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  • Subject: In depth explanation of the Halo 3 skill ranking system.
Subject: In depth explanation of the Halo 3 skill ranking system.
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i think thatr the bungie people need to take a look at how this trueskill works and fix it or make a new type of trueskill system.

  • 01.15.2008 5:28 PM PDT


I think all this complaining about the skill system is unwarranted. I am currently a level 41 in Lone Wolves and that is where I belong. I consistently finish 2-5 and I am happy knowing that I am better than 80% of the people who play Halo 3. When I play in a higher level match I finish lower and in a lower level match I finish higher. It just pains me to watch so many people complain about a revolutionary game that allows us to follow every stat we have ever had since 2004, hats off to an industry pioneer. I just wake up everyday and pray that my 360 does not flash the "red rings of death." Everything after that is time well spent. Thanks Bungie for the memories,

28,000 kills
23,000 deaths
5 girlfriends
2 xbox's
1 Halo

You do relise that this is not the case for everyone, correct? Read through the pages or my example on page 35. Trust me, just because it works for you doesn't mean it works for everyone. I am not trying to be mean, I am just saying. I am usually not one to complain, but at times, this "system" is ridiculous.

[Edited on 01.15.2008 7:24 PM PST]

  • 01.15.2008 7:24 PM PDT
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recently it's been broken, I hope it's fixed soon because my team slayer level froze at 24.

  • 01.15.2008 11:49 PM PDT

Aut viam inveniam aut faciam!


Obviously it is a kinda complex formula that determins rank, but it is pretty frustrating at times.

Also, now that H3 has been out for a while a LOT of high-ranked guys are starting new accounts (I know a general who does this regularily)... what that means is us poor dudes who are only average players (and don't restart accounts), start to get paired up with guys who obviously are having fun shredding n00bs. :sadface:



AND, what about high-ranking players who start a new playlist? I like team doubles(one of my favorite playlists), but I notice a lot of Colonels/Commanders etc who have a high rank in team slayer or some other playlist and jump into team doubles starting at rank 1?... Obviously they wipe the map with my corpse, yet I rank down because they have a low rank in that playlist only?!? wtf?

...Bungie should (take note Bungie programmers! lol) average their HIGHEST rank with the rank of whatever playlist they happen to be playing, to make it a little more fair for the average players... for example, a General with a highest rank of 50 starts team doubles at rank 1... why not average the ranks and let whoever is unfortuate enough to be playing him be considered to be playing a guy at rank 25? ;) ...Jus sayin....




  • 01.16.2008 12:33 AM PDT

Matchmaking makes 0 centz how i have played at least 70 games of double team won every one of them 100% i have no loses on my account and only be a level 33, look for urself " I MUNCH I v2" . Me and a buddy of mines made new accounts and play double team together every game but we cant level up at all and were undefeated.

  • 01.16.2008 1:25 AM PDT

Posted by: _Akira
Thanks for looking at everything, but regardless, the system needs some serious work. Im wondering about the chances Bungie will issue a patch for the game that could essentially fix all these bugs. And on the matter of leveling with a team slower... thats just counter-productive to the game, as one of XBL's biggest ads is to play with your friends online, then you penalize them for it, just irritating. Its not just them either, i was stuck at 40 for a while then played with other people and sure enough shot up to 45. It takes away from teamwork when your forced to play alone cause u wont skill up. I'm just frustrated with the whole system, and im mad they changed it from the H2 system, while not improving it. Change for changes sake doesnt make the result good or better than what was before.

P.s. Thanks Jay for trying to aleviate everyone's concerns with the ranking system, and sorry if i vented on you any, for a game that took so long to make Im just upset they couldn't put it out without all these problems. Your the only one willing to discuss it, while bungie is no where to be found.
Well, it seems they improved some aspects of the H2 system but also created other complications that system did not have. One good thing is all this is data is stored and calculated on the back end (Live servers). If there is a change or adjustment made, it won't require a patch to the game itself.

A lot of people confuse my attempts at explaining things with me some how justifying it's faults. I am not saying you did this but a lot of people seem to. I know it has some issues and I am only trying to explain why it is doing it. I try not to sound like "Here is how it works and it's the greatest thing in the world and you must be dumb to not like it!" because that is not how I feel about it. Some parts about it are good and some are broken - no doubt. Anyway, heated discussions and debates are fine with me. It's how my friends and I "discuss" things and even though we may get pissed, we are still friends at the end of the day (although one or two of us may have some bruises). I don't take things personally, especially when I can understand the frustration people have with it.

  • 01.16.2008 6:50 AM PDT

Thanks for posting I was wondering why I lvl up so slowly.

  • 01.16.2008 4:23 PM PDT
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Right now I am thinking about returning my halo 3 copy cuz the ranking system pisses me off.

  • 01.16.2008 7:21 PM PDT
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Very well written post. I finally understand the ranking system now.

  • 01.16.2008 7:57 PM PDT

Thank you for the explanation. And thank you to those who have posted their examples. We could all go on for another 36 pages, (and we probably will) speculating whether the system is working as it was designed, and posting statistics that help us vent our frustration over not ranking up when it seems logical that we should.

But one thing is clear: whether or not the Halo 3 skill ranking system is functioning as it was intended to, lots of gamers are unhappy with it, confused by it, and frustrated by it. In my opinion, it's the only flaw in an otherwise perfect gaming experience.

So Bungie, if you're listening, who is the system for? If it's for the gamers, many of us are very confused and frustrated by it. I appreciate that it may have complex algorithms built into it to make it difficult for people to 'work the system' or abuse it. But c'mon, it's too often that I finally feel like I'm on a winning streak and I see no measurable reward for my efforts.

  • 01.16.2008 8:46 PM PDT
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Ok simple question

Why is TS so much easier than Doubles to rank up?

I've won 17 in a row, 19 of my last 20 today, and I haven't ranked up once.

I'm not boosting or anything! I don't get it...

my friends get up levels so easily in TS. I refuse to play it because I actually want to get better, and I think doubles is the way to do that.

  • 01.16.2008 9:10 PM PDT
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Posted by: Matt Wad
Ok simple question

Why is TS so much easier than Doubles to rank up?

I've won 17 in a row, 19 of my last 20 today, and I haven't ranked up once.

I'm not boosting or anything! I don't get it...

my friends get up levels so easily in TS. I refuse to play it because I actually want to get better, and I think doubles is the way to do that.


It shouldn't be easier. Most likely your games played are much higher in Team Slayer.

  • 01.16.2008 11:41 PM PDT
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why is it that when you win a game and you level up, then the next game you have to win in order to keep the new level that you have just gotten...so basically you have to win one more after you level up to secure that level...sooo stupid

  • 01.17.2008 3:08 AM PDT

Posted by: CapoStatus 619
why is it that when you win a game and you level up, then the next game you have to win in order to keep the new level that you have just gotten...so basically you have to win one more after you level up to secure that level...sooo stupid
I understand what you're saying but think about it. Why do you have to win to keep your level is what you are asking. From what I have seen, if you have played a lot of games and finally get the next skill level, you are barely up there. If you lose the next game, you may go down. If you then win, you may go right back up. It's not really like you can get to the next level and then "relax" and lose a few and keep it, it doesn't work that way.

  • 01.17.2008 5:20 AM PDT
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I think there are still some factors that we haven't figured out yet. Looking at your information, it doesn't explain why I didn't rank up once after winning 16 games in a row. Maybe you can go more in depth about rankings when in a team. Great thread, and many kudos to you.

  • 01.17.2008 2:55 PM PDT
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hi my gamertag is yuriyturf i am willing to pay u 1,600 points (microsoft points) if u help me get my 45 in any playlist i am a 44 in lone wolves rite now and i cant get da 45 im not bad and i listen if ur intrested contact me at my email at mossfan@sbcglobal.net or my gamertag once again yuriyturf

  • 01.17.2008 7:11 PM PDT

"Omg. Where did they get the idea to not use army guys? Are they taking drugs?" --Tim Schafer on originality in videogames

Posted by: Jay120171
I totally agree that playing with randoms seems to allow players to level up quicker. The more different people you play obviously allows the system to judge your individual performance faster/better.
Right. Buried in the TrueSkill Documentation is this page on Team Play.

It seems to say that a team that consistently only plays with each other in a playlist levels up slower than a team that plays with different people at different times even if the second team is less consistent in terms of wins, because the first team would have a greater uncertainty.

If both you and your friend only play ranked team games together then the TrueSkill ranking system cannot distinguish between you two; it always compares the team's skills (sums of the player's skills in the teams) and 'distributes' the gain/loss proportional to the individual player's uncertainties (see detailed description). Obviously, it is difficult to update individual players' skills from team results only. [...] If you always combine the same pair of objects, the only information you can get is which pair of objects is heavier. But if you recombine the players into different pairs you can find out about their individual skills. As a consequence, the TrueSkill ranking system will be able to find out about individual players' skills from team outcomes given that players not only play in one and the same team all the time but in varying team combinations.
I appreciate the difficulty in calculating the individual skill of a player from wins alone if he always plays with the same teammates, but the end result hurts everyone. Take a hypothetical team of 4 that always plays with each other and has a high (say, 80%) win rate. They will be winning consistently, but since they aren't playing with other players, their skill has a higher uncertainty, so they level up slower. They are punished by remaining at a low level for much longer than their "true" skill would imply (as opposed to TrueSkill), while their opponents are punished by being forced to play such a miscategorized team for much longer than they should.

It doesn't quite say how strong this random party effect is. I'd guess that a significant number of Halo players, when it comes to competitive ranked games, like playing with a small group of the same people over many games. Granted, it likely isn't as exaggerated as my above example, but it's still something to think about. It might even account for why people are reporting hitting a brick wall in team doubles, a playlist where you only have one teammate, who is more likely to remain constant over many games.

  • 01.17.2008 10:30 PM PDT

Posted by: Realnoyb
I appreciate the difficulty in calculating the individual skill of a player from wins alone if he always plays with the same teammates, but the end result hurts everyone. Take a hypothetical team of 4 that always plays with each other and has a high (say, 80%) win rate. They will be winning consistently, but since they aren't playing with other players, their skill has a higher uncertainty, so they level up slower. They are punished by remaining at a low level for much longer than their "true" skill would imply (as opposed to TrueSkill), while their opponents are punished by being forced to play such a miscategorized team for much longer than they should.

It doesn't quite say how strong this random party effect is. I'd guess that a significant number of Halo players, when it comes to competitive ranked games, like playing with a small group of the same people over many games. Granted, it likely isn't as exaggerated as my above example, but it's still something to think about. It might even account for why people are reporting hitting a brick wall in team doubles, a playlist where you only have one teammate, who is more likely to remain constant over many games.
Here is the thing though. That "hypothetical" team of 4 actually exists. There is a team of 4 who only play together, won 145 in a row last time I counted, and are stuck at 15. I would consider this an extreme example but they brought the issue to our attention and it has gone a long way to explaining why people get stuck.

There have been a few discussions in the last few months in the Optimatch forum about this flaw. H3 encourages players to party up and makes it easy so it is safe to assume a lot of players play together. The part I (we) are unsure of is whether playing in parties drastically slows your progression. In other words not just the same 4 guys all the time but constantly playing in parties and never playing with randoms. Oh, and yes, TD is the same way. If you play with the same partner all the time, it will make your progression very slow or not at all and it is far more likely when you only have a team of 2.

  • 01.18.2008 5:59 AM PDT
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I'm glad this forum topic is up and the debate is lively. I'm tired of playing Team Slayer and getting Steak Dinners consistently with friends, yet not leveling up; then I switch to a different playlist and get destroyed by Generals with low levels in the playlist. Bungie can easily make the Halo 3 matchmaking system better without needing to collect more data.

Complaint 1: Slower leveling up when a player plays with the same group of friends.
Solution 1: Simple experience formula that dictates leveling up without penalizing people for playing with the same group of friends, (similar to Halo 2's system.)
Who benefits from Solution 1? EVERYONE
If the solution is put into effect, a team of four that has 145 consecutive wins gains the levels they CLEARLY deserve.
The poor players who get destroyed by that Good team don't have to fear playing them anymore.

I know Bungie was trying to prevent players from "free-riding" on the skills of their friends who are better at Halo, but Good teams and Bad Teams alike are hurt by this system.
Good Teams get bored by easy wins, Bad Teams get discouraged by crushing losses. I'm 100% sure that the level 15 players that have lost to the Good team of 145 consecutive wins would have no problems with their opponents leveling up faster.

Complaint 2: Generals with Level 50's in Team Slayer, Lone Wolves, Team Objective, etc. play against low leveled people in other playlists when they first start.
Solution 2: The lowest level a person has in any playlist is equal to half of his highest level.
Who benefits? EVERYONE
The people who are truly level 5, in skill and in level, play against relatively unskilled players (more equal games = more fun).
The people who are level 50 in one playlist play against level 25's in other playlists, meaning the games aren't complete blow-outs that last less than a minute. At the same time, the level 50's in one playlist aren't up against level 50's in the second playlist immediately.

Can anyone seriously say that a person with a level 50 in Team Slayer, who is also a General with 1500 games under his belt, is equivalent to a level 1 in Team Objective just because the General has never played Team Objective before?

Sorry to vent, but I'm just a little disappointed. Bungie did a truly great job in eliminating my primary complaint about Halo 2 (Modding/Standbying). Bungie also was extremely creative in coming up with their Game Video Playback system and threw in something new with the addition of Items. Unfortunately, they messed up Matchmaking. I like Halo 3 a lot, and I have only been standby-ed maybe once or twice over the course of 400+ games in Halo 3 (Less than 0.5% of the time, not bad at all), but the matchmaking issues are wearing down the game's long-term appeal.

  • 01.18.2008 8:04 PM PDT

Bungie needs to adopt their own ranking system. It needs to be fair through all players. It is safe to say the system is not fair because for some people leveling is easy but for others it is hard to go up just one. All of my freinds that stopped playing Halo is because of the ranking system. Not fair how some can go up in 2 and some can go up in 10+. That right there is so unfair that it needs to be changed. They also need to put the experience bar back to see when you will level or delevel.

  • 01.19.2008 11:40 AM PDT

every other virtual=61

ID=?

Posted by: crocket123
Bungie needs to adopt their own ranking system. It needs to be fair through all players. It is safe to say the system is not fair because for some people leveling is easy but for others it is hard to go up just one. All of my freinds that stopped playing Halo is because of the ranking system. Not fair how some can go up in 2 and some can go up in 10+. That right there is so unfair that it needs to be changed. They also need to put the experience bar back to see when you will level or delevel.
I took a look at the TrueSkill Calculator and reading crocket's idea, mabye a variation on the calculator's slider theme where a person's mu and sigma are shown to them and can be used to make the system as transparent as possible. This could be displayed in game lobbies only to the user and not elsewhere to the general public since the primary purpose would be to give the user feedback on where they are at and encouragement to continue playing by giving them hope.

Do you play tic-tac-toe anymore? Probably not .. if the participant the game feels that there is no reasonable chance of an interesting outcome, they stop playing.

  • 01.19.2008 7:19 PM PDT
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Very good explanation but you miss something. You need to consider if the player has a good connection.
You have certain skill and you play a game. But if you are playing most of the game watching respawning for 3 or 4 minutes you going to lose skill for sure.

  • 01.20.2008 12:34 PM PDT
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some stats that might help... Lone Wolves played from 1/15 to 1/16

Total Games played..... 38 games

Starting level : 26
Current level : 39

1st place... 27 games
2nd place...5 games
3rd place...2 games
4th place...1 game
5th place...1 game
6th place...1 game

What's interesting is that during the first 26 games, I only went from a 26 to a 29. Then at one point I went from a 29 to a 32 after one game and then three games later I jumped from a 32 to a 37...

KmKx420

[Edited on 01.20.2008 5:32 PM PST]

  • 01.20.2008 5:02 PM PDT
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Posted by: rTL SmAcKN HOz
some stats that might help... Lone Wolves played from 1/15 to 1/16

Total Games played..... 38 games

Starting level : 26
Current level : 39

1st place... 27 games
2nd place...5 games
3rd place...2 games
4th place...1 game
5th place...1 game
6th place...1 game

What's interesting is that during the first 26 games, I only went from a 26 to a 29. Then at one point I went from a 29 to a 32 after one game and then three games later I jumped from a 32 to a 37...

KmKx420


Don't read too much into that....a lot of that is probably explained by poor matchmaking quality.

  • 01.20.2008 5:35 PM PDT