 4 and never with anyone else)


Could this be explained any further, I don't fully understand why you would be handicapped because you play with the same team in a team based playlist?

  • 12.18.2007 11:39 AM PDT

Posted by: STR Ghost
alright if all this is true then why when me and my buddies started our new account and won 40 games out of 40 with 37 steaks, all in team slayer, and we still have a 12 in it
This is an issue with the current system and Bungie is working on fixing it. It has to do with match quality. When you win as much as you have you end up getting stuck in poorly matched games. Think of a professional baseball team playing a highschool baseball team. Obviously the professional team is expected to win. There is no way to know if the professional team should be higher ranked based on that win. That's what's happening to you. You get stuck in games that the system can't learn much from, so you level very slowly.

Sorry to say at the moment there aren't a ton of options to fix this on your own. You can try the following:

1) Lose some of your games
2) Play by yourself for a while (this helps mostly because you'll probably lose a few games)
3) Party up with a much higher level. I'd suggest keeping the party size to 2 or 3 to minimize any problems with mixed parties.

  • 12.18.2007 11:58 AM PDT

Posted by: skeeve85
Teams that ONLY play together have issues
(A team of four who have only played as a team of 4 and never with anyone else)


Could this be explained any further, I don't fully understand why you would be handicapped because you play with the same team in a team based playlist?
It's not really that you are handicapped although the end result is the same. Bungie has stated this is an issue and they are working to correct it although it is also a flaw in the system.

MS explained it like this so here it goes from memory because I just don't feel like searching for it right now. Think of it as having a pile of four rocks (Team A) being weighed against (playing) another pile of four rocks (Team B). You can tell which pile is heavier but you can't tell how heavy each rock is. If you only weigh those four rocks together (Team A) and never weigh them individually, you'll never know which rock is the heaviest. If players only play together, the system cannot tell how skillful they are and it effectively does not have enough points of data to calculate their skill. That is a very basic explanation so if you want the mathematical reasons you should visit the MS page linked in the OP.

  • 12.18.2007 12:27 PM PDT

Posted by: Jay120171
Posted by: skeeve85
Teams that ONLY play together have issues
(A team of four who have only played as a team of 4 and never with anyone else)


Could this be explained any further, I don't fully understand why you would be handicapped because you play with the same team in a team based playlist?
It's not really that you are handicapped although the end result is the same. Bungie has stated this is an issue and they are working to correct it although it is also a flaw in the system.

MS explained it like this so here it goes from memory because I just don't feel like searching for it right now. Think of it as having a pile of four rocks (Team A) being weighed against (playing) another pile of four rocks (Team B). You can tell which pile is heavier but you can't tell how heavy each rock is. If you only weigh those four rocks together (Team A) and never weigh them individually, you'll never know which rock is the heaviest. If players only play together, the system cannot tell how skillful they are and it effectively does not have enough points of data to calculate their skill. That is a very basic explanation so if you want the mathematical reasons you should visit the MS page linked in the OP.
Jay120171,

Are you sure Bungie has made any statements about this issue? I haven't read any statements by them about this and I can't imagine there is a fix. The problem exists because individual skills are measured based on the games outcome and not on their performance during that game. Because of this the individuals in groups who only play together can never be seperated. The only fix is to force people to play seperatly (doubt that would ever happen) or to actually use individual performances in the skill update equation (again I doubt that'll happen).

  • 12.18.2007 12:59 PM PDT

Posted by: TwoFaced1680
Jay120171,

Are you sure Bungie has made any statements about this issue? I haven't read any statements by them about this and I can't imagine there is a fix. The problem exists because individual skills are measured based on the games outcome and not on their performance during that game. Because of this the individuals in groups who only play together can never be seperated. The only fix is to force people to play seperatly (doubt that would ever happen) or to actually use individual performances in the skill update equation (again I doubt that'll happen).
I tried searching for the thread where there was a discussion about the team that only played together and were stuck at 14. I wish you could search a particular forum or even sort it by date. Anyway, I could be wrong but I thought there was an official response in that thread. If I am wrong, let me know so I can edit my post to eliminate any further confusion. Maybe you remember it but I have to run and didn't want to leave you hanging over night.

  • 12.18.2007 1:23 PM PDT
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yes an official errr "update" on what they plan to do....do tell if u see it

for my dream team we won 28 straight games and got a whopping 3 points

and then to really balance out everytime we lose we lose a point....o_O

if there is an official response plz post a link or sumthing

  • 12.18.2007 1:48 PM PDT

Posted by: Jay120171
Posted by: TwoFaced1680
Jay120171,

Are you sure Bungie has made any statements about this issue? I haven't read any statements by them about this and I can't imagine there is a fix. The problem exists because individual skills are measured based on the games outcome and not on their performance during that game. Because of this the individuals in groups who only play together can never be seperated. The only fix is to force people to play seperatly (doubt that would ever happen) or to actually use individual performances in the skill update equation (again I doubt that'll happen).
I tried searching for the thread where there was a discussion about the team that only played together and were stuck at 14. I wish you could search a particular forum or even sort it by date. Anyway, I could be wrong but I thought there was an official response in that thread. If I am wrong, let me know so I can edit my post to eliminate any further confusion. Maybe you remember it but I have to run and didn't want to leave you hanging over night.
Ya, I wish the search features were a little more robust too. Was it the vD0 team? Here is a link to the thread. This is what Lukems posted in that thread:

"Issues like Anti Jalox and the vD0 guys are issues we're looking into and at how we can address them. In rare cases, players that the system thinks are "good" are getting matched in matches that are producing "low match quality" -- this isn't quality related to player or system performance, but rather in the system's assessment of how reasonable the match is for assessing skill -- Mixed Party scenarios are often "low match quality" to prevent boosting. Like I said, we're looking at addressing it, we're sorry for the inconvenience and we're sorry. "My interpretation of this is that in certain cases the system isn't matching players in games where skill can properly be assessed. It's this issue bungie is looking into. I believe the problem effects mixed parties as well as teams (or individuals) who win a large % of there games. A full team is just more likely to run into this problem and they are working on fixing it. However, the issue with the TrueSkill system in determining individual skill levels for players that always play together is a seperate issue.



[Edited on 12.18.2007 2:20 PM PST]

  • 12.18.2007 2:13 PM PDT

Sometimes when I look at the moon at night, my mind embraces the thought of a love so vivid and true that I almost believe it is real. Then, due to my delusions, I am forced back into reality and begin to indulge myself in real life vices such as chocolates and German board games to get that once natural high.

In other words, spawn by power weapons, use power weapons, camp, beat the kids that can own you with every weapons with power weapons, etc....
Makes perfect sense........

  • 12.18.2007 2:31 PM PDT
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can u get stuck at a rank no matter how many loses or wins u have?
cus i have played close to 50 games at level 47 and have yet to go up or down

  • 12.18.2007 5:40 PM PDT
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Maybe you can direct me to the post where MS explains everything about the ranking system. I only seem to see an explanation from someone who works for neither Bungie nor MS trying to explain what they THINK the system is. I admire the effort, but it obviates the point. I don't want to nor have I "jumped 2 skills with each win" I want the system to be fair and to take into consideration a few minor variables when ranking a player - like - I don't know - achievements? K/D?

If the ranking system is going to suck (and I don't think that's an unfair assessment given the 90% of the TWENTY SIX pages of this post are complaints about it), scrap it. I don't need to keep score, but if you're going to offer the feature, base it on some competitive metrics and not some BS black box that forces ppl not affiliated with either partner to TRY to explain it.

  • 12.18.2007 6:10 PM PDT

Posted by: jakebeatyou
can u get stuck at a rank no matter how many loses or wins u have?
cus i have played close to 50 games at level 47 and have yet to go up or down
No, you can't get stuck. After a while it may take longer to rank up or down but it will always be able to move you. That doesn't mean you will move though. If you are at your level in theory you could play there forever and not move up or down. I glanced at your games for the last 3 pages and in team slayer it appears you win about half your games. So the fact you haven't moved up or down is not a surprise.

  • 12.18.2007 7:42 PM PDT
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Posted by: TwoFaced1680
Posted by: jakebeatyou
can u get stuck at a rank no matter how many loses or wins u have?
cus i have played close to 50 games at level 47 and have yet to go up or down

No, you can't get stuck. After a while it may take longer to rank up or down but it will always be able to move you. That doesn't mean you will move though. If you are at your level in theory you could play there forever and not move up or down. I glanced at your games for the last 3 pages and in team slayer it appears you win about half your games. So the fact you haven't moved up or down is not a surprise.


Yes, when I wonder about why I'm "stuck" somewhere, I then go calculate my win/loss percentages and see if my record for my past 50 games is something close to 25/25. If its exceeding 30 wins and has less than 20 losses, then I'll scratch my head a bit and wonder if there were rankups anywhere in those past games, I'll also consider what games I was matched in. If I was consistently playing against teams where my team's skill exceeded 4 points higher than my oppositions in total, then I know I was expected to win those games and my wins weren't valued as substantial. Or at least not as substantial as those where I played against significant opponents (not to question my opponent's skill, just the outcome when compared with the levels in the parties).

  • 12.18.2007 8:21 PM PDT

Posted by: MightyLophan
Maybe you can direct me to the post where MS explains everything about the ranking system. I only seem to see an explanation from someone who works for neither Bungie nor MS trying to explain what they THINK the system is. I admire the effort, but it obviates the point.
The official source of the information was linked by the OP. Here is another link. Feel free to check it out and learn from the source. There is no black box here.


Posted by: MightyLophan
I don't want to nor have I "jumped 2 skills with each win" I want the system to be fair and to take into consideration a few minor variables when ranking a player - like - I don't know - achievements? K/D?
Personally I don't think using individual statistics such as K/D will really make the system much better, but it will make it more difficult to implement and debug. Just what makes a good player good? Please try defining it and take into account different gametypes. It might be more complicated then you think.


Posted by: MightyLophan
If the ranking system is going to suck (and I don't think that's an unfair assessment given the 90% of the TWENTY SIX pages of this post are complaints about it), scrap it. I don't need to keep score, but if you're going to offer the feature, base it on some competitive metrics and not some BS black box that forces ppl not affiliated with either partner to TRY to explain it.
You don't need to base your opinion on made up information. "90% of the TWENTY SIX pages of this post are complaints". Give me a break. I've posted a lot in this thread and a large number of posts people make are simple questions (not complaints) and thank yous. Many of the real complaints stem from issues with the current system that are being fixed and not because of problems with the system as a whole. Those issues by the way aren't actual problems with the TrueSkill system, but problems with Bungie's implementation. However, I can understand why you would scrap the system all together instead of just fixing a few issues (note the sarcasm).

Try to base your opinion off your own experience and not what others might be saying. The skill system is not to "keep score". It's to match players of approximatly equal skill. Does it work for you in that regard? That's the only question you need to be asking yourself. Looking at your stats I see nothing to complain about. The system seems to be working just fine for you. So what problems do you have with the current system. In what way has it failed you? If you think it sucks then there must be an issue.

[Edited on 12.18.2007 8:46 PM PST]

  • 12.18.2007 8:40 PM PDT
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Posted by: Jay120171

Yes there is a sticky on the H3 forum that will explain what's going on to you but I checked your games out anyway. Probably the main thing that is slowing you down is the fact you have not won much more than you've lost. I checked TS games only and you are 48W-31L. The system cranked you up pretty fast at first and then you started losing and winning in equal amounts around level 7. Once you start winning and losing in equal amounts, the system thinks that's the level you should be (lowered sigma). If you would have won consistently more than you lost, your sigma would have stayed higher making moving up in skill faster. You can get by with losing one here and there and still move up fast but if you are only winning 60% of your games, it will take you significantly longer.

The other issue that may have slowed you down is playing in a mixed skill party. This is a problem with the system where people with large skill differences are very slow to move up. You played most of your games with friend(s) 5 to 10 skill levels higher than you. This issues is something that Bungie is looking in to but until there is a resolution, don't expect to go up much when playing with friends high above or far below your skill level.


Thanks for taking the time to have a look, it is much appreciated but am now, post your research, convinced that its not so much the fact that i lost some games around lvl 7 and therefore suffered from lower sigma but my grievance is to do with the mixed party issue. It became quite apparent within a few games of not playing in a mixed party i could lvl up alot quicker. Playing less games and winning a much smaller percentage boosted me more than when in the mixed party e.g. Monday 17th played 14/ Won 12/ Win % 85/ranked up 11-12

Its a shame you can't play with your friends anymore, regardless of rank, and still all be successfull in ranking up. I hope this gets fixed as its a defining feature of why the Halo matchmaking process was so good in my opinion. Thanks again, you are a true credit to the community.

  • 12.19.2007 1:06 AM PDT
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look at gamertag z niloc z Team Objective playlist

79 games played in Team Objective, every game Place = 1st and still a only a 14! Ever since about level 8 or 9 is when it just started to crawl. Most of the games played have been in a party of 4 (approx. 95% of the time), and everyone in the party is around the same rank (no mixed parties). If your wondering, the reason I only have 78XP is cause it gets very boring during some of these games and well enough betrayls and...


[Edited on 12.19.2007 2:19 AM PST]

  • 12.19.2007 1:47 AM PDT
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This is really a great help thanks!

  • 12.19.2007 2:22 AM PDT
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Posted by: koolin
look at gamertag z niloc z Team Objective playlist

79 games played in Team Objective, every game Place = 1st and still a only a 14! Ever since about level 8 or 9 is when it just started to crawl. Most of the games played have been in a party of 4 (approx. 95% of the time), and everyone in the party is around the same rank (no mixed parties). If your wondering, the reason I only have 78XP is cause it gets very boring during some of these games and well enough betrayls and...


Is this a case of the same team only ever playing together?
As previously mentioned in this thread, there appears to be an issue with teams that only ever play with each other. I am just recalling from memory but basically as you have not played apart the system can't judge you apart i.e. it hasn't got enough relevant playing data to adjust your rank accurately and fairly. The guys answering questions on this post are doing a grand job but this issue and the mixed parties problem surely deserve an official response dont they? If this has happened then please point me in the right direction.

[Edited on 12.19.2007 3:38 AM PST]

  • 12.19.2007 3:12 AM PDT
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k so this still doesnt explain y i havent levelled up to a 49...

im a 48 in doubles

ive been playin recently and had a 12 game winning streak against similar levels (around 44-48) then i lost one, then i went on another 8 game winning streak (again against similar levels), and then lost one, after that for about 20 or so games i joined games by myself and won about 15 out of 20 games, mind you there werent any game "sprees" (id win 2, then lose 1, then win 1, then lose 1 for instance). Then after that my buddy came online who is a 46 and we won 10 straight against similar levels, sadly, im still a 48, and havent moved...

any suggestions?
can someone explain to me y im not levellin up? i did read the post, but its not like im being very inconsistant with my winning and losing.

BTW my gamertag is II TiemenZ II its not linked to my profile, so feel free to take a look at my games and hopefully figure out what im doing wrong to not level up

[Edited on 12.19.2007 3:53 AM PST]

  • 12.19.2007 3:50 AM PDT

Posted by: TwoFaced1680
Posted by: Jay120171
Posted by: TwoFaced1680
Jay120171,

Are you sure Bungie has made any statements about this issue? I haven't read any statements by them about this and I can't imagine there is a fix. The problem exists because individual skills are measured based on the games outcome and not on their performance during that game. Because of this the individuals in groups who only play together can never be seperated. The only fix is to force people to play seperatly (doubt that would ever happen) or to actually use individual performances in the skill update equation (again I doubt that'll happen).
I tried searching for the thread where there was a discussion about the team that only played together and were stuck at 14. I wish you could search a particular forum or even sort it by date. Anyway, I could be wrong but I thought there was an official response in that thread. If I am wrong, let me know so I can edit my post to eliminate any further confusion. Maybe you remember it but I have to run and didn't want to leave you hanging over night.
Ya, I wish the search features were a little more robust too. Was it the vD0 team? Here is a link to the thread. This is what Lukems posted in that thread:

"Issues like Anti Jalox and the vD0 guys are issues we're looking into and at how we can address them. In rare cases, players that the system thinks are "good" are getting matched in matches that are producing "low match quality" -- this isn't quality related to player or system performance, but rather in the system's assessment of how reasonable the match is for assessing skill -- Mixed Party scenarios are often "low match quality" to prevent boosting. Like I said, we're looking at addressing it, we're sorry for the inconvenience and we're sorry. "My interpretation of this is that in certain cases the system isn't matching players in games where skill can properly be assessed. It's this issue bungie is looking into. I believe the problem effects mixed parties as well as teams (or individuals) who win a large % of there games. A full team is just more likely to run into this problem and they are working on fixing it. However, the issue with the TrueSkill system in determining individual skill levels for players that always play together is a seperate issue.

That's the one, thanks. I probably read more in to what Luke was saying but I took it as they were looking at ways to not only find a resolution to teams/players who win a large % and don't go up but also to teams that only play together. He wasn't really specific about it and at the time, I took it to mean they were trying to figure something out for both issues. In both cases, they are playing low quality matches because they are not going up no matter how many games they play. There is a reason they are getting these types of matches time and time again and that is the part I have never really been able to figure out.

  • 12.19.2007 5:34 AM PDT
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Let's face it - it's far from perfect or you wouldn't have so many people complaining.

THIS IS NOT STAR TREK so you ain't perfect - haha!

I don't mean to brag, I don't mean to boast, but I'm intercontinental when I eat french toast.

  • 12.19.2007 7:37 AM PDT
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O.K. so i think i have a decent understanding of how the ranking system works. mainly it focuses on wins versus losses. however last night i went on a 7 game winning streak on team slayer with the same group the whole time. i had wins before i joined the group as well as some losses however i had more wins. (percentage wise i forget) now in the 7 games i was a lvl 14 and the people i was playing with were 11's, and 10. i specifically recall winnig 7 games against people who had higher ranks than ours. after 7 games our ranks did not go up. we then on the 8th game played people significantly higher level and they beat us. we all then proceeded to drop one rank. i believe i understand the sensitivity of the sigma but not maybe as well as i thought. how after 7 games nothing changes and 1 loss drops us? was the sigma hurting us more than helping us because we were so consistent in winning? im trying to better understand how 7 games equals no change and 1 game can have such an impact. also,(and forgive my ignorance here on the subject) what the heck is it with people quiting and then i drop because its 4 against 2 or even 4 against 1! what is the best way to protect my rank in that situation if i know i will loose. should i quit? because i thought it would be better to stay in the game yet i lower in rank when i loose and am significantly outnumbered. am i to understand there is no calcuation for this? and if so there should be. i guess what im asking in the second question is should i quit? or should i stay?

  • 12.19.2007 8:19 AM PDT
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That was very informative. I'm a little sketchy on some details but overall I think I get the system. Thanks for the great post.

  • 12.19.2007 8:42 AM PDT