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  • Subject: In depth explanation of the Halo 3 skill ranking system.
Subject: In depth explanation of the Halo 3 skill ranking system.
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Posted by: Jay120171
I looked at your games and I couldn't find a streak of 21 wins WITHOUT you gaining a level. Anyway, your K/D ratio or any in-game stat is not used by the system. You played in a party with vastly different skill levels - up to 20 apart. It will take significantly longer for you to gain skill when playing in a party like this. Play with people around you same skill level and you will go up if you continue to win.


You are right.. which is why this ranking system is silly.. at least for Team slayer..
win/lose is a pretty stupid way of ranking an individual in a FPS game.. especially with 'teams' of people. where one person could be taking a crap the entire game, and still be thought of by the system as being as good as the 3 people that beat the other 4 people.

IT in no way determines how good YOU are.. Sigma, Mu, cupcakes, whatever it uses to determine so called 'skill'.. at least not in TS. Not if mixed parties kills your ability to rank up. Not if the system punishes you for playing with friends who have more time to play than you do..

  • 12.28.2007 8:57 AM PDT
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Someone asked this question in another thread and I was curious....

Posted by: iUntouchablez
By the way would turning on the "close skill" filter raise your chances of ranking up because every round you only find people close to your skill?

  • 12.28.2007 9:10 AM PDT

Posted by: TresNips
Someone asked this question in another thread and I was curious....

Posted by: iUntouchablez
By the way would turning on the "close skill" filter raise your chances of ranking up because every round you only find people close to your skill?
Maybe, maybe not. Turning it on would lower your chances of playing against much lower skills than you but also much higher. The games against higher skilled opponents are the ones you want and win.

  • 12.28.2007 10:31 AM PDT

Posted by: ReCLaIM
Posted by: Jay120171
I looked at your games and I couldn't find a streak of 21 wins WITHOUT you gaining a level. Anyway, your K/D ratio or any in-game stat is not used by the system. You played in a party with vastly different skill levels - up to 20 apart. It will take significantly longer for you to gain skill when playing in a party like this. Play with people around you same skill level and you will go up if you continue to win.


You are right.. which is why this ranking system is silly.. at least for Team slayer..
win/lose is a pretty stupid way of ranking an individual in a FPS game.. especially with 'teams' of people. where one person could be taking a crap the entire game, and still be thought of by the system as being as good as the 3 people that beat the other 4 people.

IT in no way determines how good YOU are.. Sigma, Mu, cupcakes, whatever it uses to determine so called 'skill'.. at least not in TS. Not if mixed parties kills your ability to rank up. Not if the system punishes you for playing with friends who have more time to play than you do..
Ranking based on individual performance vs team performance is debatable and much of it has been covered in this thread. If you want to be ranked according to individual performance, play LW. If you play a team game, you will be judged according to your team outcome. It makes sense to me but I can see why some would not think so. A win or loss factored by the skill of your opponents is what is used in a very simplified description. It's the same basic principal that was used in H2. And no, in one game the system can't determine how good YOU are but in 100-200 games it can.

  • 12.28.2007 10:41 AM PDT

Posted by: Sexbox
Posted by: M4sterChief
hehe. now that I've read this I can tell my friends to stfu and quit whining when they "win 30 games in a row and don't rank up" because it gets extremely annoying after hearing it about 1000 times (that's only a slight exaggeration people)
I'll just tell them to read this thread, because this helped me make sense of how people's ranks can go up or down at a certain rate.
Yeah they should quit whining because they are being punished for consistently winning games and can only cure their nonranking up by purposely losing games. That makes sense!

You're a moron.
Yea, there are a few cases of teams not leveling up when they ONLY play with each other. There are also a few cases of individuals not leveling up when they never lose. These are the exceptions and not the rule. Most people don't level up because they are only beating opponents of lower skill than them and losing against the higher skilled ones. They rush up to level 20 or 30 in a small amount of games, begin to lose and win equally and wonder why they are stuck. Anyway, you know all this already.

  • 12.28.2007 10:50 AM PDT
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great post ty

  • 12.28.2007 11:46 AM PDT
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aw thanks this helped alot so ill just keep winning with my mixed party for about 50 games until i finally see a turn around.

  • 12.28.2007 1:10 PM PDT
Subject: halo clan
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yes

  • 12.28.2007 2:30 PM PDT
Subject: In depth explanation of the Halo 3 skill ranking system.

Posted by: Jay120171
Posted by: Silentium Nexx
thanks for writing this i have a question though. I have played most of my ranked games in Team Slayer , i got to a level 37 with my friends. Then i had a 5 game losing streak playing against lower levels who obviously were better than there level. I dropped to a 33. I got back up to a 35 with my friends. He was 37 when i was 33, and now im a 34 and hes a 41 and we played the same games, so wtf? I am the only one in my group never to go up, so what do i do?
You all will not go up or down at the same rate considering you have not all played only together and are not all the same skill levels. If the system is more sure about your skill compared to his, he will go up and down quicker. Just keep playing and winning against equal or higher skilled people and your skill will go up.






What about everybody who started at the same skill level and only 1 or 2 people rank up. What about the other 2 with the same game wins. Why aren`t they ranking up. Get real...

[Edited on 12.28.2007 8:24 PM PST]

  • 12.28.2007 8:05 PM PDT

Posted by: billg367
What about everybody who started at the same skill level and only 1 or 2 people rank up. What about the other 2 with the same game wins. Why aren`t they ranking up. Get real...
Who and what are you referring to? This is the second post of your that I don't understand. If you don't like the system, that's fine. If you have a problem with it, that's fine too. Your post on the previous page said lies, lies, lies and now this post has vague references and says get real. Are you speaking directly to me? Point me to examples of what you claim so I can look at them. The point of this topic is to explain the system used and contains everything known about it. If you have info on something that's wrong in here, please share it.

  • 12.29.2007 7:11 AM PDT
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If you can read you will know what he is saying. He said that if a full party is all the same level, why some 1 or 2 of them rank up while the others don't even though they one the same games.

Whats funny is that this happened once in my party except one person went down a level when we won.

[Edited on 12.29.2007 9:09 AM PST]

  • 12.29.2007 9:07 AM PDT

Posted by: REPX
If you can read you will know what he is saying. He said that if a full party is all the same level, why some 1 or 2 of them rank up while the others don't even though they one the same games.

Whats funny is that this happened once in my party except one person went down a level when we won.
If you would have read my previous post where I explained why this happens you might have understood why I asked him for more info. Just because 2 people are level 25's doesn't mean they will go up at the same time. If one has played 50 games and one has played 500, they will move at different speeds. The system evaluates more than just your numbered skill level when figuring your new skill level after a win. It uses the mu and sigma of the opposition and calculates your new mu and sigma to get your displayed skill.

Also, going down after a win has been explained so RTFA if you want to know why. All these question have been asked and answered by me and others many times in this thread. He and you come in here and ask the same questions again and I don't say, "If you can read you would know why". So, don't be an ass and give me the whole "If you can read" crap. I asked for examples, or at least more info, you repeating what he said doesn't help anything. Mmmmmmk?

  • 12.29.2007 9:55 AM PDT
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ya i totally agree and why isnt it based on how well you do..... like what if you are doing mad good but your team sucks and you lose the game... your rank will go down but you did really good.

  • 12.29.2007 10:41 AM PDT

Posted by: Jay120171
Posted by: REPX
If you can read you will know what he is saying. He said that if a full party is all the same level, why some 1 or 2 of them rank up while the others don't even though they one the same games.

Whats funny is that this happened once in my party except one person went down a level when we won.
If you would have read my previous post where I explained why this happens you might have understood why I asked him for more info. Just because 2 people are level 25's doesn't mean they will go up at the same time. If one has played 50 games and one has played 500, they will move at different speeds. The system evaluates more than just your numbered skill level when figuring your new skill level after a win. It uses the mu and sigma of the opposition and calculates your new mu and sigma to get your displayed skill.
Also, going down after a win has been explained so RTFA if you want to know why. All these question have been asked and answered by me and others many times in this thread. He and you come in here and ask the same questions again and I don't say, "If you can read you would know why". So, don't be an ass and give me the whole "If you can read" crap. I asked for examples, or at least more info, you repeating what he said doesn't help anything. Mmmmmmk?






And what speed is that? Which one ranks faster the one with 50 games or 500 games. What win lose ratio are we talking about? So then a new player with a 39-26 record goes from 12 to 30 in TS. And 2 other players on the same team who start with 16 and stay at 16 at the end of this run. That is normal your saying this is all good and this phony system works. If you really believe that I have a bridge in Brooklyn I want to sell you real cheap.

Have you noticed there are hundreds of players who are grade 3 & 4 LT`s Cpt`s and Majors. Who for the same reason is blocked from ranking up. This nonsense on these pages is just that, its all LIES. Bungie has the have and have not system. What is stopping people who win from ranking up. The anti boosting cheating or modding software they put in this. Everybody knows they don`t care anymore about boosting and the modding and lets not forget about those modded controllers.That seems to be everywhere now a days. Cheating? They are doing nothing about that either. In fact I state large amount of the people who made it to 50 are cheaters. Proof of that is when ever anybody posts anything about it they get flamed by them just to keep all the so called complainers off the forums. I`ve sent to bungie many halo 3 modding sites with the modders gametags and they did nothing with it. Because they like it the way it is or microsoft is not letting them do anything about it. These cheaters are not the cause of everyone`s problems with this broken ranking system. The system itself is the problem.

Instead of answering this problem themselves they put someone else up and feed us this dribble about mu or whatever. So they are not accountable for the fact whatever bull system they have here is broken. And I don`t understand why people defend the undefendable. Any baseball or hockey club with a 39-26 record would be doing great but not in bungieland. GET REAL

[Edited on 12.29.2007 6:27 PM PST]

  • 12.29.2007 3:00 PM PDT

Posted by: billg367
And what speed is that? Which one ranks faster the one with 50 games or 500 games.
If you would have read the first post you would know the more you play (more games) the slower you will move up and down. SO, the player with 50 games in a playlist will move faster than a person with 500 games in a playlist.

What win lose ratio are we talking about? So then a new player with a 39-26 record goes from 12 to 30 in TS. And 2 other players on the same team who start with 16 and stay at 16 at the end of this run. That is normal your saying this is all good and this phony system works. If you really believe that I have a bridge in Brooklyn I want to sell you real cheap. I know you don't understand it. I know you don't like it. I know you think it's BS. I can't say if it's normal or not because you haven't told me one GT I can look up to see what happened. I've asked him and I've asked you. If you won against lower skilled opponents more than you won against higher skilled opponents, you won't go up much if you've played 500 games.What do you want? To go up for losing, to go up after each win, to win 60% of your games and be a 50, do you want to go up for winning against lower skilled opponents?

Have you noticed there are hundreds of players who are grade 3&4 LT`s Cpt`s and Majors. Who for the same reason is blocked from ranking up. No, I haven't noticed hundreds of players being "blocked" from leveling up. There have been some people who are running in to unexplainable issues like being stuck at level 14 or 15. Bungie stated they are aware of this and are working on fixing it but this specifically refers to a team that only played together and never with anyone else. I've also see people slow to go up who win a lot of their games. They get consistently matched against lower skilled people and can not get enough "credit" to move up "quickly".

This nonsense on these pages are just that, its all LIES. Bungie has the have and have not system. Instead of answering this problem themselves they put someone else up and feed us this dribble about mu or whatever. So they are not accountable for the fact whatever bull system they have here is broken. And I don`t understand why people defend the undefendable. Any baseball or hockey club with a 39-26 record would be doing great but not in bungieland. GET REALThis thread is filled with people upset and explanations. I really don't know what you think are lies. Come on dude, the have and the have not system?!?! Bungie has commented on the system and certain issues with the system. Those comments are scattered throughout this thread. The people in this thread who have taken the time to research the system and understand it are not Bungie puppets. I can't speak for anyone else but when I played H3 on launch and leveled up 35 on my first serious session, I wondered how come it was so EASY to level up. I then came here, researched it, saw this post one day and decided to stick around it and help. I am not here defending Bungie, just helping the community. I mean damn, take 10 minutes and read the first post instead of just repeating what you've heard, what you think, or blathering about what you want. Saying the whole thing is broken is a very simplistic way to look at it. My heater is out in my car but I still drive it. It doesn't mean my car is broke, it means I freeze my ass off but I can still get to work.

This ain't hockey and it ain't baseball. Saying a H3 Team Slayer record of 39 & 26 is good makes me laugh - a lot. TrueSkill is used by Xbox Live. Most games with MM and/or leaderboards use it and Bungie uses it. MS developed it by taking H2 MM data and figuring out ways to cure the inaccuracies. I think this system is better, so what. You think it's crap, so what. The purpose of this thread is just to help people. If you want to cry and get mad at me, go for it if it makes you feel better but it won't help and may only make you look like an ass.

  • 12.29.2007 6:32 PM PDT

If you would have read the first post you would know the more you play (more games) the slower you will move up and down. SO, the player with 50 games in a playlist will move faster than a person with 500 games in a playlist.



I read it first. The problem with your statement it shouldn`t make a difference how many games you play you should be even with everyone at that rank you earned. Move up slower up and down. Wrong in this case they won 5 in a row rank up one. Lose one or two rank down one. You go down faster than you go up. These guys went up only one after a series of great game wins by them. Then go down one after losing one or two very close games.










What win lose ratio are we talking about? So then a new player with a 39-26 record goes from 12 to 30 in TS. And 2 other players on the same team who start with 16 and stay at 16 at the end of this run. That is normal your saying this is all good and this phony system works. If you really believe that I have a bridge in Brooklyn I want to sell you real cheap.[/quote] I know you don't understand it. I know you don't like it. I know you think it's BS. I can't say if it's normal or not because you haven't told me one GT I can look up to see what happened. I've asked him and I've asked you. If you won against lower skilled opponents more than you won against higher skilled opponents, you won't go up much if you've played 500 games.What do you want? To go up for losing, to go up after each win, to win 60% of your games and be a 50, do you want to go up for winning against lower skilled opponents?




Who sets up matchmaking play list? And if the system is not matching you properly whose fault is that? Of course you assume all these games were against lower ranks. Wrong again. So you saying everyone who has played a lot of games will be penalize. People who are trying to work within this system. So they are better off doing this with a different game tag and xbox. And its 13 games over .500 that’s .750 not 60%










No, I haven't noticed hundreds of players being "blocked" from leveling up. There have been some people who are running in to unexplainable issues like being stuck at level 14 or 15. Bungie stated they are aware of this and are working on fixing it but this specifically refers to a team that only played together and never with anyone else. I've also see people slow to go up who win a lot of their games. They get consistently matched against lower skilled people and can not get enough "credit" to move up "quickly".





Thank you for bring that up "unexplainable issues like being stuck at level 14 or 15" and to date they have done NOTHING to fix that issue I checked. How many more of unexplainable issues are there??? Didn`t bungie state in the beginning they wanted people to team up with their friends. Now you will be penalize for doing that too?? You can`t get enough of credit if this system is broken and doesn`t properly do the matchmaking. When I stopped playing two months ago I was at 20. I was the highest rank in all those games on my team and was always matched against 30`s and 40`s what was wrong with the system then. When I won I didn`t rank up....





Like I said I have read it and it doesn`t make sense in the real world game play. I am not repeating anyone else stories read my past posts. I`m trying to get bungie to fix this thing for everyone. Almost all my friends refuse to play this game until it’s fixed. Their new maps aren`t selling because a lot of people are fed up. Trueskill is a lie. Just because they trademark it doesn`t mean it works. As I stated before they altered it from the H2 version adding software that’s hurting others fair play. Stop ignoring the facts because you didn`t run into the same problems as thousands of others have. Or are all of those people who have complain about these issues just full of it. When there is smoke there is fire. Are you saying there is no fire here or did I write all those posts on this thread.....


I didn`t lower myself attacking you. But, if you believe this nonsense bungie has fed you or worse you’re trying to interpret this crap yourself without any facts from bungie. Then who is the ass here. Sports are very important to the majority of male Americans. In fact just about everyone who ever played all the halos consider this game a sport. So fair play is very important within this game.


[Edited on 12.29.2007 9:08 PM PST]

  • 12.29.2007 8:50 PM PDT

OK billg367, I am done debating about it. I realize you don't like the system and think it's broken. It doesn't matter how it's explained to you, you will still think it's broken. It works how it is supposed to work for the majority of people. There are 2 known issues and they are working on it but there has been no official announcement and they are not affecting YOU anyway. If you don't like how it works, start a thread and try to get enough support to get Bungie's attention. You refuse to accept the explanations I've given you and call me wrong but yet you wont give me the GT's to check it out.

You said you stopped playing because you couldn't level up. I looked at your games and I think you want to go up for every win and only go down for every other loss. You want to go up regardless of the skill of the players you beat. You never really stated what you want, only that it's broken and we are lying. You call it mumbo jumbo that we made up, we have no facts and that we are trying to interpret it yet all the info we've used is linked in the first post. The facts are there, you just have to click the link and read. You tell me I am ignoring the facts yet you have provided no facts.

The 60% I used was just an example. If you want to get technical, a 39-26 record is 66%, not 75%. The 13 game difference is a third of 39, not a quarter.

  • 12.30.2007 8:00 AM PDT
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good post. answers lots of questions my friend and i had concerning leveling up. thnx great post.

  • 12.30.2007 9:40 AM PDT
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If the system is trying to keep the better players playing the better people then why is it at night my dub team partner and I get matched up with the same 2 kids that're just terrible and don't even play when we're in the game anymore.


So what you're all trying to say is... Bungie is punishing the better players because we're better and we get winning streaks? Nice work Bung. There's a reason there are 4 difficulties on Campaign. If you're terrible play them. You shouldn't punish people that're good at the game because there are people that are terrible and it's not "fair" to them. Go back to the old Halo 2 ranking system and quit the retarded setup. I'd rather it be you have to win X ammount of games in a row to lvl up and if you lose one you delevel. When Halo 2 came out it took something called TALENT to be a high lvl. Why would you ruin that for those of us that were actually good and now you get people like me that get pissed off when you lose 10 games out a 62 and you don't go up a single level and nor does your Doubles partner. GENIUS IDEA BUNGIE. Keep us in double team so everyone else losses games and goes down instead of us winning them and going up to 50's so we can quit. I didn't realize from a 48 that it took 60+ games to level ONCE. I've been a 47 since I was a Gunnery Sergeant(If you think I'm lying go to my game history and go to page 13 and the 1st double team game played view it.), and now I'm a 48 at a Major and it took me 200exp to get to a 48???

I understand the system and it's a nice post, I'm just saying the system is trash the way they set it up and it needs to be changed if they plan on keeping people that're good at the game. You can say I'm whinning and that's fine because for those that say it's whinning obviously haven't been through it which obviously ='s you being one of the players that bungie feels this system is "Helping" because you're not good enough to keep up.

  • 12.30.2007 12:23 PM PDT

Posted by: Jay120171
OK billg367, I am done debating about it. I realize you don't like the system and think it's broken. It doesn't matter how it's explained to you, you will still think it's broken. It works how it is supposed to work for the majority of people. There are 2 known issues and they are working on it but there has been no official announcement and they are not affecting YOU anyway. If you don't like how it works, start a thread and try to get enough support to get Bungie's attention. You refuse to accept the explanations I've given you and call me wrong but yet you wont give me the GT's to check it out.

You said you stopped playing because you couldn't level up. I looked at your games and I think you want to go up for every win and only go down for every other loss. You want to go up regardless of the skill of the players you beat. You never really stated what you want, only that it's broken and we are lying. You call it mumbo jumbo that we made up, we have no facts and that we are trying to interpret it yet all the info we've used is linked in the first post. The facts are there, you just have to click the link and read. You tell me I am ignoring the facts yet you have provided no facts.

The 60% I used was just an example. If you want to get technical, a 39-26 record is 66%, not 75%. The 13 game difference is a third of 39, not a quarter.



Again this is not personal I know you want to help people I never said anybody who was trying to explain the first post was lying. You trying to make sense of a bad situation. If you read all the posts of the people this not working for maybe you`ll understand the answer to this is not that cut and dry as you may think. What worked for you and a lot of other people is not working for everybody. I am trying to help people who are being unfairly held back.

As far as me if I shoot somebody with a BR 3 times in the head and I get the score I want the same for that player too. I am looking for fairness. Yes I had plenty of bad games and I rank down also I want the same for my wins to rank up. That is not happening for me and thousands of other players. When you win 6 games in a row don`t rank up then lose game 7 and rank down then there is something seriously wrong here. Facts are there you don`t want to see them. Because you believe there is nothing wrong here...........











[Edited on 12.30.2007 5:56 PM PST]

  • 12.30.2007 4:22 PM PDT
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Nice job man!

I'm not sure that I understand how to raise my skill level though. Like right now I'm at the point of going up to the next rating by either getting 150 EXP or getting a skill of 10. So, how do I raise my skill level; right now it's at a 1....? The only think I can think of is that so far I have only played social matches...no ranked ones. What's the difference between those?

Thank you!

  • 12.30.2007 6:25 PM PDT
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30 pages later... just wanted to say THANKS! I have been extremely frustrated with the "system" but that was because I didn't have a complete understanding of how it worked. I also found a link about Trueskill that helped as well. http://research.microsoft.com/mlp/apg/Details.aspx


Posted by: Takin You Down S
Nice job man!

I'm not sure that I understand how to raise my skill level though. Like right now I'm at the point of going up to the next rating by either getting 150 EXP or getting a skill of 10. So, how do I raise my skill level; right now it's at a 1....? The only think I can think of is that so far I have only played social matches...no ranked ones. What's the difference between those?

Thank you!


Taken You Down S... play more ranked to gain skill AND experience.

Ranked: Any players on the winning team gain experience and may advance their skill level, while those on the losing team do not gain experience and may level down.

Social (aka Unranked): Games do not effect experience points/ranks, and you can be put together in a game with any player. These game types disregard rank.

[Edited on 12.30.2007 10:20 PM PST]

  • 12.30.2007 10:18 PM PDT
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Posted by: Baaaaaaaaaaaaah
It's not a flaw in the system for you to get matched with colonels and brigadiers. Fact is they neeed a way to rank up in a playlist as well, and that means by beating you and me. They should not have to fight level 40-50's from rank 1 all the way up.

It seems odd you are winning 80% of games and ranking down (I didn't look at your history). One problem could be the match quality (which is one of the greatest weaknesses of Bungie's system...but they are working on it). The other possibility is you are simply not winning 80% of your games. In general, you should be ranking up if you are winning 80%, as matchmaking quality should be on average ok. Go look at your win/loss record for recent games. I find that whenever I think I am winning 80% of my games, when I actually go to audit it, its more like 60%.


Yeah, I agree with you that Colonels/Brigadiers shouldn't have to play ranks way higher than them all the time. That wouldn't make sense. However, the thing I find annoying is that upon losing against a brigadier or general which must be expected(as I was a major at the time), I lost rank in the same way as if I had played a captain of the same gametype rank.
I was in fact winning 80% of my matches (I checked my history) but I think the solution must have been that my standard deviation was quite low. More recently, I have ranked up much more quickly winning a similar percentage of matches.

  • 12.31.2007 8:24 AM PDT
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Posted by: pinkmist ripper
Posted by: Baaaaaaaaaaaaah
It's not a flaw in the system for you to get matched with colonels and brigadiers. Fact is they neeed a way to rank up in a playlist as well, and that means by beating you and me. They should not have to fight level 40-50's from rank 1 all the way up.

It seems odd you are winning 80% of games and ranking down (I didn't look at your history). One problem could be the match quality (which is one of the greatest weaknesses of Bungie's system...but they are working on it). The other possibility is you are simply not winning 80% of your games. In general, you should be ranking up if you are winning 80%, as matchmaking quality should be on average ok. Go look at your win/loss record for recent games. I find that whenever I think I am winning 80% of my games, when I actually go to audit it, its more like 60%.


Yeah, I agree with you that Colonels/Brigadiers shouldn't have to play ranks way higher than them all the time. That wouldn't make sense. However, the thing I find annoying is that upon losing against a brigadier or general which must be expected(as I was a major at the time), I lost rank in the same way as if I had played a captain of the same gametype rank.
I was in fact winning 80% of my matches (I checked my history) but I think the solution must have been that my standard deviation was quite low. More recently, I have ranked up much more quickly winning a similar percentage of matches.


You arent necessarily expected to lose to the Colonels/Brigadiers. It is only their rank within that playlist that the system compares against.

Yeah your sigma will be very low at this stage. I have the same problem in TS...I need to win a good 8 or so to move a rank now. Not that 8 is a solid #, but on average thats what it takes.

Best advice ever: Don't practice Halo 3 using ranked matches...you will be penalized forever.

  • 12.31.2007 9:22 AM PDT