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  • Subject: In depth explanation of the Halo 3 skill ranking system.
Subject: In depth explanation of the Halo 3 skill ranking system.
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ok so i have now won 46 ranked team slayer games in a row and i am somehow only a 14 and in the duration of that streak i have only moved up from a 10 to a 14 also nobody on my team has moved up far either in that streak we havent even had a game where the other team scored more than 30 or so on us. It's starting to get ridiculous at this point. Not only is it unfair that we dont move up but its also unfair to the teams we play because we shouldnt be ranked low enough to be able to play them. Here is a link to my game history below... any informative explanation as to why we cant move up? anyone?

http://www.bungie.net/stats/PlayerStatsHalo3.aspx?player=Dwig t%20F%20Schrute

[Edited on 01.09.2008 9:10 PM PST]

  • 01.09.2008 8:20 PM PDT
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you are playing with the same people who have the same sigma so you wont go up because you guys are all too close to each other play with another party and youll go up.

Also I have a question. Ive played a LOT of team slayer matches but i took my last 50 games right. I have won 70 percent of them. 35 wins 15 losses. I have not ranked from a 48 to a 49. Why is this so?


  • 01.09.2008 9:22 PM PDT
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I was playing with dwight and I have now won 58-60 matches and only moved from a 16-26. I won 51 in a row and when I lost the 1st game after that I dropped to a 25. I am disgusted.

  • 01.09.2008 10:49 PM PDT
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just lost my first game after winning 51 in a row and i only moved up from a 10-17 in that span and i dropped to a 16... this is absolute garbage... this ranking system is worse than the BCS rankings in college football

  • 01.09.2008 11:18 PM PDT

the system works fine for what it's intended to be like, maybe you don't agree with it, i sure don't, but it does work the way it's suppose to.

  • 01.10.2008 2:39 AM PDT
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RIP- ACE (Drew) 1984-2005

Posted by: xIcarus187x
the system works fine for what it's intended to be like, maybe you don't agree with it, i sure don't, but it does work the way it's suppose to.


So... your saying Bungie intentionally made a flawed system. Well that sounds smart. Bungie broke with MS cause they forced TrueSkill down their throats. Bungie knew it didnt work right but they had no choice as all 360 titles "must" use that system. For Halo3 its basically one more flaw that prevents it from being the greatest shooter ever.

On a side note, "working as intended" ... are you kidding me? Unlucky players such as myself and many others work hard so that we win... and only to be rewarded with losing 2 levels after amassing 50 wins in a row... yeah great system.

[Edited on 01.10.2008 6:16 AM PST]

  • 01.10.2008 6:14 AM PDT

Posted by: _Akira
Posted by: xIcarus187x
the system works fine for what it's intended to be like, maybe you don't agree with it, i sure don't, but it does work the way it's suppose to.


So... your saying Bungie intentionally made a flawed system. Well that sounds smart. Bungie broke with MS cause they forced TrueSkill down their throats. Bungie knew it didnt work right but they had no choice as all 360 titles "must" use that system. For Halo3 its basically one more flaw that prevents it from being the greatest shooter ever.

On a side note, "working as intended" ... are you kidding me? Unlucky players such as myself and many others work hard so that we win... and only to be rewarded with losing 2 levels after amassing 50 wins in a row... yeah great system.
If you want to give me your GT I will check it out for you. I looked on your linked GT and the only significant streak I saw was in Rumble Pit and that was because, well you know, plus it's not ranked. You did have a nice run in TS a while back but you leveled up without issue.

Also, you think TrueSkill was why Bungie and MS split? You start out saying Bungie made a flawed system and then go on to say MS made Bungie use it. Doesn't make much sense.

  • 01.10.2008 7:03 AM PDT
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jay can you check my ts out?

  • 01.10.2008 6:22 PM PDT

Yeah, I guess you could say I play competitavely. (=

Some of the things the OP said aren't exactly valid. I'm assuming he is getting this information by studying the true skill system but he must not be doing the math right or something. He says the system doesn't take into account K/D ratio when your trying to rank up which I think is false and I have no doubt in my mind that it is. I was playing team doubles and I had won 15 games in a row but I was going negative almost every game and I wouldn't rank up even though I had won 15 games in row. Then I lost about 4 games in row and I was surprised I didn't go down. Then I started playing again the next day and I won about 4 games in row going +5 - +10 each game and I went up. I remember some one else saying that your K/D ratio is something that effects how fast you rank up. That person said he figured that out by doing the math to see how the system works. I read this a long time ago on this forum so I don't recall who it is. The system is very complicated and probably requires college level math skills to fully understand. I've also noticed that if you go positive and you lose the game you don't seem to go down as fast but when you get like -10 your bound to go down that game or the next one if you lose that next game. It actually seems to be common knowledge through out the people in the higher levels that K/D does have an effect on how fast you will rank up or rank down. I don't blaim the OP for making some mistakes assuming hes not a mathematician. I'm just surprised this thread has been stickied seeing how theres some flaws in what he has posted about how the system actually works. It seems to be mostly correct though.

  • 01.11.2008 3:46 AM PDT

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Ok I have a question my curent highest skill is forty yet I am still a captain second grade (and I keep being awarded ranks I have already gained such as spartian oficer and the like).
Is this just the system being slow ?
or is there something else I must do to gain new ranks?

  • 01.11.2008 5:25 AM PDT

Posted by: Gmoney127127
jay can you check my ts out?
I am assuming you are making a push for 50. You've played a lot of TS games from what I've seen so it is going to take a number of wins to get it. I did see you played a few with a level 14. Keep in mind having him in your party won't give you much credit for those wins. The main thing to remember is to play with people about your same level if you party up. You will need to beat teams of equal or better skill to go up. One loss to a team with a lower average skill can hurt a lot and in most cases drop you a level. The system expects you to win against lower skilled teams and when you lose, it hurts. It also expects you to win against lower skilled teams so when you do, it doesn't really help much. So it is possible to go on long winning streaks and not go up because you just can't get a match with higher skilled opponents. This is one of the main problems for people who have played a lot of games and are in the 47-50 range.

[Edited on 01.11.2008 6:38 AM PST]

  • 01.11.2008 6:05 AM PDT

Posted by: Viprium
Some of the things the OP said aren't exactly valid. I'm assuming he is getting this information by studying the true skill system but he must not be doing the math right or something. He says the system doesn't take into account K/D ratio when your trying to rank up which I think is false and I have no doubt in my mind that it is. I was playing team doubles and I had won 15 games in a row but I was going negative almost every game and I wouldn't rank up even though I had won 15 games in row. Then I lost about 4 games in row and I was surprised I didn't go down. Then I started playing again the next day and I won about 4 games in row going +5 - +10 each game and I went up. I remember some one else saying that your K/D ratio is something that effects how fast you rank up. That person said he figured that out by doing the math to see how the system works. I read this a long time ago on this forum so I don't recall who it is. The system is very complicated and probably requires college level math skills to fully understand. I've also noticed that if you go positive and you lose the game you don't seem to go down as fast but when you get like -10 your bound to go down that game or the next one if you lose that next game. It actually seems to be common knowledge through out the people in the higher levels that K/D does have an effect on how fast you will rank up or rank down. I don't blaim the OP for making some mistakes assuming hes not a mathematician. I'm just surprised this thread has been stickied seeing how theres some flaws in what he has posted about how the system actually works. It seems to be mostly correct though.
The math really isn't all that complicated. There are only 4 variables used to determine your skill level. The equation used to make updates to your skill are complicated but it still only uses 4 variables.

Displayed Skill (Conservative Skill Estimate)
Mu (Skill Level)
K (Conservativeness Factor set by Developer)
Sigma (Amount of Uncertainty)

As you can see, there is no variable in the system for headshots, K/D ratio, ability to win with idiot teammates or any other things you can think of to represent a good player.

The equation used to show your skill looks like this: Displayed Skill = Mu - K * Sigma

Pretty much all of the info contained in this thread comes from the MS pages on TrueSkill. Bungie employees have commented on a few aspects but they have stated they will not reveal exactly how it works to limit manipulation attempts. There are quite a few people in this thread that have looked at a ton of people's games and have seen the same basic theme to most of the questions and complaints. I even emailed the developers of TrueSkill and asked them about winning/losing streaks and they stated it is currently not used in the update equations but they are working on it.

Anyway here is a quote that was gleaned from the MS pages. They use the symbols μ for Mu and σ for Sigma.
The TrueSkill ranking system will base its update of μ and σ on the game outcome (relative ranking of all teams) only; it merely assumes that the outcome is due to some unobserved performance that varies around the skill of a player. If one is playing a point based game and the winner beats all the other players by a factor of ten, that player’s victory will be scored no differently than if they had only won by a single point. Every match provides the system with more information about each player’s skill belief, usually driving σ down. It states that winning and losing is the only thing that matters and not how much you win by. We know from looking at the equations used to update your skill that you must beat higher skilled players to go up. You could play 30 games and if you happened to get matched up against lower skilled players, you will not go up. You could lose 30 games and if you happen to get matched up with higher skilled players, you won't go down. I am not trying to take anything away from your personal experiences but after investigating numerous reports like this it is always the same. You won against lower skills and didn't go up. You lost against higher skills and didn't go down.

Anyway, here is the link to the MS pages on TrueSkill one more time.

  • 01.11.2008 6:36 AM PDT
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Posted by: Nefasus
Ok I have a question my curent highest skill is forty yet I am still a captain second grade (and I keep being awarded ranks I have already gained such as spartian oficer and the like).
Is this just the system being slow ?
or is there something else I must do to gain new ranks?

To answer your question, in addition to having the required number of highest skill point, you also need to have enough experience points.
To rank up to major, you need 30 highest skill point and 200 experience points.

  • 01.11.2008 4:01 PM PDT

Our blood will forge a thousand generations.
Honor light your way.

Good post really enlightening.

  • 01.11.2008 6:54 PM PDT
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I find it hard to rank up :(

  • 01.11.2008 9:02 PM PDT
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1) i make new account on halo 3
2)i have a perfection recored 25-0
3)all team slayer games
4)only level 5
5)ranking system is GARBAGE!

  • 01.11.2008 9:37 PM PDT
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just got my 49 while going in with just me and my friend whos 50 and winning thanks for the tip jay.

  • 01.11.2008 9:52 PM PDT
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the ranking system still sucks

  • 01.12.2008 2:03 AM PDT
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Okay, well, this ranking system sucks bad.
Why?
Because I've made exactly 35 games (Double Team), me and my partner have won all of them.
And I am just level 17, that's ridiculous!

  • 01.12.2008 10:02 AM PDT
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hi i have been playing alot of ranked matches and winning them and most of the time i am either the top player in my team, the mvp, i have at least one of the top medals, and every game i play my kd spread is always a positive number never a negative number, but i still usually get exp instead of highest skill. My name is killer199586 be free to look at my profile and see for yourself. please respond to this because i think i really do deserve more highest skill than 12. thank you

  • 01.12.2008 1:10 PM PDT
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Trueskill blows. I played 19 games. I lost two of them. One was the first game, and another loss was in the middle. But other than that, we won about 17 games. In the end, I am still the same rank I started off with, a 37. And fact of the matter is, I've played a lot of 50s and some of them are complete garbage, and yet they have 50s. It doesn't make sense.

  • 01.12.2008 2:27 PM PDT
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i agree

  • 01.12.2008 2:37 PM PDT

Okay look, I joined these forums in 2004 or so. I almost NEVER post here though. I do however post at mlgpro a lot cause I've been a moderator there for almost 3 years now (and I know pretty much any and all there is to know about Halo CE). I know that probably makes pretty much no difference at all in my argument here, but I hope it may give me a tiny bit more validity. The trueskill system is genuinely terrible. You have no idea how much I laughed when I read some of the replies in this thread when objections were brought up about how it works and the answer was "Its working how it's supposed to." It rang SUCH a bell. See, I am also a Network administrator and a consultant for a Microsoft Certified Gold Partner so I deal with microsoft products all day every day. And so many times when I come across a bug or a problem, the answer from MS is "OH Thats by design!"

Bull.

My problems are not nearly as bad as some of the people in here. I saw in a post above some kid won 51 games and won 50 of them and stayed the same rank. Now not only is that just plain unfair and stupid to him, but its COMPLETELY unfair for the lower skilled players that constantly have to face his obvious dominance. I just did the same thing. I just played 19 games in a row as a level 23 in team slayer (the 32 and 21 in my did not level up once either in 19 games).

Not only did we win every game, but I think only one team broke 30, a small handful broke 20 and the rest scored in the teens or even less than 10. At least 4 teams jsut quit due to frustration and lack of options (I felt bad for them - I could knock out a novel on your game balance in matchmaking but thats a different beef). You think kids are having fun when they quit? NO. So dont give me that "its by design" crap. This system is the freakin WINDOWS ME of videogame rankings. Its an absolute gotdamn joke. A JOKE. All the fancy Mu and Stigma equations in the world dont make it good. Don't think that some mathematic smoke and mirrors are going to make your system sound more relevant and effective. IIve seen MS try to pull that with other software stuff; you can confuse some people into submission and acceptance, I dont happen to be one of them. t's flawed, and just plain doesnt work if its purpose os to make the idea gaming environment for players of all skill levels.

You probably wont believe me but I HONESTLY dont care about my level that much. If I did I would have gotten a 50 when the game came out. Im friends with people who did it in the first 2 weeks the game was out. I just dont care that much. I lanned halo CE last night - thats my competitive gaming fix, this is just to pass time. It was going to be worth my time this afternoon to get it up a few levels but I feel like I wasted 3 hours. How can you possibly say a system in which we didn't have any increasing challenge at all, the kids we were playing didnt have fun AT ALL and I finished a 3 hour streak of halo 3, after having WON - pissed and frustrated? How is that justified.

"By design" ...yea I bet. I dont even know why Im surprised - I deal with stupid MS products at work all day, use crappy windows CE on my smart phone, play a frustrating game with a bad ranking system made by a MS studio on my MS console - ALL of which have a ton of problems. This was just the last straw this afternoon tho. These poor kids had to play us 20 times in row. They were quitting, we were set up with snipe, BR and rocks, playing like most good tems do. No one was having fun, wheres the adrenaline when its 45-14? OOOooHh whos gonna win??? How many more teams do we have to 50-15 before Trueskill decides to let them have a break and give us a bit more of a challenge? Such utter crap. Explain away Bungie - tell me to play with a different party, give me all the same advice you give to the kids on here that FIEND for a level 50, a symbol, a recon helmet and a katana on their damn back. I dont give a damn.

Doesnt matter what you tell me - it's broken. No explanation you could give me after winning 19 games and staying a 23 will be sufficient.. It wasnt fun for any one of the 160 individuals involved in my halo 3-based afternoon with absolutely NO indication that we would EVER have a different experience with that group of people playing. No increase in rank for us and no fun for the legit 20-30 level players AND no progress at all in 3 hours? That means Trueskill failed.

I eagerly await your response to my complaint. Hell you may even agree with me and be forced to give me some standard reply seeing as you have no control in the matter. This is one qualified adult telling another qualified adult that your system is not working properly. Take it for what it is.

Regards..
cT

  • 01.12.2008 5:04 PM PDT

Posted by: chaostheory101
Doesnt matter what you tell me - it's broken. No explanation you could give me after winning 19 games and staying a 23 will be sufficient.. It wasnt fun for any one of the 160 individuals involved in my halo 3-based afternoon with absolutely NO indication that we would EVER have a different experience with that group of people playing. No increase in rank for us and no fun for the legit 20-30 level players AND no progress at all in 3 hours? That means Trueskill failed.
I am not sure if you want a response or not but the fact of the matter is if you play in a mixed skill party like you did, you will go up very slowly or not at all. Initially it was a 21,23 & 32 in your party and then you added in another later on who was a 1. It doesn't really matter to me if you think it is broke, garbage or just another buggy MS product. On just about every page is someone stating the same thing you did and on just about every page is the same explanation I just gave you.

You're probably not going to get a response from Bungie as they have responded to this before. I and others are only here to explain why, explain how and help if we can. This issue you ran in to is something Bungie has classified as a anti-boosting measure that is too aggressive. They said they are looking in to it. Nothing more has been said by them.

The person who stated they played 51 games and won 50 and didn't go up was exaggerating. Have a look at his games and see for yourself. Many of the people make claims like this and it is simply false. Others run in to the other known issue where if they only play with the same teammates and never anyone else, they get stuck at around 15 in TS.

Until these two issues are fixed, you are going to have to work around them if you want to go up quickly. Seeing as you are in the computer field, you should be familiar with workarounds until a more permanent solution can be found for the problem.

  • 01.12.2008 6:55 PM PDT
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i saw this very explination on xbox.com

  • 01.12.2008 7:44 PM PDT